UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #309
O'NEIL, ROBERT M.

O'NEIL, Robert M. (1934- )
President of UW System; Husband of Karen O'Neil (#307)
At UW: 1980-1985 

Interviewed: 1985		
Series: Merger
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length: 5 hours
Transcript: 78 pages	
 
Appointment and briefing; Previous employment offers at UW; Views about position of System president; Pay plan controversy and problems in distribution of increase; Relationship with chancellors; Board of Regents and background of decisions on Veterinary School and nursing degrees; Legislature and University; Governors Lee Dreyfus and Anthony Earl; Relationship with Madison campus; Issue of quality vs. access; Accomplishments other than pay plan; Observations on background of Merger; UW-Milwaukee; His attempts to protect Madison; Current move to regularize academic staff; Legislators supporting UW; Comparison of UW System with other university systems.  

First Interview Session (June 26, 1985)
Time	Keywords

00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction [begin Tape 1/Side 1]

00:00:24	Appointment announced week following interview so not as much briefing by regents as RO would have liked.  Example, no chance to discuss AAU representation issue.  Took office late in January.  Young left last week of January.

00:11:00	Transition complicated by recent death of Joe Holt, secretary to regents, by Don Smith's surgery so had Warren Carrier, Platteville chancellor, serving as acting vice president; not a satisfactory circumstance.

00:14:50	Don Smith, 65, about to retire in any case.  And had come to feel identification with Madison campus.  His difficulties with WSU due having urged elimination of Whitewater graduate school.  Was viewed as Chapter 36 person.  Was admired in Green Bay and Parkside.  RO lists four previous approaches to take positions at UW.

00:18:41	RO well aware of difficulties he'd encounter.  Some turned out to be less difficult than expected, e.g. relations with legislature.  Shain and Young had described UW president job at a conference in 1979.

00:20:56	RO doesn't think job unmanageable.  Discusses the notion.

00:22:15	The pay plan.  Cites examples from other systems where much smaller differential pay was fought bitterly.  RO wouldn't have wanted to ask chancellors to accept the formula he proposed.  Put them in a difficult spot.  So made recommendation without asking them to accept. 

00:27:15	Discusses proposed alternatives. [end side 1; begin side 2] Legislature wouldn't have accepted 12% when study committee RO recommended 6%.  15/10 ratio implies second rate for cluster campuses but discrepancy was in other direction in late '60s, early '70s.

00:31:57	No attention paid to that.  Viewed as ancient history, pre-merger.  Discusses percentage differentials between Madison and WSU in mid '60s and how and why it dropped and how it compares to other systems now.  RO not disturbed by uproar.  Deep divisions but cluster campuses getting 10% more than would have gotten on own.  Most will appreciate it.  Successor has this issue resolved.

00:39:11	Problem of distribution of the increase.  Particularly a problem between Oshkosh and Stevens Point.  Reasons.  Divisions not just between Chapter 36 and 37 campuses.  More pronounced is east-west division.  Eau Claire example.  One of RO's first steps was to pay western campuses and Madison for enrollment growth and settle debts owed by eastern campuses, e.g. Milwaukee.  RO wiped out old debts by paying campuses.

00:42:36	Relations with chancellors? The inescapable disappointment of being president is that system can only look good at expense of campuses.  Notes that when he was in similar position, didn't invite his president to visit senate, meet with deans.

00:45:34	Regents.  Dreyfus appointees good, independent.  Examples.  Earl's group not as even.  The competition for presidency of the board between Beckwith and Lawton, solved when Dreyfus decided not to run again.  The decisions a major event. 

00:54:14	Only mistake regents made was to support two Ph.D. programs in nursing. Reasons--women's issue one. [end tape 1; begin Tape 2]

00:57:10	Vet School issue.  Legislators' position.  Rural-urban split. 

01:00:17	Nursing only issue regents didn't support RO.  Would have liked more study academic staff; pushed on statement of expectations for college bound kids. 

01:03:04	Legislators, not chancellors, responsible end-running by chancellors. Example. Power of Milwaukee media to push programs.  

01:04:20	Tendency of legislators interfere when attention focused on University. Periodic. Issues not pursued, e.g. public disclosure, collective bargaining.

01:07:46	Calendar issue.  Wisconsin legislators less meddlesome than in other states.  Rapid turnover in legislature means issues not endlessly pursued.  Turnover on board of regents.

01:13:03	Liked, admired Dreyfus.  Didn't blame him for 4.4% cut. Thought second reduction unfair.  Likes Earl.  Same age, congenial.  Still puzzled by veto of supplemental appropriation in 1983 budget.  Legislative leaders puzzled also.  Never explained.  Dreyfus and Earl first two phone calls when announced departure. 

01:21:28	Complexity of system structure in Virginia in contrast external structure of UW.

01:23:26	[end side 1/begin side 2] Relations with Shain.  Historical tension between chancellors, presidents.  

01:29:07	So this strained relationship doesn’t have to do with the way Merger affected UW-Madison? Examples in other systems--Berkeley, Illinois, Indiana.  Dismal alternative represented by Ohio. Madison has fared less well than Michigan, Berkeley, UT-Austin. The irrelevance of structure to the success of merger.

01:37:26	Discussion of situation at time of merger.  Likely consequences if Eau Claire part of Chapter 36 group.  Leonard Haas knowledge of merger history.

01:40:42	More on percentage differentials.  Breaking up as of 1967. Fate of Madison salaries if trend continued.  Madison no worse under merger.

01:44:35	Impact of collective bargaining in other systems where allowed on non-flagship campuses.  Not necessarily disruptive.

01:45:58	Association with Madison faculty?  Served on Ph.D. committees.  Teaching in law school.

01:50:07	[end tape 2: begin tape 3] Chancellor-president relations.  Where was Fleming's office.  Important for system offices to remain on campus. 

01:53:13	Encourages chancellors work with local legislators.  If out of bounds, legislators call system.

01:59:12	Change in view of system.  Sees importance of solidarity; knows not always possible.  Chancellors on line, need support of legislators. 

02:00:47	Issue of quality vs. access.  Virginia policy.  Shain's request in 1980 for shift from enrollment funding formula.  Led to instructional funding study.  System-wide.  Shain's proposal couldn't be adopted for single campus. Currently no incentive to restrict enrollment due prospective enrollment decline.  UT-Austin only institution grappling with problem.

02:06:04	Q. re feelings about job in last 6 months.  Frustration of time spent in an essentially procedural matter.  Other things achieved forgotten.  True in 1960s also.  RO's feat of getting rid of limit on sabbatical leave.  Salary increase has gone through.

02:10:00	Presidency not a position to stay in more than eight years at most.  Issues are of process; relationships not stable due rapid turnover.

02:13:50	RO's January report of things wanted to do in next 45 years, e.g. more emphasis on national and federal relations. Doesn't think legislators at odds with UW.  Marlin Schneider annoyed; Dave Helbach troubled.  The awkwardness of party for new legislators after accepted Virginia job but before acceptance announced.

02:20:15	End of session.

Second Interview Session (July 25, 1985): Digital File
Time	Keywords

00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction [begin Tape 4/Side 1]

00:00:46	RO describing two old prints he showed at last regents' meeting--picture of Madison campus and picture of several normal schools.

00:04:23	Madison a multi-campus University since 1956. Story re death of Fred as illustration of friction between Madison and System. Separation of Extension even more crucial. Only one other system with separately administered extension. Cites other examples.

00:11:18	Has wondered how much consciousness existed in Madison that major state urban university was in the making. Again cites examples of other non-urban campuses that haven't developed their urban branches. Caliber of Milwaukee.  Need for strong ties with a principal city.  Even E.B. Fred saw necessity, and Harrington certainly did.

00:17:38	RO has said at regents' meetings that Madison is at heart and center of system.  Went to Steve Born to make sure he didn't object to letting Milwaukee give an architecture degree.  Has resisted Ph.D. for engineering at Milwaukee.  

00:22:22	Question about whether he could have established this view of Madison from beginning, e.g. in inaugural speech.  Describes resentment about pay at faculty meeting in one of cluster campuses and his citing of his own experience at San Francisco State.  Biennial budget requests shaped to favor Madison, e.g. in library support.  Chancellors privately acknowledge superiority of Madison.

00:29:02	[end side 1; begin side 2] Wonders were cluster campus faculties told they would be equal at beginning of merger.  

00:30:57	Academic staff issue.  Impetus to regularize came from legislature, Howard Fuller, not from System.  Katharine Lyall's study and report to regents. The System committee had two personnel managers on it from Madison Gas. Their horror at having different rates for apparently same jobs. O'Neil has proposed getting the special cases of academic staff.  Has suggested it to Bryant Kearl, Irving Shain, Bernie Cohen.  But they've not done it.  These people may be trapped in bargaining unit otherwise.  Discusses Virginia where only two categories--classified or faculty. Thinks efforts to improve academic staff arrangements a failure.

00:40:51	Thinks a myth that cluster campuses don't have faculty governance.

00:41:22	Answering some questions raised in Ross interview: first, about athletic policy. Does System impose policy in athletics or does Madison faculty govern it?  Senate does not play a strong role of itself—it is imposed by charter of the Western Conference. He compares this to the Pac-10.

00:46:03	Continues with Ross’ questions: about the use of Foundation money for non-Madison programs. RO explains that this is a very minor issue, with Vilas Professorships going to Milwaukee by special agreement and WARF money distributed to campuses.

00:55:14	Continues with Ross’ questions: complaint LS has heard that System unwilling to give figures that are needed (e.g. System Committee on faculty pay).  RO thinks maybe didn't ask right question. [end side 1; begin side 2]

01:00:01	Question about Loftus proposal to redirect bright students.

01:04:08	The coalition of four in legislature who have helped University.  David Clarenbach and Robert Travis no help.  Clarenbach's AIDS proposal.  UW has defeated collective bargaining bill four times.

01:13:43	Cordial reception of RO by legislature.  Contrast elsewhere.  

01:16:39	Points out that personnel issues far worse than issues like salary, collective bargaining.  And there have been no bad personnel issues at Wisconsin.

01:22:11	Q. Could the wrong president wreck Madison?  A. Could upset balance.  Example MacArthur Chair.  In this state awarded to System.  Fear of Madison people that might go to one of other campuses.  RO's experience at San Francisco and Berkeley were valuable for his understanding of Wisconsin situation.  Closes with examples of wisdom found in some of state colleges, using examples from California where professors exiled to state colleges during McCarthy era.

01:29:05	End of Second Interview Session

End of Oral History #309