UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #1051
CZYSCON, JANICE

Narrator: 	Czyscon, Janice
Interviewer: 	Linda Lenzke
Date: 		2009
Location: 	Madison, Wisconsin
Oral History#: 1051
Series: 		Madison’s LGBT Community, 1960s to present
00:00:00	Start of Second Interview Session
LL: 	Today is Monday, July 27, 2009. I'm Linda Lenzke, and I am here with Janice Czyscon who we're going to begin our second interview. Where we left off after our first interview, is Janice pretty much brought us up to contemporary times in her life. We talked about her family of origin, her growing up years, her family that she created with Crystal, the girls she raised, her daughters, and a little bit about her work life and her activism. And when we left off last time, Janice wanted to talk a little bit more in detail about her relationship with Crystal, and how important that is in her life. So that's going to be our starting point. So here we have Janice Czyscon. 
00:00:57
JC: 	Hi again. I was thinking a little bit about what I said during the last interview, and I wanted to kind of expand a little bit. Maybe add a little bit more, because sometimes I kind of felt like I was rushing through my narrative. And what helped me think about living in Madison from 1980 and through the early 1990s, is that we can all do this. But what we were doing in those first 14 years of our relationship was, we were finding out about ourselves as individual lesbians, first of all. Our individual identities were of course evolving, and we were growing, and learning, and doing all of that personal, individual stuff. But we were also finding out about ourselves as partners. So where did our individual selves fit into the partnership? And kind of defining that partnership. We're also finding out about ourselves as parents, and I guess this happens to everybody, that you have all of these different aspects of your development seeming to happen all at once, but it just occurred to me that during those first 14 years, these were the things that were really, really happening to us. And we were beginning-- although, even in 1980 as we were trying to deal with our individual lesbian stories, we were part of the community. But I think we became more involved in the larger LGBT community in the early 1990s. And during this time, I realized that we heard each other, we loved each other, we had good times and bad times, but we also had the same thing going on, and I would say more strongly, that I felt it in the early 1990s. And I've commented on this quite often, it seemed to me that that was a very difficult time for the LGBT community in Madison. We had some very strong opposition, and it seemed like when we were trying to make positive change, the opposition came out ever more strongly. And I jotted down some names. We had Ron Greer, the firefighter, who was staunchly anti-gay, and he did run for school board. Luckily, we were able to defeat him on that, but he had some very negative oratory going then. We also had Ralph Ovadal from Monroe. He was heading up the organization called Wisconsin Christians United, and they launched a full frontal attack on us. And I think that came up largely in response to Hawthorne Elementary School becoming very pro-gay, wanting to participate in the filming of It's Elementary that I mentioned before. And also the showing of the exhibit, Love Makes a Family. And those were moments that were, for me, very most frightening part of my living here in Madison as part of the LGBT community. Because we did find literature left on our front steps from Wisconsin Christians United saying homosexuality is a sin. And having your young child find that before you got home, it just was not one of the happier moments. And, in fact, it really made me fear for our safety. So I wanted to make sure that these names became part of the history. That these, almost comparable to Anita Bryant on the national level in the '70s, we had Ron Greer and Ralph Ovadal in Wisconsin Christians United, among others. And then also at that time, I remember feeling what I described as a communal depression. I think we as a community, an LGBT community, we went through a-- there's only so much hurt you can be expected to withstand, and put on your armor, and not succumb to. But I think we all felt a very mental health deterioration during that part. And that's pretty much when Action Wisconsin then was founded. It started then, I think, pretty much as a response to some of these events. I'm sure there was other stuff that got it going, too, but-- 
LL: 	I just wanted to interject for one moment, too, because as you were talking I was realizing there was something else that was going on. And I'm sure that this dovetails directly into what you're talking about. In the early '90s, the very early '90s, was the whole Bill Clinton on the national level discussion about the military, and don't ask, don't tell. And that also coincided when many gay people who were in the military went to the first Iraq war. So some of that depression that you're describing, I think, was very much related to broken promises by a president that we felt was our ally, and when it came time, he didn't prove to be in that particular area. We had supported him, helped get him elected, and the very first opportunity he had to stand behind us, he failed to do it to our satisfaction. So I just wanted to put that backdrop there, too, because that was going on in the early '90s. In fact, 1992 or 1993 was when we had the march on Washington which was one of the last large gay marches. 
JC: 	Yes. So there was a lot going on, thanks for adding that. Because you were feeling it from so many different levels. I mean you were feeling it, obviously, personally, for many of us from family who weren't totally accepting, and then from your surrounding local community, and then on the national level. And I think broken promises are very heartbreaking. We also had during that time-- to look at my notes here-- we had the Jamie Nabozny abuse in the schools, and how what were the schools doing about that, and that pretty much got the state chapter of GLSTN going, an interest in it. He was a leading figure there in helping to catalyze that. And then Matthew Shepard's brutal murder during that time. So it's like, how much can you heap upon a group of people and expect them to just roll over? There's going to be a reaction. And I just thought that during that time it was very hard to stay positive. So anyway, that's enough about that. I just wanted to expand on that, and make sure we got a few names out there for the local history. 
00:09:02 
JC:	Talking a little bit more about my relationship with Crystal, I think the salient characterization, and this may be true for a lot of gay, lesbian couples, is you don't have the tradition that celebrates you, that supports you. And you have to go looking within your own community for that validation, affirmation, and I think it was kind of hard to come by. Because we were all struggling with the same issues, looking for that acceptance, so we were serving double duty. But I think groups like Lesbian Moms, Network, I'm sure The Gay Dads Group helped to kind of fill that role, as well as many of the other gay organizations in town. But I think that's what contributes to a lot of not being able to keep relationships going, is you don't have that traditional support that says, we value you two being together, we value your partnership, we want to see you stay together, and we're going to help you do that. So in the absence of that kind of support and affirmation and validation, and the presence of our very strong personalities-- Crystal and I are each very stubborn women-- the fact that our relationship has survived almost 30 years, given those two givens, says that we love and care about each other. Because there have been rough times, and I guess we just both said we just don't want to give up on it. So it's been tough, and I think we've had more people trying to undo our relationship than helping us keep it going. And then when you're in the middle of raising children, and all of your other commitments, finding the right balance of time for each other and nurturing that relationship becomes very difficult. And I remember a number of times saying, you know, we just have to stand back, put a date on the calendar where we just have time for ourselves, whether that we talk about what we wished we could be doing that we're not doing, or if it's just going out to a movie, or whatever, we have got to do this. Otherwise, we're not going to take care of us. We've taken care of everything else, and not us. And we decided we didn't want to do that. So the number of times we put that date on the calendar, I don't think was as often as we should have, but at least we were aware of that, and we did. We did do that. 
00:12:35 
JC:	So that gets me to the question about what do I what to do in retirement? And really, I want to, in retirement, give us the time to do the things we enjoy doing together, camping, traveling, bicycling. Of course, I think we should have the opportunity to do something on our own if we choose, but because it's always kind of like been a struggle to get that time to do together, that's what I want retirement to be. Struggle-free time to do the things we enjoy doing. To appreciate each other. To celebrate our relationship, not to cram it in. And maybe that sound selfish, but I feel like we really haven't given ourselves that opportunity as much as we should, and that's what I would like to do. I think, of course, we would both stay somewhat connected with some kind of volunteerism. Maybe working-- for me, having my mom in a nursing home makes me appreciate elderly women a whole lot more than I did before. And so I'm thinking that, while I'm still capable, maybe I'd be doing a little bit more volunteer work with women, straight or gay, who need companions, who need assistance. So I might volunteer a little time there. I'd even thought about maybe retooling so I could volunteer to support physical therapy for older women who need it so that they can stay a little bit more active. But that would be a very small percentage of volunteer commitment. And then I'd be very, very-- with my political commitments-- be very careful as to how much time I would give to anything along those lines. 
00:14:53
LL:	 Question for you. You have always, you and Crystal, have always been very politically involved through every developmental stage of your life as adults that I've known you. And you haven't always intended to be, but when there's been a call to action, or a reason to step up, you've always stepped up. When you think about the future, and you think about the kinds of issues that may face the LGBT community in the future, even though right now you're hopefully focusing on that time that you can recreate and spend time with your partner and your family, and maybe do some things that have been a little different than in the past. When you start looking to the future, what kinds of issues do you think are going to face the LGBT community in the future? If you could kind of take a crystal ball and take a look at it, knowing what your experience has been so far, what do you see in the future? 
JC: 	I think that there'll probably be a lot of long standing issues that are here now, will continue into the future. We worked on bringing that film, It's Elementary, talking about gay and lesbian issues in the schools. Well, talking about gay and lesbian issues in the retirement community, because over at Oakwood, where my mom lives, I know there's some very progressive people. But there's no real, overt acknowledgment that there is a segment of the community that's gay. And I don't know if that's because the residents are still very closeted, and they're doing a fine balancing act here about how much should we say about what our total inclusive policy is. But I think that as we mature, that's probably going to be an issue that, if I'm not lucky enough to get to live in a lesbian retirement center, that I might pursue or I might pursuit it on behalf of other people who aren't lucky enough to live in a community of lesbians or gay men. So retirement issues. I think health issues will remain. Getting proper health care for lesbians is an important issue, and it's probably going to grow. Not only for young women, but as we, again, grow old, we'll probably be facing challenges. I haven't really thought too much about it, but I know that lesbian health issues have always been a concern for our community. And I just think we're going to have to continue to work on educating people about our relationships. So that's what I see the big future challenges as, really not that much different than what they are now. We may have the advantage of more legal standing behind us than we did 10 years ago, but I still think that whole educational issue will be before us, although hopefully a little bit easier because we've already been educating our generation and the younger people coming up. 
00:18:36 
LL: 	I'm going to ask you to change the direction, and look backwards for a moment. One thread throughout your interview has been that the personal is political. That we don't always set out to be activists, but sometimes because it impacts on our personal lives and what's important to us on a personal level, we are called to action. When you look back at your life-- and this, I think, is a common part of the developmental stage of aging. Where you start reviewing the choices that you make, and you look back and you think about having some distance from some of those choices, and some of those decisions that you may have made. When you look back at your life, Janice, talk about maybe something you're most proud of, as a daughter, something you might be most proud of as a woman, something you might be most proud of as a mother, and something you might be most proud of as a partner, and maybe finally something you might be most proud of as a member of the Madison lesbian community. 
CJ: 	I think as a partner I'm most proud that, like I said, we've weathered the storm. I really think we can consider ourselves to be pioneers in terms of creating long-term relationships, although Dell Martin and Phyllis Lyon, obviously from another generation, did. But I think they were more-- maybe that's who we patterned ourselves after. So consider ourselves as pioneers, and especially in terms of raising children, too, within a lesbian relationship. We were again on the cutting edge there, and I'm proud that we got through it and raised two wonderful young women with very good values, good consciences, so that's what I'm proud of. That we made it and we're, at this point together in our lives, where we do choose to enjoy our golden years together, so to speak. Most proud of as a parent, I mean, it was rough raising kids. It was a tough job. And I'm just very happy with what nice people they've turned out to be. And I guess what I'm proud of is that we kind of did it in a way where we weren't permissive, but we weren't helicopter parents, and we did let them make mistakes. They made choices and made mistakes, and it was not easy watching that sometimes, but that's how we chose to raise Carmen and Rhonda, and I'm really happy with the results. They're both very independent, strong-willed women with good priorities. So you can't ask for more, really. And they still like to get in touch with us, so that makes me happy and proud. That they're in town is really nice, because when Rhonda was living out in the southwest, that was hard. So I'm glad she's here for a little while, I know she won't be here forever. She doesn't let the grass grow under her feet for too long. But we now have technology that we didn't have before, so we'll still stay connected when she-- we talked about her plans recently, and there is traveling abroad again, living abroad again, but hopefully we'll stay connected. My proudest moment as a daughter? I don't know. Right now I guess I'm proud of how I'm choosing to take care of my mom. It involves a lot of time, but I figure it's not that much time, and I figure I've got a pretty good balance to that. And all in all, why do I do it? Because it's the right thing to do, I believe. And when I think about my mom as a parent, when all is said and done, she was a pretty good parent. Yeah, she had her weaknesses, and she made her mistakes, but all in all she was a very loving mom. And so taking care of her now I think is, maybe not a proud moment as a daughter, but I really don't resent having to do what I do. Lucky to have her in a good place, because I don't know that I could do it as some people do, day in and day out, 24/7. I don't know if it would be fair to me or her, so we're kind of lucky in that regard. In the community? My proudest moment in the community. Well politically or for women, I think my proudest moment, as I may have talked with you about before, was during the equal rights amendment, extension of the ratification march in DC, when I was able to just go up on stage and buttonhole the senator from Illinois, Percy, and ask him, actually saying, you will vote to support extension of the deadline for ratification. And he hemmed and hawed, I don't believe he really made a commitment, but he voted correctly when the vote came up. I guess prior to that, every chance I had, I've never let an opportunity where women were put down in any way to go unaddressed. So I probably was born with an innate, strong sense of fairness. And I had seen how women were treated unfairly, I was treated unfairly, so I just made it standard practice to always address any acts of, intended or not, disparaging treatment to women. So I'm pretty proud about that. I'm proud about being a feminist. And the LGBT community, my proudest moment. I think it was when-- I was actually very proud of Crystal when I was testifying at a school board meeting, and the superintendent of schools at that time, Cheryl Wilhoyte, who should be in the timeline somewhere, basically said that I was lying. What I was saying in testimony before the school board and the Madison community that I was lying, and Crystal just got up and said, excuse me? You don't talk about my partner that way. So I know that's not an example of my proudest moment but boy, that was really good to hear and see. I think just the proudest moment from an activist standpoint are many that have to do with the changes we've made in the school district here. And I think the increase of awareness on campus for the LGBT community, the work I've done in that regard, was steady, ongoing, and something I'm proud of. 
LL: 	Before we conclude our interview, I was just wondering if there was anything that we didn't cover that you'd like to talk about? And so I'll give you this one last chance, and if not, we'll end our second interview. But I just wanted to take this moment to say that I feel very grateful that I had the opportunity to share this experience with you, Janice. 
JC: 	Thank you, Linda. Again, thank you for doing this. I think this is a very important project, and I really think we've covered just about everything. I did mention most of the names that I wanted to that I hadn't last time. To put my remarks into the context of other individuals in the community. But I guess I would just conclude with saying, when I think back, there are quite a few people who I first met when I first got to Madison in '78-'79, who are still here. And I'm glad I got to know them through any of the organizations I belong to and work with. So it's all in all a very good community. 
LL: 	Well thank you very much. And one last little personal note that I want to interject here was that one legacy that you had something to be responsible for, is that a member of your family, in addition to you and Crystal being very involved in this particular project, your daughter Carmen has stepped forward and said, I want to be the next generation of women who keep this story going, and who capture this legacy. So your work continues, and I just want to thank you for the way that you've contributed on a personal level, as a family member, and to the community. Thank you very much, Janice.