UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #116
STERN, JAMES L.

STERN, James L. (1920- )
Professor of Economics
At UW: 1962-1986

First Interview
Interviewed: 1977	
Series: TA Strike, 1970
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length: 1 hour, 49 minutes

History of Industrial Relations Research Institute (IRRI); TA strike of 1970.

Second Interview
Interviewed: 2004	
Interviewer: W. Lee Hansen
Length: 43 minutes

Educational background; Hiring by UW; Research; Industrial Relations Research Institute (IRRI); Budgets; Tenure-granting authority.

Third Interview
Interviewed: 1987			     
Interviewer: Amy Fried
Length: 1 hour, 20 minutes

	Educational background; Procedures for appointing IRRI directors; Industrial Relations Center; Directorship of the IRRI; Center for Vocational Education; Funding for students; Departmentalization; TAA; Student recruitment; Curriculum.        

First Interview: Tapes 1-2
(June 20th, 1977)
Tape 1/Side 1   

00:00:52	Describes Industrial Relations Research Institute (IRRI) and gives its history. Program grants MA and a Ph.D. degree in industrial relations. Lists directors.
 
00:04:03	Its financial basis. Outside grants--Ford Foundation, HEW. They pay for overhead. Labor organizations in state cooperate by hiring students as interns.

00:06:24	James Marketti. Was an undergraduate at UW. Came to JS for advice about field of study. JS advised him to go into international relations if he wanted to contribute to society, which he did. But he went into industrial relations. Was given an NSF grant.  

00:09:29	Concentrated on study in first two years as graduate student  

00:10:09	JS thinks he was not a central figure in TAA. To think so, distorts early history of TAA.  

00:11:14	JS was his master's advisor.  

00:12:34	JS invited Henry Haslach and colleagues in TAA to talk to group of graduate students in industrial relations about TAA. Their shock at his ineptness--didn't know how to organize a union. Afterwards, Marketti and some others offered to help TAA to organize.    

00:13:32	JS had heard of TAA much earlier and had invited leaders in to visit talk to classes. They viewed JS as sympathetic. Sent him their literature. Couldn't be sure they would show up for scheduled meetings. Didn't know whether they wanted to advertise themselves.  

00:16:47	Question about role of radicals who didn't favor union route. Thought of TAA as voice for Teaching Assistants in social change.  

00:18:16	JS's students told them they could do that and still be a union. Fred Sherman and Frank Lyons suggested this. Both were on staff of School for Workers, both considered radicals.  Both had trade union experience.  

00:20:37	Marketti not a usual type of bargainer. An idealist, not one to make deals. Couldn't negotiate himself out of a paper bag. Very bright, charismatic leader. Was good in a situation where no one wanted to settle. At end, he was more conservative than his troops.

00:22:35	IRRI was polarized. Bucklew, a former student, was bargaining for UW. Marketti ceased to do any work for degree, so he got an incomplete. He thought that unreasonable, so he fired Stern as major professor. He felt that academic work was not useful to career as union organizer.  

00:26:44	Marketti's memo to IRGSA--Industrial Relations Graduate Student Association. Warning new students against JS. Who founded IRGSA.

00:29:26	Summarizes Marketti's career; different directions TA leaders went.  

00:31:00	Abusiveness of TA bargainers. Did Marketti indulge in that? JS doesn't believe that TA bargainers' manners were very different from those of ordinary labor bargainers. Use of first names a shock to faculty but normal in labor relations. JS thinks they behaved well with Ed Young. 

00:34:29	Marketti's tie with Teamsters' Union. JS doesn't think was important. A story about Marketti and Muehlenkamp going to talk to Harvey Kitzman, regional director of UAW. Marketti also talked to steel workers--Burt McNamara, John Schmitt. Didn't get anywhere. Their ties were too strong with faculty such as Ed Young. They'd call up and say, we have a few of our radicals over here. If they had emphasized health insurance, wages, etc., they could have gotten support. 

00:37:32	How much help did they get from the Teamsters? Not much. Legal advice was not out of Teamsters' pocket. Was free from Loeffler, JS thinks. Discusses truck and bus drivers honoring strike. JS mentions rumor that a TA paid bus drivers money from an inheritance. JS doesn't think University suffered by brief stoppage of truck deliveries. Food was delivered to the dormitories right along. Mentions Carl Schramm. He was trying to stop deliveries. Was pushing Ralph Hanson around. Police grabbed him. Case went to court. He was angry because his mother was notified. 

00:44:17	JS points out that students often managed to get their own work done during strike. 

Tape 1/Side 2

00:46:05	More on Marketti. Would he throw rocks through windows? JS doesn't know. Recalls incident later involving picketing of a liquor store. Was married, had a five year old son. JS liked him. 

00:49:15	JS recommended Neil Bucklew for job of UW negotiator. Marketti objected. Thought UW should have a more mature negotiator. Thinks Bucklew was a success. Points out this wasn't a big deal for UW, even if it was for TAs. 

00:54:45	Ed Krinsky was also a student of JS, as was Charles Carlson. 

00:57:22	Topic of JS at time of Shabazz proposal. JS remembers meeting at which Mulvihill, Percy, Bryant Kearl, Chancellor were present. Williams from Spanish and Muehlenkamp for TAs. Then had an official meeting with Kleene, Phil Cohen, Bryant Kearl, University Committee, JS. Agreed to set up team to deal with TAs and set up a structure agreement. Kearl, Arlen (lawyer), Stern, Burman (horse doctor, Ag School), Mulvihill. Once structure agreement set up, JS, Christenson, Burman, got out of it. 

01:03:10	Question about no-strike agreement. Doesn't remember. 

01:03:57	Issue of recognition. JS thinks wasn't an issue. JS thinks it has worked out wonderfully, and teaching has improved. 

01:06:20	Arlen Christenson got involved again.

01:06:47	End of side. End of tape.

Tape 2/Side 1

01:06:55	JS made mistake when visiting Ed Young a few days before crisis. Concerned about rumors that there were not going to be multiple year contracts. Thought Young should shift from hard line to soft line or faculty would walk out on him. Felt Young was being misinformed by faculty around him, not Christenson or Bucklew but possibly Doremus. Administrators in faculty were taking a hard line position.  Multiple-year contracts for TAs. Young met with Christenson and Bucklew and then gave them leeway to make certain concessions. As a result, JS became involved again. Convened faculty meeting one Saturday morning to discuss concessions. Irving Shain questioned if concessions would avoid strike. Meeting held to develop faculty position.  

01:11:31	Afternoon meeting with TAs. Going to strike. Talked with Marketti. TAs wanted health insurance. Main economic issues were being solved in a way in which JS didn't think TAs thought they could gain. Academic control of classes was outstanding issue. Faculty intended to support administration on this completely. Strike ensued.  

01:13:24	When strike did begin JS was on vacation.  

01:14:42	Faculty members for meeting; Council of Ten plus others. Mort Rothstein involved along with Irving Shain. Faculty involvement necessary in order to negotiate with TAs. More on faculty meetings and discussion.  

01:21:06	About Harrington and regents.  

01:21:53	JS felt strike was lost before it started. Impossible for bread and butter wing of TAA to get them off strike. TAA lost support of students after spring break. Had to settle. Regent meeting held after strike was over and was simply a report to the regents on what had happened. On Nathan Feinsinger being involved as mediator, and how he viewed the strike. Talks about those who were sympathetic to the strike, i.e. David Loeffler, Don Eaton.  

01:29:23	Don Eaton, Teamsters hired Marketti in future. Comments on that. Didn't believe Marketti had hold on Teamsters. 

01:30:35	Administration's handling of attendance of classes by faculty. Some professors wanted to handle classes that had had TAs, some thought that immoral. Is faculty autonomous? By tradition and practice, faculty is all powerful. By legal standards, they have no rights at all. More on faculty and their feelings about strike, collective bargaining.  

Tape 2/Side 2

01:37:44	Oral history of TAA manifestation out of sixties helped by Shabazz. Bargaining for TAs a new thing. Improvements made for TAs as result of strike.  

01:40:03	Existence of collective bargaining agreement has not hurt departmental relations. TAs work harder due to budgets; faculty supervises TAs better due to contract requirements. More interaction between TAs and faculty. Educational planning being carried out in economics department and trend spreading.

01:42:39	Awards for best TAs each year. Continues to talk about what relationship is now between faculty and TAs and students. Economics department very happy with contract.

01:46:00	Agreement by faculty and TAs that power had to be in center for smooth operation and get departments in line. Positive results with power in administration.

01:48:59	End of interview.

Second Interview: Tape 3
(September 16, 2004)
Tape 3/Side 1

00:00:23	James Stern talks about his educational background and his work for the United Auto Workers from 1954-1962. He relates the circumstances of his hiring by the University of Wisconsin--he received an appointment in Economics, the School for Workers, and the Industrial Relations Research Institute (IRRI).

00:03:16	JS discusses his research grant to study the movement from blue- to white-collar work.

00:05:31	He talks about teaching a collective bargaining seminar for graduate students.

00:07:53	He became director of the IRRI in 1968-1971.

00:09:04	JS describes the IRRI during the 1960s. He goes on to talk about sources of funding for graduate students.  

00:13:04	He mentions changing the curriculum to make students take a course on computers.

00:14:27	He talks about creating budget lines for economics department faculty who taught industrial relations.

00:17:41	JS says that the death of Gerald Somers was crucial to the fate of the IRRI because he thinks that Somers would have been able to achieve tenure-granting authority for the Institute. JS goes on to point out that some economics faculty, including Bob Lampman, worried that the new mathematicians would have a disproportionate influence in the economics department if the IR faculty were to leave for a new industrial relations department.

00:22:09	JS taught half-time from 1986-1991.

00:23:02	He discusses the problems facing the IRRI in the 1980s: its status as an interdisciplinary program rather than a discipline; its failure to recruit top-shelf students with specific interest in labor issues; its increasing focus on business school topics; and the retirement of prominent economics faculty.

00:27:35	He thinks that the College of Letters & Science encouraged the death of the IRRI.

00:29:10	End of side.

Tape 3/Side 2

00:29:12	James Stern talks about the attitude of Letters & Science administration toward the Industrial Relations Research Institute. He also assesses the impact of industrial relations teaching assistants in organizing the TAA.

00:34:26	JS evaluates the prospects for industrial relations programs at other universities; he thinks these will survive because there is still a job market for IR graduates in corporate structures.

00:43:17	End of side. End of tape. End of interview.

Third Interview: Tape 4 
(July 8, 1987)
Tape 4/Side 1

00:00:18	James Stern relates his educational background. He received a PhD in economics from the University of California-Berkeley in 1954. 

00:01:36	JS describes the process by which new directors for the Industrial Relations Research Institute were selected. He notes a change after Reed Tripp departed: the directorship was no longer a permanent or self-renewing position. Tripp’s successor, Gerald Somers, decided that the director should be elected as in other campus departments. Now there is a search committee composed of former directors.

00:05:03	He talks about the Regents’ removal of Robben Fleming. Fleming had been brought in to run a “neutral” institute–that is, one that did not cater to either labor or management interests. However, Fleming ran a conference on union security in the late 1940s that favored the union shop. The governor and regents, irked by this move, abolished the Industrial Relations Center as a result. Faculty who remained recreated this entity as the Industrial Relations Research Center to focus on research rather than public policy.

00:08:07	JS describes Elizabeth Brandeis.

00:09:32	As director of the IRRI from 1968 to 1971, JS worked to integrate the Institute into the structures of the university; he had to clarify the IRRI’s budget lines and authority to grant degrees.

00:13:14	JS discusses various IRRI committees. The advisory committee consisted of one member from seven different departments as well as chairs from other standing committees.

00:15:29	Gerald Somers set up the Center for Vocational Education in order to fulfill the stipulations of a Ford grant. It was at this point that the Industrial Relations Research Center became the Industrial Relations Research Institute.

00:20:54	He describes the informal status of the IRRI within the university during his first term as director. When Ed Young was chancellor, he made the IRRI report to the dean rather than to the chancellor’s office. The Institute received favorable treatment because Young was a former IRRI director. By the time of his second term as director in the late 1970s, when Irving Shain was chancellor, the IRRI’s favorable treatment ceased; part of the reason for this was the university’s budget difficulty.

00:25:07	JS discusses the struggle during his second term as director to preserve funding for IRRI students. The dearth of financial aid has depressed enrollment in the IRRI.

00:28:21	JS talks about the IRRI’s relationship with the School for Workers, the business school, and the economics department. Budgeting problems arose because of the IRRI’s placement within the College of Letters & Science.

00:36:10	The need to raise funds stimulated calls for a professional degree program in industrial relations. JS therefore revised the curriculum to include the following four fields: collective bargaining, personnel, international studies, and wages and manpower.

00:41:21	JS favored the departmentalization of the IRRI. He thinks the Institute was bought off by allowing the administration to fill special needs (such as hiring and granting tenure) rather than wielding those powers directly.

00:45:56	End of side.

Tape 4/Side 2

00:46:10	James Stern discusses student participation in the committees of the Industrial Relations Research Institute.

00:49:59	JS describes one of his master’s students, James Marketti. He talks about how Marketti brought collective bargaining savvy to the TAA. 

00:56:02	JS served on a team to meet with the TAA, whose chief bargainer was Marketti.  Eventually, the academic relationship between JS and Marketti broke down.

00:59:22	He thinks the IRRI had a better relationship with labor organizations than did the TAA.

01:00:42	Recruitment of minority students to the IRRI was disorganized.

01:02:30	The most significant change in the IRRI curriculum occurred when JS instituted the four fields of study during his first term as director.

01:06:03	JS describes the exchange program between the IRRI and Warwick University in England.

01:08:12	JS reviews his academic career in the 1970s as well as his involvement in labor arbitration.

01:10:08	During his second term as director, the IRRI received a grant to conduct training courses for the Brazilian ministry of labor.

01:12:39	By the mid-1980s, JS spent his second semesters in Hawaii, Australia, and the London School of Economics.

01:14:17	JS is optimistic that the IRRI will continue to thrive in the future by adapting to new contexts.

01:16:02	He talks about the IRRI library.

01:21:09	End of side.  End of tape.  End of interview.

END