UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #653
McDONALD, MARA

McDONALD, Mara (1947- )
Assistant administrator, Genetics department
At UW: 1992-

Interviewed: 	2004	  
Interviewer: 	Madeline Fisher
Length: 	2 hrs, 31 min.
Indexed by: 	Erin Dix

Childhood; Education in psychology and zoology at University of California, Los Angeles; PhD in zoology at University of Florida, Gainesville; Experiences as a woman in science; Research; Fieldwork in Haiti studying birds; Appointment to UW; Postdoctoral positions; Research, teaching and administrative positions at UW; Bird-banding project with the Biology Core Program; Interest in academic staff issues; Reflections on challenges faced during career.

First Interview Session (January 17, 2004): Digital file 

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of interview / Interviewer’s introduction. 

00:00:13	Question: Where and when were you born? Answer: McDonald was born in Frankfurt, Germany in 1947. Her parents had met during WWII. Follow-up: They married in Europe? Answer: Yes. McDonald described her family’s move from Germany to Texas and the accompanying decline in living standards. Her father was killed in a car accident when she was 7 years old.

00:04:30	[no question] McDonald’s mother remarried a few years later. McDonald described fond memories from spending time on the farm owned by her step-father’s family. The family moved to Mexico City for ten months so that McDonald’s parents could study anthropology. Question: Were you in school then? Answer: Yes. McDonald described her schooling in Mexico City. 

00:07:25	[no question] For financial reasons, the family had to move from Mexico City to California. McDonald discussed beginning her education at UCLA. She also discussed some volunteering she did in high school at the [Neurocyte Institute?], making student brain research kits. Through this experience, she learned some histology and electrical theory. Question: Why were you interested in getting involved with this? Answer: McDonald described seeing a program on open heart surgery on television as a child, which spurred her interest in becoming a physician. Her volunteering experience allowed her to become a lab research assistant at the Brain Research Institute at UCLA. McDonald discussed her two and a half years in the position.

00:12:40	Question: So your main interest in science came from wanting to be a doctor? Answer: Yes. Question: What led you to choose Psychology as a major? Answer: McDonald explained that she chose psychology based on her interest in psychobiology and the science of behavior. She found out after declaring that she should have majored in zoology. Question: Why didn’t you declare zoology as your major? Answer: McDonald thought it would have been too hard. 

00:15:11	Question: Are there courses or instructors that stand out in your mind? Answer: McDonald described a botany professor, Mildred Mathias, who had great energy and enthusiasm for the subject. She also discussed Frank Krasne, a psychology professor, who later became her employer and did research with crayfish. She told an anecdote about working with crayfish. She also talked about an “ugly discussion” among psychologists at the time involving RNA molecules and memory.

00:19:54	Question: Any other instructors or courses that were influential? Answer: McDonald gave a few more examples of influential professors. She discussed her reasons for deciding not to become a physician and pursuing biology instead. Question: What was the atmosphere for women like at UCLA? Answer: McDonald discussed her experience essentially being kicked out of graduate school after three years. She realized years later that out of 30 students in the program, only one female student went on to finish. Follow-up: In which department were you enrolled as a graduate student? Answer: Zoology. Follow-up: And you were applying for a teaching assistant position in zoology? Answer: Yes. 

00:24:36	[no question] McDonald discussed being a quiet person, and how that made it difficult for her to seek out a TA-ship. She discussed experiencing further gender discrimination after she had received a TA-ship. She talked about the experiences of her fellow female students at the time and in the years following. She said that she was “naïve about women’s issues” at the time. 

00:28:52	Question: How did the male graduate students treat you? Answer: She talked about a good friend who was a fellow graduate student and went on to work with the Forest Service. She described a situation in which he encouraged her to apply for a position doing a wildlife survey. Her application was initially denied by a lower staff member because she was a woman. When her friend hired her, the Forest Service decided she needed an assistant. She discussed her work on the wildlife survey. Question: What were you doing in the field? Answer: McDonald described their work surveying birds and setting traps for small animals to see what was in the area. 

00:35:56	Question: What were you studying in graduate school? Answer: McDonald was interested in community ecology. She detailed her experiences surveying flora and fauna in the Chaparral. Her research centered on how species packed into communities. She discussed her “emotional problems” and lack of self-confidence that held her back at the time.

00:41:55	Question: Do you want to talk about your trips to Mexico? Answer: McDonald described her trips to Mexico in college in a VW bus, collecting bromeliads and orchids with colleagues. Despite car trouble, she very much enjoyed the experience. She described a second trip she took a few years later with graduate school colleagues, to record the song of three species of inter-specifically territorial birds. 

00:48:13	[no question] McDonald discussed being dismissed from her graduate studies. Her advisor, Martin Cody, was no longer interested in her research. The experience sent her into “a deep depression.” 

00:50:44	Question: After you were dismissed, you did the Forest Service work, and then you moved to Berkeley? Answer: Yes. McDonald moved to Berkeley in 1972, and worked odd jobs while writing up her research. She talked about her conclusions from this research. 

00:53:44	Question: Why did you choose to go to Berkeley? Answer: McDonald thought it was a good fit. It took her three years before she got a research position, in an immunology lab at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. She discussed the research going on there. She talked about a disagreement she had with her supervisor regarding preserving variation in the data. 

00:58:30	[no question] She discussed doing research with the Bevatron. It cost $200,000 per hour to run the Bevatron, and it was only 50% efficient. Question: You were there for about 4 years? Answer: McDonald was at Berkeley from 1975 to 1980. She decided to pursue a master’s degree from the Zoology department, in order to finish her work from UCLA.

01:01:58	[end tape 1; begin tape 2] McDonald discussed why Berkeley and UCLA were good places for studying ecology. She talked about celebrating the first Earth Day in 1970 at UCLA, and feeling that the conservationalist and environmentalist agenda “was going to take over the country.” The mood shifted abruptly with the Kent State massacre. 

01:04:39	[no question] McDonald continued discussing her pursuit of a master’s at Berkeley. She worked with Bob Stewart, a biologist interested in character displacement. She discussed her field work studying two species of kinglets at Point Reyes Peninsula. She went back to the program a few years after graduating and learned how to band birds.  

01:10:02	Question: After you finished your master’s, you decided to pursue a PhD at the University of Florida Gainesville. Why did you make that decision? Answer: McDonald really wanted to continue in evolutionary ecology. She talked about why she was unable to stay as a graduate student at Berkeley. Peter Feinsinger of UF-Gainesville was doing work on community ecology with hummingbirds in Costa Rica and she was hoping to work with him, but it did not work out. 

01:15:41	[no question] She discussed being introduced to conservation biology at UF-Gainesville. She talked about failing exams at Gainesville and being subsequently required to take more courses than she had expected. Question: Was Feinsinger your advisor? Did you have a project? Answer: Feinsinger wanted McDonald to work on breeding birds in Florida, while McDonald wanted to work in the tropics. She decided to switch projects and work on an evolutionary biology systematics project involving birds in Haiti. 

01:22:05	Question: In switching your project, did you stay with Feinsinger or switch to a new advisor? Answer: McDonald ended up switching to a new advisor. She described in detail her project, involving the systematics of palm tanagers. Little was known about the birds at the time. 

01:31:23	End of session

Interview Session 2 (January 24, 2004): Digital file 
Time	Keywords

00:00:00	Start of interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:29	[NOTE: first few minutes of the interview taped over] McDonald talked about interviewing at UW.

00:02:12	[begins in the middle of discussion about Haitian history] McDonald discussed problems in Haiti, including property disputes in a society that is largely based on the clan system and problems encountered by Planned Parenthood.

00:06:10	[no question] McDonald described her time in Haiti doing field work from 1983 to 1985. She had field sites all over the country. She described an experience renting a land rover to reach one of her sites. 

00:09:41	[no question] McDonald discussed the sense of fatalism that pervades Haitian society. She talked about the difficulties of being asked for resources by the locals. She felt that women in Haiti essentially kept the nation from falling into complete starvation. Question: How were you treated as a woman on your own in Haiti? Answer: McDonald thought being white was more significant, in terms of local perceptions of her. She told a story in which a group of Haitians threatened her, illustrating the fear that some Haitians had toward white people. The incident led her to hire a field guide. 

00:18:25	Question: Do you want to discuss finishing your research at the Savannah River Ecology lab in Aiken, SC? Answer: McDonald went to the Savannah River Ecology lab to use their electrophoresis facilities for her research. The Ecology lab was in a unique setting for studying nuclear pollution. McDonald discussed the research of some of her colleagues at Savannah, including a study involving coots and a deer population genetics study. 

00:26:07	[no question] McDonald described having discussions with her colleagues on the literature in the field. She said that she learned a great deal at Savannah. Question: Do you feel that the intellectual climate also improved your dissertation? Answer: McDonald said that her dissertation was improved “tremendously.” 

00:29:13	Question: Do you want to talk about the attitudes toward women in general that you experienced while working on your PhD? Answer: McDonald did not feel any gender discrimination at the University of Florida. She discussed one of her co-advisors at the Florida State Museum who had caused her trouble during her field work in Haiti. Follow-up: What was this person’s name? Answer: Charles Woods. McDonald discussed her other co-advisor, Bill [Hardy?], who McDonald felt did not understand her research and frequently criticized her writing. McDonald thought that the overall atmosphere at the Florida State Museum was “not good,” because of Woods’ poor leadership.

00:38:23	Question: Another person you wanted to mention was Mary-Clair King. Answer: Mary-Clair King was a graduate student at Berkeley and the wife of one of McDonald’s professors when she was there. McDonald discussed King’s research with breast cancer and work in forensic analysis. Follow-up: What was your relationship with her? Answer: McDonald considered her a “great role model.” She discussed another role model, Mercedes Foster, who worked at the Smithsonian.

00:42:57	[no question] McDonald described the “sexist” situation at Savannah River Ecology lab. She described an initially “antagonistic relationship” with the lab manager there which she was later able to change. She discussed feeling left out of groups of fellow researchers. 

00:46:22	Question: After earning your PhD in 1988, you held a post-doctoral position at the University of Cincinnati, a fellowship from the Smithsonian, and several positions at the University of Missouri. Could you describe why you accepted these positions and how they related to your career goals? Answer: McDonald wanted to learn molecular techniques, and the post-doc position with Michael Braun at the University of Cincinnati allowed her to do so. After moving there, she was informed that they were moving to the Smithsonian in three months. She discussed moving to DC to a mostly empty lab. Braun delayed McDonald’s research.

00:52:21	Question: Braun did not have much research experience in the things you were going to be doing? Answer: McDonald thought that her experience from the Savannah River Ecology lab “threatened him,” in addition to her publishing. She described him as “sexist.” After having McDonald do secretarial work, he stated that he did not like her research. McDonald immediately started applying for other positions, and accepted a position at the University of Missouri. A colleague complained to the Smithsonian Office of Fellowships about McDonald’s poor experience with being hired as a post-doc and having no facilities.

00:58:45	[no question] McDonald began at the University of Missouri in Columbia in 1989. Her advisor had promised her a salary and full benefits once he had obtained funding, but he ended up reneging on his commitment to McDonald. She discussed her attempts at suicide following this experience. 

01:01:52	Question: So what happened next? Answer: McDonald filed a lawsuit and a grievance over her dismissal from her post-doc position. The committee recommended that she be reinstated, but the decision was overruled by the Chancellor. They took the case to court, where they ruled against McDonald. After filing an appeal, McDonald finally received a favorable ruling in 1996. Question: What were you doing in the meantime? Answer: McDonald couldn’t find a full-time job, after sending out many applications. She accepted a research associate offer from UW in 1992, without realizing that it was considered a post-doctoral position. 

01:06:38	[no question] McDonald continued to discuss her post-doctoral position at UW, in a lab researching the effect of drugs on colorectal cancer cells. She described her research activities in this position.

01:11:18	[no question] McDonald discussed looking for opportunities for better staff positions and being reappointed before her post-doctoral appointment was up. The lab manager who had hired McDonald disapproved of her reappointment. McDonald ended up being laid off from her new position, and she moved into Plant Pathology.

01:16:40	[no question] McDonald discussed her position in Plant Pathology, serving as the lab coordinator for a class for undergraduate non-majors. She told an anecdote relating to a “pet microbe” project that students in the class completed, allowing them to integrate biology into their own experiences. The classroom emphasis was on cooperation over competition.

01:23:07	[no question] McDonald discussed her position working with BioCore. The instructors were concerned that students in BioCore were gaining in-depth experience with molecular biology without a real understanding of ecology. McDonald described setting up a bird banding project with BioCore. Question: What is the question that you are asking in BioCore by banding the birds? Answer: McDonald said that the question was: as the BioCore prairie is being restructured, how does the bird community change with it? The ultimate question related to the effects of global warming on migrant bird populations. She described a research project that a student was working on related to birds in the BioCore prairie. 

01:31:28	Question: You wanted to talk about your experience in pediatrics from 1999 to 2000? Answer: McDonald had been hired as an assistant in pediatrics as part of the cystic fibrosis project with Phil Farrell. They were trying to determine whether identifying cystic fibrosis in babies and attempting to treat it early was better than waiting until it was diagnosed later. But though early treatment did seem to be helpful, the children seemed to pick up the bacterium pseudomonas aeruginosa more easily. McDonald was hired to work on this problem. She discussed a problem she had with a co-worker in this position.

01:38:38	[no question] After being laid off from this position, McDonald decided she had to cease doing research. She said that being unable to complete so many research projects was too depressing. McDonald began to pursue administrative positions. An internship she had beginning in the fall of 2001 with Steve Lund in the Office of Human Resources opened opportunities for her to sit on various university-wide committees and working groups. She discussed her perceptions of the “progressive” initiatives of the UW administration.

01:45:13	Question: You wanted to talk about your current position in Genetics? Answer: At the time of the interview, McDonald was serving as an assistant administrator to Kathy Zweifel. She discussed a Medical School symposium that had not included any women from the Medical School, which prompted her to contact the Provost and the Dean of the Medical School. The symposium had been organized by someone she had once worked with, who had called her an “empty vessel.” Follow-up: What happened after you contacted the Provost? Answer: The symposium changed its schedules to include more women, although many shared sessions rather than presenting their own work. McDonald did think that the administration was trying to rectify such issues. 

01:52:41	Question: With all of the challenges that you have faced as a woman in science, what has kept you going? Answer: McDonald discussed having emotional problems that had perhaps held her back further. She explained that her passion for science spurred her on. Question: Could you talk about some of the benefits of having a varied career in science? Answer: McDonald talked about having a range of experiences, witnessing both “good” and “bad” science. She appreciated being able to participate in policy decisions, to mentor and teach on campus, and to do outreach off-campus. 

01:59:56	End of session

End of Oral History #653