UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #1262
CARR, BOB; GROENEWOLD, ROGER 

Interviewed: 	2012
Interviewer: 	Tiffany Schroder
Index by: 	Kara Bissen
Length: 	2 hour, 4 minutes (total)
Series:		Eau Claire's LGBT Community, 1960s to present

Abstract: As a couple of over 40 years, Bob Carr and Roger Groenewold provide a rich history of the Eau Claire LGBTQ community. The speak of the shame of being labeled a "sexual deviant" during the Vietnam War. Both work in education--Bob in a high school and Roger at UW-Eau Claire admissions--and they speak of the changes and struggles in that arena.  The couple help found the community theater in Eau Claire and spoke of that community.  They also provided a painting of activism in Eau Claire, with a strong presence of Drag and the disintegration of the LGBTQ community center.  They comment on the increased visibility and acceptance of homosexuality. This interview shows the development and evolution of gayness in Eau Claire.

Key Words: Eau Claire, Vietnam War, Coming Out, Catholicism, The Draft, UW-Eau Claire, Domestic Partnership, Gay Bars, the Eau Claire LGBTQ Community Center, Theater, Drag Queens, Pride, Theater, Activism, Christianity, Straight acceptance, media visibility, Dohmer, Stonewall, sickness, AIDS

Interview Session 1 (June 17, 2009): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction. 

00:00:36	Question: Paint me a picture of Eau Claire as you have grown here. Answer: Bob and Roger spoke of the development of their relationship in Winona.

00:03:17	Question: When did you come to Eau Claire? Answer: 1966.

00:03:33	Question: Where did you grow up? Answer:  Both Bob and Roger grew up in Minnesota.  They first met in Minnesota.

00:04:15	Question: Bob, when did you come out?  Answer: Bob came out when he was 22 years old. He had no one to identify with.  He began practicing Catholicism because he heard they perform miracles.  His straight roommate walked in on Bob having sex for the first time.

00:06:11	Question: Bob, did you come out to your family? Answer: Bob says that his family came out to him. Bob says because "you can only have a roommate for so long."Casted as a "sexual deviant" to not be drafted in the Vietnam War, a person who worked in the draft office started making advances on Bob.    At the draft office, once labeled a "sexual deviant," they had to carry around giant folders with "sexual deviant" written boldly across. His family asked if the man was making advances because Bob was gay and that was Bob's coming out process.  His brothers would defend him if anyone spoke poorly of Bob. Bob and Roger speak about being gay during the draft for the Vietnam War.

00:09:46	Question: Can you speak more about being Gay during the draft? Answer:  It was described as "terrible" and it made both feel like "freaks" and "ashamed."  Roger says it is better to go through the pain of being labeled a sexual deviant than to serve and be persecuted for being homosexual.  The couple had a gay friend who served and was investigated.  Investigators asked Bob and Roger about him.  His friend was investigated after he found naked pictures of men in his office.  Bob describes "witch hunts" that could happen in neighborhoods where neighbors would kick out anyone suspected of being gay. 

00:13:23	Question: Roger, are you out? Answer: Due to his work as a tour guide, Roger chooses to not be open in that setting.  While working at the university, he never flaunted it but would support the community when he could.

00:14:17	Question: Roger, what was your coming out experience like? Answer: Roger says his coming out process was slower. He did not admit it to himself until the day he went to the "selective services." His screening in Milwaukee for selective services was said to be the most embarrassing moment of his life. All day, he had to walk past naked men with a folder labeled "sexual deviant."  He describes it as the "Scarlet Letter." He says he is grateful to have met Bob because a lot of gay men "disappear"-- either from suicide or alcoholism.

00:15:41	Question: Did you feel a lot of stigma? Answer: Roger speaks that the stigma felt while working in higher education.  He knows of promotions he did not receive because of his sexuality.  The couple speaks of how their sexuality is becoming more acceptable.  A sign of this is how the two are addressed and respected as couple.  They also note that gays are coming out at a younger age. Their son, Lee, was open with his sexuality.  This made Bob nervous because he has had his nose broken before because he was a "faggot." They note how the neighborhood has accepted them. Bob thinks it is because they behave well.  Their gayness is not noticeable.

00:20:30	Question: How have you seen the gay community in Eau Claire change? Answer: There was a lot more secrecy. The community was not very large but now there is huge picnics, fundraisers, drag shows.  The couple started the community theater over thirty years now.  The Queens of the Valley for the last few years has been performing at the community theater.  The show at the theater is different from the shows at the bar.  There is a prominent drag community.  There is a  female impersonator, Miss Dee Lovely, who is a respected activist in the area. Roger says Miss Dee Lovely is an example. 

00:24:15	Question: How has the drag community changed? What about the trans* community?  Answer: Roger doesn't remember anyone doing drag.  There was drag in the Twin Cities and people would go to the Cites.  Roger also has no memories of transgender people in the community and figures that anyone who is transgender has probably left the city. 

00:25:56	Question: Are you aware of anyone who is transgender in Eau Claire?  Answer:  There was a prominent community leader, Ann Marie, who transitioned from male to female. She was a Mason and a prominent business leader.  She came out to her classmates at the class reunion.  Ann Marie remained with her partner and are a gorgeous couple. There is another transgender person who helps out with the community theater.  Also, there is a person who transitioned at UW-Eau Claire.  The couple says that although there are still struggles, there are more options and visibility.  Roger speaks of his nonexistent sex education. The couple notes the increase visibility of the LGBTQ community.  There are now resources for parents who think their child may be LGBTQ. 

00:33:42	Question: How has the awareness of the LGBTQ community change in the school system? Answer: At the university, there used to be persecution of gays in the residence halls.  A student group joined together to stop the persecution.  The openness of a high school depends on the individual school. Bob works in a high school.  His son, Lee, started a GSA at that high school.  Some schools in the area has had some issues.  The community center in Eau Claire is "lame." The leader of the community center passed and the center has struggled to find a focus.

00:36:40	Question: Can you speak of the community center? Answer: There was no focus and Chris Ioni was a leader but he passed. They did have space in a church but moved to a space that had too high of rent.  Because of financial reasons, the community center has been reduced to a e-mail list. 

00:37:43	Question:What events did the community center hold?  Answer: The community center puts on picnics and potlucks.  Roger says he does not "enjoy hanging around gay people." Bob corrects him and says that Roger doesn't like going to events just because he is gay.  The couple is not very involved in the center but donates.  They feel like the space is needed for younger people struggling with their identity. 

00:39:10	Question: Have you participated in Pride? Answer: Bob went once with this son and says that age is what keeps him from attending Pride. 	

00:40:07	Question: Was Lee involved with the community? Answer: He was active.  When he was younger, they had him in the youth group at the community center. After high school graduation, he helped out the community center with computers. 

00:43:47	Question: I've heard that you were foster parents to Lee… Answer: When he was young, both his parents passed.  He was in and out of foster homes and the homes of family members.  Lee was sent to Fall Creek, the school that Bob works at.  Bob tries to care for new students at the school.  Bob had Lee work on computers and had him join theater.  One day, Lee asked to speak with Bob and said "I think I'm like you inside," meaning he came out to Bob.  Bob and Lee would talk a lot and later, Bob introduced Lee to Roger.  Lee was staying with a "good Christian" family and they found out he was Gay and kicked him out of the house.  Lee was going to be sent outside of the district but Bob's colleagues called Lee's social worker to say Lee must stay.  They found foster care for Lee and later Bob and Roger became his foster parents. 	

00:49:40	Question: How is Lee's experience as a gay male differ from yours?  Answer: Lee came out when he was six.  He totally accepts himself.  When Roger would be a counselor, he would ask his clients if they would change their sexuality if they could. Roger says this is very telling question and he thinks that Lee would not.  Roger thinks that it was helpful for Lee to be in a small school.  He says that small schools can be intolerant or they can be supportive. Bob said it was helpful that he was there as a gay man.  When Bob would go on school trips Roger would come with and there was no issue.

00:49:36	Question: At first, Bob, you did not want to sponsor Lee's LGBTQ organization. Why?  Answer: Bob says that it is a generational thing, where still feels like he is partially hiding.

00:50:50	[No Question] Roger taught three years of high school and was at the university for thirty years. He knows that missed promotion and job opportunities because he was gay.  In general, he says the university setting is open. Bob says that twice there were movements to fire him.  He had a supportive administration who promised to not let him be fired. 

00:52:12	Question: How have you seen curriculum change? Answer: Bob says that gay issues get slipped into class. Roger says that at the university is changing. There is more openly gay people in the administration.  Conversations are had in the residence halls. Bob says that he thinks it is easier to be more open at the university because in the high school there are Conservative Christians to deal with. 

00:54:43	Question:This openness was unheard of when you were younger? Answer: Of course. Bob shared that once his friend told him that he was "a faerie but a good faerie." Bob was taken aback because he did not know that was how he was perceived. Once Roger was beaten up as a kid because he wore a certain color scarf one day on the school bus and that color was said to denote being a faerie. 

00:55:58	Question: Have you had incidences of being targeted because you are gay? Answer: Not in years, but they use to get late night threatening calls. There cars were egged.  People would stop by and say things. One time Bob was at a bar with a gay hair dresser. Someone tried to punch the hairdresser, the hairdresser ducked and Bob ended up getting hit. Roger says he does not feel threatened.  The two travel as a couple. 

Interview Session 2 (June, 2012): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:04	Question: When did you start seeing Gay role models?  Answer: At the university, the Dean of Students was not openly Gay but everyone knew he was Gay.  Through the Dean, Roger met Steve Gunderson, a moderate Republican U.S. Congress representative for Osseo.  Bob thinks that the best role models are those who are gay "but is not their mission to be gay." Few Come Out as gay so there is not as many role models. There was a point in time when there was a movement to Out other people. The couple was in fear of being outed.  Neil Patrick Harris is mentioned as being a gay role model. Although there are many gays in acting, few Come Out because they do not want to get typecasted. 

00:04:27	Question: You said that actors were able to be out during the silent film area but now they cannot. Why do you think that is? Answer: The media didn't exist during the silent film era like it does now. They did not have gossip columns or photos being leaked. Although it was accepted within the silent film community, it was not accepted in the larger community. 

00:05:30	Question:You said there was a movement to Out people?  Answer: Yes.  There were people from the LGBTQ community who came out and wanted others to come out as well. There was a publication, Out, that existed to out people. They would go after politicians or other leaders they thought were LGBTQ and would try to out them.  In the 1970s-1980s, people were trying to prove they existed so they wanted everyone out.  It was more in larger cities, like San Francisco.  

00:06: 50	Question: Did you notice a purge in Eau Claire? Answer: Not that we know of but people might have been run out of town.  There were times in Wisconsin when it was hard to be gay, like in the Jeffery Dahmer era. Negative gay people get more press and Gay pedophilia get more press than straight pedophilia.  Both feel like Eau Claire is a safe place to be. The spoke of the gay-borhood and the benefit of the visibility of gay people in the neighborhood.

00:10:09	Question: Can you speak more of the theater? And your experience being LGBTQ in theater?  Answer: The theater is a wonderful place for kids to be gay.  Bob wanted to have an adult theater so he started one with Roger. Now the theater has a many shows and workshops for children.  In recent years, the theater had a roast of Bob.  Bob says the roast made him feel more comfortable as a couple.  The roast had many gay digs but were not negative.  The theater, they say, is a place to find community, grow into oneself and be dedicated. In any community, Roger thinks that the community theater is a place where people can be gay, find other gay people and be recognized for talents.

00:15:05	Questions: Are you aware of any other gay-friendly spaces? Answer: Since the beginning of time, there has always been a gay bar or a gay-friendly bar. The Unitarian Church is also a welcoming space and the United Church of Christ. 

00:16:28	Question: How have you seen the relationship between the LGBTQ community and the church change? Answer: There was no safe-zone in a church. Roger says one of the saddest groups growing up was the gay Catholics. Bob spoke of his experience of when he tried to be Catholic. He says it hard to be turned away by one's own God. Roger said he thinks that he would be very different if he would have went to a small religious university instead of a larger, public university. 

00:18:22	Question: Can you speak about the gay bars in Eau Claire? Answer: There has always been a gay bar in Eau Claire.  There was the Monarch bar, where there was socializing. Now there is Scooters, which targets the older, gay alcoholics and the younger dancing gays and their friends.  Roger commented that the bar scene has changed now that people are not so closeted. 

00:19:41	Question: Can you speak more about Queens in the Valley? Answer: It was a fundraiser for a new elevator and was the brainchild of a female impersonator who was an actor under Bob. They weren't frightened but didn't know how it would work for the community theater to have a drag show.  They did not know who would show up because the bar crowd would not pay fifteen dollars to see a drag show.  The place was packed! It was mostly straight women. It started four years and have had three shows. Bob shared a story of a straight man approaching him in the grocery store to tell Bob that he went to the drag show with his wife and children.  Bob thinks this is a commentary on the straight acceptance of the LGBTQ community. 

00:23:01	[no question] Doyle found a way to have domestic partnership happen although the current governor wants to get it away. Roger said he was trying to live a straight life his whole life so it meant a lot for him to get married.  Bob did not think it would be as emotional as it was. He said it made them feel like a real couple.  They couple ran into issues before regarding hospital visitations. Roger was not allowed to visit Bob in the hospital until Bob threatened to discharge himself.  Domestic partnership allows for hospital visitations and inheritance.  When most gay people die, their family gets their inheritance unless they have a strong will. Bob shared a milestone when he no longer selected "single" and said he was with Roger.  The doctor was accepting when Bob was expecting to be stigmatized.  Roger also had a supportive doctor.

00:28:10	Question:Can you expand on the process for domestic partnership?  Answer: To be domestic partners, the couple went to the court house.  Bob's brother cried over the phone when he found out he was married.  His nieces' also called when they heard the news. Roger thinks the biggest change in the next decade is gay marriage. Roger does not think it is a big deal because people just want the rights, it is no longer a religious things for people. [in this part of the interview Bob shows the interviewers a statue made for them commemorating their love.]

00:31:56	Question: What do you consider to be milestones in Gay history? Answer: Stonewall. Before Stonewall,the Gays would just melt when the police would have raids. One time the Queens "decided they had enough and took their high heels to the cops." It made headlines and gave Gays courage.  It showed that they could stand up.

00:33:18	Question: How was Stonewall covered? Answer: There was just a little paragraph printed in the local paper but it was passed around every Gay person in the area. There was large media like there is now. It showed that they could fight back. 

01:33:50	[No Question]:Another milestone is gay television. "Will and Grace" was Paul Lind was a comedian on "Hollywood Squares" who was a very gay man who did mostly straight humor. Every now and then he would slip in a gay joke and that meant a lot. The "Mary Tyler Moore Show" was not gay but was accepting. Ellen is also noted. Television is important because after lacking visibility for so long media can be seen as a sign of acceptance.  Stonewall caused it for people to fight back. Gay Pride was a major moment too. Bob thinks the celebration can lack dignity.  Roger thinks the focus is put on the extremes. Bob thinks Pride is being mainstream.  

00:37:30	Question: Where you in Eau Claire during the AIDS crisis? Answer: That was a very hard time. The gays were rightfully blamed for the crisis before it became a straight crisis. The son of a friend died in his twenties of AIDS. The couple also volunteered with a straight man who was dying of AIDS. They said it was hard to see him deteriorate. His straight wife kept Bob and Roger in the loop.  The AIDS crisis was so awful. It was a death sentence before medicine was found.

00:40:54	Question: Was there activism in Eau Claire? How did it compare to big cities? Answer: There wasn't  much activism in Eau Claire. The Twin Cities had some activism. When they were volunteering, there was a county high of 30 cases.  Bob says that although there wasn't a lot of activism, there was a low per capita cases of AIDS so there is some protection there. Bob shared two stories: one of a man who was shunned from his family after they found out he contracted AIDS and another story of a man who contracted AIDS and his family was very supportive and continues to do activism.  Once at a AIDS fundraiser, Bob and Roger were surprised to see Representative Ron Kind there with his wife and baby.  

00:44:22	Question: Do you know of any resources in the area regarding AIDS? Answer: The campus is very good at making sure health services and residence halls address it.  The community used to have posters hanging in bathrooms for AIDS awareness but now Roger doesn't know of any resources. 

00:45:00	Question: Where you on campus during National Coming Out Day?  Answer: The only thing that was happening while he was there was there was efforts to start a resource center with a library.  The campus group and faculty are doing wonderful things. The journalism faculty members take San Francisco Pride and started a gay film festival. 

00:47:00	Question: Did you hear of the negative remarks about the Queer Film Festival? Answer:Roger heard a little about a small minded individual but Roger think that comes with small town America. 

00:47:15	Question: How have you seen the relationship between the straight and the LGBTQ community change?  Answer:  There is more tolerance and acceptance. The city council recently approved domestic partnership benefits for city employees. City council has young people on council. 

00:48:45	Question: What was it like to be gay when it was thought of as a sickness? Answer: Bob had a "personality disorder." He was diagnosed by a psychiatrist. He tried to cure himself and tried dating women, but that did not work. Roger had relationships with women. He had relationships with women and if he thinks he would have stayed with a woman if he did not meet Bob. Roger never felt ill. In the process of becoming a counselor, he found self-acceptance.  Roger went to New York for a few months when he was young in 1965. He was advised by an older gay man to leave New York.  There was so much opportunity for gay sex that it could ruin a person.

00:54:36	Question: Was there activism in the 1960s for gay rights? When did you start seeing activism? Answer: In the 1960s, people were not ready for that yet.  After Stonewall, activism began but not in Eau Claire.  In the Twin Cities, after Stonewall, theaters began to have gay shows. The arts started it all. Going to see those shows was being an activism.  There was gay activism in Milwaukee. There was some activism when a man was entrapped by the police and people would rally to free them. 

00:56:45 	Question: Can you expand on that persecution?  Answer: There would be decoy prostitutes used to capture gay men.The police would intimidate and prosecute.  

00:58:26	Question: There are moments of progress but there are moments where things go sour, like you mentioned Dahmer. What are those moments? Answer: The AIDS crisis.  It affected everyone.Bob spoke of the AIDS quilt increasing awareness in the straight community.  It was so carefree of a lifestyle until the crisis and then it was a terror. Now, there are states voting down gay marriage in their constitution. It is a slap in the face. It is upsetting that people vote against civil rights.  The states that are recognizing marriages is a step in the right direction.  They shared stories of gay weddings they attended. The couple did not think they would see they day where they could go to a gay marriage.

01:02:20	Question: What do you hope will happen over time? Answer: Bob hopes that there will not have to discuss this issue any more.  Roger says it is important that this is documented but they both want to not have sexuality be an issue.  They hope for more role models and more legal rights. 

01:05:18	End of Interview Session

End of Oral History #1002