UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #88
RIDEOUT, WALTER B.

RIDEOUT, Walter B. (1917-)
Professor of English
At UW: 1962-1986

First Interview
Interviewed: 	1976	
Series: 	TA Strike, 1970
Interviewer: 	Laura Smail
Length: 	2 hours

Background; Early teaching; Women in English; English Department in 1960s; Hiring policies; TA training; Course requirements; TAs in English Department; Mathematics Research Center; TA Strike of 1970; Job market; Funding; Course evaluation; Non-tenured faculty. 
 
Second Interview
Interviewed: 	1978	
Series: 	Humanists at Work
Interviewer: 	Laura Smail
Length: 	1 hour
 
Research on Sherwood Anderson; Teaching; Writing.  

First Interview Session (July 28, 1977): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:09	[begin Tape 1/Side 1] Theory about women in early 1900s who went into elementary and high school teaching because graduate school not really open to them--kept some unusually gifted people from fulfilling potential.  WR mentions some examples of influence, e.g. William Faulkner.  Thinks interesting question to pursue  

00:02:04	Background.  Brought up in Maine.  Went to Colby; to Harvard for graduate work.  In WWII; teaching assistant from 1946-1949.  To Northwestern.  Stayed 1949-1962.  Helen White invited him here; visiting professor here 1962-63. 

00:05:12	Helen White.  Wore herself out as chairman.  Died within day of commencement in 1967.  Thinks it must have been a strain  being so much in minority as woman.  Thinks worth a dissertation, part social psychology, part English.
  
00:08:20	English department's willingness to have women; some of the outstanding women faculty. 

00:10:02	WR became chairman in 1965, succeeding White.  Chairman three years.  

00:10:26	Size of department.  1965-1970 increased from 35-40 to 75. Reasons for increase in enrollment well known.  Includes those who came as an alternative to going to war.  English department had 800 majors in 1969 and now (1976) have 300.  1969 600 graduate students, which is size of small college.  200 TAs in 1968.  185 TAs in 1969.  What was cause and what effect.  Assumption was increase in enrollment.  Rest came as a result.  

00:16:06	Legislature was increasing money available.  Research funds available. 	More undergraduate courses being taught by TAs than by faculty.  Have to have someone to teach the graduate students.  

00:17:14	To attract competent people, permit them to come in their specialty and spare them freshman English.  

00:18:25	Is an understanding that people hired are to teach both undergraduates and graduates.  So assistant professors teaching graduate students much earlier in careers than would have ten years earlier.  

00:19:53	Discussing supervision of TAs.  WR points out that now TAs are beginning to ask for more supervision.  Lacey, Lenehan, Mrs. Thomas, Mrs. Steward particularly trained in teaching freshman English.  Worked out Master TA system--10 experienced TAs acted as formal/informal guides to new TAs. 
 
00:22:57	Describes how he was trained as a TA at Harvard.

00:24:35	Similar system here.  Theme correction sessions part of it.  295   Attitude changes as number of TAs grew.  Feeling among TAs of unlimited future; customary feeling that one knew as much as  or more than older faculty; undergraduates felt they didn't need full year of freshman English.  Increase in enrollment meant that students admitted, at least those from out of state, were top students and probably didn't need freshman English. 

00:30:33	When WR first came a fairly traditional course taught.   Included grammar and rhetoric.  So in early 1968 decided to drop second semester on grounds that were getting better-trained students. 

00:32:33	Pressure to drop requirements in general at the time--language, math.  Push from students.  In 1969 all of freshman English was dropped as requirement 

00:33:35	English 200 replaced.  Originally English 101 and 102, rhetoric and literature.  101 became a course in remedial English. English 200 focused on literature with some writing included, but not a writing course.  Was to be taught almost exclusively by TAs.  Sections would have 15 to 25 students. 

00:34:51	Majority of department committee felt that there should be some overall supervision, control--be responsible for them.  An estimated 30-40% of TAs not teaching course as it was intended to be taught.  TAs using time to argue against Vietnam war.  Feels might have been tempted to do this himself if he was graduate student in sixties.  Faculty sympathized, being opposed to war, but felt if course advertised as a course in literature ought to be so.  No guidance for 200 as there was for 101 and 102. 

00:38:13	By fall of '68 a majority of TAs would not attend staff meetings.  (Tim Henninger chairman then).  

00:40:27	What happened to TAs when freshman English dropped.  When WR first came assistant professors were acting as assistants in big lecture courses.  Was one of difficulties in recruiting faculty.  Now TAs began to assist in lecture courses. 

00:41:59	Much better job to be assisting, for TA, than teaching freshman English.  Time consuming--correcting, discussing themes.

00:44:37	English 200 a literature course with writing attached.  TAs wanted to control course, early fall of 1969.  Document from Henninger discussing a TA proposal for the course.

00:45:28	Department refused to accept demand.  Felt faculty was responsible for courses and that students were not getting as much education as they should be getting--TAs talking about Vietnam, etc.  Should be a comparable amount of work for each section. 

00:50:03	Many TAs saw refusal as an infringement on their freedom to teach.  No way of checking what TAs actually did in their classes from then to strike in March.  WR thinks a large number followed guidelines, were spending more time (and still are) than called for.  Only about 10% bad.  Some bad ones due necessity of getting enough TAs to teach the course. 

00:53:03	Some graduate students had fellowships but most graduate students wanted some experience TAing for records. 

00:53:51	Incident in May 1968 after TAA formed but not yet formally recognized.  A TA with a reasonably good record but turned out to be incompetent in class.  19 of students signed a polite request that this TA be given special training.  People on Freshman English faculty tried to pull him through the semester, but then decided shouldn't be reappointed the following year.  Whereupon the appointment was "grieved."  TAA had no legal status but WR agreed to review the case, consulted Brodie in law school to insure legality.  It was.  WR met with three members of TAA informally.  Didn't want to establish precedence or give reason for claim that TAA had been recognized.  Discovered that this had been the purpose they had wanted the case to be grieved.  Hostile meeting WR's reactions to this incident.  

01:02:32	Muehlenkamp one of WR's students--that is, WR had him in a class.

01:04:14	WR's Radical Novel course attracted many radical students.

01:04:57	WR's views on how Vietnam War should have been protested.

01:05:50	[end tape 1; begin tape 2] WR opposed to AMRC on campus.  Signed anti-war petition in 1965 when most signers were old CP members.  Felt protest measures were anti-productive.

01:10:30	Doesn't think English TAs were overworked.  Were paid more than in other departments because of amount of work in teaching composition.  Department paternalistic, but many of faculty genuinely concerned with TAs' working conditions.  Recently foiled an attempt by graduate school to increase teaching load.  

01:13:43	As department grew, difficult to know how many students you were responsible for.  Large numbers of new assistant professors; 13 in fall of 1966.  A population problem.   New assistant professors resented older generation.  Associate professors might go either way.  Tended to be old-young.  Very damaging.  Various issues.  Younger faculty tended identify with TAs; lifestyles different--long hair vs. tie.  Unionization more acceptable to young.  Older people too genteel in protest against war.  

01:20:27	Nearly half of TAs were involved in strike and many younger faculty sympathized with them. 

01:22:17	On which TAs were meeting courses, Henninger sent out a request to all TAs that they certify whether they wished to be paid in March or not.  If they didn't, assumption was they would strike.  Henninger caught in middle.  As chairman had to try and keep factions together.  Destructive time for him.  Difficult, generally, for young faculty.  

01:26:23	Younger faculty generally supported educational planning issue--that is, TA's demands.  Some quit teaching altogether, spent time being activists.  Frank Battaglia, David Siff.  WR one of minority that voted to give Siff another year but not passed.  

01:30:00	Now in Staten Island Community College.  Describes meeting at which WR had to present arguments against keeping Battaglia.  

01:31:25	WR tried to keep Joel Roach, but lost.  

01:32:12	In earlier years everyone in epartment responsible for all graduate students.  At prelims each student would pick five out of nine areas on which to be examined.  Results poor though students bright.  So during WR's chairmanship reorganized graduate program so now on area system--seven areas.  Each graduate student to concentrate on one are but taking subjects in adjacent areas. Helped prepare to teach. 

01:37:00	Beginning to think again of changing requirements. Helped break up department into smaller groups and allow students to get to know faculty better and vice versa.  Also brought tenured and non-tenured faculty together more. 

01:38:46	Students now see it as a rigid system.

01:41:17	Some events of the strike.  WR's classes.  Treated all students the same whether they were picketing or not.

01:45:47	WR's views of teaching; opposition to faculty union.  The protected, privileged life of college faculty. 

01:50:47	In the long run strike didn't accomplish much; bad effect on campus.  English department TAs felt well-treated, were striking against other departments.  Thinks departments who misuse TAs making a breach of professional obligation. 

01:53:20	TAs have not made a distinction among departments. 

01:54:58	Doesn't recall any grievances acted on following strike.

01:56:42	WR was on executive council of MLA and thus involved in sudden collapse of job market.  A completed Ph.D. definitely a help in getting a job. 

01:58:07	Number of graduate students has dropped due increase in tuition and due to deteriorating job market--250 now, including those not on campus but finishing dissertations. 

01:59:11	Generation gap between old and young faculty largely gone.

02:00:18	Questions in department about what is appropriate program for modern conditions. Predicted enrollment drop didn't occur. Comments on legislature's dropping growth fund when UW still growing. 

02:04:04	Undergraduate teaching still required of all faculty.  English department doesn't get the kind of money that allows professors to organize big research projects and drop teaching. 

02:06:47	Course evaluation program.  Computer results.  A bad teacher shows up. 

02:08:26	Chairman makes use of this in deciding raises.  Decisions based considerable amount on research but healthy amount on teaching. 

02:09:50	How non-tenured faculty are assessed.  Three visits to class.  Two formal reports, a copy going to individual.  Reports go to chairman and to area. 

02:11:43	End of First Interview Session

End of First Interview

SECOND INTERVIEW
Wisconsin Humanities Committee Grant Interview

First Interview Session (November 8, 1978): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:12	[begin Tape 2/Side 1] Asked to talk about his research, WR commented that 1) researchers can pass on cutting edge knowledge to classes and 2) published research is teaching in itself, an extension of classroom teacher to a wider audience.

00:03:05	WR explained why he chose to research Sherwood Anderson—while still teaching at Northwestern, he was asked to transcribe Anderson’s letters at Newberry Library, and having learned much about him, thought he could write his biography.

00:04:46	WR talked about deciding to write a critical biography that was stronger than the 2 that had been published in the 1950s.

00:05:02	WR discussed Anderson’s waning recognition in contemporary society, noting that his best work was in the 1920s, when he helped develop a new kind of “accurate” short story in reaction to the unrealistic “poisoned-plot”—a story properly told followed the realistic contours of the event without an authorial-imposed form.

00:07:15	LS and WR discussed Anderson’s background as a businessman not an intellectual, and his ensuing ambiguity toward intellectuals—who had better training than he, but he felt lacked spontaneity and intuition. 

00:08:36	WR cited the example of Anderson’s treatment of sexuality to show his concern that his contemporaries weren’t representing the power of experience in life.

00:09:17	WR continued to discuss Anderson’s importance because his new kind of “shocking” short story seemed more honest after WWI and was fresh for readers; he became one of America’s best known writers in the 1920s, best known for Winesburg OH.

00:10:16	WR talked about how some of Anderson’s work is “superb” and some “awful,” citing the variability of quality within Horses and Men. 

00:11:23	8 novels by S. Anderson:  Poor White, about the disruptiveness of industrialism and the “invisible roof” in a small OH town.

00:12:21	WR explained the apocryphal story of how Anderson faked a mild nervous break- down to escape life in business. Rather, Anderson had been a mail-order advertising businessman who felt ashamed of misusing language, was uncomfortable under family pressures and debt, and used writing as a way of objectifying his trouble. He talked about how Anderson did indeed have a breakdown, supported by his “amnesia letter,” but returned to his advertising business for 10 years thereafter until, in 1922, he was able to manage a meager income from writing alone.

00:17:18	WR discussed Anderson’s self-constructed image of himself as the artist who heroically turns his back on business developed in The Storyteller’s Story (his undependable autobiography). This culture hero image and his charisma contributed to his reputation in the 1920s that waned in the 1930s.

00:18:51	How Anderson’s reputation is kept up now—by critics, scholars, and underground interest in his work by people who feel he understood their lives.

00:19:46	LS and WR talked about Anderson’s appeal to the everyman, discussing his life story as a day-dreamer and a hard-working “Jobby.” WR related anecdotes about his factory experience, which helped him relate to everyday people not out of social protest, but by emphasizing the role of imagination/inner life for normal people.

00:23:24	WR related his progress on the biography of Anderson, which he felt would take as long to write as it took Anderson to live. It was slowed down by his teaching, only progressing when he obtained a Guggenheim Fellowship or had vacation time.

00:24:42	WR explained the progress of his research, from Anderson’s letters at Newberry Library and interviewing Anderson’s familiars. He remembered meeting 3 of his 4 wives, observing how remarkable a person his first wife was—while painful for her, she realized that Anderson had to develop in his own way. He also recounted his frustration at not being able to talk frankly with her about Anderson.

00:28:23	WR discussed Anderson’s second wife Tennessee Mitchell, who died in 1929.

00:29:28	Anderson’s third wife Elizabeth Prall, who later went to Mexico with William Spratly to revive its silver industry; and fourth wife who kept up the family property.

00:31:28	Anderson’s passion for winning at croquet.

00:31:45	WR opines that he is lucky he never met Anderson, who would have filled his head with inaccuracies.

00:32:12	Anderson was a story-teller, and so was unconcerned with scholarly accuracy or true facts. This led WR to have to do detective work, which was part of the fun of research for him. He cited examples of bits of evidence that spoke to Anderson’s life story and ideas about things like race relations, etc.

00:37:01	WR explained teaching the course “Anderson, Hemingway and Faulkner.” Discussed why he structured the course this way and the influence Anderson had on Hemingway, Faulkner, and Steinbeck.

00:39:41	WR related why he taught the course on novels; while he enjoyed poetry he felt most at home in fiction. He emphasized listening to the “two voices:” the actual words and the unstated relationships that underwrite the words.

00:42:06	WR continued to relate why he taught the novels course, in order to make students more aware and enriched in their inner lives. He reflected on whether his course has ever damaged someone’s life.

00:44:16	Managing homelife and his relationship with his wife, a professor in the Library School.

00:46:15	Committee work.

00:47:14	End of First Interview Session

End of Second Interview

End of Oral History #88

000	Discussing the importance of faculty research and the autobiography of Sherwood Anderson. Howard Mumford Jones--raised in La Crosse, B.A. from UW. 

127	WR and LS decide on approach.

150	[maybe 00:12:21 but maybe edited out] Sherwood Anderson's life--businessman.

188	[00:14:24] Writing as self-therapy.

193	[00:15:04] Nervous breakdown. 

200	[00:15:55] Decided to become a writer.

214	Winesburg, Ohio brought him fame. 

220	[00:05:02] Best stories in 1920s.  Very influential.

238	[00:09:17] New kind of short story--influenced Hemingway and Faulkner. 

251	[00:10:16] Some superb, some bad.

265	[00:07:15] Self-taught.  Not as good a writer as Faulkner, but writer of consequence.

270	[00:03:05] H.M. Jones, in 1951, asked to edit Anderson's letters.  WR teaching at Northwestern, letters in Newberry Library.  He agreed (had been Jones' graduate student at Harvard).

299	[00:03:47] Anderson's handwriting terrible.

307	[00:04:46] WR decided write critical biography.  Were two but neither full-scale.  

316	Hasn't worked steadily.  Wrote Radical Novel in America, edited textbooks. 

328	On committees, chairman English department for a time. 

340	00:32:12 Anderson was a story teller, marvelous.  Not dependable in a scholarly sense.  Invented episodes to make stories funnier.

366	Two books of memoirs.  Fact and fancy mixed.

403	Second one, Memoirs, did try to tell truth.  Memory not reliable.  Biographer has to find out what is true, what invention. 

431	[00:21:27?] Example of story about warehouse job and night school.

493	What WR found out were facts of matter. 

549	[00:25:17] WR has met three of his four wives.  Good taste in wives.  Not a family man, self-centered.  Charming, handsome.  Had many relationships with women, but brief ones.

619	WR got in touch with man who had grown up with Anderson.  Had four talks with him. 

676	[00:17:18] Remembered Anderson as mixture of young man on the go, and dreamer.  Like George Willard in Winesburg, Ohio.

745	[00:13:04] Anderson had a gift for writing mail order advertising. 

870	[00:24:42] Letters are very important.  Document day to day events.  Anderson slanted his letters according to whom he was writing to.  An example.  Conscious of uses of words.  Could con people with them. 

Tape 2/Side 2  

001	But also wanted to use words carefully.  Write accurately about life.  Not follow formulas.

031	WR has had support from graduate school in form of semesters off.  Also was awarded Harry Hayden Clark professorship. 

053	Wasn't ruthless enough.  Had many graduate students.  Time consuming training them in research techniques and process of writing up research.  Didn't want to tell them to go to someone else.

081	[00:24:42] Has finished research and interviewed most of people available.  Corresponded with others.  Been through all the letters in Newberry Library.

100	Takes notes on them.  Were 4,000, now 8,000.

111	Anderson born 1876.  WR not at 1921 in his life.  Two thirds of way through.  On chapter 10.  600 of about 1,000 pages.

137	Two difficulties.  Anderson unreliable, have to check on whatever he says.  Scholarship on Anderson not done carefully.  Has to be checked up on.  

147	[00:23:24] WR a slow worker.  Longer to write Anderson's life than for Anderson to live it.  Trying to work his writing and his life in together.  [00:32:12] Can tell quite a lot about a person's life by what he writes, but have to be careful not to exaggerate the link.    Story "I Want to Know Why" reflects Anderson's disillusionment.  A black cook who doesn't lie.  Written at time of Chicago race riots, 1919.  Anderson's way of saying he sympathizes with and trusts black people. 

239	Why do you write?  As student, knew would be expected.  Also likes to ferret out facts, make sure they are right. 

277	Do you see it as equally important to teaching, or more, or less?  It fits in, contributes to teaching.  Uses as an example of what it takes to be a good reader.  Have to get beyond the text. 

314	[00:39:41] Listen to two voices. 

338	[00:37:01] In teaching a novel, get what is really being said.

345	Quotes a friend who is county supervisor.  Learned from literature that words persuade people.  Just as an author sets up a scene in a particular way for particular purposes, so does a politician.  Important to discover reason.  

378	A writer mirrors society.  Examples from Shakespeare,  attitudes to kings, to ambitious people.  

407	Literature pure pleasure, but also a way of understanding problems. 

428	[00:00:12] Matter of time is always difficult.  How much to spend on teaching, on research, on committee work, on family.  Unsolvable.  Otherwise no conflict between teaching and research.  The best teachers do research.  Publish or stagnate.  The person who just teaches is accepting other people's ideas.  Research is a mode of teaching.  WR expects to add to knowledge of 20th century literature by his biography of Anderson.

483	Doesn't have a writer's block.  Does get depressed sometimes.  Time an enemy.  Trying to write accurately.  Sometimes fears he is inventing.  Writing a biography is a form of fiction.  Have a few facts and have to make the whole cloth.  Like building a pot out of six fragments. 

538	Has done some creative writing but doesn't regard self as a failed novelist.

END