UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #297
PERCY, DONALD E.

PERCY, Donald E. (1933- )
Vice President; Vice President of UW System
At UW: 1963-1975; 1983

Interviewed: 1984	
Series: Merger
Interviewer: Martin Dowling
Length: 4 hours

Statewide coordination of higher education and demise of CCHE; Competition between institutions in System before Merger; Fred Harvey Harrington administration; Appointment of John Weaver; Reaction of Madison faculty and Board of Regents to Merger; Governor Patrick Lucey's relationship with those bodies; Early Weaver administration; Problems implementing Merger; Post-Merger Weaver administration; Budget preparation and mission statements; Experiences in Mathematics Research Center, as dean of L&S and as vice president under Robert Clodius; Extension Merger; Development of Green Bay and Parkside campuses; Problems in merged system; Coordination of System chancellors; Disarming TAUWF; Development of System-wide database; Development of budget allocation system; Management of computer facilities; Comment on System presidency; Academic career.

First Interview Session (November 28, 1984): Digital File
Time	Keywords

00:00:00	[begin Tape 1/Side 1] Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:01:03	DP recalls movement nationwide in early 1970s to establish Post Secondary Educa- tion Commissions.  Attempt to get states to coordinate all higher education.  Higher Education Aids board here in Wisconsin involved, but never came to fruition.

00:03:23	Question about the demise of Coordinating Council for Higher Education (CCHE).  Head of CCHE traditionally not from WSU or UW, but from either public education or from out of state.  A. Rothwell, head of CCHE after 1966, was past superintendent of public education. 

00:04:50	Pre-1966 CCHE was seriously underfunded.  Knowles administration study determined that it was underfunded and without authority.  But 1966 upgrading of CCHE still left it grossly underfunded relative to its tasks.  Any budget or legislative ramifications of CCHE proposals were easily defeated by WSU and UW lobbies in the legislature. 

00:06:26	DP approached by Bill Kraus to head CCHE.  Recommended that CCHE limit its tasks to fit its budget.  Reaction in legislature to DP's association with UW by Walter Hollander, John Shabaz, who threatened to cut funding.  Hired Art Brown instead and CCHE members balanced carefully by legislature. 

00:10:00	Great concern over duplication between Extension and Voc-Tech. CCHE members, particularly Bill Kraus, recognized the futility of CCHE's work in the legislature. Threatened by the presence of UW, WSU people attending legislative committees.

00:12:51	DP publicly recommended scaling down CCHE.  VTAE survived where CCHE did not.  Also weak because it lacked a real constituency.

00:15:41	Question about Fred Harrington administration.  Describes the administration, some of his assistants: Don McNeil, George Field, Charles Engman, Bob Taylor all gained valuable experience from their work under Harrington.

00:19:03	Decision to bring UW-Green Bay and Parkside under UW.  Describes UW- Milwaukee's efforts to gain its own identity.  Problems similar with Green Bay, Parkside and Extension.  DP praises this move because it gained new political constituencies for Madison.  Very helpful in budget battles.

00:22:05	Describes Harrington's domineering style in front of legislature.  Personal impressions of Harrington.

00:25:26	Most in Madison respected Harrington's political judgment re: Green Bay and Parkside.

00:26:26	DP describes his work as VP under Clodius.  Worked on budgets along with business VP Neil Cafferty and Reuben Lorenz. 

00:28:48	Comments on Harrington's resignation.

00:30:05	Question on selection of Weaver. [end side 1; begin side 2]  Political turmoil at the time may have influenced the Board of Regents decision to pick an outsider, John C. Weaver, as president.  DP worked to orientate Weaver. 

00:33:13	Describes conflict between Board of Regents and newly elected Governor Patrick Lucey over appointment of Weaver.  Lucey had support of Madison faculty in the election.  DP names David Adamany as Lucey's intellectual source for the merger idea.  Gives impressions of Lucey.  Bob Dunne also important in writing Lucey's proposals.  Mentions Kellett's study on higher education.  Hearings in 1971 on higher education.

00:37:25	DP testified on merger at those hearings.

00:40:28	Question about Penniman's comments on Percy in her chapter in Bogue and Taylor.  DP was not pro-merger, but had an open mind about potential benefits.

00:42:39	Comments on faculty reaction to merger.  Lucey very blunt about his goals in front of faculty.  DP claims faculty constrained by their support for Lucey in the election. 

00:44:38	Board of Regents neutralized by the Republican-like language of merger (cutting wasteful government, etc).  Exception was Arthur DeBardeleben, staunch defender of Madison campus and faculty governance.  Impression of DeBardeleben.

00:46:47	Question on whether Lucey constrained Weaver by picking him as president of the merged system. 

00:47:55	Board of Regents response to merger.  Ody J. Fish felt merger was inevitable, persuaded board to maneuver to protect its interests against WSU.  This situation a result of Lucey's masterful strategy.

00:49:50	Question on "Central Policy Group" referred to in DP's documents in Archives.  Included Weaver, DP, and Clodius.  Edwin Young involved but also acted indepen- dently.  Chemistry between Young and Weaver not the best, perhaps because of Weaver's appointment as system president.  Describes his relationship with Weaver. 

00:54:42	Lee Dreyfus? Comments on his activity in support of merger. Dreyfus the principal spokesman for WSU presidents, and major adversary of Central Policy Group.

00:56:21	Question re MISC.  DP an advisor to the committee. Describes function of MISC. Digression about UW-Superior students presenting Lucey with calendars titled "UW-Superior" before merger was through the senate.  Discusses problems of naming campuses.

00:58:52	Campus autonomy the biggest problem.  First joint UW-WSU staff meeting very tense.  McPhee resigned and L. Haas quickly picked to replace him.  Haas never wanted to leave Eau Claire.  Uniform budget and administrative system hammered out in 18 months.

01:00:04	[end tape 1; begin tape 2] More on MISC.  Jack Pelisek a very effective leader.  Comments on the factionalism of the committee.  Penniman protective of Madison faculty interests.  John Lavine protective of WSU interests, regent who felt he was representing Lucey's interests.  Dreyfus represented WSU presidents' interests. Factionalism strong among faculties around the state.  Students on the committee had very little influence. 

01:04:40	Final bill was as good as it could have been.

01:05:28	Question re post merger administrative changes. 

01:07:02	Question on the success of Weaver, Percy, Smith team. Describes working with Smith.  Both had a sense of humor.  Given great freedom by Weaver.  Smith's duties more specific than Percy's.  DP floated from job to job.  Real challenge was bringing a factional faculty together.  Coordinating Chancellors was less difficult.  Smith important to this coordination.

01:11:06	DP describes budget preparation and presentation to the Regents.  Only problematic issue was faculty salaries.  Budget presented in terms of "themes."  Succeeded in getting legislative and Chancellor support for these themes.

01:13:21	Relationship with Lucey. Young got along with Lucey better than Weaver did.

01:14:43	DP still in support of merger.  Program duplication reduced by missions.  Thinks merger was inevitable.  DP and Smith worked hard to remove any pro-Madison bias from the system administration.  Defense of Madison campus not his highest priority as VP of system.

01:17:03	End of First Interview Session

Second Interview Session (April 4, 1985): Digital File

Time		Keywords

00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction [begin Tape 3/Side 1] 

00:00:23	Background on DP's reasons for coming to Madison.  Administrator in Advanced Research Products Agency, federal agency responsible for space research before NASA, at Princeton.  Barkley Rosser, head of that agency, moved to the Mathematics Research Center on campus and invited DP to work for him.

00:02:40	Describes research at the MRC, attitudes toward it before anti-war movement.  MRC attracted conscientious objectors. 

00:03:33	Worked under dean of L&S Ed Young, became interested in academic administration.  Invited to be assistant dean.  Research and instruction duties. 

00:05:17	Origins of the MRC.  Led by Rudolph Langer. 

00:07:19	Anti-war protest against the MRC.  Majority there were not army consultants.  Army could have funded it through NSF to avoid protest.  Describes benefits of MRC in terms of research and instruction. 

00:09:47	Anecdote about locking the doors of MRC in Sterling Hall. 

00:10:25	Benefits of joint appointments at MRC and other departments. 

00:12:40	Appointment to assistant deanship by Young.  Describes responsibilities: in charge of research administration.  Wrote a guideline for administering extramural research.  Dealt with TA, PA, and instructorship policies. 

00:14:34	Invited to go to University of Maine along with Young who was appointed president there, but wanted to stay in Madison.  Worked for Leon Epstein after Young's departure.  Again concentrating on extramural research grant review.

00:15:41	Appointed as assistant vice president under Clodius.  Worked with Luberg, Peterson, Lemon.  Worked on academic titles at University level.  Tenure.  Problem of hiring faculty into tenure, established the guidelines which lead to changes in divisional committees criteria for tenure.

00:18:37	Move of administration to Van Hise hall from Bascom. Coining of term Central Administration.  Addition of floors onto Van Hise.  Administration became distinct from the campus, set up new relationship between president and chancellors. 

00:20:17	Promotion to vice president.  Duties.  VP for Academic Programs and budget. 

00:21:02	Thiede committee and Don McNeil and extension merger.  Premerger tenure policy in Extension messy.  DP involved with tenure policy.  Chapter 10.  David Fellman was the expert on tenure on campus.  Development of "personnel action form", which is still in use.  Also "guidelines on academic titles" still used.  DP feels these were his most important contributions to the University pre-merger. 

00:24:56	Problems outstate with Extension merger.  Tenure was big problem.  DP visited all center system campuses.  WSU expansion of their own centers.  Competition in counties, more money to WSU centers. 

00:27:38	DP occupied with defending extension campuses.  Studies showed students from centers performed as well or better at Madison.

00:28:09	[end side 1/begin side 2] Problem with merging of WSU centers. 

00:29:01	Development of Green Bay and Parkside pre-merger occupied DP.  Question of advanced degrees there.  Green Bay academic programs organized differently. Environmentally oriented.  Same with Parkside: industrial.  DP recommends further interviews on Green Bay and Parkside.  Political support from those campuses critical in days of student revolts. 

00:31:20	Question of enrollment projections at Green Bay and Parkside.  Green Bay students more cosmopolitan.  Dorms constructed by David Carley's company, Inland Steel. 

00:31:56	Competition between chancellors, Irv Wyllie and Ed Weidner, both social scientists. 

00:32:52	Question re location of campuses in Green Bay and Kenosha, Racine. 

00:34:22	Question re respective Extension presidents.  Impressions of Don McNeil.  Worked well for Harrington.  Question re demerger of Extension.  Alternated presidential appointments between agriculture and general extension.

00:38:12	Question on DP's involvement in student unrest.  Compares Harrington and Weaver with respect to dealing with unrest.  University very fragile.  Harrington's departure. 

00:42:00	Post merger problems of system merger.  Weaver's personal sensitivity, his threat to resign, his relationship with Lucey.  Appointment of system administration positions.  Real problem was #3 spot, not Haas' position.  Problem of location of offices in Van Hise.  Alternating UW-WSU appointments.  System business office merger very difficult because the two were incompatible.  Many individuals had to be bumped.  Engman. 

00:50:07	Coordinating of chancellors.  Review of programs.  Regents. 

00:52:25	Question re TAUWF and Marshall Wick and Ed Muzik.  Both fairly ineffective at CCHE.  Their activity post merger.  Smith and DP occupied with disarming TAUF in meetings of faculty bodies.  TAUWF activity re salaries and unionization. 

00:55:17	Development of system-wide data base, budget process. [end tape 3/begin tape 4] Performance indicators. Elwin Cammack responsible for OASIS, Office of Analysis Services and Information Systems. Classification of curriculum, students, enrol- lment. Attempt to create a management support unit. Budget Office best in the country, thanks to the work of Ed Horkin.  His reputation in legislature spotless. Everyone trusted his numbers.  Lorenz also best in the business.  Gene Arnn, budget officer, recruited by DP from DOA.  Other systems trying to steal DP's people. 

01:00:42	Problem of tenure in former WSU campuses, where some campuses had 100% tenured faculty.  Duties of DP and Smith.

01:01:15	Composite Support Index.  Attacks on it by chancellors and TAUF.  Description of Composite Support Index.  Problem applying it to Green Bay, a unique campus. Composite Support Index worked under enrollment growth and decline. 

01:04:26	Operation of system under Lucey's budgets. General legislative attitude toward Madison a residual of '60's attitudes. Elections won by running against UW.

01:05:49	Decremental budgeting.  Funds only for programs specified in missions and Composite Support Index.  Decision item narrative budget process.  Zero based budgeting.  Budget process respected in legislature.  Greatly improved over CCHE.  Did not need charisma of McPhee or Harrington to sell a budget. 

01:12:16	Management of computer facilities.  Anecdote about purchase of multimillion dollar computer before legislature approved the budget, infuriating Governor Knowles.  Pre merger UW plan for a computer utility to service the whole state, Muller. 

01:13:45	Problem of charging for computer use.  Computers oversold by their companies. Attempt to divert funds to instructional computing. 

01:17:12	Computer Guidance Committee a response to people around the system with strong ambitions and different views on computers.  Problems of compatibility and avoiding a monopoly.  On site reviews around system which reported to local chancellors. 

01:19:53	Recollection of computer experts. 

01:21:33	Problem of getting loyalty to the system.  "System citizenship."  Agrees with Ody Fish fear of bypassing of system administration in legislature.  Departure of O'Neil.  DP claims that in '70s present faculty problems prevented by effectiveness of Composite Support Index and budget process in general. 

01:23:53	DP predicts de facto demerger of the system.  Feels that old WSU people got all they could out of the merger (name and reputation).

01:25:04	[end side 1/begin side 2] Prediction of major change with appointment of next president. Inherent problems of the system presidency.  DP can't imagine the motivation of O'Neil's prospective successors. Thinks David Carley is most likely candidate.  DP would not take the job.

01:27:04	General comments on DP's career, past and future.  Enjoys teaching the most, would like to pursue that. 

01:29:34	Pros and cons of not having advanced degree. More comments on system presidency.

01:35:31	End of Second Interview Session. 

End of Oral History #297