UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #325
WINTER, ROBERT W.

WINTER, Robert W. (1924- )
Undergraduate Student; Business Officer of Wisconsin State Universities; Vice President of UW System
At UW: 1950-1985

Interviewed: 1987	
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length: 4 hours
Series: Merger

Functioning of WSU System under Eugene McPhee; Relationship between WSU and old UW; Varying quality of WSU; Appointment as UW System vice president; Responsibilities; UW System staff under presidents John Weaver, Edwin Young and Robert O'Neil; Young and Governor Lee Dreyfus; Allocation of fee income; Problems of UW-Milwaukee; Handling building priorities; Presidents' entertaining; Board of Regents appointments; O'Neil's presidency; Alternatives to catch-up; Lack of strong leadership under Merger.

First Interview Session (November 5, 1987): Digital File (tape 1)
Time	Keywords

00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction [begin Tape 1/Side 1]

00:00:19	Background.  UW-Menasha.  Transferred to Madison for degree in business administration in 1950.  Job with normal school regents.

00:02:03	Description of Eugene McPhee; his background in military governance and skills as educator and politician. His ability to get along with politicians and governors— specifics on his relationship with Kohler and Nelson 

00:07:27	Relationship between McPhee and E. B. Fred and Harrington as “co-conspirators.” Anecdote about Kohler asking McPhee and Fred to increase budgets. A. W. Peterson and Neil Cafferty.  More on Gov. Thompson’s support of higher education and the perception that Democratic governors (Nelson) were more difficult to get along with.

00:14:20	The issue of out-of-state enrollment late in Knowles governorship. Raising of out-of-state tuition, which hurt WSU (which were close to MN) greater than UW.

00:17:06	WSU chancellors relationships with McPhee—he kept an iron hand, but didn’t interfere in their affairs. Also good relationship with faculty.

00:19:11	Instrumental in bringing Lee Dreyfus to Stevens Point as chancellor.  Public perceived him as riding Lee Dreyfus, due to his antics as a showman.  McPhee's reaction to Dreyfus coming to a committee meeting and sitting on the floor.

00:21:40	Existence of faculty governance on pre-merger WSU campuses.

00:23:16	Quality of education at Eau Claire second only to Madison because of its origins as liberal arts school. Opposition to attaching Eau Claire to UW system.

00:26:14	Thoughts on the expansion of UW system before merger.  Poor leadership of UW-Milwaukee to 1972.

00:29:02	[end side 1; begin side 2]	Reaction of WSUs to new UW campuses.  Effect on Oshkosh.  Jim Dan Hill as WSU rep on CCHE supported new campuses.

00:32:23	The expansion a CCHE decision rather than a Regents decision.  UW's enrollment projections too optimistic. 

00:35:14	Extension Merger in 1965, which WSU didn’t like.

00:36:40	Timing of merger unfortunate—Republican regents, Democratic governor.  Lucey did provide excellent salary adjustment program.

00:38:50	Ineffective leadership of UW since merger. 

00:41:45	Reasons for Dreyfus's hostility to Ed Young and Don Smith, due to a regents’ meeting at Parkside at which Young didn’t recognize Dreyfus.

00:44:50	End of First Interview Session

Second Interview Session (November 6, 1987): Digital File (tapes 1-3)
Time	Keywords

00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:27	Why Winter was appointed as vice president rather than Bob Polk.

00:03:27	Friction between Don Percy and Don Smith, due to his relationship with Weaver, Reuben Lorenz, and Winter.

00:05:05	Lorenz's position in old UW compared to Winter’s at WSU. Winter given responsi- bility for personnel because old UW structure weak in those areas.  Lorenz not a budget person, a controller.  Percy had handled budgets.  

00:08:02	Pre-merger state universities’ accounting services independent of one another.

00:09:21	Percy’s decision to slot Winter into the capital budget, which allowed Winter to inherit Wally Lemon.  Lemon and Percy didn’t see eye to eye.

00:11:13	[end tape 1; begin Tape 2] Percy left Winter alone.  WSU and UW personnel and accounting practices not integrated.  

00:13:06	Arnn did budget.  Never traveled outside Madison in contrast to old WSU administrative practices. The importance of keeping contact with campuses, and the effects of going to campuses and not going to campuses.

00:19:37	Effect of Regents’ seeing facilities; effect of building improvements on academic programs.

00:21:56	Lorenz and Winter worked well together.

00:24:15	Winter’s separation from the operation of the other System vice presidents, which he didn’t mind—this because the facilities VP was more involved with the building commission and the Regents. Percy, Smith, Weaver, O’Neil, Young and Shain’s reactions to capital budgets.

00:29:00	Weaver's personality—his ego, (over)-articulateness, and sensitivity but lack of political savvy and administrative ability. His reliance on Don Percy.

00:31:11	Weaver's and Young's mistake in keeping student fees down, instead of seeing cost as quality. How it hurt the System. How McPhee used student fees to make political allies without substituting fees for state money.

00:36:05	Regents influenced by System Administration.

00:37:17	Smith had differences with Percy.  Why Weaver always went to Smith.  How things changed when Don Smith came.

00:39:50	Lemon shifted to collective bargaining issues under O'Neil. [end side 1; begin Side 2] Later did legislative liaison.

00:42:22	Warren Exo not effective as director of capital budget; had to be removed to another area because he didn’t do his job. Lemon actually did the effective work the hospital.

00:45:57	Winter not in favor with Ed Young, who insists that Exo be rehired. Young and Haas.

00:47:32	Lack of fringe benefit program in UW System--lead Winter, Warren Hickman to work on a tax-deferred annuity program working with several associations. But fringe benefits still a problem at Madison today. [break in tape]

00:53:25	Discussing Percy—controversial, assertive. Odd that he and Weaver were so close. When Young came (who was slow to make decisions), Percy’s assertive decision- making style was appealing to Regents.

00:57:23	Irving Shain’s administrative skill. The Ed Young period.

00:59:31	System Administration staff; reliance on Madison campus for some functions. Location of System Administration.

01:02:22	Winter’s reaction to O'Neil appointment. Took budget as his personal issue, though not always effecitively.

01:05:19	Lucey’s creation of the expectation that salaries across the System would be equal. How McPhee shrewdly calculated salaries for old WSU using Madison averages.

01:08:33	[end tape 2; begin Tape 3] More on O'Neil, with whom Winter had no trouble, but to whom no one could get close—very private. Twenty-five people staff meetings generally unproductive. 

01:13:38	Winter met with Shain independently of O’Neil. Shain and Winter worked well together, since his strength was developing what was “saleable.”

01:16:02	Ag College (CALS) strongest entity on campus politically—they understood how System worked. The need for strong deans clear from comparison of Ag School and Medical School.  Winter got money for Madison athletics.

01:20:24	Question about L&S dean Cronon—different from professional schools?

01:21:09	System helped rather than hurt Madison campus, especially in facilities. Winter wrote policy on athletic facilities for Madison campus—much of athletics totally state funded. A list of facilities built at Madison.

01:25:22	Winters attitude toward Madison like McPhee, who never did anything to hurt Madison.  Mutual respect of McPhee and Harrington.

01:28:04	How Madison benefitted from merger—they weren’t asking for things they could have gotten through the state budget. Madison staff weren’t as good as WSU at developing projects.

01:33:55	Easy to bring building projects in under Shain.  Were well planned.

01:36:01	End of Second Interview Session

Third Interview Session (November 25, 1987): Digital File (tapes 3-5)
Time	Keywords

00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction [begin Tape 3/Side 2]

00:01:17	Trouble System had because Young would not make decisions, opening the door for Percy to step in.  Example of UW Hospital under Cook.  

00:03:39	Young’s tendency to make decisions by consensus. Young's mistake in not raising fees.  Resident students fees are small, and financial aid exists to help poor students.  The advantage of raising fees at end of budget process, as McPhee did, lest legislature reduce university budgest.  Shaw does not seem to understand this.  Staff may not know.  Lemon would know about this but not involved in budget process.

00:07:38	Question about allocation of funds for Madison by System, which Winter did not think happened. Madison very aware of money they were generating. When Young was president, he would without regent's knowledge or staff knowledge allocated unallocated money to Madison and Milwaukee—$500,000 to each.

00:09:55	More on the allocation of Madison funds to System campuses. Winter thought	Percy instrumental in allocating the money generated.  In facilities matters, Madison got more for repairs because buildings were older.  Could have gotten more if had Home Economics dean pushed harder for it.  Madison might wait if thought a project not well planned.  An engineering school project that wasn't well thought out; same of a business school project. 

00:13:28	Question about O'Neil Year 2000 plan for Milwaukee. Winter thought it “out, too much”—he was trying to help Milwaukee.  Winter not impressed with Horton, using the geological sciences project as an example of poorly conceived project, part of 2000 plan. Winter doesn't think Wisconsin can support a second institution like Madison—rather than be like Madison, Milwaukee should nurture its own strengths.

00:16:45	Quality of students in Milwaukee lower than Madison, partly because it is hard for UW-M to recruit, having never established itself.  O’Neil a strong advocate for UW-M, bringing in Horton. Werner Baum before Horton a Weaver appointee, but not as effective, not as astute an administrator. 

00:20:51	More on UW-M, about Horton’s chancellorship. He was better than Baum, but Winter judged chancellors by people surrounds himself with. Winter couldn't stand the obnoxious person he dealt with at UW-M. Horton not liked by fellow chancellors, like little kid when he didn’t get his way.

00:23:44	Shain on the other hand had good people, and thus got their fair share. Discussions of building priority lists.  

00:25:00	Question about how legislature prioritized campuses; how the Building Commission works.  Governor is key person, makes recommendations.  RW dealt with Earl on physical education projects.  Real problem. People looked down on.  RW thinks students would have been glad to finance with fees. [break in recording]

00:28:04	Question about Composite Support Index, which was Percy's and Cammack's invention.  

00:29:09	[end of tape 3; begin tape 4] Chancellors wives. Weaver entertained a lot and was longwinded. When president moved to Brittingham House, System more involved—hiring staff etc.—though Madison still did a lot.  Liked Karen O'Neil.  Socially effective.  Young’s not very social.  Not many gatherings.  

00:31:37	Regents would have preferred being downtown after meetings politicking than at O'Neils' social gatherings.  Winter went until wife couldn't stand it.  Always same people.  He found it boring.  With them all day.  Friend of Karen's who worked in System office.  Shaw's wife got curtains for his office.  They still have Thursday night gatherings.  Bobby Knowles and Ody Fish went to their hotel and played cards.

00:35:36	More on presidents’ wives, which RW hasn't observed have any impact.  Thinks Madison chancellor should have been allowed to entertain regents once a year.

00:38:17	Winter always made a point of getting the chancellors involved at regents' meetings.  Shain spoke more than others.  Very effective.

00:39:28	[end tape 4; begin tape 5]	Minor question about collection of accounts. Appointment of academic vice president under Young.

00:40:45	Why Ed Young left, partly due to conflict with Dreyfus. Winter reviewed how Grover and RW only people welcome downtown under Dreyfus.  Similar to Weaver’s relationship with Democratic governors, Lucey, who appointed regents who opposed Weaver. Ed Young a compromise candidate for replacement for Weaver, since many outstanding candidates refused because of Regents situation.  

00:45:33	More on Regents turmoil, which settled down under O'Neil, who provided effective leadership until faculty salary issue. O'Neil articulate but not outstanding president.

00:47:27	More on loggerheads on Regents, split between Lucey and Dreyfus appointees.  Dreyfus appointees better—RW gives examples. Schilling young, conservative, but not much impact.  Good regent has political impact.  O'Harrow outstanding.  Good background.  DeBardeleben not effective because people didn't like him.  Nikolay good.

00:52:01	Strong if silent support for Madison in regents.  Weakness in some schools.  Improvement in fringe benefits that Winter suggested and Young got implemented.

00:55:10	How dissension affected board.  Had little influence on Lucey.  Operating budget suffered.  Discusses fees again.  Regents followed president's leadership.

00:58:47	[break in recording] Administrators' salaries.

01:00:23	Winter a personal friend of Grover.  Helped his career. Grover knew that Young and Smith were personae non grata with Dreyfus.  Young couldn't be effective president in circumstances.  Had to be a change.  RW surprised when Dreyfus hired Percy. Comments on Percy.

01:02:54	Myth that Madison shortchanged, though UW-Milwaukee split support because pushed so hard, organized by Horton.  Baum couldn't do it.  Too conservative; no relations with Milwaukee delegation.

01:04:00	O'Neil's style.  Stature slipped gradually.  Unorthodox style of administration.  Wanted get involved in little things that went on in legislative process.  Met with legislators.  Not effective even though intelligent.  Typed own letters. 

01:06:12	Got involved in Madison affairs more than he should have.  Went to Senate meetings.  Would speak up.  Shouldn't.  Met every week with Shain for several hours.  Winter made point of always going to Shain's office.

01:08:48	O'Neil more concerned about Madison than other campuses. Story that he thought he came to be Madison head.  

01:10:06	[end tape 4; begin Tape 5] Staff makes presidency.  Kauffman good to deal with.  Not as effective as Smith.  Under Weaver, Percy dominated.  Would get involved in Smith's affairs.

01:11:47	Policy group meetings.  30 or 40 people.  Shaw  doesn't meet with them.  Meets only with vice presidents.  O'Neil not an effective administrator.

01:13:27	Leonard Haas—RW considered him the best higher education administrator with whom he worked. 

01:16:14	O'Neil's appointments not always good.  Replacement at Eau Claire not a success.  Winter questioned O'Neil's handling of it.  Horton another example.  Stirred things up at UW-Milwaukee but didn't hire good staff.

01:18:41	O’Neil’s and Weaver’s longwindedness at Regents’ meetings. A secretarial appointment in the Board of Regents' Office. DeBardeleben quashed effort to hire her as Board secretary.

01:22:17	Question about atmosphere in System office during catchup.  Wally Lemon not listened to at all, but good source for early history.  O'Neil relied on him in early years.  Later Elwin Cammack.  Chancellors very upset.  Field at UW-River Falls  effective behind the scenes.  UW-Eau Claire chancellor strong.  RW thinks the System played with figures.  Lemon said Madison ranks as high in financial support now as it did before merger.  Has actually improved.  WSUs not as strong as before merger.  Had stronger political base then.

01:27:54	You can't fire chancellors.  Shaw has gotten some out.  (Not Shain, he left on his own accord.)  Staff people say he's good to work under.  Could be honeymoon effect.  Some people dissatisfied.  He doesn't involve as many people in decisions.

01:29:58	RW thinks legislature is proud of UW.  UW rolls along like a freight train—keeps going in spite of weak administrators.  RW didn't buy argument that Madison would suffer without catchup.  Madison has had very effective leadership.  System should have raised fees to get funds for salaries.

01:34:43	Madison doesn't distinguish as much between faculty as some institutions in System do.

01:36:36	Summing up—dominant people since 1950.  Fred, Harrington, Shain, McPhee, Haas.

01:39:23	End of Third Interview Session

End of Oral History #325