UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #189
THIEDE, WILSON B.

THIEDE, Wilson B. (1916- )
Undergraduate and Graduate Student; Professor of Continuing and Vocational Education and Curriculum and Instruction; Associate Dean of School of Education
At UW: 1935-39; 1941-42; 1946-49; 1951-83

Interviewed: 1979	
Series: School of Education
Interviewer: Mark Van Pelt
Length: 3 hours

Student experience; School of Education in 1930s; John Guy Fowlkes as dean; Wisconsin High School; Salaries; Appointment to faculty; Adult education; Chairmanship of Department of Education; Reorganization of School of Education; Department of Curriculum and Instruction; Teacher certification; Wisconsin Improvement Program; Associate deanship; Faculty selection; Research vs. teaching; L&S and School of Education; Department of Continuing and Vocational Education; Men's and women's physical education; Student participation in Curriculum and Instruction; Closing of Wisconsin High School; Graduate program in Curriculum and Instruction; Faculty personalities; Northern Nigeria Teacher Education Program.

Tape 1/Side 1

00:00:00	Introduction.

00:00:30	Background and arly experience at UW in 1930s.

00:02:05 	Thiede's father, an educator.

00:02:57 	School of Education; Curriculum in 1930s; Stephen Corey; Gordon MacKenzie; Paul Sheats; Clarence Ragsdale; Matthew Willing; Arvil Barr.

00:05:53 	Standards of School of Education faculty.

00:07:26	Relations of faculty and students in 1930s.

00:09:02	Graduation and beginning of Masters course work. Start of teaching in February 1940. Course work evaluation.

00:10:33	Admission into teacher education; student observation at Wisconsin High and student teaching at West High; evaluation of student teaching; Ira Davis; real supervisor is master teacher, not faculty person; inadequacy of student teaching.

00:15:58	Choosing cooperating teachers.

00:16:26	Wisconsin High School; 8-year study lack of impact on student teaching.

00:18:12	Pattern of teacher training in Wisconsin.

00:19:30	Thiede had little teaching experience before graduate school; A.S. Barr's influence on Thiede's decision to pursue Ph.D.; John Guy Fowlkes role in the matter and his help to Thiede.

00:22:29	Description of Barr's character; very disciplined and structured person; Thiede was Barr's student.

00:28:01	End of side.

Tape 1/Side 2

00:28:04	Continued description of Barr.

00:31:36	Fowlkes; Thiede's respect for Fowlkes as an intellect, but not as a person; Fowlkes was Thiede's M.A. professor; Charles Anderson; Fowlkes laid groundwork for School of Education as a strong school; Virgil Herrick; brought salaries and respect of School of Education up; Glenn Frank; Fowlkes a browbeater; Barr and Fowlkes came to an "understanding" as a condition of Fowlkes deanship.

00:39:12	How Thiede came to faculty; Fowlkes instrumental in seeing that Thiede was given tenure in Department of Education (1/3) without having taught in it; Lindley Stiles, Russell Hosler also key; Burton Kreitlow also supportive for Thiede to help expand adult education; Thiede brought in to develop adult education: Thiede offered an administrative position at Chicago at this time, and Thiede sought advice from Adolfson and Fred Harrington; this resulted in a full-time appointment in education for Thiede: Stiles a strong backer.

00:50:23	Nature of adult education at UW in 1950s; Agricultural College and Fred Harrington involvement; need for training at graduate level; Kreitlow obtained National Defense Education Act (NDEA) fellowships and this built program.

00:55:02	Thiede's experience as chairman of Department of Education in 1962-1963; school very unwieldy; program building by Stiles required splitting the department.

00:57:52	End of side. End of tape.

Tape 2/Side 1

00:57:54 	More reasons for reorganization; size prevented new program developments; Stiles very active in ensuring reorganization; Stiles wanted stronger graduate program, hence need for departments; most of department opposed split into various departments, as Curriculum and Instruction (C&I) group was very weak in relation to other departments; C & I was too unwilling to focus; Continuing and Vocational Education (CAVE) department has similar problems now.

01:05:28	Problem of course rigidity and nature of certain teacher education courses becoming "property" of certain faculty; problems of departmental intercommunication and access created by reorganization; a problem for teacher training.

01:09:55	Character of Stiles; his feelings subsequently about reorganization.

01:11:12	Creation of new routes of teacher certification by Stiles; students critical of required courses; relieved program rigidity.

01:14:00	Fowlkes instrumental in creating Wisconsin Improvement Program (WIP): Stiles approach to it: 1) consistent with his views to improve teaching experience; 2) he had to keep Fowlkes happy, had to have his own empire.   

01:16:18	Thiede experience as Associate Dean under Stiles; Glen Eye; how Stiles made the position attractive to Thiede; Stiles administrative style; Stiles work in developing federal support for research; Thiede the "internal" administrator.

01:25:07 	Influence of Dean's office on faculty selection very great; Stiles was very adamant on appointments.

01:27:16 	End of side.

Tape 2/Side 2

01:27:18	Remarks continued; Stiles very influential in building departments; educational psychology an example but educational psychology was composed of prima donnas; why Julian Stanley and Chester Harris left; these people wanted a separate department from educational psychology; John Palmer.

01:30:58	Comments on research versus teaching; notes reason for senior faculty feeling concern about teaching decline.

01:34:36	More emphasis on research since Stiles; problems of obtaining tenure for Social Studies Division Executive Committee and Thiede analysis; idea of Professional Studies Division and Stiles feeling on it; the Ed.D. versus Ph.D..

01:41:26 	Letters and Science participation in School of Education; Thiede's evaluation of change in this; Letters and Science was not active in School of Education governance during Stiles regime.

01:44:32 	Why trouble of getting past Social Studies Divisional Committee in 1960s; sees it as over-compensation on part of social studies; part of trouble due to education itself, for lack of proper preparation for the executive committee.

01:50:10 	How CAVE began; the Bag Lunch group of early 1950s; Kreitlow; Theodore Shannon; Harold Montross; Robert Clark; Vernon Swenson; potential competition for resources between Agricultural and Extension and Education in 1960s brought forth a cooperative group to work on programs for three or four years; CAVE was created because none of the original department involved could be pried out of their respective schools or colleges; reasons for bringing vocational education and continuing education together; Merle Strong coordinated via educational administration.

01:58:42 	End of side. End of tape.

Tape 3/Side 1

00:00:00	Physical expansion of School of Education in 1960s; closing of Wisconsin High School; Stiles not high on demonstration school; Stiles upset ("turned blue") when university took Wisconsin High faculty from School of Education; Philip Lambert's research laboratory was where Wisconsin High budget money went; Harvey Littleton's glass laboratory as example of the faculty need of the school; Angus Rothwell instrumental in getting new teacher education buildings for School of Education.

00:09:01 	Planning process in the physical growth of school; physical education facilities a controversial construction effort; Stiles pushed hard for it over much opposition; Stiles also instrumental in getting Educational Sciences building with federal and state money; inadequacy of "old" education building.

00:13:44	Creation of facilities for art and music; Harrington's influence.

00:15:47 	Unit II gym funding problem in regard to construction of Van Hise; the women's physical education facilities.

00:20:52	Combination of men's and women's physical education programs by Stiles; not idea of the departments.

00:23:30 	Creation of Northern Nigeria Teacher Education Program (NNTEP); Stiles pushed for such a program; Stiles key in ensuring that the program's administration could be operated in Nigeria; praises organization of program for maximum impact; Robert Tabachnick.

00:29:06	End of side.

Tape 3/Side 2

00:29:10	NNTEP, continued; problem of teaching material development.

00:33:38	Development of Department of Curriculum Instruction (C&I); problem that teacher education is not under a single department.

00:37:50	Dial Access System acquisition; Philip Lambert.

00:40:31	Comments on Dean McCarty.

00:42:02	Student participation in C&I in late 1960s and 1970s; Fred Newmann; Thiede's views on this.

00:47:16 	Changes in graduate program within C&I; foreign language requirement; proposed change in GPA for satisfaction of graduate standing.

00:52:40 	Strength of executive committee in C&I.

00:57:02	Thiede's unwanted election as chairman of C&I; absence of traditions responsible; socialization of faculty to Wisconsin tradition disappeared in 1960s.

01:00:22 	End of interview.

END