UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #369
ZOLOTOW, MAURICE

ZOLOTOW, Maurice (1913-1991)
Undergraduate Student
At UW: 1931-1936

Interviewed: 1983	
Interviewer: Mailed questionnaire
Length: 1 hour, 36 minutes

Research of Abe Maslow and Harry Harlow; Bohemian movement; American Mercury; Media during 1960s; Delmore Schwartz; European and American writers; English Department; Professors and students; His column "Fair is Foul" in Daily Cardinal; Gertrude Stein; Oxford Peace Movement; Hayward House and radicals; Wisconsin's socialist movement; UW School of Journalism; Cardinal staffers; Experimental College; Octopus and Rocking Horse; Greek system; Arden House; Residence halls; Trysting places; Radio; Music and Paul Bunyan rooms in Memorial Union; Prohibition, speakeasies, alcohol, cigarettes and drugs; Jail; Demonstrations and protest rallies; Friendships; Jazz; His writing and prizes; Faculty members' politics; Concept of mutual respect; Classes; Senior thesis; Movies; Censured books; Gambling; UW administration; Legislative investigations; Depression.

First Interview Session (1983): 
Tape 1/Side 1
Time	Keywords

00:00:00	Interviewee’s introduction. 

00:00:17	During his freshman year (1931-32), MZ met Abe Maslow.  Maslow lived in Hayward House, became a psychologist, was in the human awareness/consciousness movement in California.  Later, Maslow worked with the Menlo Park Institute at Stanford.

00:01:29	MZ met Maslow when Maslow was working on master's degree in psychology.  Maslow was doing research work for Professor Harlow Schapley (MZ corrects name later: Harry Harlow).  Harlow established the importance of physical contact between mother and infant monkeys; Schapley's research included the use of wire and cloth monkey substitutes.

00:03:02	Maslow a Bohemian; American Mercury; personal freedom and breaking bonds; no government involvement, no grants, no media focus.

00:04:56	MZ's daughter was a hippie; Jerry Rubin, Abbie Hoffman were media-conscious.

00:05:28	Delmore Schwartz a poet and writer; James Atlas wrote a biography of Schwartz (published by Brown).  MZ friends with Delmore Schwartz who introduced him to European and American poets, Ezra Pound, T. S. Eliot, James Joyce (Ulysses, Dubliners).

00:06:50	Except for Ethel Thornbrait, the English faculty out of touch with the Imagist Movement.

00:08:02	MZ had sense of personal discovery regarding literature.  Current professors and students.

00:08:46	MZ graduated before WWII.

00:09:05	Abe Maslow and his writings, now dead.

00:09:24	Cardinal: From 1934-36, MZ wrote "Fair is Foul" column, twice a week, reflected daily campus life.  He covered Gertrude Stein's lecture in Madison.  Capitol Times, State Journal, alumni magazine.

00:10:24	MZ covered Oxford Peace movement in his column between 1934-36.

00:11:22	Hayward House began in 1931, radicals lived there.  It was located around University Avenue toward Randall Stadium; a two-story frame house.  There were no house rules, fun, Communist Party.

00:12:20	1931:  National Student League of which MZ was a founding member in Madison, it was a Communist Party front organization, Stalinist/Marxist orientation.

00:12:47	Young People's Socialist League--still active.  Wisconsin had strong socialist movement.  Before WWI Milwaukee had a socialist mayor.  Wisconsin had socialist congressmen.

00:13:41	Victor Berger, a Wisconsin congressman, was socialist.

00:14:12	Wisconsin Pacifist Movement and Progressive Movement.  Hayward House: Aristocratic Bohemians and political leftists, both men and women; there was no animosity towards Hayward House, it existed for two years.  MZ didn't live there.

00:15:23	Cardinal: Before WWII and before the 1960's it operated as a real newspaper.

00:16:09	UW School of Journalism, Columbia School of Journalism, and University of Missouri School of Journalism were the top journalism schools.

00:16:58	MZ admired Ernest Hemingway and John Reed.

00:17:50	Cardinal covered all aspects of student life which is a difference between the 1930`s Cardinal and the late 1960's Cardinal.  The later Cardinal was more like the underground paper Phoenix of Boston than the New York Times.

00:19:06	Howard Teichman, Cardinal staffer, was later a playwright and wrote biographies of George S. Kauffman and Alexander Wilker.  Robert Shaplain, Cardinal staffer, was a Far East correspondent for the New Yorker; Daniel Lang (now dead) also a staff writer for the New Yorker--he was the first general interest writer to cover atomic energy.

00:20:35	Experimental College.  Hayward House was one of a number of boarding houses, both men and women lived there; Sydney Brenner, psychotherapist, address; Amerom Katz, physicist, phone number; Hayward House lasted two to three years; it was similar to Utopian colonies of the nineteenth and early twentieth century and hippie communes of the 1960's.

00:22:33	Student publications: From humor monthly Octopus came professional playwrights, lyricists.  Cardinal a terrific paper, five times weekly, students not as limited, MZ worked on Cardinal his freshman year; Cardinal organized like a "real" city newspaper; Robert Shaplain was the Cardinal's sports writer; Daniel Lang, Teichman (friend of MZ's) (a Henry Fonda collaboration with Teichman).

00:24:52	Cardinal attracted students who wanted careers in journalism; Vincent Shehan's books were best sellers; John Gunther covered Civil War in Spain; journalism considered romantic, Bohemian; Mercury article; "flavor of freedom", even in Greek system, a willingness to think about/discuss any idea.

00:26:08	MZ's column was unconventional for a leftist student newspaper. 

00:26:48	Clarification: Mentioned at beginning of interview was a man named Harlow Schapley, actual name is Harry Harlow; Abraham L. Maslow; Delmore Schwartz--avant garde, a poetic Bohemian.  Delmore Schwartz's biography written by James Atlas, published by Little Brown.

00:28:08	English Department had residence house for women, Arden House, which served lunch and dinner; sponsored a group called "The Arden Club", met once a week, attracted men and women who wanted to be poets, faculty advisor (a graduate student) would read the students poetry; students were ahead of faculty in area of modern literature.

00:29:03	1935-36: students talking about and reading W. H. Arden, C. J. Lewis, Steven Spender.

00:29:26	Political Bohemians, definition of Bohemia.

00:29:46	Experimental College; Irving Fraund lived there, current address.

00:30:19	Bert Spira, psychotherapist, now retired.

00:30:42	MZ involved with The Rocking Horse, a student publication. Don Hiancarlo later became Republican senator for California.

00:31:19	Relationship between graduate students (assistant instructors) and undergraduates, also between graduates and full professors.

00:31:47	Samuel Rogers, French professor, made a great impression on MZ; Rogers won a prize from the Atlantic for his novel Dusk at the Grove.

00:32:16	Helen C. White an inspiration and a friend to MZ; White's novels.

00:32:27	Teachers were like gurus; a master and disciples relationship with students.

00:33:00	Charlotte, whom MZ married, became a writer. Professors and students no longer friends.

00:33:33	Professor Harlow was friends with Abe Maslow, not remote.

00:33:52	Max Otto was an influential philosophy professor, taught a "Man and Nature" course. William Ellery Leonard.

00:34:12	Atmosphere of writers, thinkers; a give and take.

00:34:30	Experimental College: MZ not a student of Experimental College, he was a freshman in 1931-32 when Experimental College was winding down its last year; Experimental College was a two year program.  Adams Hall was still occupied by some Experimental College students.

00:35:00	Fable House, where MZ lived, had some Experimental College students living there.  At meal time, each house sat at own table in dining hall.

00:36:00	Strict visiting hours, curfews at women's dorms.  Men's dorms didn't have curfews but only allowed female visitors on Sundays.

00:36:37	MZ thought Experimental College students a lazy bunch:  turned MZ against progressive education.

00:37:40	Alexander Meiklejohn--brilliant.  Walter Agard--remarkable; MZ took third year Greek with Agard.

00:37:58	Idea of Experimental College was to study Greek civilization for one year, then American civilization for one year and then self-chosen studies, very free.  Difficult to use freedom properly.

00:38:34	MZ only knew one person who actually could read Greek, all other Experimental College students read in translation.

00:39:08	Music Room.  Alexander Meiklejohn, Glenn Frank.  The whole university had feeling of freedom--unique among universities, even among schools in 1960's like Berkeley; inner exploration.

00:40:13	Sexual revolution of the 1960's confined male/female discussion to sex.  Arden Club; Lake Road and Observatory Hill were trysting places.

00:40:58	In the 1930's, students didn't have cars at UW.  MZ knew one student who had access to a car because he was dating a woman (from a Ringling Circus family in Baraboo) who had a car.  For rare formal dates, MZ would rent a car.  Walter Brecher owned the only privately-owned radio in Fable Hall; he was in the Experimental College.  Brecher now owns movie theaters in New York which show foreign films.

00:42:01	During the 1930's, the campus was not crowded; there were less buildings, cars, parking lots; very uncluttered, quiet.

00:43:23	Music Room, a corner room in Memorial Union, had a phonograph and records.  Romantic nineteenth century symphonies were most frequently listened to, very little baroque music.  Music Room was a place to talk; topics of conversation varied:  National Students League, Progressive Party, LaFollette Club, Prohibition, speakeasies.  

00:46:10	Regent Street speakeasies were favorite hangouts with Bohemians and even fraternity people; Lohmarer, State Street; small amounts of ether put into near beer, alcohol added to beer.  The speakeasies on State Street were "wide open", but the Regent Street speakeasies were in basements of private homes.

00:47:23	End of side.

Tape 1/Side 2

00:47:37	Freshman year MZ got drunk with friends on Regent Street started singing "The International" and was picked up by police along with Sidney Brunner and Jim Loveman (who was killed in Spanish Civil War); Delmore Schwartz got Bert Spira to bail MZ out of jail.  MZ was portrayed as a hero on the front page of the Cardinal.

00:49:23	MZ's second arrest his freshman year was when Communist leader Elmer Leuchterhand came to Madison.  Leuchterhand was arrested at a large demonstration and sent to Mendota Institution.  This was the first time that insanity was used as a political weapon in arresting an individual.  Either the Nation or New Republic wrote an article about Leuchterhand's arrest on insanity charges.

00:50:34	The concept of political dissenters being insane was used against General Walker, a right wing reactionary.

0051:05	Thomas Szanz, psychiatrist.

00:51:33	Leuchterhand diagnosed as paranoid.  A demonstration was held to protest the frame-up of Leuchterhand.  MZ was handing out leaflets door-to-door when he was arrested and held overnight in jail the week before final exams.

00:52:43	Paul Bunyan Room, Rathskeller.

00:52:59	Journalism; MZ's curiosity about life; he had a wide spectrum of friendships; jazz--Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington.

00:54:22	Lack of media overkill in 1930's unlike today.

00:55:15	In the 1930's and 1940's it was possible to quietly pursue an interest.  MZ collected jazz records, he had friends who liked T. S. Eliot, jazz, Hart Crane.  Media is a spoiling influence.

00:56:26	Mayday was a labor holiday.  It was the first time to MZ's knowledge that radical students put on a show.  In the morning of Mayday, students met with a workers group in a park and then put on a show at the Union in the evening.

00:57:27	Warren Beatty and Diane Keaton captured the flavor of Mayday in the movie "Reds".

00:58:23	Hayward House was trying to reproduce in Mayday what John Reed and Eugene O'Neill created.  Spontaneous protest rallies held for Mooney and Billings.

00:58:41	MZ wrote Marxist interpretations of O'Neill's plays and submitted them for the Lewis Prize.  The Lewis Prize was a composition prize for freshmen and the Vilas Prize was for seniors (English majors).  MZ won the Vilas Prize as a senior.

00:59:40	T. S. Eliot was the subject of MZ's Vilas Prize composition in 1936.

00:59:49	English Department did become more sympathetic to avant garde poets.

01:00:03	Bohemians had unconventional attitudes towards clothing.  Getting drunk was a form of rebellion.

01:00:33	When MZ saw "Reds", he felt it was about him.  MZ had hoped he could be like John Reed; Greenwich Village existence.

01:01:00	One of MZ's first stories published was in the New York Times Sunday magazine and was about Greenwich Village; article in American Mercury.  MZ had a definite mindset for the Bohemian life.

01:01:28	Very few faculty were involved in left-wing politics; there was only one Communist faculty member in the English Department.

01:02:01	There were many progressives and liberals in the Economics Department and Law School (Lloyd Garrison); New Deal and Roosevelt.

01:02:33	Wilbur Cohen, ultimately became Secretary of Health Education and Welfare, was an Experimental College student.  Cohen has been a professor since he left politics (might be at University of Michigan).

01:03:10	Abraham Maslow and Wilbur Cohen shaped by the feeling of freedom at UW.

01:03:59	Tolerance of deans (men and women) for student opinions.

01:04:36	Concept of mutual respect eroded in 1960's.  MZ appalled by booing of Jean Kirkpatrick, Ernest Sharpley.

01:05:28	MZ's attitude towards classes was that education did not happen in the classroom.

01:05:53	Antipathy towards athletics; Marv Schaplin was a sportswriter (friend of MZ).

01:06:17	MZ almost flunked zoology; the lab experiments were difficult.

01:06:37	Was out of school for a year, went to NYU for a year, and then came back to UW in autumn of 1934--MZ had a total change in approach to school, became interested in his classes.

01:07:03	Reading for Honors was a new program in the English Department for juniors and seniors which MZ took.  His tutor was Ricardo Platonna whom he met with instead of attending a class; MZ worked hard in this program.

01:07:59	Professor Ryan influenced him the most.  MZ took first year Greek from Professor Ladd.  Both made MZ work hard.  Helen C. White; Samuel Rogers; Hira Kira; a professor of philosophy who taught a class on Dewey's "Art as Experience" (MZ can't remember the name).

01:08:51	In general, most of the unconventionals didn't graduate from the UW, many found the transition from the Experimental College to regular college classes impossible to make.

01:09:39	MZ graduated with magna cum laude; that year there were six students who graduated with magna cum laude.

01:09:53	MZ wrote his thesis on Hart Crane's poetry.

01:10:18	Lots of interaction between faculty and students.  One of the few large classes was Professor Otto's "Men and Nature" class in Bascom Hall's main auditorium; math classes were also large.  Most classes had 20-40 students.

01:11:02	Most of the unconventionals finished their undergraduate work elsewhere when Experimental College closed. Leisure time. 

01:11:24	Delmore Schwartz influenced MZ the most. MZ got Schwartz interested in Marx, Freud, politics; Schwartz introduced MZ to T. S. Eliot, Ezra Pound, Wallace Stevens, James Joyce.

01:12:05	MZ didn't listen to the radio; he liked films which most aesthetes (Arden House group: Schwartz, Don Hiancarlo) looked down upon, too "Hollywood".  No Communications Department on campus.

01:12:46	There was WHA's studio radio station but radio was not listened to or talked about much.

01:12:55	"American Tragedy" film with Sylvia Sydney and Philip Solemns which MZ saw his freshman year (later, this film was done with Elizabeth Taylor and Montgomery Cliff). 

01:13:18	Movie theater held a contest to write an essay comparing the movie to the novel; MZ won first prize of ten pairs of movie tickets but he had a difficult time getting people to go with him; most people he knew scorned movies.

01:13:46	Ironic that Delmore Schwartz became a movie critic for New Republic.

01:13:59	Foreign language departments would show foreign films in Bascom Hall.  At that time it was rare for Americans to have access to foreign films (no subtitles).  Movies were a very personal experience, not a mass media experience.

01:14:41	Frank Capra movies became talked about ("It Happened One Night", "Mr. Deans Goes to Town", "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington).

01:15:08	The books that most influenced MZ weren't current books.  The co-op had a section of illegal books (Joyce's Ulysses, Lawrence's Lady Chatterly's Lover, complete) that could be rented for twenty-five cents a day.  MZ and a friend stole the copy of Lady Chatterly's Lover and later sold it to a philosophy professor for $25 in 1932.  Ulysses influenced MZ a great deal.

01:16:39	MZ kept his love a movies a secret as he did with jazz; he liked westerns, gangster pictures, action pictures.  He had two friends on campus who liked jazz.  His senior year he had a turntable.

01:17:35	He smoked cigarettes but pot was hardly known on campus.  MZ first smoked pot after he graduated and was hanging around with jazz musicians (1937 or 38).  Cigarette smoking was a sign of masculinity and sophistication (MZ already smoked before coming to UW).  Drinking alcohol was a form of rebellion during Prohibition; drank at speakeasies.  Mind altering drugs were unknown.  Much later, Aldous Huxley was writing about peyote.  MZ had a sleeping problem his junior year for which he was first prescribed barbiturates (two sleeping pills) at the student clinic.

01:19:40	MZ hitchhiked a great deal, especially to Chicago and Milwaukee.

01:19:59	More drug talk--legal and illegal.  Lots of soon-to-be alcoholics on campus.

01:20:23	Ken W. Purdy was important in MZ's life.  Purdy's sister, Mary Lois, was on the Life Magazine staff later.  Their father had written "On Wisconsin"; Ken had free tuition as a result.  Ken Purdy and MZ were good friends.  Purdy was a brilliant writer, suffered from depression, alcoholism, killed himself.  He epitomized the Bohemian spirit.  Prank with the Carillon bells.

01:21:51	Leisure time: Sex more talked about than done; fears of pregnancy and societal taboos; Bohemian attitude of free love;  MZ wasn't attracted to the women in Bohemian political and radical circles.  

01:23:47	MZ was more attracted to the women among the Bohemian aesthetes and Cardinal.

01:24:19	Big difference between the main student body and the unconventional.  Liberal arts majors were very close in spirit.

01:25:17	MZ loved to gamble.  He learned bridge his freshman year, already played poker before starting UW.  His card playing friends were separate from his esthetic friends.

01:25:55	Gulf between agricultural and engineering students and liberal arts students; agricultural and engineering students were very conventional and right wing.

01:27:15	MZ moved easily from one type of students to another.

01:27:45	He never felt any constraint from the administration towards the Bohemian attitude; he was never called to Dean Sellery's office despite two arrests; scholarship was very important to the faculty but it took second place to teaching.

01:28:52	Legislative investigations; John B. Chapple.

01:29:13	MZ had friends in the fraternities.  Once he borrowed a tuxedo from a fraternity friend to wear to the junior prom (his date was Charlotte, whom he later married).  He wrote columns defending the Greek system--at their best they brought a sense of tradition to the campus, at their worst "Animal House".

01:29:52	MZ didn't see change in student body from arrival in 1931 and his graduation except for the extent that alcohol was legalized, perhaps more interest in films.  The Depression was still on, war clouds on the horizon, peace demonstrations held his senior year (35-36), Oxford Peace Pledge.  MZ wrote a controversial column predicting that those who were in peace demonstrations would fight in war.

01:31:08	By 1936, jazz was more widely listened to--Benny Goodman and swing; he listened to live bands on radio.

01:31:40	Cardinal was the same good newspaper; it didn't change until the 1960's.

01:32:00	The Bohemian movement had roots in the 1920's; The Rocking Horse magazine, avant garde; La Follette family; John R. Cummins, professor; Thorstein Veblen.

01:32:47	Demise of Bohemianism came with prosperity.  Bohemia needs struggle and conflict to thrive; media has taken over the "radical" and "de-radicalized"; many campuses had Bohemian enclaves.

01:35:31	End of interview.

END