UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #1000
LENZKE, LINDA

Lenzke, Linda (1950-)
Occupation: Not applicable
At UW: Not applicable, in Madison from 1974 to present

Interviewed: 	2009 (2 sessions) 
Interviewer: 	Leanne Gray
Index by: 	Kelly Rupp
Length: 	1 hour 28 minutes, and 52 minutes
Series: 	Madison’s LGBT Community, 1960s to present

Abstract: In her 2009 interview with Leanne Gray, Linda Lenzke details her life in Madison. She spoke of the time period between the 1970s and present and of the following topics: lesbianism, feminism, her relationships, and Madison lesbian-friendly businesses and organizations. This interview was conducted for inclusion into the project, Madison’s LGBT Community, 1960s-Present, part of the UW-Madison Oral History Program’s general collection.

Key Words: Lesbianism, Madison (WI), Lysistrata, National Organization for Women, Wish House, Lesbian Moms, The United; Outreach; feminism; alcoholism; recovery; poetry; comedy; co-parenting.

First Interview Session (May 9, 2009): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:15	Lenzke talked about her background growing up in a blue-collar, middleclass family as the eldest of six children in Racine, WI. She was successful in school but didn’t feel like she fit in. Her father managed the custodians at her school and was very engaged in monitoring her success at school.

00:02:47	[No question.] Lenzke started college at UW-Parkside, where she met her husband Frank. They married and moved to Kenosha, WI. Lenzke was a “distracted” student, more involved in anti-war activism than studying during the 1968 political climate. In 1974 Lenzke and husband moved to Madison so Lenzke could go back to school.

00:05:22	Question: How was it coming out in 1979 in Madison? Answer: Coming out took a number of years. In 1973 while married, Lenzke quickly became close friends with a new co-worker, Gloria. They would get together once a week to talk and listen to music late into the night. They became infatuated with each other.  Gloria was out as a lesbian to LL and LL planned a weekend together with her while her husband was out of town. Both of them waited for the other to make the first move, however, and nothing happened.

00:08:08	[No question.] Lenzke moved to Madison to go back to school and she thinks to subconsciously flee the situation with Gloria. She repeatedly dropped out of classes mid-semester though and decided to return to work.  She worked as a silkscreen printer because of her interest in art. She joined a feminist consciousness raising group sponsored by the National Organization for Women which was integral to her coming out. She met regularly with a group of women and one of the topics they discussed was lesbian relationships. This was the mid-70s and, as part of the sexual revolution, women were exploring open relationships with men and women. 

00:11:25	[No question.] LL became more involved with NOW and at a retreat she met Megan, a photographer. They formed a romantic friendship that lasted for years. Meanwhile, she maintained a successful marriage with Frank where they both had independent lives. During that time in NOW, lesbianism caused controversy. Although the prominent leaders of the group working to pass the Equal Rights Amendment were lesbians, a large part of the NOW membership wanted lesbians to return to the closet. Although LL did not define herself as a lesbian, she had politically aligned herself with the lesbian leadership in NOW as she became more involved in the organization.  LL had risen to the level of regional and national trainer for the consciousness raising program and was also on the NOW national committee. She was to be appointed chair of the NOW national committee but was blackballed because she came out as a lesbian.

00:14:51	[No question.] Representing NOW’s consciousness raising program, Lenzke attended a Women in Law conference at the University of Wisconsin. Catherine Rouse was there promoting the cooperative restaurant Lysistrata and they flirted together all day. They became lovers shortly thereafter but ended the relationship because Lenzke wouldn’t leave her husband. Catherine later committed suicide after murdering her partner. Lenzke told her husband about the affair. They remained married and Frank told LL that it would be ok for her to see women.

00:20:10	Question: How did you end your marriage and come out as a lesbian? Answer: Lenzke went on a training weekend in Milwaukee for NOW. Mary, an acquaintance was there. They became lovers. Meanwhile, Lenzke and Frank had marital problems. Lenzke was drinking. Frank was gambling. Frank didn’t want Lenzke to have other relationships. They separated and later divorced. Lenzke and Mary later separated. LL was on her own, still drinking too much and 29-30 years old.

00:27:23	Question: Was the rest of your family aware of what was going on? Answer: Lenzke’s family had a good relationship with her husband. It was hard to tell them the marriage was over. A couple years after the separation, she came out to her parents by writing them a letter. She wrote how she hoped they would react, with support, and they did. Her siblings were only a little surprised. They were accepting.

00:33:12	Question: Once you came out, was Lysistrata a place you felt comfortable hanging out given your past relationship with Catherine Rouse? Answer: Catherine made everyone feel welcome there. LL lived near it and every Thursday was women’s night.  LL would usually go then and on the weekends. It appealed to liberal men and women. It was a thriving place to meet other women in Madison. Later it became not a feminists’ place but a women’s bar. That was part of its demise. 

00:36:16	Question: Did Lysistrata play into your issues with alcohol? Answer: From the late 70s to early 80s Lenzke drank a lot. It interfered with her relationships. She got sober in the early 80s because her drinking was risking the future of a relationship. It was a good time to get sober. She went into an outpatient treatment program but the relationship ended.

00:38:56	Question: Describe your first long-term relationship post-recovery.  Answer: Lenzke met a number of lesbian friends during recovery, but wasn’t involved in a serious relationship for at least a year and a half. It was harder to start relationships sober. She met Laurie, they dated for a few months, then moved in together. Laurie had a daughter, they co-parented. 

00:42:07	Question: How did your involvement in the variety show start? Answer: Lenzke had acted in high school and college. She was interested in standup comedy but had stage fright. She along with other committed volunteers helped remodel a space for women to have meetings or classes in, Apple Island.  LL took acting classes at Apple Island, doing improvisation and gaining confidence. She created an improvisation group, Acting Out and later organized a fundraising comedy jam for Apple Island. Then she auditioned for the variety show for which she did stand up. She performed for an audience of 800 at the Barrymore Theater.

00:47:13	Question: What gave you the confidence to put yourself out there in the Madison community? Answer: Lenzke was a social person, so the comedy was a great way to collaborate with others. She also became active with founding and running WISH House (Women in Support and Healing), a space for 12-step meetings, on Williamson Street. She was its first president of the board of directors. 

00:49:47	Question: Did you experience discrimination in the workplace because you were so visible in the lesbian community? Answer: Lenzke worked at the silk-screen printer for almost 20 years. They watched her gradually go through life’s changes. They supported her. After that job, she had to come out to other employers. It always came out in natural ways, like talking about what she and her partner did over the weekend. Some colleagues saw her on TV as the emcee of the Pride March. She never felt discriminated against. 

00:55:31	Question: Does religion play a part in your life? Answer: Lenzke grew up Catholic. An experience with her bigamist grandfather jaded her, and she converted to Agnosticism. She studied philosophy in college. Part of her recovery from alcoholism was to find a high power.  

1:00:25	Question: Sports in the Madison lesbian community? Answer: Lenzke played on a number of fast-pitch softball teams over the years as an entrance to the lesbian community. One team was the Lysistrata Fireballs (the restaurant burned down.) 

1:02:34	Question: Share your recollections of how Lysistrata ended.  Answer: It started in approximately 1977. By 1982 it was struggling financially. It was late on unemployment tax. They weren’t making enough money to pay the bills. A fire burned down the whole building, which had multiple tenants. They could not prove who started the fire. It was rumored it started at Lysistrata because of their financial issues. The insurance company did not pay part of the insurance settlement. The issue went to court but they lost. The part of the settlement received paid off debts, namely the IRS. They did not have enough to restart the business.

01:09:15	Question: Did you feel the verdict had to do with there being mostly lesbians on the board of directors? Answer: The insurance company did not understand their business model. It wasn’t outright discrimination against lesbians but against women. The whole community was surprised by the outcome, but there wasn’t enough community support to continue Lysistrata. After it ended, Lenzke got sober, became active in Wish House, and sponsored and supported people in AA.

01:15:10	Question: The Valentine Poems? Answer: She began writing poetry 30 years ago. “The Valentine Poems” was a chapter from “Scenes of Everyday Life.” Every year for Valentine’s Day she wrote a poem to Cindy, throughout their 15-year relationship. The poems captured mundane moments, struggles.

01:20:06	Question: Is publishing this a form of moving on? Answer: Lenzke hasn’t performed in a while. Her comedy was based on her self-deprecating humor. As she and her family became healthy, she didn’t have as much material. Writing the poems was a more natural outlet. She was considering creating a performance piece out of the poems. 

01:23:12	Question: Are you still friends with Cindy? Answer: They were trying to figure out what the new relationship would be while processing the reasons why the old relationship did not work. They were both unhappy with their commuter relationship. Lenzke joined some community groups and was open to dating again. 

		End of First Interview Session

Second Interview Session (May 30, 2009): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:17	Question: Friendships with women? Answer: Friendships were essential for health and satisfaction in life as a lesbian. Before coming out, her needs were met with family and husband. When she began having friendships with women, she found these relationships far more emotionally intimate and felt conflicted having relationships with women while still married despite the contemporary social-climate of sexual and relationship experimentation.  [Lenzke then gives a very brief overview of several relationships she’s had through the years. This repeats from first interview.]

00:15:21	[No question.] Lenzke got sober and found a new network of friends in recovery. They had “orphan holidays,” family celebrations. They supported each other as a group. It was critical to her life. She met and moved in with Laurie during this time and co-parented Laurie’s daughter. This was the first, long-term, sober relationship. After it ended, Lenzke found support from her friends.

00:19:04	[No question.] She met Tracey, a graduate student musician, who was 20 years younger. Lenzke’s friends were not supportive of this relationship. Lenzke was doing her comedy at this time. She and Tracy were at different points in their lives so they separated.

00:20:53	[No question.] The relationship with Cindy was like a “marriage,” though they likely would not have gotten married if they could. But they did get divorced. Lenzke said it was important for the community to find ways to support each other. It was a gift to be part of a supportive community. 

00:22:45	Question: Relationships with kids involved? Answer: Parenting was a familiar role for Lenzke since childhood. Partners’ children became important to her. She stayed connected with Sandra’s boys after their breakup. Lenzke did not have contact with Laurie’s (1) son. Laurie (2)’s daughter lived nearby but they did not yet reconnect. 

00:28:14	Question: Lesbian Moms, The United and Outreach groups. Answer:  Lesbian Moms was a support group. They jokingly referred to each other as “real moms” and “unreal moms.”  Moms talked while kids played together. In those early years, most of the children had come from previous relationships and marriages with men and dealing with blended families and step-parenting was a prominent focus.  In later years, insemination and legal issues for lesbian partners who become parents developed as new issues.  For The United, Lenzke shared her experiences about parenting through its Speakers Bureau. For Outreach, she participated in their programs and facilitated Women for Women, a discussion and social group.

00:32:51	Question: Catherine Rouse and Lysistrata? Answer: Catherine was a dynamic person who was important to many people and suffered mental health problems.  She had extreme mood swings. Their relationship had ups and downs based on Catherine’s moods. Catherine killed her lover, Joan, and then took her own life. Lysistrata was an important first community supportive to lesbians for Lenzke. 

00:36:39	Question: On what LGBT issues have you seen the most change? Answer: Lesbians were integral to second wave of feminism but received a lot of pressure to be closeted in the political campaigns to pass the ERA and secure the right to abortion. Lesbians then distanced themselves from feminism and started the lesbian separatist movement. Now the LGBT movement has successfully made a place for queer people in coalition-based activist work and queer people don’t have to be ashamed or hide the way they had to in the past. Queer civil rights have more recognition now.  For example, many people worked together on the gay marriage issue.  Although supportive of the strong sub-cultures that have flourished, LL thinks mainstream acceptance of LGBT identities is a good development.

00:41:30	Question: Wisconsin’s vote to ban gay marriage? Question: Wisconsin was a progressive state. It was hard for Lenzke to understand how this regressive development happened.  This should galvanize people to be more active and out.   

00:42:30	Question: Future changes in the community? Answer: Excited about oral history project because it shared Madison’s rich history with others, getting wide community support for the LGBT community. She shared her experience as a “lesbian elder” with younger generations. She also performs observational comedy about her life and the culture, including topics like lesbian divorces. 

00:47:25	Question: Are you more or less involved in the community when you’re in a relationship? Answer: When Lenzke was in a relationship she invested in it and had more time for the community when not in a relationship. At the time of this interview she was striving for balance to find time for self, family, friends and community. 

00:49:10	Question: Role model? Answer: Lenzke tried to find several sources for inspiration, books, people, and cultural experiences. She took what she needed and left the rest, a method learned from Alcoholics Anonymous. She always tried to expand her life. 

00:52:31	Question:  What are you most proud of? Answer: Being a woman, a recovering woman, and a recovering lesbian woman. 

		End of Second Interview Session

End of Oral History #1000