UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #538
FLEMING, ROBBEN W.

FLEMING, Robben W. (1916-2010)
Law school student; Director, Industrial Research Center; Provost/Chancellor
At UW: 1938-1941; 1947-1952; 1964-1968

First Interview
Interviewed: 1999	
Interviewer: Barry Teicher
Length: 6 hours, 19 minutes

Background and family; Beloit College; UW Law School and faculty; War Labor Board and Army service; Industrial Research Center; University of Illinois and labor arbitration; UW provost; Staff and Board of Regents; Hiring of deans; Mulvihill Committee; Faculty governance; Early student protests; Dow Chemical Company demonstrations; University of Michigan; Sterling Hall bombing; Accomplishments at UW; Closing remarks.

Second Interview (no audio exists)
Interviewed: 1987			      
Interviewer: Amy Fried
Length: 1 hour

	Academic and career background; Industrial Relations Center; IRC conferences and committees; Directorship of the IRC; Career after leaving the IRC; 

FIRST INTERVIEW

First Interview Session (October 11, 1999): Tapes 1-2

00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction [Tape 1/Side 1]

00:00:13	RF describes his hometown of Paw Paw, Illinois.  His father was a businessman who operated a store.  He discusses his early school days and the death of his older brother.   RF enjoyed athletics and graduated valedictorian of his high school.

00:07:44	Due to illness, his father was forced to close his store and eventually died when RF was in high school.  He speculates on how his family survived without any visible source of income.  RF describes some of the odd jobs he worked in order to earn extra money. 

00:12:45 	Despite the difficult circumstances, RF and his family always assumed he would go to college.  He explains why he chose to attend Beloit College.  From the age of twelve, RF had wanted to be a lawyer.  He describes his experiences at Beloit, including his numerous jobs.  

00:17:12	RF participated in athletics and was elected president of the student body during his senior year.  

00:20:04	He relates the story of how he met his wife. 

00:22:19 	RF discusses his financial problems once he entered law school at UW.  He explains how he managed to receive in-state tuition at UW.  

00:25:58	Why RF came to UW. 

00:28:31	He begins to discuss the faculty of the law school, including Lloyd Garrison. [end side 1; begin side 2] RF discusses the political views of Garrison.  He describes the teaching methods of Nathan Feinsinger.

00:35:28	RF was increasingly interested in public policy problems.  He discusses Law School professor Willard Hurst and compares the personal and educational styles of Feinsinger and Hurst. 

00:40:47 	He relates some anecdotes about William Page.  

00:43:52	RF describes some famous classmates including Charles Luce and George Young.  

00:44:18	He discusses Young's resignation as dean of the Law School. 

00:51:24 	While in Law School, RF did not participate in many extracurricular activities.

00:54:13 	After graduation, RF worked for the Securities and Exchange Commission in Washington D.C. and in New York. His wife came to visit him in DC and he relates an anecdote about getting married during a break.

01:00:45	He took a job as a panel assistant with the National War Labor Board. [end tape 1; begin tape 2] He describes his job with the War Labor Board.  He relates the first time he was assigned to negotiate a strike settlement, and the lessons he learned.  

01:06:54	He was eventually drafted into the military but not before developing a good reputation among labor negotiators.

01:09:43	At Officer Training School he met Ted Shannon.  RF relates a story from his army service.

01:20:26	RF explains his involvement with the Veterans Emergency Housing Program.  

01:24:30	Soon after, Feinsinger invited him to head the Industrial Relations Center at UW. Considering being a university professor.

00:28:13	He discusses his duties as director of the Industrial Relations Center.  RF concludes that the program was not successful and had many detractors.

01:32:36	[end side 1; begin side 2] RF explains some of the positive aspects of the Industrial Relations Center.  He describes the evolution of his duties and responsibilities within the administration.  RF discusses his relationships with E. B. Fred and Frank Sensenbrenner.

01:37:13	During the Korean War, RF went on leave to become executive director of a newly formed labor relations board.  He describes his duties as director and how the position gave him national recognition and important connections.

01:40:23	After his government service he left UW to become director of the Institute of Industrial Relations at the University of Illinois.  He relates that at this time he also began working as an arbitrator in labor disputes.  RF briefly discusses some of his decisions as arbitrator.

01:46:36	RF describes his theory and approach to labor arbitration.  He cites some examples that illustrate his approach.  

01:51:38	RF continued by citing a second, more serious example, of his approach to arbitration. 

01:55:43	He explains how and why the system of arbitration has changed for the worse.  He continued to be involved in labor arbitration even after retirement.

02:01:53	End of First Interview Session

Second Interview Session (October 12, 1999): Digital File (Tapes 3-4)

00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction [Tape 3/Side 1]

00:00:14	RF discusses labor-management specialist George Taylor.  

00:03:42	He relates a story about Taylor's retirement dinner and President Harry Truman's after dinner speech.

00:09:40	RF discusses his teaching at UW.  He talks about his publications, including two books he wrote while at the University of Illinois.

00:15:34	RF recalls his service on a governmental committee on aging.

00:19:27	He discusses his associations with Elizabeth Brandeis, Selig Perlman, and other labor scholars at UW.  

00:22:36	He describes his relationship with former Secretary of Labor Frances Perkins.

00:30:54	[end side 1; begin side 2] RF explains why he left Illinois to become provost at UW.  

00:35:07	Because of his previous tenure at UW, he was good friends with Edwin Young.  

00:39:19	About this time, he became a candidate for the position of provost at Illinois but was not interested in the job.

00:46:17	He discusses the administrative organization at UW when he arrived as provost.  RF clarifies the relationship between the Madison campus and Central Administration.

00:50:29	RF gives his impressions of Fred Harvey Harrington.  

00:53:30	He discusses his staff which included Emily Peterson.

00:55:41	More on his staff--Jim Cleary, Robert Atwell and 

01:01:19	Barbara Newell. [end tape 3; begin tape 4] RF continues his discussion of Barbara Newell.

01:06:38	When he came to UW as provost, RF did not have any particular plans or agendas.  He explains, however, that one of his goals was to maintain quality teaching.  RF was not concerned about potential student protests and demonstrations.

01:11:11	RF describes his perceptions of the Board of Regents.  He discusses Arthur DeBardeleben.

01:16:41	He outlines the financial relationship between Central Administration and the Madison campus.  RF illustrates this relationship by discussing the planning and construction of UW hospital.

01:21:18	RF discusses the distribution of research overhead.

01:27:40	He evaluates the monthly chancellors meetings he attended as provost.

01:31:40	RF begins to discuss the search process for dean of the Medical School. [end side 1; begin side 2] He continues to discuss the selection process for dean of the Medical School.  The internal problems of the Medical School made the search difficult.  

01:35:53	RF explains his reasons for eventually appointing Peter Eichman.

01:41:59	RF discusses the reorganization of the deanship of Student Affairs.  He describes the search process for a new dean and the eventual hiring of Joseph Kauffman.

01:46:00	He describes a search for dean of Letters and Sciences.  RF discusses some of the candidates and the eventual choice, Leon Epstein.

01:49:24	Another deanship that became available during RF’s tenure was the in the School of Education.

01:55:31	RF describes the search for a new dean of the Graduate School and explains his selection of Robert Bock.

01:58:12	He recounts the preliminary search for a new dean of the School of Pharmacy.

02:01:07	End of side.  End of tape.

Third Interview Session (October 13, 1999): Tapes 5-7
Time	Keywords

00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:15	[Tape 5/Side 1] RF describes some projects he initiated to improve undergraduate education.

00:03:17	He explains why he organized the Mulvihill Committee to address teaching assistant issues.  His primary concerns were English language competency and unauthorized political activity during class hours.  RF discusses some of the deans’ reactions to his policies regarding student demonstrations.

00:09:38	RF discusses faculty governance at UW.  He describes a meeting of the faculty he called to discuss student disruptions of campus speakers.  

00:12:54	RF had not expected the student protest movement when he accepted the chancellorship at UW.  

00:17:20	He never felt that faculty governance was a hindrance to implementing programs. How coming with a planned approach and getting consensus had advantages.  

00:20:38	RF explains techniques he used to gauge faculty opinion and reach a consensus on important issues.

00:26:48	He describes his relations with the University Committee.  RF evaluates the effectiveness of faculty representation. [end side 1; begin side 2] RF continues discussing the process of faculty representation.

00:32:53	After leaving his position as director, RF did not maintain strong relations with the Industrial Research Center.

00:35:59	RF relates the discussions concerning growing enrollment at UW.  The idea of a second campus never drew much support.  RF describes attempts to centralize  all campus libraries.

00:41:12	RF talks about the Madison Computing Center.  He describes some of the difficulties encountered in evaluating the need for computer systems.

00:46:08	RF outlines the growth of university legal staffs.  He discusses affirmative action.

00:50:05	He explained the difficulty with disability legislation and federal mandates, which often come with no follow up support

00:55:20	He explains his role in Martha Peterson’s hiring as president of Beloit College.

00:57:11	RF describes his approach to personnel issues relating to faculty and staff misconduct.  He discusses the rise of gay rights movements. [end tape 5; begin tape 6] RF explains that the establishment of a position within the office of student affairs at the University of Michigan dealing with gay student issues met with some opposition.

01:03:42	He states that while he was at the University of Illinois student activism was limited.

01:07:35	RF recalls the first incidents of student protest after he arrived as provost at UW.  He describes his response to specific protests.  He allowed students to occupy buildings unless they disrupted the normal functioning of the department and he resisted calls for police intervention.  

01:13:39	He discusses Ralph Hanson and his role as head of campus security.

01:16:14	He describes two different types of student protesters. RF discusses the problems associated with radical students bent only on destruction, noting that there were very few of them.

01:20:47	He expressed his opinion about ways to effectively deal with “the destroyers” and those who were just curious.

01:24:56	He relates an anecdote about his meeting with a well-known national student protestor from the University of California - Berkeley and the criticism he subsequently received.

01:28:56	Apologizing to Edward Kennedy.

01:29:40	RF discusses the first Dow Chemical Company recruiting protests. [end side 1; begin side 2] He continues discussing his responses to the Dow Chemical demonstrations.  

01:35:15	RF describes how he and Joseph Kauffman dealt with the arrest of nineteen students during a demonstration.  Eventually, RF bailed out the arrested students and spoke at a demonstration later that night.  

01:39:15	He gives some examples of reactions to these incidents.

01:45:12	RF describes his relations with the Madison Police Department.  

01:46:47	He relates some incidents from the University of Michigan dealing with police involvement in student demonstrations.    

01:59:33	He discusses how his handling of student demonstrations made him a candidate for the presidencies of the University of Minnesota and the University of Michigan.

02:02:01	RF discusses his decision to accept the position of president of the University of Michigan. [end tape 6; begin tape 7]	

02:06:31	He was surprised and saddened when he heard about the bombing of Sterling Hall.  RF describes the reaction to the bombing at Michigan.

02:08:27	RF evaluates his tenure as chancellor at UW and lists his accomplishments.  He gives his final impressions of his experiences at UW.

02:16:26	End of Third Interview Session

End of Oral History #538

SECOND INTERVIEW  (1987)

First Interview Session (July 6, 1987): Tape 8

014	[begin Tape 8/Side 1] Robben Fleming describes his academic background.  He attended Law School as a student of Nathan Feinsinger at UW and graduated in 1941.

041	RF became a junior panel assistant at the National War Labor Board in 1942.  He relates the emergence of industrial relations programs at universities across the United States in the aftermath of the Second World War.  

087	Feinsinger and Ed Witte solicited RF to return to UW to run their Industrial Relations Center (IRC).

121	He speaks about his friendship with Selig Perlman and Elizabeth Brandeis.

144	RF describes Brandeis.  She primarily studied social legislation on child labor and social security.

182	He cites postwar labor strikes and concerns about unemployment as motivating factors in the founding of the IRC.  UW also had a tradition of interest in the industrial relations field through the John R. Commons group.

212	The IRC was located in a temporary facility on the corner of University Avenue and Park Street.  RF also ran the Industrial Relations Research Association (IRRA) office out of the same facility.

244	He mentions a program that brought German students to the IRC.

265	The objective of the IRC was to be an interdisciplinary program that would address problems in labor-management relations.  However, there were problems in bridging different departments so as to make research projects truly interdisciplinary.  He goes on to describe problems in organizing conferences.  While the School for Workers cooperated with the IRC, the management program in the business school hesitated.

312	RF discusses the committees of the IRC.  He worked principally with the executive committee, which included Irving Gaumnitz, Nathan Feinsinger, and Ed Witte.  He speculates that some management interests found the IRC to be too much influenced by labor interests and the School for Workers.

354	Dean Elwell[?] of the School of Commerce was unsympathetic to the IRC and its programs.

379	RF thinks that the shift from institutional to quantitative economics within the economics department did not initially impact the IRC.

390	RF had no direct power in hiring faculty or shaping the curriculum.

412	The chief difficulties RF confronted as director of the IRC were trying to establish the program and manage it with a small budget.  He also relates the suspicion with which various management and manufacturers’ associations regarded the IRC and the School for Workers.

447	The IRC budget was placed within the president’s office.

470	There were few fund-raising efforts in the early years of the IRC.

481	He thinks that the role of the IRC in organizing labor-management conferences was not very productive; therefore, it was a good idea to convert the IRC into primarily a research institute.
502	By the time RF left the IRC, he had realized that the program needed to find a new course and to root itself in the research of faculty members.  The IRC had become too contentious as a meeting-place for labor and management for it to be productive.

522	He chose to leave the IRC when the University of Illinois offered him a more lucrative position.  He directed their industrial relations program from 1952-57, then taught in the law school there from 1957-64.  He returned to UW in 1964 to become the first chancellor before leaving again in 1967 to accept the presidency of the University of Michigan.  In 1979, he became president of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.  He taught a course in the Michigan law school on labor law before finally retiring.

574	RF notes that changes in manufacturing, the emergence of new service industries, and novel developments in the bargaining process will affect the study of industrial relations.

581	[end side 1; begin side 2]

037	Robben Fleming continues to talk about changes in labor-management relations and their impact on the study of industrial relations.  He thinks that the industrial relations program will remain interdisciplinary.

080	End of First Interview Session

End of Oral History #538