UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #516
WILEY, JOHN D.

WILEY, John D.  (1942- )
Graduate Student; Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering; Associate Dean of College of Engineering; Dean of Graduate School; Provost

At UW: 1965-1968; 1975-

First Interview
Interviewed: 1997	
Series: College of Engineering
Interviewer: Barry Teicher 
Length: 2 hours

Childhood; Early education; Indiana University; UW Physics Department; R. N. Dexter; Student protest movement; Sterling Hall bombing; Dissertation research; Bell Laboratories; Max Planck Institute; Hiring by UW; Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering; College of Engineering; Women and College of Engineering; Research and patents; Institute for Electrical and Electronics Engineers.

Second Interview
Interviewed: 1998			      
Series: College of Engineering
Interviewer: Barry Teicher
Length: 1.5 hours	

Materials Science program; Materials Science Center; Chairmanship of Materials Science program; Sematech; Synchotron Radiation Center; Engineering Experiment Station; Instrumentation System Center; Associate deanship; Appointment as dean of Graduate School.

Third Interview
Interviewed: 1999				
Interviewer: Barry Teicher
Length: 3 hours	

Hiring as dean of Graduate School; Robert Bock; Chancellor Donna Shalala; Graduate School staff; John Bollinger; Strategic planning; Graduate School admissions policy; Computerizing Graduate School; Madison Plan; Paul Barrows; Advanced Opportunity fellowships; Exchange program with minority colleges; Graduate School associate deans; Synchotron Radiation Center; WARF research funding; WARF Board; Program duplication; Spousal hires; Cost sharing; Indirect costs; Association of Graduate Schools; College rating services.

Fourth Interview
Interviewed: 2005				
Interviewer: John Fournelle
Length: 0.5 hours	

Research with electron microprobe.

Fifth Interview
Interviewed: 2008 (6/13, 7/8, and 8/5)		
Interviewer: Charles Read
Length: 205 minutes	
Indexed by: Troy Reeves

In his three interviews with Dr. Charles Read, former UW-Madison Chancellor John Wiley talked about his sixteen years in UW-Madison administration.  Wiley spoke of the time period between 1992 and 2008 and of the following topics: UW-Madison administration; Shalala, Donna; Wisconsin State Legislature; Thompson, Tommy; Owen House; 9/11/2001; and numerous stories about campus colleges and departments, including UW-Madison’s work on stem cells and telescope creation throughout the world.  This interview was conducted for inclusion into the UW—Madison’s oral history program’s general collection.  

NOTE: THESE INTERVIEWS ARE RESTRICTED, PER WILEY’S REQUEST, UNTIL JANUARY 1, 2013 AND MAY NOT BE USED WITHOUT THE WRITTEN CONSENT OF JOHN WILEY.

FIRST INTERVIEW 

December 30, 1997: Tapes 1-2

Tape 1/Side 1

00:00:15 	JW’s father was a traveling salesman who eventually took a permanent job and settled down in Evansville, Indiana.  JW attended public schools.  When he was a child, his father fostered his interest in chemistry, astronomy and music, among other subjects.

00:02:25	JW began formal science classes in the fifth grade.  Harry Clark was his science teacher.  JW entered science fairs regularly.  He enjoyed taking things apart, trying to figure out how they worked and then putting them back together again.

00:04:01	JW enrolled at Indiana University as a physics major.  He selected Indiana because he could afford it: tuition was $125 per year and living costs were less than $1,000 per year.

00:04:57	JW had superb science and mathematics teachers in high school.  His biology, chemistry and physics teachers all were doing graduate work in their respective fields when World War II broke out.  After the war, they did not return to graduate school and instead became high school teachers.  In high school, JW had two full years of chemistry, one-and-a-half years of physics, and four years of math.  In addition he took a course in analytic geometry at Evansville College.  JW believes this was an excellent college preparatory curriculum.  Several of JW’s high school classmates went on to receive graduate degrees in the sciences.

00:07:12	JW does not remember any one particular reason he chose physics as his major.  One thing that may have influenced him was an early morning television show called “The Sunrise Semester.”  A physics course was taught on this show, and JW watched it religiously. 

00:10:08	None of JW’s professors at Indiana influenced him like his high school teachers had.  One professor, Milo Samson, whom JW had for a course in thermodynamics, got him a summer job working in a cyclotron laboratory.  He discusses some of his work at the lab.

00:12:28	JW discussed graduate school options with members of the Indiana faculty.  They recommended Wisconsin and Illinois, which were both within “striking distance” of Bloomington.  He drove with a friend first to Champaign-Urbana then to Madison.  JW stayed in Madison a few days and decided he wanted to go to graduate school here.  The physical beauty of the campus was a strong selling point.

00:14:35	The Physics Department was housed in Sterling Hall.  JW took a course in solid state physics (semiconductors) from R. N. Dexter, who later became his advisor.  JW approached Dexter about joining his research group and Dexter allowed him to do so.

00:16:24	The study of semiconductors had been underway since the mid-1940s.  JW remembers getting his first transistor in late grade school or early high school.  He used to buy old radios, take them apart and use the pieces to build other things.  All of JW’s electronics work up to that point had been with vacuum tube electronics.  He was delighted when transistors became available, though initially they were unsatisfactory.  Dexter was the only one at UW with whom JW worked on semiconductors.  Paul Peercy, who was JW’s immediate predecessor in Dexter’s group, also did work in semiconductors.  JW discusses Peercy’s career after leaving UW.  Dexter had a relatively small research group, usually consisting of four or five students.  JW’s work was funded by an Air Force grant.

00:20:54	JW recalls other excellent instructors during his graduate years.  He worked with Converse Blanchard, who taught the required classical mechanics course.  JW also took advanced classical theoretical physics from Loyal Durand.  Kirk McVoy was JW’s instructor in quantum mechanics.  JW discusses McVoy’s interest in scattering theory.  He relates some anecdotes from McVoy’s class.  JW had David Huber for two or three courses.  The quality of instruction in the Physics Department was first-rate.

00:27:28	When JW was an undergraduate at Indiana, he joined Sigma Pi Sigma, a physics honor society.  Also, he was an avid photographer.  He joined the Memorial Union in order to make use of its photo lab.

00:28:52	JW discusses his roommates, including Steve Olson and Max Lagally.  They nearly formed an organization of scientists.  JW describes Olson as the heavyweight of the group and discusses his career.

00:29:58	JW begins discussing the coffee club he and his friends organized in the basement of Sterling Hall.

00:30:39	End of side.

Tape 1/Side 2

00:30:47	The coffee situation was deplorable at Sterling Hall so JW and Lagally, along with a few others, decided they should take turns making sure that decent coffee was available.  They bought coffee by the case and sold about 400 cups a day.  The venture was very profitable.  Occasionally they would throw parties financed by coffee club profits.  JW says the coffee club parties were regarded as some of the best on campus.

00:32:39	JW’s arrival on campus in 1964 coincided with the first rumblings of campus unrest.  The student protests were in full swing by 1966.  He remembers the Students for a Democratic Society’s activities and the teach-ins and sit-ins.  In the Physics Department, students were primarily left of center politically.

00:33:45	JW was not active in the protest movement.  He set a deadline to graduate in four years and worked hard to meet it.  During the presidential elections, he actively campaigned for Eugene McCarthy.  Most students were opposed to the war in Vietnam.  With a few exceptions, the faculty was opposed to the war as well.  Dexter was not opposed to the war, yet JW does not remember this causing any particular problems.  JW talks about a student in the Physics Department who was an avowed Communist.

00:40:35	JW discusses the Sterling Hall bombing.  The truck carrying the bomb was parked right outside the room where JW worked.  He describes some of the damage done by the bomb.  He knew the post-doctoral student who was killed in the bombing quite well.

00:44:24	JW talks about his dissertation research.  He studied how microwaves propagate through slabs of semiconductors when magnetic fields are applied to them.  By analyzing those interference fringes, JW could determine the effective mass of the electrons, the refractive index of the semiconductor slab and the density of electrons.  JW believes he still holds the world record for the lowest effective mass ever measured in a semiconductor.  Practically speaking, the Air Force uses research like this in designing night vision materials, such as goggles.

00:50:49	JW received his Ph.D. in 1968.  His inclination was to go straight into an academic job; he had no interest in going into private industry.  Dexter, however, had already approached someone from Bell Laboratories about a job for JW.  When the recruiter arrived on campus, JW would not talk to him at first.  Bell made a very generous offer, and JW reluctantly accepted.  He decided he would remain at Bell for only a year, but he ended up liking it more than he thought and stayed for eight years.

00:56:35	JW speculates that he might still be at Bell Labs today had he not received an offer to spend a year in Germany, at the Max Planck Institute in Stuttgart.  Bell grudgingly gave him a year’s leave.  While he was in Stuttgart, JW received and accepted a job offer from UW.  He resigned again from Bell Labs, which responded by renewing his leave for an additional year.

00:58:08	At Bell, JW did work in semiconductors.  This work was very different from his work at UW.  He was employed at the Murray Hill facility, where he worked in several areas.  JW explains some of the work Bell was doing in astrophysics.  His department was opto-electronic and magnetic materials.

01:00:20	Bell Labs had a rule that every employee had to spend a minimum of six months working in a division other than his own.  Thus JW did his internship with Ernie Buehler, who did some of the earliest work in the growth of quartz crystals.

01:01:31	End of side.  End of tape.

Tape 2/Side 1

01:01:32	Bell Labs sought a way to grow quartz artificially.  JW explains how Buehler was able to do this, though not without causing an explosion in his lab.  Buehler was growing other kinds of crystals, including semiconductors, by the time JW joined him.

01:05:50	JW was at the Max Planck Institute from September 1974 through August 1975.  The Institute had recently managed to grow high-quality crystals.  He did extensive research on germanium sulfide, a type of crystal grown at the Institute.

01:01:15	JW learned of the job at UW from Vincent Rideout, who had heard of JW from Max Lagally.  When JW came to Madison for the interview, he believes it was for a half-time appointment in Metallurgical Engineering and a half-time appointment in Electrical Engineering.  Instead he was offered a full-time appointment in Electrical  Engineering.

01:08:28	JW discusses the Department of Electrical & Computer Engineering.  The Department had approximately forty professors on its faculty when JW arrived on campus again.  He was hired specifically for semiconductor work (solid state electronics).  He believes there were a few people working in semiconductors in the College of Engineering when he was a graduate student in the Physics Department.

01:10:39	JW quickly realized the Department was in transition.  The faculty was divided into the old guard and the young Turks.  The basis for the division was as much attitude as age.  Several of the faculty had been hired immediately after World War II to teach introductory courses to the returning GIs.  They had no interest or training in research, nor did they think they would be expected to do research.  The Department changed over time and they did not.  Many of them became very bitter.  A schism developed within the Department, and it became difficult to develop a consensus on important issues, such as hiring and promotion. 

01:13:15	Tom Higgins was the “grand old man” of the Department when JW arrived.  Higgins was famous in his younger days and had turned out a tremendous number of Ph.D.s.  His former students are on the faculty of every important electrical engineering department in the country.

01:15:01	Rideout, Donald Novotny and William Birkemeier served as Department chairmen during JW’s years in the Department.  They were all good at handling day-to-day administrative tasks and ensuring the Department was moving forward.  This was not an easy task considering it was divided on so many issues.

01:15:50	A Ph.D. was not required to teach engineering before World War II.  The war changed engineering, especially electrical engineering.  Engineers were humiliated by the fact that most of the scientific innovations of World War II—such as the atomic bomb and radar—were made by physicists, chemists and mathematicians.  Training for engineers was more vocational before World War II.

01:17:50	After the war, engineering schools all over the country started requiring more chemistry, physics and math from students.  Later there was a backlash due to the concern that engineering schools were turning out scientists rather than engineers.  As a result, the schools then began requiring additional practical courses.

01:19:54	JW did not know Kurt Wendt but says he had a very good reputation.  Everyone liked engineering dean Robert Marshall.  He was very “hands off,” a “fatherly” dean who let things run on their own.  JW thinks this management style might have been right for the times, but not for much longer.  John Bollinger, the current dean, is quite the opposite.  He has driven and shaped the College.

01:24:10	When JW came to Madison, he taught primarily solid state and semiconductor courses.  The first course he taught was his Department’s version of solid state physics, patterned on a similar course offered by the Physics Department.  JW also taught graduate courses in semiconductors and team taught an introductory materials science course.

01:26:43	JW discusses some of the students he mentored.  His first graduate student, Felix Edgal, was from Nigeria.  He may very well be the smartest person JW has ever known.  Edgal returned to Nigeria, where he taught for ten years or so.  When conditions worsened there, JW arranged a post-doc for him under David Huber.  At present, Edgal is applying for U.S. citizenship and is teaching at a community college in West Virginia.  JW is sure he will move on to a university job once he obtains his green card.

01:30:27	Another student who stands out in JW’s mind is his last student, Andrew Clark, who did computer modeling.  He ended up at Pacific Lutheran University, which is located in the Seattle area.  JW tells how Clarke got in trouble for flunking most of his students.

01:32:12	End of side.

Tape 2/Side 2

01:32:25	JW relates how Clark won a lawsuit against Pacific Lutheran University.  He returned to UW and got a business degree in a special program set up for scientists who want to apply their analytical skills to financial markets.  He now works for an investment firm.

01:33:22	JW discusses the recruitment of women in the College of Engineering.  He says the College has not done as good a job as it should.  Diane Smith, hired around 1980, was the first woman to teach engineering courses (as opposed to technical courses).  She lasted only a year or two because of the hostile environment she encountered in the College.

01:34:55	The second woman hired was Denise Denton.  She survived for a long time, in part because she was able “to give as good as she got.”  She eventually got tenure.  Denton left UW to become dean of the College of Engineering at the University of Washington in Seattle.  JW says that even today there are only 12 to 15 women on a faculty of 220.  “It’s been a slow process.”

01:35:55	There are more female students now than when JW came to the College in 1975.  He believes that 15 to 20 per cent of the student population is women.  He estimates that the percentage of Asian and other minority populations has remained about the same.

01:37:01	The College has always had strong international connections, including programs in Mexico, India and Indonesia.

01:38:08	JW talks about his research.  Every professor in the College gives his students the same advice when it comes to research: find a niche and become the world expert in that particular area.  JW never took that advice.  Instead he “jumped all around” and did whatever he thought was interesting.  In his computer modeling projects and his work in thin film, for example, he worked in a number of different areas.  JW says there was no real common thread running through his research except that all of it has to do with material science in one way or another.  He became involved in x-ray lithography at the Synchrotron Radiation Laboratory in Stoughton.

01:40:51	JW registered a patent while working for Bell Labs, which built the instrument and marketed it.  At UW, he and John Perepezko filed several disclosures for various methods of using thin amorphous metal films.  The patents are registered with WARF and have been licensed by Delco Electronics as a batch.  The arrangement was for Delco to license the patents in return for a one-time fee.  Delco would then package their know-how with the patented technology and WARF would further license the entire package to other companies, with Delco and WARF splitting the profits. JW holds another patent with one of his graduate students.

01:45:20	JW discusses his campus service during his career in the College.  He joined the Faculty Senate and attended all the meetings—because it was required—but remembers little else other than “being bored and irritated” by the proceedings.  He gives examples of some of the tedious issues that came before the Senate.

01:47:22	JW served as faculty advisor as well as in several other capacities for the Institute for Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE), the professional society of electrical engineers.  He also served on nearly every space and remodeling committee in the College of Engineering.

01:48:38	JW had occasional contact with Chancellor Irving Shain.  JW describes Shain as a “hands on” chancellor.  He worked with Shain most intensively when they were trying to raise money for x-ray lithography.  Shain hosted lunches in Olin House for potential donors.

01:50:55	End of side.  End of tape.  End of first interview.

SECOND INTERVIEW

February 4, 1998: Tapes 3-4

Tape 3/Side 1

00:00:01	JW discusses the Materials Science program.  There has been a Materials Science graduate-level interdepartmental degree program on campus since about 1968.  Arthur Dodd, Jim Nordman and John Ferry were some of the people involved in founding it.  They observed there was a need for a program for students with a background in physics and chemistry to apply their studies to the properties of modern materials.  Since the program was not a department per se, an advisory committee was formed to oversee it.  An elected chairman functioned somewhat like a department chair.

00:02:45	Initially, the Materials Science program had only a nominal budget, but the College of Engineering provided more resources over time for personnel and program expenses.  Eventually, the faculty involved with the program were successful in getting equipment grants and building up a service center, called the Materials Science Center.  It was distinct from the program; however, whoever chaired the program also became the director of the Center.  The Center convinced the College to hire technicians to help maintain the equipment and teach students how to use it.

00:04:16	JW did not arrive on campus until 1975.  He was "arm twisted" into becoming the chair of the Materials Science program in about 1978-79.  Although he has often been given credit for starting the program, he did not; however, he did a lot to build it up.

00:05:20	JW, Max Lagally and David Larbalestier developed a strategic plan for the program.  A search for a new dean was in progress at the time, and they decided to have a copy of the plan on the new dean's desk the day he started.  The dean, John Bollinger, reacted favorably to the plan.

00:05:52	JW discusses the report’s recommendations, which dealt with many issues, among them staff increases, allocation of more space in the engineering research building to the program, recruitment of students, program organization, and equipment needed in the future.  The Materials Science program served as a model for future programs.

00:08:00	The program developed an industrial consortium.  JW, Lagally and others visited different industries around the country and invited them, for a modest $10,000 donation, to an annual meeting so they could keep abreast of advances in materials science.  They also were introduced to potential recruits.  This program was very successful, and at one point eight to ten companies were enrolled.  Some companies paid their fee in equipment instead of cash.

00:10:15	While the Materials Science program got federal grants, it rarely got research group grants.  There were several research programs that were spinoffs of the program, for example the Thin Film Deposition Center and the Center for X-Ray Lithography.

00:10:55	JW’s appointment in the program was 50 per cent (approximately 40 hours per week).  He continued to teach and conduct research throughout his involvement with the program.  Jim Taylor from Chemistry succeeded JW as chair.  There has recently been a review of the program, and JW believes it could merge with the Department of Materials Science & Engineering.  There are several other materials science programs in the country.  JW points out, however, that about 40 to 45 per cent of all American materials science degrees are granted by programs in the upper Midwest.

00:14:21	JW talks about his involvement with Sematech (semiconductor manufacturing technology).  It is a consortium of electronics companies formed at least ten years ago in response to fears that the U.S. electronics industry was losing its competitive edge—not only to the Japanese but also to the Pacific Rim countries.  Thus its goal is to enhance American competitiveness.  Sematech announced it was going to build a model manufacturing facility somewhere in the U.S.  Governor Tommy Thompson decided that Wisconsin should compete for the facility and asked the Wisconsin Department of Development to look into putting a proposal together.  Since no one in the Department of Development knew anything about semiconductors or micro-electronics, it asked the University to become involved.

00:16:34	The Sematech issue eventually landed on JW’s desk.  He and his colleagues felt that Sematech already knew where it wanted to locate and that developing a proposal would be a waste of time.  Since they did not want to be the ones to say no to the Governor, they suggested hiring a consultant to evaluate the situation.  Robert McIntosh, an insider in the electronics industry, was hired.  He concluded that UW would be quite competitive.

00:20:24	Sematech selected five finalists, one of which was UW.  UW ended up placing second to the University of Texas at Austin.  Texas was chosen because it had a vacant building ready to be occupied and UW did not.  Still, Sematech contributed money to UW’s program in x-ray lithography.  JW thinks UW’s Center for X-ray Lithography is the best university-based program of its kind in the country.

00:24:17	Sematech has contributed several million dollars over the years to the Center.  At one point, it received up to $10 million per year.  JW relates how the Center was able to obtain a valuable piece of equipment from the Italian government.

00:30:34	End of side.

Tape 3/Side 2

00:30:37	The Center for X-Ray Lithography, which is located in Stoughton, was started by JW, Henry Guckel and Taylor.  Guckel served as director the first year.  He was replaced by Franco Cerrina, who has been the director ever since.  JW discusses Cerrina’s background. 

00:32:44	JW talks about his tenure as associate dean for research in the College of Engineering.  His predecessor was Camden Coberly, director of the Engineering Experiment Station.  JW thinks the Engineering Experiment Station was established under former dean Robert Marshall to be the administrative home of programs that did not fit entirely into any one department.  The Station contained a computer center, most of the interdepartmental programs, the Instrumentation Systems Center, etc.

00:35:25	As chairman of the Materials Science program, JW worked a good deal with Coberly.  Coberly was very good at helping people make links with industry and other units on campus.  He also encouraged interdisciplinary and interdepartmental work.

 00:36:50	In 1986, Bollinger restructured parts of the Engineering Experiment Station.  JW later learned from Bollinger that he discovered there were some problems associated with it.  The first was that there were a substantial number of industrial research grants that had never been collected from companies.  In other words, the faculty had made a proposal to a company to conduct a research project, the company approved it and agreed to a budget, the Engineering Experiment Station opened an account with that amount of money in it, and the people who proposed the project spent the money.  However in some cases the Engineering Experiment Station’s bureaucracy never got around to billing the company; therefore, it never received payment from the company.  Bollinger discovered almost a million dollars in uncollectible debts.  He discussed the issue with the central campus budget office and obtained a loan to correct the situation.

00:39:31	Another issue Bollinger and JW dealt with was the way the Instrumentation System Center was being subsidized.  The faculty resented the Center because of the space it occupied and because it appeared to have “an inside track” with Coberly and the administration.  Bollinger and JW discovered that the College was indirectly subsidizing the Center.  The Center was eventually phased out for this and other reasons.  Most faculty do not know why the Center was phased out.  The reaction to its closing was mixed.

00:42:05	Before Bollinger became dean, there was a virtual shadow government in operation in the College.  Marshall, Coberly, Norm Huston, Clayton Smith and others were the key decision makers and allocators for the College.  Several of them were brought in as members of the Engineering Experiment Station, which gave them an amorphous existence within the College.
	
00:45:50	When Bollinger became dean, he eliminated the Engineering Experiment Station as an administrative entity, clarified the reporting lines and the role of the associate dean, and placed all budget authority in his office.  JW dealt with research program issues and managed the staff of the research support services.  He had a fair degree of latitude and influence in the allocations of some of the support funds within the College.  Bollinger, however, always made the final decisions on all budget items.

00:47:49	JW suspects that Bollinger chose him as associate dean because he thought the Materials Science program was successful and because they got along well.  JW does not remember a search for the position.  He does remember Bollinger approaching him informally and asking him if he would be interested.  He was not really interested in getting into administration.  JW was not aware of the problems discussed above until after he was made associate dean and had a chance, along with Bollinger, to examine the situation.

00:49:13	Bollinger felt that Marshall was not interested in the details of the budget.  Marshall delegated many of the budget responsibilities to Coberly, who in turn delegated a certain amount of budgetary responsibility to other people, including Smith.  Bollinger thought this budget delegation process almost guaranteed problems, since no one person was completely in charge.  One of the changes Bollinger made was to strip Smith of some of the power and authority he had under Coberly and Marshall.  If Smith has a weakness, JW says, it is that he trusts everyone, even after they have given him reason not to.

00:51:45	As associate dean, JW spent much time working on assignments dealing with space and remodeling.  As far as program development is concerned, he worked hard at getting the various departments to take strategic planning seriously.  To this end, Bollinger started taking the College’s departmental chairs and associate deans on an annual retreat to discuss plans for the College.  He ordered the chairs to develop strategic plans.  They had no idea what he meant, so they did not comply.  When they had not developed a strategic plan by the third year, Bollinger developed one for them.  They did not like this, so they started making modifications to it.  By the end of the process, they had some ownership in the plan.  JW also helped a number of units form industrial consortiums. 

00:56:01	JW discusses changes in funding patterns in the College during his years there.  Most of the changes were necessitated by changes in federal funding priorities.  When he arrived on campus in 1975, the College was largely staffed by faculty who had been hired in the immediate post-war years.  They were not trained to do research.  When they retired, they were replaced by people who aggressively sought research funding.

00:58:59	End of side.  End of tape.

Tape 4/Side 1

00:59:03	JW continues his discussion of engineering education in the years immediately following World War II.

01:01;36	JW’s administrative style is open and participatory.  He tries to avoid micro managing, since he believes that approach could destroy initiative.  JW likes to do the analysis-driven activities himself.

01:03:18	JW discusses an article he co-authored on establishing confidence limits for rank ordering.  He and his co-author addressed the problem analytically through computer simulations to establish confidence limits for rankings.  They have a website that posts confidence limits for the ranking of every single Ph.D. program.

01:06:20	He is working on a second paper which, using a mathematical model, examines how departments change ethnic or gender composition as a function of time under various assumptions.  It is essentially an analytic model of affirmative action.

01:06:46	In July 1989, JW was chosen to replace Robert Bock as dean of the Graduate School.  Bock had served as dean for 22 years.  Once again, JW was a reluctant candidate.

01:08:13	JW was interviewed by the search committee and discussed his concerns about the Graduate School.  He told the committee he was not interested in the deanship.  Despite this, Chancellor Shalala offered him the job, which he reluctantly accepted.

01:10:22	End of side.  End of tape.  End of second interview.

THIRD INTERVIEW
	
First Interview Session (May 18, 1999): Tapes 5-6

Tape 5/Side 1								

00:00:02	When JW was in the College of Engineering (COE), he did not have much contact with Graduate School Dean Robert Bock.  He had frequent contact with the Graduate School, however, because he chaired the Materials Science program in addition to being associate dean for research in the COE.  This contact usually involved student admissions and fellowships.

00:01:31	JW and Max Lagally were once confronted by Bock because they had referred to the Gourman Report, a widely cited ratings service, in a recruitment brochure for the Materials Science program.  JW now agrees with Bock’s negative assessment of the Report.  This was JW’s introduction to program rankings, a subject which has interested him ever since.

00:03:47	In the 1980s there was a general feeling on campus that the Graduate School was too bureaucratic.  One example was dissertation margins rules.  Dissertation margins were carefully measured by the Graduate School, and if they were the least bit off students were required to retype their dissertations.  JW relaxed these and other rules after becoming Graduate School dean.

00:09:12	JW had the impression that Bock did not like or respect Donna Shalala, the new chancellor.  Shalala focused on fund raising and relationships with the governor, the legislature and System administration.  She delegated the internal operation of the University to her subordinates.  After appointing JW as the Graduate School dean, she told him she wanted the complaints about rigid rules to stop.

00:11:42	JW did not apply for the deanship; several people nominated him.  He had no interest in the job, and at his interview he told the search and screen committee his concerns about the Graduate School.

00:12:58	Despite this, Shalala offered him the job.  He told her why he did not want it, but she convinced him to accept it anyway.  During their talk, Shalala painted a picture of a new team entering an exciting period of change and renewal.
	
00:15:10	JW’s goal was to “humanize” the Graduate School by bringing human judgment into the decision-making process.

00:23:25	When JW became dean, the key staff members were Mareda Weiss, Marvin Ebel and Eric Rude.  JW required the staff to prepare annual calendars of deadlines and time lines because he was concerned about meeting report and notification deadlines.  Weiss and Ebel essentially told him to relax and let them do their jobs the way they had always done them, and JW heeded their advice.

00:24:41	The Graduate School is organized by divisions, with a half-time faculty associate dean for each division.  Ebel was associate dean for the physical sciences, a position he had held for several years.  Weiss was the associate dean for administration.  Rude concentrated on research funding operations.

00:27:50	JW’s administrative strength is more as a leader than a manager.  He considers himself a good agent for change.  JW’s first management experience was working for John Bollinger in the College of Engineering.

00:30:21	End of side.

Tape 5/Side 2

00:30:22	Bollinger wanted to introduce a corporate model into the College of Engineering, though most opposed the measure.  Bollinger insisted that the departments and College proceed in serious strategic planning.  JW supported this idea and believes it works.

00:33:35	After moving to the Graduate School, JW was introduced to Total Quality Management (TQM).  If you strip it of its jargon, it is nothing more than common sense: it is fact-based decision making and thoughtful planning.

00:34:32	Michael Williamson was involved in city and state TQM efforts.  He supported JW because he considered him a proponent of TQM.  Both Shalala and Provost David Ward supported TQM.

00:36:34	Shortly after being named dean, JW arranged an Arboretum retreat for his staff to develop a strategic plan for the Graduate School.  Two important projects were launched.  The first was aimed at improving mail delivery within the Graduate School.

00:42:47	The second project discussed at the retreat was revising the Graduate School admissions process.  The average time between application for admission and notification was 90 days.  Berkeley, on the other hand, made its decision in only five days.  The entire process was analyzed and flow charted, and the waiting period was cut from 90 to between 15 and 20 days.  The Graduate School completed its work in the application process in three days.

00:53:02	Very few people in the Graduate School were equipped with computers when JW became dean.  One of his first decisions was to introduce computers into the Graduate School for all its operations.  Jane Fox was hired for this purpose.

00:55:21	JW and all of the associate deans had their offices on the third floor of Bascom Hall.  The second floor was devoted entirely to admissions, fellowships and student affairs.  Under Bock’s deanship there was little interaction between the two floors.  JW changed that in part by initiating all-staff meetings.

01:01:03	End of side.  End of tape.

Tape 6/Side 1
	
01:01:06	JW’s style contrasted with Bock’s, who held few staff meetings and preferred working with a small group of trusted associates.

01:04:50	Alfred Hampton, who headed the College of Engineering’s minorities program, helped the Materials Science program recruit minority students.  Akbar Ally, an assistant dean in the Graduate School, also helped out.

01:06:45	The year before JW became dean, Shalala instituted the Madison Plan, which was aimed at bringing more diversity to campus.  Shortly after JW became dean, Paul Barrows joined his staff.  Barrows was primarily responsible for revising the way Advanced Opportunity fellowship monies were handled.  

01:09:58	The percentage of minority students enrolled as graduate students nearly doubled in the five to six years after the announcement of the Madison Plan.  The Graduate School worked closely with departments, which were encouraged to match Advanced Opportunity fellowship grants.

01:11:43	JW discusses a black female National Science Foundation fellowship winner from Spelman College who quit the graduate program in Chemical Engineering because of poor treatment by her advisor.

01:13:24	The Graduate School had an integrated view toward the recruitment, retention and graduation of minority students.  It tried to pay attention to all aspects of the process and approached it in the same analytical way as other things.

01:15:26	While many departments cooperated in this effort, there were—and still are—some that give all their fellowship money to white students and then obtain Advanced Opportunity fellowship money, which is state money, for their minority students.  Wisconsin was among the first states to provide state tax payer money for targeted minority and disadvantaged students at the graduate level.  

01:17:31	Barrows, Ally and Mercile Lee worked for many years to establish contacts with minority colleges.  As a result, UW has faculty and student exchange programs with several of these schools.

01:19:40	End of side.  End of tape.  End of interview session.

Second Interview Session (May 27, 1999): Tapes 7-8

Tape 7/Side 1

00:00:02	JW explains how Graduate School associate deans are chosen.  They act on behalf of the dean, mostly in the area of research support.

00:03:59	JW discusses the biological sciences associate deanship and explains why it  is more complex than the others.

00:05:45	When JW was appointed dean of the Graduate School, the associate deans were Marvin Ebel for the physical sciences, Dean O. Smith for the biological sciences, Barbara Stallings for the social sciences and Ed Black, who was just completing his term, for the humanities.   JW chose Charles Reed to replace Black.  There were several problems in the animal research area which required immediate attention, and Janet Greger was chosen to deal with them.

00:08:42	JW discusses Ebel and his strengths as associate dean.  Ebel had a national reputation for his expertise on the calculation of indirect costs.  He was also a nationally recognized expert on research administration, which is the detailed work that must be done to satisfy federal regulations.

00:12:53	Reed served as associate dean for the humanities throughout JW’s Graduate School deanship.  Smith and Greger worked together as associate deans for the biological sciences.  JW views the biological sciences associate deanship as a “burn out” position.  The scientists in the biological sciences are more competitive than and not as understanding as those working in the social sciences and humanities.

00:15:22	Faculty members in the biological sciences division believed that Smith did not understand the division anymore and was not effective, so JW replaced him even though he was doing a good job.  Greger assumed Smith’s responsibilities as well as her own, but eventually she was replaced for the same reason as Smith.  Greger was blunt and outspoken, and JW believes that her style and possibly sexism may have contributed to her problems.  Graduate School Dean Virginia Hinshaw eventually replaced Greger with Timothy Mulcahy, who is very diplomatic.  Martin Cadwallader has been effective as associate dean for the social sciences.

00:27:20	The Synchotron Radiation Center (SRC), which produces ultraviolet light and X-rays for research purposes, is located in Stoughton and has a small operating budget.  Still, in terms of research output, it matches other similar labs with much larger budgets.  The Physical Sciences Laboratory (PSL), which is independent from the SRC, is a service unit that pays its own way, often by providing services to the SRC.  Because of its small budget, the PSL is vulnerable to business slumps.  JW removed the PSL’s director, Murray Thompson, for a variety of reasons.  Ebel served as director on an interim basis, and Terrence Millar took over Ebel’s duties as associate dean on an interim basis.

00:30:30	End of side.

Tape 7/Side 2

00:30:32	Millar was eventually named permanent associate dean.  He is a very creative, hard worker who is an asset to the Graduate School.

00:32:45	The occasional friction that arose among the associate deans was a result of Greger’s blunt, confrontational style; otherwise they got along extremely well.  JW notes some reasons for Greger’s combativeness.

00:34:03	The dean of the Graduate School is the primary campus contact person with WARF because the Graduate School administers research funds.  Part of WARF’s success may be attributed to its independence from the University and state government.  The trustees determine how much WARF money UW receives every year for research.  They also consider requests for “special needs.”

00:38:34	WARF funding accounted for about four per cent of UW’s annual gross research expenditures during JW’s years as dean, or about 15 to 20 million dollars annually.  Peers conduct the reviews for WARF grants.

00:42:31	Every division is treated equally and there are no biases toward the “hard” versus the “soft” sciences.  Recently, the Graduate School has been able to fund about 40 per cent of the grant proposals submitted to WARF.  In the sciences, the money is used mostly to support graduate students and buy equipment and supplies.  In the social sciences and humanities, it is used primarily for faculty summer salary.

00:49:18	Robert Bock often complained that WARF should give the Graduate School more money than it did.  The reality was that the WARF Board, a conservative group, was putting more money in investments than Bock thought it should.  Because of its prudence, WARF now has an investment portfolio of over a billion dollars.  This is by far the campus’s biggest endowment.  Instead of complaining like Bock, JW focused on giving the WARF Board detailed reports on the exciting research being conducted with WARF money.

00:53:21	Previously, Bock had attended WARF Board meetings by himself.  Donna Shalala became more actively involved with WARF.  She initiated an annual dinner with the WARF Board.  The Board has responded enthusiastically to the new approach initiated by Shalala, JW and others.

00:56:05	Initially, the number of departments on campus that seemed to overlap each other startled JW.  He concluded that the University could improve its competitiveness if it merged some of the smaller departments.

00:57:35	End of side.  End of tape.

Tape 8/Side 1

00:57:42	The Graduate School managed to merge some of these departments, but not as many as JW thought it should.  In hindsight, he believes there are advantages to “healthy duplication.”  He realizes now the departments’ focus is sufficiently different.

01:03:24	Having these different departments is also helpful in the area of spousal hires, because it offers more options for placement.  The System administration has helped to avoid duplicate programs by prohibiting doctoral programs in all state schools except UW-Madison and UW-Milwaukee.

01:07:56	The Graduate School consolidated several degree programs during JW’s deanship.  He explains how degree programs can be added.  It is a lengthy process that can take several years to complete.  JW discusses two programs that are now under five-year review.

01:15:17	According to the latest issue of The Chronicle of Higher Education, the National Science Foundation is being encouraged to stop insisting that universities receiving NSF funding cost share.  Cost sharing was a problem when JW became dean, and it worsened throughout his deanship.  

01:16:45	Stanford University was at the center of a nationwide controversy over indirect costs.  This resulted in an effort to revise the indirect cost recovery process which would have been harmful to every university in the country.  Ebel played a key role in working out a satisfactory compromise.

01:19:21	The Association of Graduate Schools is made up of schools that grant graduate degrees.  JW believes the organization is too big to be helpful to UW.  The Council of Graduate Schools, on the other hand, is made up exclusively of graduate school deans. Although criticized as elitist, the organization addresses many issues important to UW.

01:22:01	When the National Science Foundation was founded, the federal government paid the full cost of the research it funded.  NSF paid indirect costs, such as building upkeep, as well.  However over time, universities began paying part of the indirect cost.  Federal agencies soon began to expect universities to assume part of the cost, which led to the practice of cost sharing.  The federal government began to pressure UW to use indirect cost money or WARF money to cost share.  JW is pleased that the issue is finally being addressed.

01:28:50	Most college and department rating systems are almost worthless.  The National Research Council, on the other hand, publishes its ranking every ten years.  This ranking is systematic, respectable and helpful.

01:31:24	End of side.

Tape 8/Side 2
		
01:33:31	JW employed a recent graduate of the Mathematics Department to work with him on numerical simulations of the college and departmental rankings of the National Research Council.  He posted the results on a web page.  Information presented in the more popular rankings sources, such as Newsweek, is often inaccurate and given more credence that it deserves.

01:39:15	The best job on campus is being a faculty member.  The second best job is being dean of the Graduate School.

01:40:33	End of side.  End of tape.  End of third interview.

FOURTH INTERVIEW

December 16, 2005: Tape 9

Tape 9/Side 1

00:00:05	John D. Wiley talks about first using the electron microprobe while doing research for his thesis.

00:03:20	He wrote up a user’s manual for the microprobe.

00:03:44	JW thinks the probe was located in a store front building on University Avenue.

00:05:02	Use of computers.

00:05:19	JW started using the microprobe in 1966.

00:06:15	He used bulk samples polished on both sides.  He describes his research method.

00:07:06	JW discusses his research in detail.

00:11:52	He and Fournelle discuss the use of the microprobe.

00:20:14	The Sterling Hall bombing later destroyed the labs in which he worked.

00:21:32	End of side.  End of tape.  End of fourth interview.

FIFTH INTERVIEW

First Interview Session (June 13, 2008): 

00:00:00	Introduction

00:00:45	Wiley has difficulty separating his time as Dean of Graduate School, Provost, and Chancellor.  He explained why, including that John Torphy, David Ward, Donna Shalala, and Wiley became “one continuous team” through Shalala’s and Ward’s times as Chancellors.  Wiley was asked by Ward to be interim Provost; Wiley accepted the post (1993-1994) but really wanted to return to Dean of Graduate School.  Ward asked Wiley to put his name in to be permanent Provost, in case Ward’s search failed.  After the job search, Ward asked Wiley to be Provost.  After Ward left Wiley became Chancellor.  Wiley said he felt that he was finishing up Shalala’s and Ward’s terms.

00:04:00	Read asked Wiley to discuss “cluster hires,” which Ward and Wiley used to try to build back up the faculty.  Wiley noted they went to WARF, UW Foundation, and Governor Thompson, for help in hiring 100 to 150 positions.  Ward and Wiley got $15 million ($5 million each) a year to hire 100 to 150 professors a year.  The state offered $5 million the first biennial budget but cut funding thereafter.  The WARF & UW Foundation money has held, meaning there is $10 guaranteed each year to hire new faculty.  They asked campus people to list their priorities in hiring new faculty.  This program has led to 100 more faculty; Wiley gave some examples of these new hires, how they cut across colleges/programs.

00:08:30	Read asked if other universities have picked up on this idea; Wiley thought so.  Read then asked about any controversy around this type of hiring, particularly criticism from Deans.  Wiley noted that he and Ward devised a strategy to implement this change.  Ward & Wiley figured that department would want to “clone” a recently retired professor.  Ward and Wiley went to the interdepartmental groups to see where their needs existed.  After myriad meetings with these groups, they went to the Faculty Senate and got their approval.  The Deans’ concern that their college would be underrepresented has not been seen.  The remaining controversy has arisen with when a cluster hire does leave the job does return to the Provost’s office.

00:13:00	Read thought that Ward & Wiley made a close-knit team.  Wiley returned to his Deanship under Shalala.  Shalala did not micromanage the campus; she focused on outreach and fundraising, among other things.  In this relationship Ward became the campus COO, and Wiley and Torphy did not fuss over the organizational chart; they knew what their job was or would be if Chancellor or Provost took leave.  When asked about his thoughts about being Provost, Wiley felt that job was hard to leave at the office; he gave an example by discussing nearly two dozen misconduct allegations that he oversaw.  Those cases wore him down.  Wiley thought Dean of Graduate School gave him the most fun, meeting with interesting people and discussing interesting topics.

00:17:30	Read asked Wiley about Ward’s large Tuesday morning meetings, which focused on keeping up-to-date on current, big-picture events.  Wiley listed the type of folks who would attend those meetings, noting that depending on topic, other folks would attend.  Wiley called it a “Crisis Management or Crisis Avoidance” group.  Read asked about Wiley’s chief of staff, Casey Nagy, who came to Wiley from the university’s legal staff.  Read asked Wiley what new jobs came to him when he became Provost.  Wiley talked about his work in fundraising, giving one specific example of inviting members of the Bascom Hill Society to a March meeting, somewhere in the U.S. Sunbelt.  The meeting included lectures by faculty/senior staff and has been always successful.

00:22:00	While Provost Wiley and Ward dealt with turnover in leadership at the Graduate School.  Wiley noted the progression (Read, Virginia Hinshaw, then current Dean Martin Cadwallader) and the way Wiley and Ward dealt with the hiring.  Some of the turnover was natural and other was more tumultuous.  Wiley talked about two of more tumultuous ones in CALS and Human Ecology.  Technically, the Chancellor does need no reason to release a Dean, along as the Chancellor’s reason does meet a legal threshold.  Wiley also detailed other issues with other Deans/Directors in other colleges.

00:29:30	Read commented on the number of allegations during this time.  Wiley postulated that new campus rules required the Provost to act on every allegation or conflict of interest cases.  Wiley offered a primer on the campus rules regarding a relationship where one person does report to the other.  According to Wiley fewer complaints probably meant that both the rules are being followed and also that people engaging in inappropriate relationship are being very careful.

00:33:15	Read noted that the rules’ strength does lie in its consistency.  Wiley agreed, saying that most prosecutions have occurred with high-level people.  Read asked about the change from the intellectual stimulation as graduate school dean to different issues as Provost.  Wiley agreed but recalled a time during as Provost, when he (though UW—Madison) helped to build WIYN Telescope in Arizona.  Wiley served on the board for the telescope’s building.  He also became involved in the building of telescopes in South Africa and the South Pole.  

00:36:30	Read asked if Wiley wanted to discuss his time as Chancellor.  Wiley returned to the idea that these jobs have melded in his mind; he gave an example of a recent meeting regarding the company, TomoTherapy, which made him think back to a past meeting about this company, which he could not recall whether it came during his Deanship or Provost.  This thought led Read to ask about the rise of stem cell research on campus.  Wiley talked about the hire of Jamie Thomson, including his initial request to get release time to work on stem cell research and his concern that his family might get death threats due to his research.  Wiley then offered another anecdote about stem cells: he read an article about stem cells where the writer noted that UW—Madison’s stem cell contribution was “small and isolated.” Wiley smiled because he knew that Thomson’s research would be published soon to make UW—Madison’s contribution neither small nor isolated.

00:43:00	Wiley said that scientists will reach out to him to show and/or tell him about their recent breakthroughs.  He gave two specific examples of seeing scientific breakthroughs right after they happened.  Read then asked about some reorganizations in science during Wiley’s time as Provost.  Wiley said that they never created a College of Biology, which some biologists clamored for.  He did note some reorganization within science, including moving applicable programs closer to the Medical School from central campus.  Read asked about another big proposed change, the east campus corridor, aligned with the arts.  Wiley discussed the Provost’s involvement in the campus planning committee, which started with his involvement in the Graduate School.  He moved that responsibility from Dean to Provost, because he wanted to push hard for the east campus corridor.  Once he became Chancellor, he gave up leadership on the campus planning committee but still fought for a the corridor, which will stretch—when finished—from Memorial Union to the Kohl Center or even Regent Street.

00:50:00	Read asked Wiley about his “equal enthusiasm” for the sciences and the arts, including building up the physical structures involved in both and keeping those two interests together.  Wiley felt that arts and humanities are as vital as science and engineering, focusing on the ethical issues involved in recent and future scientific and biological feats, that have occurred here on UW—Madison’s campus.  Wiley said that the “humanists” can assist the scientist and biologist in answering the tough questions around how best does one implement (or does one implement) new technologies, both biological and technological.  Wiley returned to the idea that biologists and engineers must work with humanists when these “science fictions” turn into “science reality,” because all new technologies have constructive and destructive characteristics.  

00:58:45	Read followed up on Wiley’s previous comments, asking him whether other Chancellors have the same issues as Wiley.  Wiley said that in meetings with other Chancellors the set agendas leave little time to grapple the deeper questions/issues.  He did mention that current/recent Chancellors at Michigan & MIT probably felt as Wiley does about the relationship between scientists and humanists.  After a pause Read asked a question about Wiley’s transition from Provost to Chancellor.  Wiley said that at least a couple years before Ward stepped down as Chancellor he (Wiley) had pondered his future, because he had been out of teaching/advising for 7-10 years.  And engineering does move fast, meaning he could not catch up.  Wiley admitted that when Ward first asked him about being Chancellor, he (Wiley) did not know if he wanted it.  In his pondering he realized that if he did not put his name in for Chancellor, he probably could not stay as Provost.  And if he ran for Chancellor and did not get the job, he probably would not stay as Provost.  In either of these scenarios, he probably would leave Madison to find another job in academic administration.  So, Wiley posited that the best path would be to run to Chancellor.

01:04:45	When Wiley became Chancellor, he asked Gary Sandefur to be interim Provost.  Sandefur accepted but did not want to be permanent Provost.  Peter Speer became the first non-interim Provost under Wiley.  Wiley offered his thoughts on Speer’s background and the relationship between the two of them before Speer became Provost.  Wiley felt Speer worked well as a Provost, but Speer’s management style rubbed his colleagues the wrong way.  Speer retired and moved to Arizona.  Virginia Shapiro then served as interim Provost but not shortlisted as a finalist for the position.  Wiley felt the hiring committee’s treatment of Shapiro was unfair.  After a pause Wiley discussed the polarizing effect of Shapiro, meaning the people who liked her really liked her.  Wiley compared Shapiro’s effect on people to Chancellor Shalala’s on people.  Wiley then noted that Shapiro’s style never affected him; he looked for content over style.  He then briefly mentioned his quality of being almost impossible to insult, which Read noted as a good quality in a Chancellor.  

01:10:15	Read returned to the friction between Speer and his colleagues, particularly Darrell Bazzell.  When Read posited that the friction could have arisen from lack of clarity in job descriptions, Wiley agreed.  Wiley then elaborated on how a hierarchy or lack of one can affect greatly colleagues’ relationship.  In this case Wiley, Speer, and Bazzell battled over who controlled the university’s budget.  Read then asked Wiley to put the key administrative people into “teams.” Wiley talked about some of the Vice Chancellors/Deans and how the working title does not always equate to their official titles.  This led Wiley and Read to discuss the “lean” number of UW—Madison administrators.

01:15:30	Wiley focused on the former Vice Chancellor of Legal Affairs title.  The woman hired by Shalala served through Shalala’s, Ward’s, and part of Wiley’s tenure.  During Wiley’s tenure he entered a “constitutional crisis” regarding this person and her position, when this chief legal officer of UW—Madison sued Wiley for gender discrimination.  Wiley needed legal counsel, but he could not use his legal counsel, because she was suing him.  Wiley then moved the position into a director’s position to alleviate future conflict.

01:20:15	Read returned the conversation to the small number of administrators at UW—Madison.  Wiley argued it as a good thing.  Wiley gave an example of The Ohio State University and their multiple L&S colleges and the multiple deans.  Wiley “consulted” for them, offering them the idea of consolidating their five L&S deans into one; OSU chose to add a six “superdean” in charge of all their L&S deans.  Wiley and Read then discussed the relationship between the legislature and UW—Madison, specifically in regards to the number of administrators.  Wiley felt proud, for the most part, that the central campus was “under administered.” He did offer an example on places on campus, such as L&S, where he would inject more administration, if he could get away with it. 

01:25:15	Read asked about the relationship between Wiley and state government, especially the legislature.  Wiley then offered his personal analysis, noting that other people would view this relationship differently.  Wiley started with the note that UW—Madison’s budget has not been raised during his tenure and with the idea that perhaps Wisconsin’s Corrections (prisons) budget could fall more in line with Minnesota’s.  Wiley then noted that the legislature, during this time, did not raise the university’s budget, because the university, they felt, could raise tuition.  Wiley then focused on how the legislators, particularly the Republicans, argued that the UW system would be fine if they would just cut the “administrative bloat.” And they worked to fine minor examples of bloat to show to the public.  Wiley then noted three specific legislators who made their legislative bones by bashing the legislature.  Wiley also described one legislative aide who has attacked Chancellor “Biddy” Martin before she had served one day.  He also offered other examples of how these three legislators would “scream” at anything UW related.  

01:33:30	Wiley pivoted the conversation to how the media perceived UW through the “anger” of the legislature.  Wiley did note a 1 million dollar budget cut targeted specifically one of Wiley’s actions.  This led Read and Wiley to discuss the state’s budget deficit, where Wiley focused on the budget deficit will only be reduced through rewriting the tax code, specifically the exemptions under the personal income tax.  Read then asked Wiley if he thought that UW’s minds could assist in pulling Wisconsin out from this deficit.  Wiley then described a 2003 UW summit, which was coined “The Gray Beard Committee,” which created, as an exercise, a new tax code for Wisconsin.  Wiley furnished his memories of this code; Wiley noted that recently a legislator wanted to meet with him to push this new tax code.

01:39:00	Read asked Wiley if he felt difficulties in meeting with the legislature on budget issues when he understood their constraints.  Wiley had no problem petitioning the legislature on the university’s monetary issues.  The legislature, according to Wiley, could make a choice what to fund; it was his role to lobby for UW—Madison.  Read asked Wiley about the relationship between UW—Madison and the UW System.  Wiley said the relationship had improved; he noted he would be the last Chancellor to have gone to school here when there was no system.  After offering a brief overview of the UW System’s history, he noted that he re-arrived on campus as a professor under the fledgling UW System.  He explained the initial rumblings against the system by others.  He thought the System benefitted UW—Madison and prevented “mission creep.” He did note that the System has discriminated against UW—Milwaukee and explained why.  Read asked about advocacy between UW System and UW—Madison.  Wiley felt that this relationship had not worked as well.  The System, by definition, has always been a bureaucracy, which has limited the type of person who worked for it. 

01:46:00	Read asked Wiley about his comment that in politics perception has become the reality.  Wiley offered an example about expanding the university golf course, because of its increased use.  They proposed this during a tough budget cycle; an Assembly member killed it, even though the course would not cost any state funds.  The university lobbied the golf course back into the budget, once the cameras turned off.  But this example led Wiley to describe in detail what he meant when he said that in WI politics perception has become reality.  Wiley has argued in the legislature for the university’s reality, because he could care less about their perception.

01:50:15	Read shifted the interview to student issues during Wiley’s tenure.  Wiley felt the biggest student issue became access, meaning improving the student’s quality of life.  Wiley offered some statistics and examples on how UW—Madison has succeeded in making it a desirable location for students.  This success has led to many more students to apply than the university can accept.  And it has led to a negative public perception, “Why can’t my kid get in[to UW—Madison]?”  The university has tried to detail the other ways the students can eventually matriculate here.  Wiley then focused on the alcohol issue on campus.  He noted that UW—Madison has had a higher binge drinking percentage than other campuses, which could be linked to Wisconsin’s alcohol culture.  Wiley then discussed the student activism, noting that he felt sorry that today’s students did not grow up on campus during the Vietnam Era.  Wiley said that there are issues that students can and do rally around, but these issues only have a limited number of dedicated activists.  So, the activists join each others’ causes to try to bring a respectable number of students to any rally.  When Read asked why Iraq has not equated to Vietnam, Wiley noted the lack of a draft.

01:56:45	Read asked Wiley about 9/11/2001.  Wiley offered his memories of that day; he and other UW folks were in California at a fund raising event.  They were getting ready to return to Wisconsin, when they realized that they would not be flying home that day.  (Wiley noted that Paula Bonner, who went to California on this trip, made it out of California.  But the government forced her plane to land in Las Vegas, stranding her there.)  Wiley and those on the trip drove from Santa Barbara to Los Angeles, thinking they could get out from LA easier.  Wiley explained how it felt to wait in LA with virtually nothing to do but wait.  After a few days, Wiley went to Hertz to ask for a car on to take on a one-way trip; initially Hertz rebuffed him.  But Hertz found a Lincoln Town Car for $600 a day; Wiley took it because it was much cheaper than the group’s hotel bill.

02:00:00	Wiley then shifted his 9/11 thoughts to UW—Madison, including the ways to keep students and buildings safer and the effect of the Patriot Act on international students.  Wiley also discussed the changes in keeping the laboratories safe from sabotage, particularly controlling access to the facilities.  Read and Wiley discussed maintaining access for foreign students to the intellectual aspects of campus.  Read and Wiley noted the dilemma of beefing up the security budget in the era of flat-line or declining budgets.    

02:05:00	End of First Session

Second Interview Session (July 8, 2008): 

00:00:00	Introduction

00:00:30	Read began by asking Wiley about major changes during his tenure as Dean, Provost, and Chancellor.  Wiley reminded Read that he looked at his administrative tenure as those three jobs.  Wiley never wanted to work in campus administration; he talked about the complaints he received in the late 1980s about the inefficiency of the graduate school.  He only applied for the job, so he could voice his concerns about the graduate school.  He noted that Donna Shalala proved more persuasive than Wiley counted on.  He talked about the events that culminated in the late 1980s in the need for a sea change in university administration.  Shalala came in and “really shook things up.” Although Wiley has stood behind Shalala and her sweeping changes, he did say that she “polarized” the campus.  Wiley backed Shalala primarily because she wanted the university to have a plan, to pay attention to the details, and to assume that protocols need to be reviewed to make sure they still work.  He offered an example of how registration was not automated when Shalala arrived.  It took her awhile to get that done.

00:05:00	Wiley discussed how Shalala met resistance on every one of her changes until she drew a line in the sand.  In the example of registration, it moved to telephone then to computer, which improved the process and the cost.  Wiley offered some of Shalala’s mantras, including that university should not be mistaken for a corporation.  But there are ways it can be run like one.  Wiley and Read discussed some of Wiley’s early days at the Graduate School, because Read became one of Wiley’s first hires, in terms of the process improvement.  Wiley then noted that since Shalala’s tenure, every major group has implemented strategic planning.  And Wiley had kept a long scroll attached to a wall, noting all the campus groups that have worked with administration on long-range planning.  Wiley stated that without this planning UW—Madison’s stature would have slipped.  Wiley joked that he “batted clean up” in the Shalala/Ward/Wiley administrations and reminded Read that his chancellorship will be the last where the Chancellor will know life before the UW System.  And “Biddy” Martin will become the start of a new era of Chancellors.  Although Wiley did note that Martin will understand that she has inherited this legacy, even though she did not live it.  

00:11:30	Read asked Wiley about how did looking at new procedures affect undergraduates.  Wiley talked about how he and Ward talked to myriad groups on campus, asking them to define their job.  For example, when they talked to the tree trimmers, they said their job was to trim trees.  Wiley and Ward told all these groups that education was their primary job.  Wiley and Ward wanted the buildings and grounds to be educational; Wiley noted that when folks looked at their job through the lens of education it changed their work.  Wiley discussed the self-guided tree walks and the learning communities within dormitories, such as major-based or language-based floors.  Wiley discussed other items implemented that improved undergraduate education, particularly the improvement in graduation rates over time.  Wiley noted the graduation rate for incoming freshman has risen to over 80 percent, and he thought that rate would continue to climb.

00:18:30	Read asked Wiley to discuss faculty/staff retention.  Wiley started by saying he could comment only on the last 20-30 years; he mentioned the competitive nature of retaining a prominent research faculty person.  He listed some of the factors involved in both attracting and keeping quality men and women.  He quoted the mantra: “’A’ faculty hire ‘A’s’; ‘B’ faculty hire C’s.” This quote, for Wiley, meant that high quality professors will bring in other high quality people, which has been how UW—Madison has competed.

00:21:15	Read asked Wiley about other big themes—along with planning—in Wiley’s administrative tenure.  Wiley focused on the composition of our budget, which has moved from primarily state funds and tuition to the biggest “chunks” of funding coming from federal funds, gift and grants, and program revenue (in that order).  Tuition and state support are fourth and fifth on the list.  Wiley then discussed how reality has lagged behind perception, meaning that state government does not understand how small the portion of funding from them does comprise the entire budget.  Wiley then stated that a big frustration stemmed from the relationship between the university and state government over state control over university funds in myriad areas, including new buildings and the state personnel system.  

00:25:30	Read asked if state officials understood how funding has shifted over the last decade or so.  Wiley said the legislature/state government has worked in a different world, the “perception is reality” world.  Wiley felt they have made bad decisions because perception becomes reality, and they have legislated on this perceived reality.  Wiley gave an example on this perceived reality, focusing on an event in the athletic department during Shalala’s tenure.  Wiley stated that if the legislature knows the specifics of UW—Madison’s budget, they do not care.

00:29:45	Wiley talked about academic self-review, specifically in administrative decision making.  Read asked if other major public research institutions were doing what UW—Madison was, specifically in terms of institutional planning.  Wiley said that UW—Madison was ahead of the curve in long-range planning; other campus leaders have come to UW—Madison to see the campus’ Office of Quality Improvement in action.  Read then asked about the changes in funding over time and if that has mirrored other major institutions.  Other similar institutions, according to Wiley, have seen their state funding shrink.  And he noted that international colleges have started to charge tuition.  This led Wiley to ponder the question on how much should parents/students pay and how much should the state pay to educate its citizen.  Wiley stated that students should pay roughly half the cost of their education; he then talked about studying how much a UW—Madison diploma will earn a student.  Wiley told Read that UW—Madison will post a calculator that will show parents/students how much their degree will earn the student during the course of his and her life.  The total earnings are in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, meaning the current tuition, albeit much higher than in the past, stands out as a bargain.  This question, “How much should the public pay for education?” will need to be answered sooner than later.  Wiley concluded this section with the idea that the state would benefit by moving students beyond the high school diploma to a college degree.

00:40:00	Read asked Wiley to “shift gears” and discuss new campus construction.  Wiley started by discussing how administration has moved “bits and pieces” of the medical school, including the hospital itself, to west campus over the last 25 years.  But this move has ramped up during Wiley’s administrative terms.  With those moves they have tried to move colleges/departments into those buildings.  Wiley described the heating/cooling issues on campus, including partnering with Madison Gas & Electric on the West Campus Co-Gen Plant.  Read and Wiley talked about how MG&E can benefit from this partnership.

00:44:30	Read asked Wiley to comment on the University Square project.  Wiley offered an overview of the project, which became a public/private partnership and home to the biggest building in Madison.  The university will benefit in numerous ways, including putting University Health Services in one location.  Wiley called it “a win-win.” Read followed up with a question about any blowback on these public/private collaborations.  Wiley said that some have criticized him for these partnerships, but he felt their arguments rang hollow.

00:47:30	Read then asked Wiley about the new research facilities, such as the Microbial Sciences Building, on campus.  Wiley estimated that 2 billion dollars of construction has been built since the late 1980s.  Wiley noted that 70 percent of those funds have come from non-state sources.  Wiley credited Shalala with this building boom; both new buildings and maintenance of extant buildings was needed.  Shalala wanted to work with private/public funding sources to build and maintain.  Many campus leaders argued against these partnerships, because they wanted the state to fund all new buildings on campus.  Shalala knew that would not happen.  She went to Governor Thompson and pitched this collaboration under the guise of new technology, calling it the FAST (Facilities Advancement for State Technology) Program.  She then allowed Governor Thompson to take over the idea, make it statewide, and called it WISTAR (Wisconsin Initiative for State Technology and Applied Research). Wiley stated the first four campus buildings built under WISTAR.  WISTAR started a building boom and started other collaborations between UW—Madison and the state.  Although most of these projects were supposed to be 50-50, UW—Madison has paid more because all cost overages were paid by the university.

00:52:30	Read asked Wiley to ponder how campus would look if far fewer or none of these buildings were built.  Wiley discussed the newest collaboration, BIOSTAR, where UW—Madison will work with WARF to build more buildings.  And Wiley noted that several building, including some in athletics, were built either entirely with gift funds or with program revenue.  Wiley described all the myriad ways that buildings were built, including Owen House (the President’s House).  Wiley talked about why renovating the President’s House can be risky politically.  Wiley explained how he has renovated Owen House and avoided the political pitfalls.  One critical step became bringing together a committee to review Owen House and recommend to Wiley what would need to be done to Owen House, including possibly tearing it down.  The committee came back to Wiley with the decision that Owen House should be saved.  Wiley then gave the house back to the Owen House trustees, so the renovations could be done without going through state channels.  Wiley ended this story with the idea that the house will be ready summer 2008 and should last for another 100 years.  Read congratulated Wiley on the long, strange trip to get the house back in shape.

00:59:30	Read asked Wiley about any other changing relationship between UW—Madison and the business sector over Wiley’s eighteen years in administration.  Wiley focused on the business community and the relationship with WARF.  Wiley talked about the misconceptions, as well as the valid criticisms, towards WARF.  Wiley talked about two changes: the evolving board of directors at WARF, making it pro-active towards business, including start-ups.  Wiley also discussed focus group meeting that led to the formation of the Office of Corporate Relations.  Wiley described the difference between OCR and its predecessor.  Read then followed up Wiley’s comments to ask Wiley’s thoughts about the importance of biotech companies in changing the business world’s attitude toward UW—Madison and WARF.  Wiley spoke of the number of businesses that began from UW—Madison’s laboratories & ideas from faculty and staff.

00:07:15	When Wiley mentioned the campus research park, Read asked him about the importance of the park.  Wiley discussed that entity, including some news that would be coming about the park in the near future.    Wiley said that along with the park two, which will be built south of the Beltline near Old Sauk Road, there will be a park three, which will be downtown on East Washington.  Wiley explained the importance of a downtown park.  

1:09:00	Read asked Wiley about the deans he has appointed over the last few years.  Wiley felt quite pleased about his dean appointments.  Wiley said that all major priorities of an institution should be hiring quality folks.  Wiley talked about leadership on campus from the mid-19th Century through 1990 were almost all white males.  Wiley discussed the increased diversity in campus leadership over the last 18 years.  Wiley gave credit to Shalala to making sure women and minorities were considered for key positions.  Wiley noted that his successor (“Biddy” Martin) will be the second female chancellor.

01:12:45	Read asked Wiley about changes in technology and athletics.  Wiley talked about the change in technology, including the creation of a campus CIO (chief information officer).  He also spoke of the hiring of Barry Alvarez as AD (athletic director) and several improvements in the athletic department, including their goal to graduate a greater percentage of students than the regular student population.

01:15:00	End of Second Session

Third Interview Session (August 5, 2008): 

00:00:00	Introduction

00:00:30	Read asked Wiley about Wiley’s UW—Madison legacy.  After listing myriad positive results (past, present, and future) of Wiley’s tenure, Read asked Wiley to discuss his most important achievements during his tenure.  Wiley started with the quality of the people, meaning he felt proudest of his appointments.  He talked about the intricacies of the search and screen process, noting overall his hires have done well in their positions.  He returned to the idea that he has been in leadership for almost 20 years in 3 positions, so it has become difficult to cleave the eras.  But this thought led him to discuss the strategic plan, which came during Shalala’s tenure; he said that his specific improvements, such as the cluster hire program, were not big but effective.  Even though he did list the other, including Ward, who contributed to the cluster hire program.

00:06:15	No question. Wiley continued to discuss specific campus improvement that could be primarily attributed to him.  He focused on the planning and implementation of The Wisconsin Institute of Discovery, slated for completion in 2010.  Wiley then detailed the context behind The Institute, including the university’s relationship with Governors Thompson and Doyle.  The BIOSTAR program—Governor Thompson last campus building program—consisted of four science-focused buildings or renovations.  Wiley listed those four buildings, including an inter-disciplinary science building, which was proposed because Thompson wanted 4 buildings.  Wiley then talked with WARF, around its 75th Anniversary, about providing matching funding for those buildings.  WARF would match 3 of the 4 but not the inter-disciplinary science building, because it was “a pig in a poke.” 

00:12:00	No question.  Wiley continued discussion on the inter-disciplinary science building, WID or Wisconsin Institute of Discovery.  Wiley worked with Governor Doyle and the Morgridges to turn the idea of WID into reality.  With the Governor and the Morgridges on board, WARF then joined the team, because it was more now than a pipe dream.  WID, according to Wiley, will offer a location for private research, which offers many benefits for UW—Madison.  So, WID became two institutes—WID and the Morgridge Institute for Research—with the Morgridge part being the loci for private research.

00:16:00	No question. Wiley then discussed the Madison Connections Program.  This program will admit students to UW—Madison, but they must start at another institution first.  Wiley described how the program started small but has burgeoned into many Wisconsin colleges and institutions.  Wiley hoped the program would expand and would continue to be popular, because UW—Madison cannot take any more freshmen and few sophomores.  Wiley and Read talked about the benefits of this program for the students and the other colleges.  Wiley said that if one asked others what benefits “Wiley brought to campus” one would focus on buildings.  Wiley then discussed some specific buildings and some ways UW—Madison worked around the state building protocols, including the University Square project.

00:20:45	No question. Wiley returned to the Owen House renovation project.  Wiley described the deteriorated state of Owen House, which led to the decision to either renovate or raze it.  Since using funds to fix the building would be expensive and controversial, Wiley used created techniques to get the house redone, which should be ready for Chancellor Martin to inhabit later this summer. [Indexer’s note: This anecdote about Owen House does provide more detail and does serve as a nice compliment to the Owen House story in the July interview.]

00:29:00	No question. Wiley moved to the campus master building plan.  This led Read to comment on the changes in this new campus master building plan, which led Wiley to discuss the myriad changes in the building plan from previous ones, including more parking structures (instead of lots) and rain gardens, as well as knowing where the bus routes, possible future rail stops, and all the underground infrastructure will be located.

00:31:00	Read asked Wiley about memorable moments and days.  Wiley said that his most memorable days do seem to revolve around telescopes.  This thought led him to note how his predecessor in the graduate school gave him two valuable pieces of advice but then left Wiley on his own.  His predecessor also told him that one of his first visits would be from the School of Astronomy about a telescope project.  While his predecessor thought the idea was “hare-brained,” Wiley listened to the astronomers and found the idea fascinating, which was basically to craft a telescope around a huge extant mirror, plus build an observatory around it.  Wiley then described how he helped make this vision a reality.  UW—Madison partnered with Indiana and Yale University, then leverage that to get NSF funds.

00:36:00	No question.  Wiley continued his comments regarding the telescope and the partnership.  He marveled at how the telescope was built with minimal problem or delay.  This story led Wiley to discuss another telescope project; this one was in South Africa.  With assistance from WARF, UW—Madison funded nearly 20 percent of the telescope’s creation, giving UW—Madison researchers allotted time to use the telescope and Wiley an opportunity to visit Africa.  Wiley discussed the Neutrino Telescope at the South Pole, or Project Ice Cube.  Wiley offered a detailed overview of that telescope’s history, including why the South Pole became the telescope’s location.  Read reminded Wiley that the NSF grant for Neutrino arose as the large ever given.  At the time of this interview scientists and engineers have moved forward on this project on time and on budget.  Wiley talked about how two car washes have been used on that project for both work and play.

00:45:00	No question.  Wiley continued his discussion of the Neutrino project by describing his one trip to Antarctica to see it firsthand.  Wiley also described the “fanatical” recycling program at the Neutrino project and the reasons for it.  This story led Wiley to discuss two other remarkable science stories he “saw.”  They were seeing created heart tissue in Thomson’s stem cell lab and created skin in another lab.

00:48:30	Read asked Wiley about changes in the arts.  Wiley touched on the School of Music, Theater prorgram, and others.  One of Wiley’s biggest regrets was not being able to renovate the East Campus area fast enough, because the arts/humanities do good work in old, sub-standard buildings.  His biggest regret, however, was not being able to swing the first sledge hammer to start the demolition of the Mosse Humanities Building.  After a pause Wiley talked about an August press conference that announced the expansion of the research park into downtown Madison.  Wiley briefly described the history of the research park, including both the original and future second research campus (on Madison’s Westside) noting that moving downtown might end up as a positive, lasting legacy.  Wiley then focused his words to the history of the building that will become UW—Madison’s downtown research center and his idea with what research that facility will house.

00:56:30	Read asked Wiley to comment on his post-Chancellor days.  Wiley noted that he could not go back to teaching in the College of Engineering; he has moved to the College of Education to teach leadership courses.  He will affiliate with the Robert M. La Follette
School of Public Affairs on public policy issues.  And he has been asked to the interim director of the Wisconsin Institute of Discovery over the next couple of years.  And he will work with WISCAPE. Wiley noted he would move out in a couple of weeks to move into Lathrop Hall to make room for new Chancellor Martin.  Read added a footnote or two about the research park, focusing on how the research park has flourished and benefited the university, the city, and the state.  Wiley agreed and explained why he thought the research facility has moved forward.  Wiley concluded that the research park has made enough “profit” at this time that it can fund itself and give back some money to campus.  Read and Wiley discussed how a cluster of research parks might populate Madison/Dane County.

01:03:00	End of Third Session. End of Interview.

END OF INTERVIEW #516