UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #473
DAMER, JACK

DAMER, Jack (1938- )
Professor of Art
At UW: 1965-

Interviewed: 1994	
Series: Printmaking
Interviewers: Warrington Colescott, Arthur Hove and Barry Teicher
Length: 3 hours, 26 minutes

Hiring by UW; Print program at Carnegie Mellon; Print programs in 1960s; Lithography; Impressions of UW in 1960s; Subject matter; Teaching; Popularity of printmaking; Critique; "Points of Departure"; Print shows; Print constructions; Lecture on print forgery; From prints to print constructions; Cycles of artist; "Streetsweeper"; Creating print constructions; Print examples; Isolation; Intuition; His mission at UW; Art and contemporary aesthetic; Current academic standards; Artist-teacher.

First interview session (December 7, 1994): Tapes 1-2

Tape 1/Side 1

00:00:48	JD did his undergraduate work in art at Carnegie Mellon (at the time, Carnegie Institute of Technology) in the early 1960s.  After earning his BA, he enlisted and spent six months in the Army Reserve.  Through the influence of an army buddy, he worked in illustration and graphic design, his undergraduate emphasis, for about nine months.  JD returned to do his graduate work at Carnegie Mellon, graduating with an MA in 1965.  He got some teaching experience while he was there.

00:02:05 	Upon graduation, JD sent out approximately thirty letters of application, including one to UW, which had advertised specifically for a printmaker.  After sending a follow-up letter, he got an interview.  

00:03:29  	JD decided to specialize in printmaking in graduate school because it was a technique that benefitted from a long developmental period, which was integral to his own approach to art. Though he started out doing etchings and woodcuts at Carnegie, he switched his emphasis to lithography after one of his instructors returned from Tamarind with new knowledge about lithography; JD was thus influenced by Tamarind.  From that time, he became completely immersed in this medium.  Since he pursued a printmaking rather than a general art degree, he was required to learn a variety of printmaking processes, all represented in his master's show.  This gave him the expertise that enabled him to teach lithography at UW.  

00:05:52  	At the time he applied to UW, JD did not work often in color lithography.  The UW art faculty members liked his work, but were concerned by his lack of experience in this area.  He explained that technically he knew about color but did not feel comfortable applying it in his own work.  

00:06:37  	JD was not familiar with the UW art program at the time he applied for the position.  The chairman of the Art Department at Carnegie knew Dean Meeker and spoke highly of the UW printmaking program.  Meeker's work impressed JD as a young printmaker.

00:08:34  	JD was born and raised in Pittsburgh.  He talks about friends from Carnegie.  One of them, who now teaches at Tyler, lettered invitations for Jackie Kennedy at the White House.  Jack Butler taught at the University of Illinois and eventually moved to Canada and started a print program at Baker Lake.

00:09:47  	Carnegie had a "cover," or introductory, program in printmaking, but there was no "real" emphasis like there eventually was at UW. Two people taught printmaking at Carnegie: Robert Gardner and Jo Ann Maier. It was a small and under-equipped program that Gardner held together "by baling wire."

00:12:21  	JD found the printmaking environment very exciting at UW, though quite different from Carnegie. Generally, he found the students here to be very good, though not quite as good as at Carnegie since the latter was a professional art school. He discusses the Bohemian mind set of art students in the 1960s. The productivity of faculty such as WC and Meeker set a good example for students. There were some very good students at UW, such as Lois Johnson and Russ Gordon, who are now teaching in various institutions throughout the country.

00:15:17  	Students in JD's life drawing class at UW were not quite as committed as those at Carnegie. The instructors at Carnegie were "first-rate"—they were to be found in the Department at all hours. The curriculum emphasized a traditional art background rooted in design, drawing, color, and painting. There was even a course dedicated to materials. 

00:18:00  	When JD arrived at UW, WC was on leave, and Clair Van Vleet was teaching his classes. JD had no room in which to hold his classes, and he irritated Meeker by letting his students grind lithography stones on Meeker's etching table. JD describes an incident that angered Ray Gloeckler. JD and Meeker had disagreements over the issue of space. He talks about the room he obtained to do relief printing and lithography in the old Journalism Building.

00:21:23  	JD helped design his own space in the Humanities Building.  The space had been originally designed to accommodate pre-Tamarind lithography with smaller stones and black-and-white images. The Tamarind experience changed lithography; thus his space had to accommodate the equipment of the "new" paradigm of lithography.

00:23:00  	JD discusses why he chose lithography as his primary focus.  He quickly became involved in this exciting medium and in all its new processes and sought out students with the same interest. He took his students to Chicago to visit the Art Institute and Jack Lemmon's Landfall Press. JD's work is very much predicated on a sense of draftsmanship and drawing, and lithography fit in very well with these skills. He was enthralled with the unbelievably rich value ranges he could achieve with lithography as opposed to pencil drawings.
  
00:25:12  	JD received grants to do research in the British Museum, workshops in Paris, and famous European print shops. One time, he found twenty lithography stones in a London basement print shop. The new "Tamarindesque" lithography was producing images that people had not seen before in terms of color, scale, and materials. Most of these materials and techniques had been used by commercial printers in the 19th century, but the knowledge was not widespread. Printmakers rediscovered techniques and materials that had fallen out of favor.  For instance, JD owns a 300-page turn-of-the-century manual entitled The British Lithographer that is full of "new" ways of to deal with the stone. 

00:27:53  	There was a sense of excitement in the UW Art Department in the 1960s.  Many artists had their sights set on New York. Visiting big-name artists came to UW, including William Wiley and Wayne Thiebaud. Everyone wanted to be on the cutting edge. The Vietnam War protest made the University a vital place. It did not influence JD's work, since he did not use it as a vehicle for political statements, but it did Bill Weege's, who built a fence around the Humanities Building with war protest slogans on it. At the time JD came, he was using automotive/mechanical themes in his work since he was fascinated by machine parts and forms. At first, he photographed automobile wrecks.

00:30:33  	End of side.

Tape 1/Side 2

00:30:40  	JD found these themes interesting because they were current—the automobile was an essential but ignored aspect of our culture. He worked with these images for several years.  He found mechanical structures to use as subject matter in automotive magazines. He used both the whole and parts, and distorted the size. This use of subject matter was his attempt to establish an identity. His treatment of the images was fairly traditional.

00:32:40  	JD's work was influenced by Robert Rauschenberg's use of photographic materials.  JD began using subject matter photographically on the stone and plate by observing Weege's use of photographic materials in his war protest images. He found images for Weege, a graduate technician who was later hired by the Art Department, to photograph. 

00:34:02  	When JD got to UW, the only lithography equipment available to him was four Fuchs and Lang type presses, invented around the turn of the century; he purchased two new Brand presses when the Department moved.

00:34:46  	There were not any big stones available when he arrived. He found a store of them at a basement print shop in London in 1966. They were very cheap, but shipping was expensive.  An old printer was working in the dusty basement room that looked like something out of "Hogarth or Oliver Twist." JD bought twenty lithography stones before the print shop went out of business. Once the stones arrived, they were dropped by crane in the old Journalism Building.  

00:37:08  	The Art Department accumulated stones from other sources as well. Sessler's daughter donated some of his equipment. JD printed a stone for her that Sessler had been working on when he died. The availability of stones is a continual problem, because a couple of them get broken every year and the Department does not have enough money to purchase new ones. JD prefers stones to plates. The stone is a much more forgiving medium to work with; it allows tremendous leeway for corrections. However, working with stones and cranking the press by hand seems archaic to many students today.

00:40:09  	JD took over Sessler's lithography classes.  He never had to overcome the memory of Sessler as their ideology and techniques did not conflict.  

00:41:45  	WC, Meeker, Gloeckler, Phil Hamilton, and Walter Hamady were in the printmaking area of the Department around the time JD came.  Weege, who was a graduate student at the time, was hired as a faculty member five years later.

00:42:50  	Claire Van Vleet was brought in as WC's replacement while he was on leave. JD was impressed by her work and classroom at the Philadelphia College and particularly by her interest in photo methods, which he felt was an area in which UW's Art Department needed to become more sophisticated. JD and Van Vleet were part of the "younger group" in the Department. He was impressed with her commitment to teaching and her art. They have kept in contact over the years and have even done editions of prints together. She was a tough but fair teacher.

00:45:20  	JD discusses his teaching responsibilities. Lithography (at least one section per semester), life drawing, basic drawing, intermediate drawing, illustration, and seminars comprise the range of courses he has taught while at UW. Beginning lithography is JD's favorite class because the students come with little or no understanding of the process and leave knowing how to print. So much of teaching art is subjective, and in the beginning class he can tell he is making progress with the students. Also, JD teaches most effectively in a structured environment, and the beginning class meets regularly and completes regular assignments.  

00:47:55  	Most advanced students like to work independently, but JD still gives them projects now and then to be sure they are exposed to new information.  He gave out fewer projects during his earlier years at UW because he felt the students were more likely to experiment with and be excited by their work.  

00:49:07  	Students are different now. Talent remains fairly constant, but it is more difficult to get them to a given technical level. This is because the print process is so technical, and today's students lack the physical dexterity of the students of the past; for instance, some of them are not familiar with concepts as simple as which direction to turn to tighten something.  

00:50:46  	Also, JD does not think art is attracting as many talented people for several reasons.  Students are more job-conscious, and the more talented students want to do something that generates income. In addition, very good students can shop around for support, and UW's Art Department is no longer in a position to offer teaching assistantships to incoming students. In the 1960s, students wanted to learn printmaking at UW because of its reputation; now its aura is fading. Students are more broadly based now, meaning that it is more difficult to turn out printmakers who master a particular print method as in years past.  

00:53:51  	The popularity of art media is a cyclical process. JD believes printmaking as a medium is not as fashionable with students as it used to be in the 1960s and 1970s.  However, it is institutionalized in the curriculum and more highly developed than before.  Since fewer students wish to specialize in printmaking, universities are cutting back on printmaking faculty and programs in an attempt to remain on the cutting edge. JD believes interest in printmaking has leveled off and that it may take some time for it to become popular again.  He is somewhat disappointed, because his commitment to teaching printmaking is higher than that of the students to learn it.

00:57:27  	JD attempts to teach through example and critique. WC notes that JD is known for his legendary critiques of student artwork. He structures his critiques in different ways:  some are individual and some are group. He chooses the group critique method if he will be covering general issues and ideas. He uses a student's work as an example to make a point relating to all of their work. JD talks about different approaches to critiquing. He critiques using the terms "effective" and "non-effective" rather than "good" and "bad," since art is a matter of subjective taste. He believes he could improve this process by giving them more advice for improvement after the critique. He is always very candid about his opinion of a work.

01:01:07  	End of side.  End of tape.

Tape 2/Side 1

01:01:13  	JD looks at the technique, intention, scale, use of medium, mystery, and currency of the work. He believes that social and cultural influences are inevitably reflected in that work.  He also looks for an awareness of the work of contemporary artists; he feels that students today are "very shallow" in this area. Familiarity with the work of other artists is important because it gives an artist a sense of where he fits in the world of art and the different possibilities open to him.

01:04:19  	Though exceptional talent has been something quite rare among his students, JD has had many good ones. He talks about some of them. They are scattered all around the country; many are teaching, and some work in professional print shops.

01:07:56  	Some of his students are attempting to start a "Point-of-Departure-type" portfolio with their more recent work. JD considers the original Point of Departure project a very ambitious, unique, and well-done project by WC and students. JD's only criticism is that some of the pieces in the portfolio were not the artists' best work. WC comments on the tremendous amount of work that goes into putting together a portfolio. Two Point of Departure shows circulated for three years, mostly in university galleries. They talk about other shows, such as that at Bradley University and Colorprint USA.

01:12:49  	The closing of mid-range galleries in recent years, leaving only the "blue chip" and emerging artists' galleries, has made it almost impossible for a "pure" printmaker to break into the New York gallery scene. The nature of the market is prohibitive for relatively unknown artists. This is the reason most artists in universities gain most of their reputation and exhibition experience through national competitions. Those organizing the shows can actually make some money, but, as WC attests, it is a lot of work. The students actually put the show together. For JD participation in these shows is not worth the time and money involved and museum exhibits have proven the best way to enhance his reputation. Exhibiting extensively in shows, on the other hand, has proven beneficial and enjoyable for WC.

01:19:05  	There are more new shows than in the past, for instance more invitationals and exhibits arranged around special themes. JD and WC talk about theme shows, including "The Packwood Diaries." JD likes theme shows because they force him to approach ideas from a different angle. He discusses the work he did for "The Packwood Diaries"; he tried to make the literary metaphor visual.

01:22:18  	JD discusses his method of making "constructions," or objects, from prints. He started creating constructions because he became bored with the traditional two-dimensional image. The print constructions make a new image from old print editions. His idea was to extend "the notion of the prints into three dimensions." Though it was not JD's intention, many people view them as decorative. His sales have been mostly to women because they associate the objects with quilting and weaving. JD views them more on a theoretical level, as an extension of the flat, two-dimensional print—he uses old editions to make single, rare object or new editions. He talks about making copies of his three-dimensional prints. He has always been interested in collage, as can be seen in his Van Gogh image and his drawing machine construction. JD enjoys "doing research," i.e. buying parts at hardware stores for his pieces.  

01:27:09  	JD talks about a lecture on print fraud he gave at the request of the Madison attorney's office. Several galleries in town had problems with print forgery. Photo reproductions of Chagall and Dali prints were being passed off as originals. JD gave a demonstration to police on lithographic forgery. Forgeries are often very difficult to identify.     

01:31:50  	End of side.  End of tape.  End of interview session.

Second interview session—Studio (December 21, 1994): Tapes 3-4

Tape 3/Side 1

00:00:03  	The majority of JD's pieces in the faculty show are print constructions. He characterizes the relationship between the constructions and "pure" prints as evolutionary. He does not feel he has abandoned printmaking—he began to feel limited and creating three-dimensional objects gave him the ability to expand, both inside and outside of printmaking.  The recent work of other artists has also influenced this evolution.

00:02:57  	Five years ago, JD had a big breakthrough: he took the pressure off himself to produce a certain type of art (perhaps due to the realization he was never going to be a famous New York artist) and began to do the work he wanted to without qualifications. Concurrently, the work he saw in the art world did not interest him anymore because the visual aspect was diminished. Thus, he is not as interested in being a part of the conventional art scene.  He talks about definitions of art and gives examples.  

00:06:13  	Due to his training, JD's art started out very traditional. He then shifted into using machine parts, and from there into creating nonobjective color pieces, which he eventually cut up and dimensionalized. The aim of the latter was to extend the notion of prints by using print editions to create a new "collaged" piece, an object (cf. first interview session). Since this breakthrough, JD cares less about making a statement as a printmaker, and more about creating work that attracts attention and makes a statement.

00:10:00  	JD describes the cycles he has gone through as an artist:  1) early work; 2) auto parts and machine themes; 3) color non-objective lithographs; 4) cutting up prints; and 5) print constructions. Each cycle improves upon those that came before. A sense of intricacy, layering, and mechanicalness remains in his current work; at the same time it displays new subtlety and more structure. JD appreciates others' opinions about his art but does not let them affect it much.

00:12:50  	JD attempts to respond to new technological developments. He tries to reveal the contemporary world through the eyes of a "sensitive" observer, for example in "Streetsweeper."  It was motivated by his disgust at random shootings and guns in neighborhoods. He regards a gun as something that is beautiful from a technological standpoint but is simultaneously threatening. He used gun magazines and catalogs as sources—"Streetsweeper" is a compilation of the most interesting parts of different guns. The piece, which combines the features of an M-16 with a Hoover vacuum cleaner, is a parody of an actual gun called a streetsweeper. It was meant to attract those interested in guns and provide them with information on their lethalness, written onto the piece itself and presented in both satirical and serious ways. A cruder presentation might have made "Streetsweeper" more effective. JD elaborates on some of the symbolism in it.

00:19:14  	JD discusses another piece, inspired by a dream, also with writing in it.  The complexity of his works is only understood or noticed by some viewers.  

00:21:55  	He occasionally asks for student opinions of his work to get alternative viewpoints.  He mostly works late evenings.  The interview was conducted in the Humanities Building on the seventh floor in JD's studio.  His teaching studio is an extension of his personal studio.  

00:24:57  	He works on many different pieces at once.  He talks about some that are still "in-process" and potential parts for future pieces.  

00:30:29  	End of side.

Tape 3/Side 2

00:30:33  	All of JD's work in the faculty show owes much to his interest in drawing.  He describes himself as a three-dimensional draftsman rather than a sculptor, giving the example of his "Drawing Machine."

00:32:43  	JD explains how he manipulates materials to create his print constructions.  

00:34:15  	Papermaking activities at UW did not influence JD's artwork.

00:35:22  	JD shows samples of his artwork, including his first two prints made from cut-up paper. His prints became more colorful as time went on.  

00:38:03  	JD displays print samples from his graduate school days, mostly etchings and engravings using traditional techniques. Walter Hamady used one of the automotive-theme prints in his book The Drivers. JD shows samples of his work during his first years at UW.  He displayed many of these in exhibits.  

00:42:43  	JD shows the first print he got into the Philadelphia Museum. It was chosen as the best lithograph of the Print Club show. There are several prints using mechanical images.  He began using photographic images in his work. He did mostly small print editions (ten or so); his largest edition was 250.  

00:46:58  	JD displays examples of work, some on war themes that came after his mechanical phase. He distorted large images or photographs. He continues to draw, and shows some samples.

00:51:45  	He discusses a suite of six etchings in an edition of six, based on images from mechanical books.

00:52:50  	JD shows some of his "newer" works, including etchings.  He points out one color etching he displayed by itself and later cut up to use in other pieces. He has used templates to make marks, to give the pieces a more mechanical feel. He shows some prints that incorporate material from others. Printing plates in different orders produces pieces that are alike yet different; one suite he has shown as a triptych. He did very small editions of many of these.  

01:00:09  	End of side. End of tape.

Tape 4/Side 1

01:00:19  	JD shows an example of a print he did not like, a photographic four-color separation of a crowd. He cut it up and has used it in many of his images over the years. He displays different prints and discusses the techniques he used to create them. JD explains his use of the same plates with different colors to create various prints. He points out an image of a mechanical hand he did for a class portfolio entitled "New Collaboration."  He actually created one piece, burnt it, and did a video of it. 

01:07:18  	JD could find one black-and-white and one or two color constructions that represent this period in his artistic life for the planned book on UW printmakers. Last year, he did three lithographic images of a Hogarth composition. He left the composition three-fourths empty, and then invented his own figures to fill out the piece.

01:10:41  	JD often begins a piece by making sketches. He displays some early drawings of "The Little Drawing Machine," a piece he recently exhibited in the faculty show.

01:12:04  	It is not simple for JD to determine when to move on to a new work cycle. At present, he is not sure where his work is going, but he hopes it will keep improving.

01:13:10  	JD often suffers from the artist's equivalent of "writer's block." Sometimes he feels like getting out of teaching entirely. When this happens, he spends a lot of time outdoors riding his bike.

01:13:44  	JD invests much physically in his work. Outside of teaching, artwork, and bicycling, he does not do much else. His social life is not very active. This could be partly due to the isolation of the Art Department in the School of Education. Also, there is generally very limited interchange among the Art Department faculty about their work; they do not want to share their vulnerabilities with other faculty members. JD shares his artwork with only a few people.  However, a friend from London visits every once in a while and "really lets [JD] have it"; JD looks forward to this because he benefits greatly from the criticism.

01:18:57  	JD has kept notebooks to explore the ideas that come to him. He no longer keeps them regularly and instead does drawings of things he finds interesting. The final product does not necessarily resemble the early sketch.

01:20:40  	JD believes teaching is very critical today. He considers art education as a very important aspect of one's education. A non-aesthetic society would be very dangerous, "and yet that seems to be the direction we're going." JD sees his mission as imparting to his students limited aesthetic sense so they can look at artwork and appreciate it at a certain level. The mission of the Art Department is to turn out young people who are not necessarily artists, but who have developed some visual vocabulary and can make some distinctions about art. Too many people view things indifferently.

01:23:52  	WC remarks that if the cultural landscape is barren today, imagine what it will be like in the future. JD discusses how the public's current taste in movies reflects his concern about the state of visual arts today. The problem is that art has evolved through modernism and post-modernism to a point where it is so rarified that the general public cannot understand it. JD does not blame the public for that—most artists he knows spend a great deal of time studying the field and trying to synthesize what they find into something that has a sense of originality or newness to it. How can a person with no background in art view this and grasp it? People respond to realism when they go to the Elvehjem Art Museum and evaluate if a work of art looks time-intensive and "serious."

01:28:06  	When JD attended college, students knew who the best artists were among them. This was possible because the work was predicated on traditional elements. Now the field is so wide open that there are poor quality shows, and the students will think they are good. This makes him wonder about the educational system.

01:28:38 	And today, the thing that’s so scary is you’ll see -- you’ll see shows up here that are just the worst shows. I mean, they’re the most horrendous stuff. And you’ll find students responding positively to them, see, where it’s so wide open. And somehow, then you wonder about the educational system. If -- you know, I’ll give you another example.  They had a velvet show up here. Did you see that? They had a velvet show up here, and the first thing I thought about when I thought velvet show was kitsch because, you know, Mexican painting, bullfight paintings on velvet. You know, come across the borders in truckloads. You know, you spend $30. And so they put the word velvet up like out of the dictionary to announce the show, velvet, a soft material.  So I went and I got a dictionary and looked up kitsch and put down kitsch, k-i-t with a hyphen meaning bad taste in art, usually associated with fine art. And I put that up next to their poster.  They got furious.  They were furious. They thought I was putting down their show.  

01:32:48  	I think that attitude is irresponsible because I don’t think that’s a responsible attitude on our part to say, well, we’ll give them all A’s, and then let the marketplace sort them out. Yeah, because what happens is, you just flood the market with all these people of the same degree, and that’s why it’s hard to get a teaching job now.  

01:36:24  	Grading inflation. Yeah, and I think what it’s done is it -- what it’s done in my case, and I don’t want to sound like a martyr here or that I’ve got the only complaints. But what it’s done is that it’s created this environment in terms of grading and evaluating, where you literally cannot evaluate or grade the person the way you want to. I cannot deal with students the way I really want to.

01:40:10  	Yeah, I’ll give you an example of that, is that I usually do a photo project in my litho class, where the students use photo materials. You know, you can take this and photograph it or take your own photos and make it into a photo litho.  And to give them an example, I always show slides. So I showed, I always show like 50, 60 slides of artists that have used photograph. And one of the ones I showed for years was a Les Krims. Les Krims was quite a famous photographer. You don’t hear much about him now.  

01:46:18 	And the issue was, the issue always was, well, how, you know, they’re both getting degrees, but I don’t understand. I mean, what’s the criteria here, you see, which I think was legitimate. You know there has to be some way you -- and I feel you can come up with a somewhat of an objective criteria. I had my ten points, that I always go through, that I feel I use to judge a work, you know. And the idea that we just can’t, you know, that everything’s beyond any kind of criticism because, you know, everything is so fluid, I think is silly.  

01:47:31 	I wanted to put this in as a fact that I don’t consider myself an artist.  I don’t consider myself a teacher. I consider myself both. And I think because of that, I’ve had to compromise some things. And I’ve had to compromise my work. I’ve had to compromise teaching because of the work. And I’ve had to compromise the work because of teaching.  And, probably if I’d have just gone to New York or something, it might have been a lot more exciting to do that, and I might be further along with the work. You don’t know.  I probably would’ve have run into more -- but, you know, we all make these choices.  But I think the fact that, that I did make a choice here, I don’t blame anybody for it. I mean, it’s my choice. I mean, I’m -- you know, if I feel like I stayed here too long, which I probably feel I did, I could’ve moved on to something else. I have nobody to blame but myself.  

01:49:52 	One last thing on that too is I think -- I think the loss of some of the faculty has hurt the place in terms -- it certainly hurt my attitude here. I mean, I think like Warrington retiring, John Wilde, even [Barille?], all these people were consummate professionals, Gibb Bird.  Even if you didn’t like maybe some little part of the personality, you could not deny that they were consummate professionals, and we’re just not getting that kind of -- I mean, you just can’t replace the Colescotts.

01:51:50 	The rest of the interview is about the interviewers and interviewee reminiscing about the good time of the department. Warrington Colescott talks about having, a really unusual situation in that you had a department that was very young. I mean, the department really was restarted from nothing, little residue. And the hiring was from people of about the same age, and I think they did look for professional performers and workers. And so we did have a nucleus that worked. And, you know, we made mistakes, we were thwarted, we tried to do things that didn’t come off, and so it began. You know, we had a young department that then went into a middle-aged department, and then began to get an old department. So we went down too, but it was a good ride. And, and I think there’s certainly still very good things in place.

01:54:15	End of side. End of tape. End of interview session.

“END of Oral History #473”