UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #324
YOUNG, H. EDWIN and SMITH, DONALD K.

YOUNG, H. Edwin (1917- )1
Graduate Student; Professor of Economics; Dean of College of Letters and Science; Chancellor; President of UW System
At UW: 1945-1946; 1947-1965; 1968-1987

and SMITH, Donald K. (1915-1999)2
Graduate Student; Professor of Speech; Vice President of UW System
At UW: 1939-1942; 1946-1949; 1973-1986

Interviewed: 1987	
Series: Merger
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length: 4 hours

Causes of Merger; Ambitions of Fred Harvey Harrington administration; WSU chancellors and TAUWF; Political ambitions of Governor Patrick Lucey; Donald Percy's career at UW; Young and Smith's efforts to preserve campus autonomy and WARF funding for Madison campus; Their efforts to stop proliferation of Ph.D. and research programs outside Madison and Milwaukee; John Weaver's presidency; His relationship with regents; His relationship with Legislature under governors Lucey, Lee Dreyfus and Anthony Earl; Important legislators; Problems of personnel policy and collective bargaining in merged system.

Tape 1/Side 1

00:00:01	Young's view of causes of merger.  Adamany's role.  Harrington's presidency.  Consequences of Extension merger; setting up and financing Green Bay and Parkside; his achievements; role of Molinaro in getting Parkside; Harrington's aims in eastern corridor.

00:11:36	Use of WARF money for Milwaukee et al; getting it back.

00:14:30	Weaver; difficulty of understanding a job in advance.  His concern for Madison.  Desire to be liked.

00:20:40	Weaver and Lucey.  Weaver's relationship with Mrs. Lucey.

00:21:54	Importance of merger to Lucey.

00:22:43	Molinaro's abstention on Joint Finance Committee vote on merger bill.

00:23:25	Lucey's strengths as governor.

00:27:11	Young's relation to Harrington when he was chancellor.

00:28:16	Weaver's interests as president.  Mrs. Weaver.

00:29:46	The AAU issue.

00:31:44	Young had friends on regents.  EY's problems with Percy.  Percy's wish to be executive vice president.  Regents' reaction. Kopp.  Haas.

00:36:20	Smith on Percy.  Shain's warning to Clodius re/ Percy's ambition.  Percy's style of administrating.  

00:46:50	The "Saturday night massacre" of vice presidents after merger.  Vice presidents Taylor and Engman.

00:50:39	Lorenz stayed; a protector of Madison.  Young's distrust of Percy, but Percy and Weaver loyal to UW.

00:53:54	Percy's telling chancellors not to go downtown.

00:54:42	Weaver, Young, and the legislature.  Smith's lobbying.

00:57:10	The academic budget planning papers.

00:58:49	Young as irritant to System.  Arlie Mucks' view.

01:01:25	End of side.  End of tape.

Tape 2/Side 1

00:00:01	Merger implementation legislation and Madison campus autonomy, personnel policy.  Ed Muzik, Marshall Wick and TAUWF.  Problems dealing with TAUWF.

00:07:17	Collective bargaining and faculty governance.  Muzik's political incompetence re collective bargaining bills.

00:08:29	Relationship of Weaver to the regents amiable, prevented strife between WSU and UW regents.

00:09:40	Difficulties of Young's tendency to remain administratively autonomous.

0:11:45	Young.  Efforts to maintain Madison strength after merger.  Weaver's pro-Madison attitude.  Percy's budgeting by cost of instruction.  Madison campus lends money to Whitewater.

00:13:36	Effect of merger on Madison.  Helps re/ legislature to be in the System, but hurts not to have regents specifically tied to Madison.  Madison lost power on the board of regents with replacement of old UW regents.

00:16:55	Problem of collective bargaining.  Madison faculty governance apparatus would be ruined by TAUWF collective bargaining bill under merger.  Deal with Fuller, Department of Employment Secretary.  Personnel control would move downtown.  Whether Madison joins or not, TAUWF would bargain for it.

00:19:30	Affirmative action and other federal regulations inflate system bureaucracy even before merger.  Smith.  Poor relations with legislature re/ affirmative action because of pressure to report.

00:21:56	Young takes credit for working out clusters with different missions with Lucey after merger.  Prevented homogenization of campuses.

00:24:19	Young on his relationship with Lucey.  Clusters separated within the budget, based on doctoral programs.  Smith embodied cluster idea into mission statements.  Only Madison and Milwaukee had research missions, others only allowed "scholarly activity" based on independent, non-budgeted monies.

00:27:57	Chancellor of Milwaukee, Werner Baum, relationship with Young.  Strong alliance and respect for Madison.

00:29:31	Question re Engineering program at Platteville, other programs which may have duplicated Madison programs.  Young expressed confidence in superiority of Madison programs.  More concerned about the money.

00:32:06	Smith.  Problem was not between Madison and other campuses but between Whitewater and Parkside and also between Green Bay and Oshkosh.  Smith developed system of protocol, and carved out "service area" districts for each campus.

00:35:19	Young.  Madison had a state-wide service area.  Problem of counter factual judgement of merger.

00:38:53	Smith.  Centralized system is a great threat to the flagship campuses and to faculty governance.  Young criticizes Earl; too concerned about smaller issues.  Y&S prefer Tommy Thompson.  Earl eager to sign collective bargaining bill.

00:43:07	Young's appointment as president.  Appointment of Smith.  President search and screen.  People on the final list, an exceptional group.

00:51:41	Representation of System at AAU.  Young felt AAU membership belonged to Madison, and so system president had no business there.  Not as concerned about Big Ten meetings; wasted time on athletics.

0:54:34	O'Neil had same problem as Weaver; wanted to be head of Madison; taught in law school, etc.  O'Neil and AAU.  Tension between O'Neil and Shain over AAU duties.  O'Neil acting on advice from Jack Ryan (president of Indiana) and Harrington, two great centralizers.  Young's style different than the centralizers.  Turnover of administrators has advantages.

01:02:54	End of Tape 2

Tape 3/Side 1

00:00:01	When Young became chancellor legislature beginning to realize situation more complicated than I had thought.  Carl Thompson very helpful.  A committee was formed.  Molinaro's leaving the Joint Finance Committee at the crucial vote.  The legislator Hauser who wanted UW police put under Madison police.  Strong words.  Didn't happen.  Young always treated very courteously.  Under Knowles administration had very friendly relations.  His chief assistant helpful.  Would get out National Guard which they paid heavy political price for.

00:04:52	After merger Young would go down for budget hearings, following Weaver.  They gave John a hard time.  Could get him flustered.  He'd have a set speech.  They don't like that.  Young less likely to get into direct confrontation.

00:06:10	Lucey set the agenda.  Young liked some of older legislators better than some of younger ones.  Kept their word, spoke directly.  The chairmen of Joint Finance Committee, Molinaro and other man, very good.  Legislature wanted University to succeed, but newspaper reporters always looking for confrontations, stir up trouble.  Some good reporters, one very good one in Green Bay. Newspapers not a good source of flavor.  If not friendly, at least cautious enough not to appear unfriendly to University.

00:09:07	Jackamonis very difficult man, very influential.  Had an assistant who fed him anti-University material.

0:09:56	Smith.  Legislature interested in applying theory—notion of management information systems.  Legislative oversight, zero budgeting, accountability.  Career legislators.  Had nothing to do but learn the ropes, build up power.   Norman Anderson speaker of house when Smith came.  Lucey set agenda but Anderson could civilize it.  Anderson used influence to see UW not badly wounded. 

00:13:13	Young tells the story of how the Capitol Times did him in.  A dirty piece of business.  There was a small meeting, didn't let reporter in.  They campaigned against him, on open meeting law.  Brought dope peddlar Peter Bear in, and Jackamonis then was elected speaker.  From then on life was miserable (Smith).  Reelected in 1977.  Bright, able, but wouldn't talk to anyone.  Office closed to Smith, wouldn't talk to him.  Only at committee hearings, would ask nasty questions, sneer at answers.  Could only meet his legislative assistant—White.  Young tried to get an appointment, couldn't get him.  He knew we were on opposite sides.  He wanted to run things; we didn't want to be run (Young).  Controlled Norquist, Kleczka, turned them into powers, they were dependent on him for their influence.  Midge Miller voted for him as speaker second time.  Felt someone from Madison should be in his camp.  Jackamonis.  Miller.  Smith would talk to Midge about his treatment, she would be sympathetic, would make noise at meetings of Education Committee chaired by Dick Flintrop, which had no influence on Joint Finance Committee and then when it came time to vote, voted for him.  She wanted to keep her chairmanship.  Jackamonis was a ruthless man.  Kept speakership because they weren't certain anyone could beat him, and if you were in other camp you would go into limbo.  Lost chairmanships, memberships, amendments went into limbo.  Midge and one or two others could have defeated him if they had had the guts.

00:20:15	Flintrop not effective.  Friendly, but committee written off because was so friendly.

00:24:18	Governor's executive budget is ceiling on what you will get.  Legislature can move things around within budget.  Lucey put policy into budget.

00:28:45	The Personnel Management Information System story.  Did not include UW.  UW had most sophisticated Personnel Management in country; linked to budget.  In 1975  DOA and governor got UW called a state agency.

00:30:47	Then DOA required same system for every agency.  Lorenz and Smith got Joint Finance Committee to drop.  But later in a committee meeting was put back in.  In end, got it out.  But an example that it's not always to be at the right place at the right time.

00:34:05	Munts's role.  Often legislation apparently for System is really for Madison.  Young has great deal of respect for her. Smith says able, but her primary enthusiasms were for environment and women's issues.  Not on education committee or Joint Finance Committee or subcommittees dealt with education.

00:39:25	On lobbying.  Young frustrated Percy by his independence. Young didn't go down too often.  Can't afford to be seen around legislature too often.  Young had great confidence in Breuscher and Lemon.  What they could do depended on how much authority they were given.  Once Bill Young stopped going downtown, never had anyone down there who had authority.  Breuscher and Lemon would say, you'd better go down, and Young would go.  Bornstein is now the major lobbyist.  Smith says L&B didn't have much authority.  Smith's view of lobbying by University.  Were criticized if invited legislators to Weavers' for lunch.  Young sometimes had them for breakfast.  Jackamonis the greatest critic.  Leadership people—Risser, chairmen of committees.  Got a lot of help from Risser.  Depended on issue who was important. Man from Milwaukee, had been on faculty.  Was on Joint Finance Committee.  Extremely helpful.  Best thing they did was get rid of regulatory policy business.  Not much help on numbers.  They would tell us when things were happening.

00:51:38	Open meetings.  UW profits by genuinely open meetings when press isn't there.  Same with regents.  Could not discuss frankly in front of press.

00:53:07	Flintrop used to bend Smith's arm by the hour about needing UW's help.  He wanted to run University.  As chairman of Education Committee thought knew everything about higher education.  He once said "I wish you wouldn't make policy without consulting me."   He was overimpressed with his own importance.

00:55:51	O'Neil in last year put a lot of money into lobbyists—Bornstein, Judith Ward, another one.  Smith story of Loftus, and Thompson saying they were sick and tired of seeing lobbyists.  Wanted to see the president.  Young says legislators want to see president.  Maine's system.  Faculty members can't do too much of that.

01:01:03 	End of Tape 3

Tape 4/Side 1

00:00:13	Lucey consulted with Young two or three times on regent appointments.  Young liked, respected him.  Didn't agree with him.  Had the Kennedy psychology.  DeBardeleben story.  Harrington and one or two regents ran things.  Young tried to avoid doing that.  Beckwith and Gerrard (raised money for Lucey's campaign).  Lucey didn't consult with anyone in System Administration about regent appointments.  Contrast Minnesota. Smith thinks very fortunate in board they had to work with while he was in System.

00:08:21	Smith would single out Lawton, Kopp, Pelisek, McNamara.  President of board sets agenda.  Grover not a useful member of board.  Was appointed and then used position to run for DPI head.

00:11:14	Dreyfus's campaign and UW rules.  Young made decision and then told regents.  Two or three regents against him but rest backed him.  Strained relations but certainly went to see him. Never took him seriously.  Talked a lot on Council of Chancellors.

00:16:20	Smith: Dreyfus driven by great ambition.  Not interested in details of policy and management.  Difficult to work with as chancellor, although entertaining.  Wanted to be president, chair of FCC, Secretary of Defense.  Almost useless for University.   Didn't want to hurt University.  Lindner, his administrative person, had the power.  Hanson worked for him.  Pushing personnel stuff.  Didn't understand it.  His budgets ok, but fell apart because of deficits.  Didn't give flexibility.  Budgets chaotic. Lindner might have been a help but turned things over to Hanson and Howard (??)

00:22:16	A budget hearing.  Lucey's first budget had a hearing—a disaster, never repeated it.  After that, just gatherings in governor's office.  Dreyfus hearing in conference room.  Desk 18 feet below Lee.

00:24:21	Salary ceiling.  Didn't want anyone to make more than he did.

00:25:54	Board of Regents.  Old boards knew what supposed to do. McPhee's boards.  Renk story.  Good regent.  Now constituency representation.  Earl lapped it up.  Wanted to work for disadvantaged groups.  But people who fit category and might have supported him might not be best regents.  Erdman.

00:31:20	Lobbying.  Most regents didn't go down town.  When they did, you wouldn't necessarily know what they were going to do. Gerrard did.  Steiger would vote for budget, then go downtown and say, too much.  Was a conservative Republican.  Gelatt, never knew where he was.  Legislators diminishing importance of regents.  Respect paid to board is deteriorating.  Regents will vote for collective bargaining because labor people.  McNamara didn't vote for it.  Beckwith spent a lot of time downtown.  Good, blunt, articulate.  Reward: didn't get appointed. Lawton/Gerrard appointments.  Loss of continuity.  Fred's board.  Sensenbrenner.  Good group under Elvehjem.  Good group selected Weaver.  Others.  Lawton.  Smith thinks was too attentive to what Governor and legislators wanted.

00:40:45	Young's criterion.  Is he working for University or for his own career.

00:41:28	Search for academic vice president.  Grover, Lavine, and Hales.  Adamany.  Lucey's influence.  Young's position.  O'Neil brought Kauffman.  

00:48:57	Young's deal with Smith, about leaving.  Why Young left.

00:53:28	Appointment of Shain.  Other possibility was Easterday. Ragotzkie also would have been good.
	
00:55:50	It was when Young was chancellor that he agreed to loaning Madison funds to other institutions.  Discuss fairness of allocations.  Lorenz doing it, an absolutely fair man.  Whitewater in terrible trouble when Ed loaned the money.  Bought goodwill for Madison.

01:01:10	The complaint re allocation is that in a given year, formula is not automatic.  Three-year corridor.

01:03:29  	End of Tape 4. End of Interview. End of Oral History #324

END