UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #1420
GREENSPAN, JUDY

GREENSPAN, JUDY (ca. 1952-)
Undergraduate student (English)
At UW: 1970-1973

Interviewed: 	2009 
Interviewer: 	Scott Seyforth
Index by: 	Nichole Barnes
Length: 	1 hour, 8 minutes
Series: 	Madison’s LGBT Community: 1960s to Present 

Abstract: In her 2009 interview with Scott Seyforth, Judy Greenspan details her activism within the gay community during her time in Madison. Greenspan was an active member of the Gay Sisters who sought to bridge the women’s and lesbian movements in Madison during the early 1970s. Greenspan also describes the events surrounding her decision to run for Madison School Board and how her campaign brought attention to the gay movement. This interview is included in the Madison’s LGBT Community: 1960s to Present oral history project.

Key Words: Madison Gay Sisters; GLF; gay movement; women’s movement; lesbian movement; school board; public schools; election; campaign; politics; homophobia; activism; 10 Langdon; Whole Woman; bars; identity; demonstrations; anti-war movement; Vietnam; hotline; counseling services; switchboard 

First Interview Session (August 18, 2009): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:11	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:05:35	Question: What was the straight women’s movement like at the time? Answer: Greenspan felt that the straight movement was fearful of lesbians and gays and that the groups were very separate. Greenspan believed that there were tremendous amounts of homophobia and fear.

00:08:00	Question: You said that a lot of who you were sort of more politically-active lesbians had come from the Vietnam movement? Answer: Yes, many came from the anti-war movement and the student movement. Greenspan remembered that coming out politically was difficult because she had come from a place where she was very involved politically, in terms of demonstrations and strikes. She was even arrested in 1971 during a protest against the treatment of cafeteria workers. She was also involved in a demonstration that rallied to “make May Day gay day.”

00:11:08	Question: How did you try and make May Day gay day? What did you do? Answer: Greenspan remembered that lesbians loved Madame Binh, one of the leaders in North Vietnam, and they wanted to be identified with her and with the Vietnamese liberation movement. Greenspan recalled several anti-war chants from the period.

00:15:49	Question: In here [Greenspan’s “Memoirs of a Tired Lesbian”] you talk about not having any counseling services. Answer: There was a hotline that people could call to talk about anything. Greenspan offered to talk to women who thought they were gay when she volunteered at the hotline service.

00:19:24	Question: Describe why the Madison Gay Sisters decided they needed to take the name lesbian. Answer: The group had a big discussion with some not wanting to adopt the word. Others felt that the word lesbian distinguished them from gay men and also grounded them in feminism and a community of women.

00:20:21	Question: One of the things in the “Memoirs” article, which you sort of laid out in chunks of time, is that after the May Day anti-war parade, one of the next things that happened early that summer was lesbians became involved in the Madison women’s movement. Answer: Greenspan recalled that a women’s center had opened at that time and that she attended meetings where she tried to carve out a space for lesbians within the larger women’s movement. 

00:21:42	Question: The sense that I got from the “Memoirs” article was that around the time that Madison Gay Sisters/GLF moved into 10 Langdon and you break from GLF and the group seemed strong during that summer. We sort of shared space but didn’t do things with GLF, it that right? Answer: It was not a total break, and Greenspan discussed the relationship between GLF and the Madison Gay Sisters and their separation in 1971. What happened in that fall of that year was that GLF members started speaking in schools more because it women did not attend, then they would not have been represented on the panels. 

00:22:48	Greenspan also recalled her participation in recreational women’s softball and meeting lesbians through this activity during the summers of the early 1970s. 

00:25:22	During her time in college at UW (she dropped out early due to her involvement in political and social activism), Greenspan took a graduate-level course as a freshman with Elaine Reuben. In the class, Greenspan wrote a paper on lesbians in novels. Greenspan talks about her interest in early feminist and lesbian literature.

00:27:09	Question: Anything else you want to say about 10 Langdon and what you guys used to do there? Answer: Greenspan could not remember much of her time at Langdon. One of the things she remembered was sitting outside having arguments with gay men about their sexism. However, Greenspan said that she “was young, the movement was young, we were all very impatient. We didn’t appreciate a lot of the campiness of gay male culture.” The use of certain terms by gay men to gay men offended Greenspan and others so arguments often ensued. Greenspan also mentioned the dances held at 10 Langdon, the eventual separation between men and women’s dances, and her perception of gay men at the time.

00:33:33	Question: Can you talk about integrating the bars a little? Answer: At the time, the only bar that Greenspan knew of was the Pirate Ship, which was all men. There, the female bartender, like others people at the bar, was unfriendly to women. But Greenspan and her friends liked to be in people’s faces and certain things that they did left to them being ostracized, particularly Greenspan’s run for school board. Greenspan discussed how different groups of people, including closeted gays, viewed her run for school board. 

00:37:12	Question: So when you went to straight bars was there a plan? What did you do? Answer: Greenspan and her friends would go to bars and start dancing. She remembers a few particularly angry confrontations; at one bar, the bar owner turned off the music and told her group to leave. Greenspan notes that at the time, homosexuality was viewed as an illness.

00:38:34	Question: I wonder if we should talk about the Thanksgiving conference of ’71? Answer: Greenspan does not remember the event, but the story of a conference being organized without women sounded typical of what would have happened. Greenspan also notes that this type of separation between gay men and lesbians continues in the present in certain ways.

00:41:40	Question: How did Whole Woman get started? Answer: Whole Woman was a collective for both straight and gay women. The collective was on Few Street, and members produced a monthly newspaper.

00:45:32	Question: In reading “Memoirs” one of the things you describe in the summer of ’71 there was this high enthusiasm [for Gay Sisters] and then in the second year, you talk about how a lot of women were just passing through the group and that there was never any consistency. Can you talk about that? Answer: The group went through several phases. When many of them first came out, there was a lot of political activism. But over time, it became more of a social group that lost its drive for a period of time. This loss of enthusiasm probably stemmed from a lack of clear focus. To Greenspan, it was not enough for the group to only provide a social network.

00:50:00	Question: So at the beginning, when people talk about consciousness raising, is that what you were doing? Can you describe what that was? Answer: Greenspan believed there were two things going on in the early years, consciousness raising, which was reading and discussing relevant and stimulating writing, while the second part was creating a network of lesbians. The Gay Sisters provided a space for women to shed layers of homophobia and self-loathing that had built up over years of being closeted. 

00:52:40	Question: In the spring of ’72 you describe in the article [“Memoirs”] going to jail and while you’re in there it appears like some women continued on with the group, the counseling continued, the speaking in schools continued and it was during the time you were in jail that the school board outlawed gays speakers in the public schools. And you say here that lesbians went to the school board meeting to protest that and they got a fair amount of media coverage. Do you remember any of this? Answer: Greenspan does not remember much of this due to her incarceration, but she does recall how later, someone collected all the information relating to the school board decision. In 2001, the school board issued an official apology for their barring of gays from the public schools. 

00:55:05	Question: You leave town in the summer of ’73? What happens to the Gay Sisters/Madison Lesbians? Answer: Greenspan left Madison after she lost the school board election. At the time, there was no more Gay Sisters/Madison Lesbians but there were many more women’s groups in the city. Greenspan believes that her run for school board put a lot of visibility on the gay movement. 

00:55:26	Question: And you were so out there, had Elaine Noble been elected yet? Answer: No, Greenspan believes that she is the first openly gay candidate to run for election in Madison. Greenspan notes that Paul Soglin was not even mayor at the time, but he did endorse her run for school board. Greenspan also relays the story about Toby Emmer’s run for sheriff.

00:59:39	Question: So you came to Madison in when? Answer: Greenspan arrived in Madison in late-August 1970. She graduated from high school in June of 1970. Greenspan left for Milwaukee in the summer of 1973 because the school board campaign exhausted her. She felt that she had become such a public figure that she had no private life whatsoever. Greenspan’s run for school board was very different than other campaigns since she had no intention, or the ability, to win. For Greenspan, her campaign was a political struggle; she “used the electoral arena to put something out there.” As a candidate, Greenspan was able to talk in the public schools, interact with students, and appear on television to bring attention to the gay movement. Greenspan and her colleagues were not only a challenge to the straight establishment but also a challenge to the closeted lesbian and gay establishment. 

01:03:59	Question: Lesbian switchboard; I was thinking that’s one of the outgrowths of Madison Lesbians, right? Is that a fair characterization? Answer: Greenspan thinks the switchboard was an outgrowth of the help line the Gay Sisters had established. Greenspan notes that these types of activities allowed people to become more involved and build community. 

01:04:46	Question: And the Back Door [bar]? Answer: Greenspan believes that this particular bar opened after Greenspan moved to Milwaukee, though she did visit it a few times. Greenspan talks briefly about the bar and women’s night there. 

01:08:27	End of interview.

END OF ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW #1420