UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #1000
LENZKE, LINDA
Narrator: 	Lenzke, Linda
Interviewer: 	Gray, Leanne	
Date: 		2009
Location: 	Madison, Wisconsin
Oral History#: 1000
Series: 		Madison’s LGBT Community, 1960s to present
00:00:00.00	 Start of Second Interview Session
LG: 	All right. My name is Leeanne Gray. Today is May 30, 2009, and I'm here interviewing Linda Lenzke. And this is our second interview. And we're going to start off with talking about friendships, and how important women have been in your life. 
00:00:17
LL: 	Yes. When we did the first interview, I kind of gave an overview of some of my relationship history and coming out. And I touched on how that process was very related to meeting women, becoming involved in feminism, and having my coming out be very tied into that process of kind of expanding in the community. But I wanted to focus a little bit more on how important friendships were for me as a lesbian. That community is just essential to my own personal kind of health and satisfaction in life as a lesbian. When I was married, before I came out, most of my I needs, my emotional needs, were met with my family and with my husband. And then I met Gloria, who I kind of talked a little bit about in the first interview, at work, and she was my first lesbian crash. And what I realized, when I got involved in that friendship, was that connecting with women was much more emotionally intimate. And my relationship with Gloria kind of opened me up to a desire to have more of that in my life. Later on, when I got involved in the consciousness-raising movement, and now I was exposed to a group of women who were feminists, who were very fluid about how they defined themselves. Some self-defined as lesbians, some were married like myself, some were experimenting with relationships with women and had primary relationships with men. And so it was a very interesting time. And it was a time pre-AIDs where people were experimenting sexually in more open ways. So it was sort of like friendships and sexual relationships could kind of-- I guess sex with friends was born during that period of time, and there wasn't a lot of guilt associated with that. It was really about experimenting and expressing oneself. I, on the other hand, did not consider myself by nature a promiscuous person, of having more than one sexual partner at a time. So I was married, and even though I started experimenting with opening up to the idea of having women in my life as lovers, it was really difficult for me to be managing my marriage and then having an affair with a woman. That was not part of how I was wired. So it was really kind of difficult. And so my first couple of relationships with women, I had a lot of guilt associated with it, too, because I was still married. So I was trying to sort out, did I want to stay married? Did I want to stay committed to that relationship? Did I want to leave that relationship? Did I want to explore what it might be like to have a committed relationship with a woman? At that time I got involved with Catherine Rouse, who was my first woman lover. And she was the founder of Lysistrata. And very quickly, I had a very intensely emotional relationship. But on some levels, it wasn't satisfying in that Catherine was putting a lot of her energy into Lysistrata. And even though she wanted to have more of a committed relationship with me, I wasn't ready to leave my husband. So that relationship ended. And Catherine, throughout the rest of our lives together, before she passed away, we had a very kind of stormy, either black or white kind of relationship over the years. And she would enter and then leave my life off and on throughout the remainder of her life. My first kind of fully romantic relationship, but had not become sexual, was with my friend Megan, who was a photographer. And Megan and I became romantic friends, much like some of the books you read of the 19th and 20th centuries, of women getting involved in romantic friendships. And Megan and I were very close, were very affectionate. Wrote each other, in essence, love notes and love letters, and treated each other as if we were significant in that way in each other's lives, but we were never physically lovers. Although most people in the community who saw us together thought we were. And I think I mentioned in the first interview that there was a period of time when I still married but I had my sexual, committed, married relationship with my husband, and then I had this whole romantic relationship with Megan. And then we would go out on dates and do things together. And my husband was very aware of it, but he accepted it for what it was, and he wasn't challenged by it. But I think that relationship with Megan really opened me up to I really wanted to pursue something more, and I wanted to be able to settle, to some degree, on was I lesbian. I never considered myself bisexual, so the idea of living my life where I would have a husband and I would have women lovers never really seemed like a choice for me. And during that period of time, Mary, who had become my lover when I left my relationship with Frank, she was kind of that bridge between my married life and my lesbian life. And I loved Mary, to a great degree, but Mary was not the person I saw myself having a committed relationship with. But I was totally not ready yet to be in one. So Mary and I spend a fair amount of time together when I was first living alone, after I separated, and then Mary and I lived together for only a few months, and it became very clear that our relationship wasn't going to be able to weather all the changes that were primarily going on with me. So we had kind of a hurtful breakup, even though I tried to be honest with her throughout the relationship. You know, it's one thing to say to somebody, I don't see us being in a committed relationship. But when you live together, you're lovers, you're with each other every day, you know, one's heart kind of leads the way. And so I wasn't too proud of how that ended. Obviously, I was at a point where I still learning a lot about relationships. And then I met Sandra, who was someone who I immediately felt an attraction with on lots of levels, but also intellectually. I mean, one of the things that probably characterized my marriage, more than anything else, was Frank and I were intellectually very compatible, and challenged each other. And that was a big part of the attraction for me in that relationship. And Sandra was the first woman who I met that really was attractive for her intellect and her creativity. She was a writer, is a writer. And I met Sandra at a Women in the Arts conference where I was with Mary. And Sandra was partnered with an older woman at the time. And because Megan was a photographer, Megan wanted to take pictures of Sandra and her partner. And so the four of us kind of spent a lot of time together at the Women in the Arts conference. And following the conference, I ran into Sandra a few times, and we started dating, and had a relationship for a period of time. Sandra, on the other hand, like many people during that time, which would have been the late '70s, was not wanting to be in a monogamous relationship. And so she was also seeing somebody else. And there was a point where Sandra proposed that the other woman she was seeing, and I, and Sandra, could all take a vacation together. And I just remember thinking, what in the hell are you thinking? And realized that OK, this has gone to a point where it doesn't fit my personal values and what I want. And it was being reinforced for me that I was by nature a monogamous person, even though I had not always been monogamous. It was being reinforced for me. So Sandra and I separated as lovers, but what we ended up becoming, after a period of time, was very good friends. The glue in our relationship was our commitment to each other emotionally and intellectually. And I had spent a lot of time co-parenting her children during the time that we were together. And Sandra and I started going to the very early incarnations of the Lesbian Moms Group. And her boys, Seth and Ross, who were young at that time-- they were like seven and five-- became ongoing kind of like stepsons to me throughout their life, and I still connect with them as adults. And they've been a very important part of my relationship with kids. And Sandra and I have had challenges throughout the years. I think because there was always a sort of a romantic component to our relationship, there would be times when we would find ourselves being single, and hanging out together, and we would become kind of each other's surrogate partners. And then usually one of us would get involved in another relationship, and we'd become a little estranged for a while. Although if we had a fight with our lover, we tended to always commiserate with each other. So Sandra would fight with her girlfriend, and call me up, and we'd hang out again, and I would fight with my girlfriend, and call Sandra, and we would hang out again. So we've been in and out of each other's lives throughout all of our adult lives. And so that's been a real important relationship for me. And the first relationship that I got into after Sandra that I thought also had the potential for being a committed relationship was the most disastrous relationship in my life. It was with a woman who was still married to her husband, and she had three kids, each from a different relationship that she'd had. So each of the three kids had different fathers. And it was probably the most insanely sentimentalized and romantic fatal attraction I've ever been in. And it is burned out really quickly. We moved in together. We were we set up house. I was raising her kids. And it just quickly burned out. And I think the main reason was during this period of time, when I was coming out and identifying myself as a lesbian, and exploring these relationships, I was also starting to abuse alcohol more. And I think by the time Deb and I were involved, my alcoholism had really came close to its first, you know, peak, as far as indicating that I had a serious problem. So we separated. I stopped drinking for a period of time. Although I didn't do any work around that. I didn't do any therapy, or go to any AA meetings, or I didn't do anything to really change any of the behavior. I just stopped drinking. And as most of us know, that's a really not very productive way of making any kind of significant change. So I had a period of time where I had a number of short-term kind of romantic relationships with women. And then I was ready to really fall in love, and that's when I met Lori, who became Lori number one, because there were a couple of other Loris in my life. But Lori and I also co-parented her son, and became actively involved with Lesbian Moms, which I've been involved, on some level, in and out throughout my adult life. And a lot of what we were doing at that time-- this was before, women were using different fertilization techniques-- these are usually women who had either been married and had a baby, or in Lori's case, she and her partner did-- Joey was a turkey baster kid. But it was at a time when that was much more unique. And Lori's partner at the time was a nurse, and they both worked in the neonatal section of the hospital. So they were in an environment where they were little ahead of the curve on what they needed to do, and were able to find a sperm donor amongst a friend. And So Lori and Joey and I lived together for a few years. But unfortunately for me-- and for them-- that was a time when I started drinking again. And between Lori's family history and my family history with alcohol, we became very co-dependent with each other, and both of our alcohol use was really kind of out of control, but mine more so. And then I stopped drinking, and sought help, and went into outpatient treatment, and then the relationship ended. Which was kind of a double whammy for me. 
00:15:21
LL:	The gift in all of that was, I got sober. I got help. And I found a new network of friends. And this is what I sort of wanted to focus on, was that in recovery, I met a number of women who were lesbians in recovery. And they became very into integral to my kind of growing wariness in terms of how to integrate my life, how to be a healthy person physically, emotionally, and spiritually, and that was a pathway for me. And so for a number of years, I was involved in this group of women who, some of them had been estranged from their family for different reasons. We had done a family intervention for alcoholism with my parents, and I was estranged from my family during that period of time, except for my siblings. And we had what we used to call the Orphan Holidays, where we would get together at Christmas and Easter and other occasions throughout the year, and have what amounted to family potluck holiday celebrations. And then in between those times, we supported each other. We did things together. Whenever we needed to support somebody, if somebody was having a hard time, we would pull together as a group. And so for a number of years, that family of friends was a critical and integral part of my life. Then during that period of time, I met Lori number two. And Lori number two also was a parent. She had a little girl named Kelsey. And Lori and I, after spending a period of time dating and living separately, decided to move in together, and were together for a few years. And that was my first long-term, sober, committed relationship. And I had to learn all over again how to be a sexual person so sober. Because I realized that so much of my sexual identity was lubricated by alcohol. And so it was really a challenge to learn how to access that part of myself, and not use alcohol or other things as a crutch. And Lori was a good partner for that. We had a very strong sexual connection and a very strong relationship. And she was at a transition point in her life, too. But then later, it became very clear to her that she wasn't interested in being in a monogamous relationship, which for me was kind of a deal-killer. Because by that point, it had become very clear to me that by nature, that's how I'm wired. So we separated. And I spent a number of months, and probably a little over a year, leaning on my friendship circle of recovery friends. It was my turn to be supported again by them. And that was wonderful. And there were lots of changes within that group. 
00:19:04
LL:	And then I met my partner. It was my midlife partner Tracy, who was 20 years younger and a graduate student in physical therapy. And unfortunately, one of the side effects of my involvement with Tracy was, it freaked my friends out. Because you know, they were like, what are you doing with somebody who's 20 years younger than you? And for whatever reason, they all wanted to sort of like tell me what to do. And even though I trusted them, and they had been very important support people in my life, it's sort of like, when you're infatuated with somebody and falling in love, those kinds of messages don't get heard sometimes. And so I leaned into my relationship with Tracy. And she was a musician, and I was doing I was doing a lot of my comedy then. So we were really kind of bringing out and supporting those creative endeavors that we were each doing. So it was kind of fun. I became a roadie, and hung out with her and her musician friends, and she would hang out and support me doing my comedy. So we had a lot of fun. But it was very clear to me throughout the whole relationship that this could not last a long time. That this was going to be a time-certain kind of a relationship. And then the lesson, again, was that Tracy and I were at very different developmental stages in our lives, and she wanted to explore multiple relationships. And once again, I'm not wired that way. So we separated. 
00:20:53
LL:	And then my most recent relationship was with Cindy, and that was that was probably the closest thing to my lesbian marriage, even though we weren't offered that option of getting married, and Cindy probably would not have gotten married, even if we could've, just simply because she's kind of a grouch that way. We were committed, and in every aspect of our life were married. but she always thought that getting married, or having a commitment ceremony, was like the kiss of death for a lesbian relationship. So we never went down that path. But we did go down the divorce path. So I think if, after a 15 year relationship, you have to figure out how to separate from each other as friends in a loving way, you're doing the same work that married couples have to do. And we've been doing that work. And gratefully, I think we're going to land in a place where we'll be able to be in each other's life. So that, I think, kind of wraps up my lesbian relationship history. And the one last comment I wanted to make is that the lesbian community is so important, that we nurture ways that we can stay connected with each other, share activities, support each other in healing. It's just been a real gift. And I feel very fortunate to be a member of a subculture, however you want to describe it, that has supported me so richly. 
00:22:45
LG: 	You mentioned the Lesbian Moms group, and you also mentioned quite a few different relationships that your partner brought children into the relationship. How hard was that for you to become involved with someone who had kids, enter into this co-parenting type relationship, and then watch it dissolve, and yet obviously you were willing to do it again? And not just once or twice, but if I recall, at least three times, possibly four. So could you talk a little bit about that? 
LL: 	Well, I come from a family of six kids, and I was the eldest. And I always sort of had the family role of being sort of the second-string parent. And so that was real familiar to me. And I think because of that, some of the relationships or women that I got involved with, that may have been a part of why they were attracted to me. Because I was very supportive and enjoyed caring and being part of their children's lives. And those children became very important to me-- almost like extending my own family. It was hard when those relationships ended, and I've had very different experiences with different partners. With Sandra, she has always been very consistent, even though our love relationship didn't last very long, she's been very consistent throughout our friendship of saying, you know, it's really important to me that you stay connected with my boys. And so over the years, I did. And Sandra would invite me to different family events, and we would hang out as friends, and involve both Seth and Ross. And over the years, I developed separate relationships with them. And even now as young men, you know, we don't spend a lot of time together. But I check in with Sandra, find out what they're doing. And they ask about me. And if I ever wanted to spend time with them, or if they ever needed to reach out to me, that would be a very easy thing for us to do. With Lori number one, when she left, it was really hard. Because the ending of our relationship was really difficult. And I think a lot of it was tied into my alcoholism. And, which is sometimes very common with partners of alcoholics, she was not ready to do the work that she needed to do as a family member who was affected by someone else's problems with alcohol. And because that was a family issue for her, too. She had her own history with her family of origin. You know, I think that compounded it. So she did like a geographic escape and moved many states away, and we've not had any contact. And that's not been by my wish, but by hers. And so one hardest things for me was, when we did separate, was talking with her son, Joey, who I grew to love. And to let him know that wherever he was, I still love him. 
LG: 	I would think it would be difficult. I mean, I didn't ask you about that in advance. But you had brought up [UNINTELLIGIBLE] Lesbian Moms group and stuff, and being interactive. And that makes sense with you as the eldest, feeling like that second-string care. And I can see how you could fall into that role very easily. 
LL: 	One thing I did want to mention, too, is recently Lori number two-- and the only reason I'm using number one and number two and that is I haven't asked their permission if I could use their last name. So I kind of feel like protecting their own privacy, that I'll be a little vague. But there was more than one Lori, so I need to give a number. But Lori number two, recently she and I have run into each other, because we both live in the neighborhood. And I was talking about Kelsey, who I haven't seen for years and years and years, too, and who I'd like to see, and discovered that she lives about a block away from me now. She had moved out to California for a while, and like a lot of young people-- she's in her early 20s now, and she's doing different things. And she's now back in the neighborhood. So I've passed on to Kelsey, through her mom, my address and phone and that. And I don't know, you know, sometimes for kids-- she was seven years old when we separated, so her memories of me are probably pretty limited. We may have an opportunity to be reconnected. But those are also some rich memories for me. I feel like I-- at some point, there's always that possibility we can reconnect. 
LG: 	Is there anything else you want to talk about in reference to Lesbian Moms group in general? 
00:28:14
LL: 	No, it's been real good for me to kind of watch it evolve. When we were first together, when Lesbian Moms were first having meetings together, it was just a way that they could talk and support with each other. And then we used to laugh, and we used to call the Real Moms would all kind of hang out together, and they would talk about the issues that would impact on them. And then those of us who were the Unreal Moms, as we like to jokingly call ourselves, would hang out and kind of talk, what it was like to be a stepparent. And as I said, it was early in the group, when a lot of the kids came from prior relationships, when it wasn't like a joint decision by two partners to have one partner get pregnant and raise a baby together as a couple. So we were more or less stepparents. So we had all those kind of blended family stepparent issues to deal with. It was a social time, and the kids would play. And I think it was good for the kids, because they were hanging out with people that they didn't have to explain that they had two moms. And then the Lesbian Moms group, I think, became a little bit more sophisticated, and grew to really kind of deal with a lot of issues, including how to get pregnant, and who we get pregnant, and legal issues around that, and advocating for each other, and advocating for the kids. And one of the things that I did during that period of time was I was a member of the Speakers Bureau for United, which was the organization that predated OutReach, and I spoke a lot about being a lesbian co-parent. And I also did, through the Speakers bureau, a lot of on Drunk for a Day conversations with students and other gay and lesbian organizations, and talked about what it was like to be a lesbian in recovery, and what those issues were. So I did have an opportunity to meet lots of people who were in similar situations, and commiserate, and support each other. 
LG: 	I'm just going to throw this out. We haven't discussed it. But you mentioned United as a precursor for OutReach. As a person that seemed to be involved in a lot of stuff within the lesbian community, were you involved in United and/or in OutReach? 
00:30:51
LL: 	Well, I have been involved. Not in a leadership role, as much as, like many people in the community, I've been able to take advantage of some of their support groups. And when it was United, I attended a couple of different support groups that they had. I also, as I mentioned, became a member of the Speakers Bureau, and that was my largest role for United. And we talked to different organizations, primarily as being a lesbian co-parent, and also being a recovering lesbian. And that was at a time when we worked a lot with the Madison schools. They were forming some of the organizations which are now thriving of gay and lesbian student and parent organizations, teachers' organizations. So I spoke to a lot of groups like that. And that was good. I also spoke to organizations like Briar Patch, which were teen support and respite social organizations. And then in OutReach, I'm currently one of the facilitators for the Women For Women group, which is a kind of a social and discussion group. We meet twice a month, on the second and fourth Saturday of the month. And it alternates between having a discussion-oriented topic meeting with having some kind of a social outing or activity. And it's a very diverse group of women. The main requirement is that you're a woman who loves women. And you can self-define. There's lesbian or bisexuals, trans women are invited. So it's very open, welcoming, accepting group. 
LG: 	All right. Thanks. I know you talked earlier about Catherine Rouse, and you spoke at some length last time about Lysistrata. Is there anything else you would like to add to that period of time? 
LL:	 The one thing-- and I think I mentioned this in my first interview-- is Catherine touched a lot of people's lives in different ways. And Catherine unfortunately suffered from some mental health issues that I think contributed to her death. She was a very dynamic person, an entrepreneurial spirit. She was a very successful Realtor in the last part of her life, and prior to that she was a very creative force in founding and finding the funding to create Lysistrata, which was for me, at least, the first home of a place to go to be with like-minded women. And men. And there were supportive men who hung out there as well. And because Catherine suffered from a mental illness, and because her relationships were highly emotionally charged, even friendships, it was hard to tell, over the years, whether you were going to see the light and happy Catherine or the dark moody Catherine. And at least for myself, that was the nature of our relationship. So she would come in and out of my life. I mean, I remember one time I was working for a screenprinting company-- and this was after she had started Lysistrata, but after she and I had separated, and she was dating a new person. And she was, like, and waltzing into where I worked, and wanted to introduce her new partner to me. And like, the last time I talked with Catherine, it was this huge fight that was unresolved. And suddenly she was on my doorstep like she was my best friend and that we'd been hanging out and having fun together. And it was like, oh, OK. So this is the Catherine that's here today. And it was because she wanted my help in printing some posters of her new logo for the restaurant, and her friend was an artist, and had designed the artwork. So I acquiesced. I thought, this'll be a good collaboration. Maybe it'll be a way that Catherine and I can heal some wounds. I wanted to stay connected to her. And so the light bright Catherine entered my life again for a period of time. But then quickly, another drama happened in her life, and the next time I saw her was the dark, moody, broody Catherine. And it was unfortunate. I think I referenced in the first interview that she had killed her lover and partner of a number of years, Joan, and then committed suicide. So it was a real tragic ending to her life. And there's a whole number of women and men who were part of Catherine's life who share that similar experience, I think. 
00:36:29
LG: 	Are there any LGBT issues in your lifetime that you've seen most changed? 
00:36:39
LL: 	Well, I feel very fortunate to have come out in the late '70s and be part of that second wave of feminism. And so I think one of the first things that I would comment on was, you know, lesbians were an integral part of the whole feminist movement of that time. And yet, to some degree, we were still asked to be in the closet, because we were trying to pass legislation like the equal rights amendment, or it was the whole Roe v. Wade period of time. And so there was there was a real effort to like-- you know, you can be a lesbian, and we're glad you're here working on our behalf, but don't be out. You know? Go back in the closet for feminism. And that was a real difficult thing for me. Because that was happening at a time when I was embracing my lesbianism, and embracing coming out. And I was trying to overcome any remnants of shame that I might have had on a personal level, and to be, to some degree, shamed by a community that I trusted was really difficult. So one of the hardest things and one of the changes that I saw was that there was a period of time where there was a distancing, I think, of lesbians from the feminist movement. And one of the changes that I saw-- and that I did not fully become a part of-- was the lesbian separatist movement. Was women who decided, you know, we no longer want to have men be such a big part of our culture, of our daily lives, of our decision-making. And so a number of women, and some of those women coming from some of the organizations that I was involved in, became lesbian separatists. And on one level, I, like many other women, enjoy the empowering opportunity of, particularly with culture, to be able to go to the Michigan Women's Music Festival and be in women-only space. And over the years, I did a lot of performing at the Lesbian Variety Show, and enjoyed the opportunity to be part of lesbian culture that didn't include men. So that was a change. And now, you know, I've also seen some progress where we're sort of coming back to a time where we're realizing that it's not a black and white issue. And that feminism and lesbianism and coalitions with men can all coexist and happen, and that we don't have to go back in the closet, politically. So even though this whole gay marriage issue-- I have lots of different feelings about it. And I'm still, quite honestly, trying to sort out my position on it. I think it's a good thing that there's a political movement happening as strongly as it is where we're saying, you know, we can do this together. That we can be political, we can be active, we can coalesce together, and that we don't have to have any shame or hide. That we can be open in our lives and that we can ask for all the same rights and privileges that everyone else enjoys, and that we have an inherent right to it. So that's probably the biggest change that I've seen. That we've gone from infiltrating the dominant culture, to then being kicked out of the dominant culture to some degree, and creating our own subculture, and celebrating and nurturing that, and now kind of weaving it all together in a way that I think is really good. Whenever there's an other, whenever we're an other, it's a way that you become kind of second-class. And I think I'm being part of above what makes a country a country, a city a city, a family a family, a workplace a workplace, is that we all are members of that in an equal way. 
00:41:30
LG: 	What did you think about Wisconsin's vote to basically ban gay marriage, or to define marriage as only between a man and a woman? 
LL: 	Well, what surprises me in every state where that's happened, but especially in Wisconsin, is that we were one of the leading, more progressive states. And then we have a rich tradition of progressive politics in Wisconsin. And for us to take such regressive action-- it's hard for me to understand it. I think that's true for a lot of people in the community. It's like, you know, we don't understand how it happened, and it just has to galvanize us more, to become more involved, and to become, once again, more out. I think it mandates that we are out when we can be, whenever we can be, and wherever we can be. 
00:42:30
LG: 	So what changes would you like to see the future for the lesbian gay community in Madison, Wisconsin, the world? 
LL: 	Well, I'm very excited about this project. Because one of my favorite quotes is that history is prologue. And that, you know, whatever happens next in our lives, we need to be aware of what happened before today. And I think this oral history project is really good, because we have a rich history here in Madison, and a lot of people, I think, kind of take for granted some of the things that we've gained. And yet we've also lost a lot over the years, because I don't think a larger community supported it. And so I'm hoping that by knowing what what's happened before us, what's happened in the past, and how hard some of those battles were to fight, and what efforts were made to gain what we have, that we don't lose it again and have to start over every decade or every two or three decades. And so we protect what we have and we move forward with that. 
LG: 	And how do you feel, are you making a contribution, or is there some way that you feel like you can make a contribution above and beyond working with this oral history project? 
LL: 	Well, I think I'm entering that stage in my personal life where I'm becoming sort of, whether I want to be or not, a lesbian elder. And and in some ways, I'm enjoying being able to talk about my experience. It's a way of keeping it alive for me, as well. And so I tend to have lots of relationships with people who are even a generation younger than me. So I have people in my life who are a generation older than me and a generation younger than me. And I think that really enriches and enhances my life. And I think I have a lot to contribute in that way, just by showing up and being active, and enjoying-- the gay and lesbian culture is very important to me. And I see myself plugging into activities, whether they're writing-- I'm going to be doing some more comedy again. I'm working on writing a new comedy routine. Probably my first performance will be at Java Cat. It's a coffee house here in Madison. And they started an open mike night. And probably in July, I'll do my first new comedy routine after a number of years. And I tend to do observational comedy where I reflect on my life, but also my life as it fits into a larger culture. And I've always done comedy about, you know, my life opposed to the dominant culture. How difference is in my life. And I've done, over the years-- one of the challenges for me is most of my comedy came out of dysfunctional family issues and relationship problems. And I'm trying to learn how to do comedy about healthy people living healthy lives, and finding the humor in that. So I'm sure there will be some comedy about aging. I'm sure there will be some comedy about-- I don't want to talk about lesbian marriage. I want to talk about lesbian divorce. Because I think that's the next frontier. If we get married, we're probably going to get divorced, and how are we going to do that? So that's been on my mind. Of wanting to focus on that issue and in a humorous way, because the issue is really not how to deal with divorce, but how to stay married. And so I think, you know, the gay and lesbian community needs a little discussion about, OK. If we want to get married, then how are we going to stay married? Because some of our straight friends aren't doing a great job with that, either. So I think that's going to be the subject matter of my next comedy routine. 
LG: 	Yeah, well, finding healthy relationships and then maintaining healthy relationships take a lot of work. 
LL: 	Absolutely. 
00:47:25
LG: 	Just as a side note, you've obviously been very involved in the community on and off. Do you find that your'e more involved in the community when you're not in a relationship, as compared to when you are in a relationship? 
LL: 	Well, you couldn't see that, because I motioned at Leeanne. But absolutely. And that's something that I want to try to figure out. Because when I'm in a relationship, I think I invest too much of myself into that one relationship. When I've not been in a committed relationship, I invest a lot of my energy into a larger community. So I think in this last portion of my life, I want to be able to figure out how to create more balance. And I think, you know, as I age, I've learned that time for myself is really valuable, and I need that. Time for my family is really important. And gratefully, some of the issues that estranged me from my family in the past have been healed, and we've worked through those, and I cherish the time I have with them now. Friendships and that circle of intimacy is really important. And then moving outside of that, community is something that is really important, too. And I hope that I live my life, and that my life is large enough, even into old age, that I can have a healthy personal life, a healthy committed relationship, healthy relationships with my family and friends and a larger community. And if I can do that, I think that that's really a description of a life well-lived. 
00:49:10 
LG: 	Do you have a role model, or somebody you think about in terms of how you would like-- as you're making changes in your life now and moving forward into the future, is there a role model, anybody that you think about, that you look at as--? 
LL: 	Well, I don't know if there's ever been one person. I tend to be one of those people that, I believe that if I read a self-help book, I should cull one good thing out of that self-help book. If I have a relationship, that even if it's stormy, that I should gain something from that relationship, some insight about myself. If I meet one person, I should emulate one really admirable thing about that person. If I meet a child, I should kind of find out what that child's curious about, and embrace that, too, so I never lose that kind of child wonder and awe. So I don't think I have one role model. But I pick and choose and cherry-pick from every book I read, and every cultural experience I have, and every person that I meet. And it's sort of like one of the things that you learn in AA and in Al-Anon, is you take what you need and leave the rest. And that's probably been a pretty strong philosophy in my life. So where I can, I take what I find in other people that seems to be successful in their lives, and try to integrate it into mine. 
LG: 	So maybe not so much a role model, but obviously you've learned lessons throughout the years that you plan to continue of embracing new things, and constantly adding to who you are, as compared to kind of shutting down or being satisfying with the status quo. 
LL: 	Absolutely. I mean, if I look at my life, one of the things that scared me the most when I was in the midst of my alcohol addiction was that I saw my life getting smaller. And when I look at people who are struggling the most, their lives tend to be small, where they haven't figured out how to break out beyond the constrictions that are either causing them pain or holding them back. And so if I have any wish for myself, it's that I stay engaged enough that my life is always expanding. And I'm not too humble to say that I even learned from the time that I spent with my dog. You know, just how to look at life from the viewpoint of an animal, and paying attention to your instincts and your environment. So one of the things is, life is a good opportunity to learn. So I try to learn whatever I can, wherever I can, and from whoever I can. 
00:52:31
LG: 	All right. Well, I guess my last question to you, Linda, would be, what are you most proud of? 
LL: 	Well, I think if I was to sum it up-- first of all, I'm glad to be a woman. Second, I'm glad to be a recovering woman. And finally, I'm glad to be a recovering lesbian woman. 
LG: 	Awesome. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate your time. 
LL: 	Thank you.