UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #298
CIPLIJAUSKAITE, BIRUTE

CIPLIJAUSKAITE, Birute (1929- )
Professor of Spanish
At UW: 1960-1997

Frist Interview: 1984	
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length: 1 hour and 50 minutes

Research and writing on Spanish literature and poetry; Teaching; Spanish Department; Translation work; Writing on fictional women; Method of writing; Background; Favorite books.  

Second Interview: December 27, 2012 
Interviewer: John Tortorice 
Length: 1 hour and 40 minutes 

Third Interview: February 6, 2013 
Interviewer: John Tortorice 
Length: 40 minutes 

First Interview Session (December 6, 2008): Digital File

Time 		Keywords

00:00:01	Start of Tape 1, Side 1. Her first book.  Went to graduate school mainly to write dissertation.  Wanted to work on her own book, solitude in Spanish poetry.  Ph.D. from Bryn Mawr, no undergraduate in Spanish.  Spoke Lithuanian, German, French and English before Spanish.  Speaks of Spanish literature and poetry.

00:05:15	Interested in literary work as art work, on her subject, solitude.  Many differences in expression of poets regarding solitude.  Her second book is The Idea of Poetry, Poetics of the Twentieth Century.  Her ideas and work habits.  Feels writing is relatively simple.

00:08:24	Writes with much intensity, but never really satisfied with what she does.

00:10:00	What poets thought about poetry, through their poems and critical writings.  What they thought does not necessarily come through in their work.  Their letters are most helpful documents.

00:11:29	Worked on subject because there wasn't much on it.  Wrote both books in Spain.  Doesn't think she would do it again today.  Put together ideas for others to think about, but today she thinks that is naive.

00:14:45	Books were done in early 1960s, but poetry has never really attracted as much attention as other themes.

00:16:07	She knew what poems she wanted to do, and dealt with many poets, not just one.

00:18:10	Never liked to read poetry.  But BC went to Spain when young, heard a poetry reading, and decided to pursue study.  Acquired Spanish in one month and listened to more poetry.

00:19:49	Her second book had impact in Spain.  Academic people knew book.  Took her two and a half years to write that book, while she was teaching here.

00:22:08	After that book, she went back to a 17th century poet, Gongora.  Considered greatest poet of Spain, also the most difficult.  She did all her work in Spanish, and worked only on the sonnets.

00:23:25	Speaks of writing and editing her books.  Details involved, and the editions.

00:25:48	Speaks more of Gongora; his different styles at different times.  Feels he is a cold poet, with beautiful poetry but nothing behind it.

00:27:15	Other poets, comparisons of works, and personalities. 

00:28:07	End of Tape 1, Side 1.

00:28:10	More on poets.  She considers Gongora greatest poet of Spain.  Feels he is perfect poet.  More on Gongora.

00:30:50	She sometimes brings in poets of other nationalities.  Reading in context.  More on Gongora and the work she did on him.  BC considers those years lost years of her life; there was so much work.

00:32:51	Work on manuscripts, mistakes she made.  Doesn't do lectures on Gongora; once she's finished, she's finished.  Feels she's done what she could, some of his work not edited.  Spain has not done enough work.  Spanish scholars too superficial.

00:36:58	BC went into prose after Gongora.  Most ideas now come from teaching.  Critics must keep distance from work they are critiquing.

00:38:20	Her approach to graduate work.  How she analyzed poets, their work.

00:40:13	More on her work.  All the material she had to review, the hours she put in.  One of her discoveries on an author/poet, Baroja.  Discovered many more manuscripts than she had thought were in existence.  Made more discoveries regarding Baroja's work when she stopped in Madrid on the way back to Madison.

00:43:05	Decided only to review his historical novels due to voluminous amounts of his material.  Very little written on historical novels.

00:44:54	BC's books getting smaller.  Feels she will soon stop writing.  Likes to read more than write books.

00:46:28	Publisher did not distribute her book (Baroja) very well.  Feels more people would have read it had it been better distributed.  More impact.  BC always writes in Spanish, has only written ten articles in English.  She thinks having them translated would be difficult. 

00:55:44	End of Tape 1, Side 2.

00:00:07	Start of Tape 2, Side 1. BC feels cheated by amount of time she spends teaching.  Has no connection with the research she is doing.  Only doing writing during holidays, but until last summer, 1983, had no holidays.  Not good for research, or her health.  In her time off, went to Spain, because she really shouldn't live for work.  Department hasn't been very generous as far as time goes.  Really doesn't have choice of courses she wants.

00:03:43	BC really dislikes teaching language.  Teaches one per year.  Doesn't feel she is a good language teacher, not enough interest or imagination.  Had more opportunities, greater variety of courses when department was bigger.

00:06:15	New work on contemporary feminine novel. Has published new book on unfulfilled women, or adulteresses.  This book bigger hit.  Written in Spanish, but not only from Spanish literature.  Book gave her great satisfaction.  Her favorite thing is the cover, which is very beautiful.

00:09:32	This book very fun to do.  Came up when she had to lecture at European universities.  Lectures were big success--from this came enough material to write a book.

00:10:55	Doesn’t remember idea for book. Not so much adultery for the theme, as the quality of the whole novel.  Showing in the novel, how adultery is different in four different countries because the role of women is different.  Very difficult to research; done in France, Germany, Russia and Spain.  Madame Bovary and Anna Karenina two of the women characters studied.

00:14:36	Needed hard facts and laws from different countries at these times.  Discovered many amazing things in the course of her research as to why women weren't liberated.  BC does not consider herself a feminist.  

00:15:25	BC believes Schopenhauer very influential philosopher on all novelists from those countries, especially his views on women.

00:16:20	Speaks of women writers in Spain trying to write like men, from men's point of view.

00:18:13	Likes historical novels written today by women, showing different side of what is commonly known.  Speaks of different aspects of writing, different styles.

00:20:14	Teaching and research.  Research adds to teaching, more to do after getting Ph.D.  Lately she has been translating poetry and other works in French, English, Spanish, Lithuanian.

00:22:50	Feels she does best translating into Lithuanian, her native tongue.  Has done a lot in Spanish too.  Quite a bit of tension in research, more soothing when translating with poetry.

00:23:57	BC writes very fast, one draft, few corrections.  Writes mostly at home when classes are done, needs a lot of time, so it's done at holidays.

00:25:40	Doesn't apply for grants, hates filling out all the forms.  And, it's difficult to take semester off without pay.  Teaching interferes with writing.  She hasn't had semester off in the last ten years.

00:27:43	Has written less since she joined research institute, due to lack of time and money.

00:28:25	End of Tape 2, Side 1.

00:28:26	(Count begins with voice) Women teachers more conscientious about their teaching, work much harder at it.

00:30:15	Her early years.  Would have been a physician if things had gone smoothly.  But had an inclination to language from early childhood.  A story she was told about herself.  Has always read.

00:33:05	Wasn't a particularly good student until last years of high school.  Studied French.  Had a job as a secretary in Canada.  One summer went to France, then to Spain.  Was smitten.  Back in Canada went to night school.  The chance by which she got to Bryn Mawr with a fellowship.  Her scholarship began there, her serious study. 

00:37:40	After finishing her dissertation, applied to six colleges for jobs.  Was offered a job here.  There was one great professor here--Sanchez-Barbudo.  Was a good department in the 1960s.  Fell apart at end of 1960s, due the TA strike.  Many of the young, good people left. 

00:40:37	What a university should be--learning how to think.  The focus on grades here.  The difference in the quality of students between 1960s and now.  Now they're here to get jobs.  True everywhere.  German students much worse.  Students here come unprepared but have good will.  German students opposed to any authority.  Spanish students come here because they get better training than in Spain.  

00:46:38	The difficulty of keeping up with the literature, much of it trash.

00:47:31	Has had outside offers every year but two since she's been here.  The interesting ones came when she'd just received some award or was on leave; felt would be ungrateful to accept.  Never used offers to get a salary raise.  Once went to see what were the salaries of other Bascom professors.  The contrast.  

00:52:12	She hopes she hasn't reached her peak (response to a question on the list). Favorite books, her first for her daring, all of her is in that book; the last for its beautiful cover.

00:54:10	End of Tape 2, Side 2. End of First Interview Session.

Second Interview Session (December 27, 2012): Digital File

Time 		Keywords

00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:38 	Question: Where and when were you born? Answer: Born in Kaunas, Lithuania in 1929

00:00:50 	Question: Family background? Answer: Both parents born on a farm, fled to Russia during German occupation of World War I. Met when they returned to Lithuania after the war. Father was famous gynecologist and good administrator, moved to establish a hospital in a different part of Lithuania in 1933. 1933-1939 were mentioned as “best years of my life.” Close community in Lithuania, good high school, good music. 

00:03:27	[No question.] BC discusses German occupation starting in 1939 and how it led to family relocation and interruptions in high school education. Finished high school in Germany after family had fled Lithuania.

00:04:48	Interviewer asks follow up questions about the German and Soviet invasion of Lithuania and the flight of BC’s family. Soviets had identified BC’s family for deportation to Siberia, but the family was living in Vilnius because of her father’s job. 

00:06:35	Question: Why Germany? Answer: No connections in Germany. Father died of a heart attack before leaving Lithuania, leaving BC’s mother to care for three small daughters in foreign country. Discusses gratitude and admiration for her mother. 

00:08:43	Question: Middle class Lithuanian life between world wars? Answer: Discussed freedom and organizing taking place in Baltic countries during this time. Mentioned hired help of family, a cook and a maid, and names of two sisters. 

00:10:58	Question: What was Germany like during the war? Answer: First went to mother’s parents’ farm close to German border. Then relocated to German-controlled Czechoslovakia (Sudetenland), where her family was put to work. BC was only around 12 but was forced to work in an ammunition factory so was not in school at that time. BC mentions that she doesn’t remember many bad things about this time. 

00:15:20 	[No question.] As war was ending, BC’s family moved further west (Tübingen?) to meet relatives, where “a more normal life started.” BC discussed difficulty of living with occupation forces in French occupation zone and how BC’s mother dealt with economic troubles during that time. Finished high school with other Lithuanian refugees living in Germany. BC discusses differences the American, French, and British occupation zones after the war. 

00:21:16	[No question.] At the end of the war, the universities opened and admitted a quota of refugee students. BC’s university admitted 40 students and only 7 remained after the first year. Very difficult and strict school. 

00:23:24	[No question.] BC discusses emigration from Germany to Canada and contract to work as a maid. 

00:24:23	Resuming after interruption by phone. Question: Final words about experience in Germany? Answer: Emphasizes impact this time had on her education and confidence in ability and the many good people her family met there. 

00:26:29	Question: How did you end up in Canada? Answer: Contacts offered refugees opportunities to go to the United States, Canada, or South America in exchange for one year of work as a maid. Friends of BC’s family had gone to Canada previously and seemed happy. Younger sister and mother went to US—first west coast, then Chicago.

00:28:43 	Question: Experiences during domestic work in the US? Answer: Family she was placed with allowed her to play the piano during her two hours of free time a day. BC discussed her interest in music as a child. Then discussed her typing class at a business school twice a week in the afternoon, which led to work as a secretary in after her year-long maid contract ended.

00:30:48 	Question: How long did you work as a secretary? Answer: BC explained that she worked as a secretary the rest of the time she was in Canada, attending evening classes to get her MA from the University of Montreal.

00:31:37	Question: What was your MA in? Answer: Spanish. BC explains that her MA took quite a few years because she was taking one course at a time but saved enough money while working to take a summer course in Spain (maybe in 1953). This course, and the instructor, made it clear to her that she wanted to study Spanish poetry.

00:33:30	Question: Spain in 1953? Answer: Travelled quite a bit, but wasn’t interested in the politics and the oppression. Experienced traditional Spain before influx of tourists. BC’s school was in Northern Spain in the Pyrenees, where there were very few tourists. This experience inspired her to register as a full time student after returning to Montreal, though she continued to take only night classes and work during the day. 

00:35:50	Question: Why did you decide to pursue a doctorate? Answer: Met student in Spain who had attended Bryn Mawr College and who encouraged BC to apply for a fellowship. She was able to complete the requirement for her degree in two years. BC discusses one very strict and critical professor she worked with at Bryn Mawr but said she was grateful for this criticism while writing her dissertation.

00:39:14	Question: Final thoughts about time at Bryn Mawr? Answer: BC discusses that, despite the short time she was there and the amount of work she had, she went to the Philadelphia Symphony every Friday, which helped her survive the stress. 

00:40:20	Brief comments about being a woman in academia, including the story of her interview at UW-Madison and why she decided to apply for the job in Madison. 

00:41:43	Question: Dynamic caused by male professors at an all-women’s school? Answer: BC was very happy at Bryn Mawr because the professors “looked for your intelligence, not for you gender.” 

00:42:33	Question: What was the Spanish / Portuguese department like in the early 60s? The university? Answer: In those years, the Spanish / Portuguese department shared the number one title with Harvard. BC attributes its stature to the faculty the department had at the time, including the Modernist Antonio Sanchez-Barbudo, and strong coverage in Medieval and Golden Age, which were considered the best in the country. BC mentioned Ed Kasten (Lloyd Kasten) who specialized in editing old texts and who trained students very well, and Mack Singleton in the Golden Age. BC also discusses success of students from this time.

00:47:21	Question: How were you received in the department? Answer: “I have no comment about that.” BC continues to talk about the Spanish / Portuguese department in the 1960s, specifically the excellent visiting scholars program. 

00:48:22	Question: Mentor? Specifically for the tenure process? Answer: No. There was no process—just a decision by the administration / executive committee. 

00:49:25	Question: Publications at that point? Answer: “I was published quite a bit.” Conversation about BC’s first book, which was her dissertation and published in Spain. Published book every couple years after the first and “quite a number of articles.”

00:51:38 	Question: Final thoughts about Madison during these years? Answer: BC comments on how there was more cross department communication because the university was smaller and the benefits of the visiting scholars program.

00:53:12 	Interviewer summarizes BC’s path in the Spanish department. Question: What was the atmosphere like for you as a woman in this department? Answer: There was no animosity. There may have been a slight dismissal or lack of opportunity, but that was the case everywhere at that time. BC never used offers from other universities to get a better position in the department or salary increase because she knew she was not going to take the offer. Was more interested in research than money or department politics. BC mentioned the strength of UW’s libraries and quality of students for reasons she chose to stay despite better offers. 

00:58:57	Question: Location of department during this time? Answer: Bascom Hall. Less space and not as comfortable, “but it had tradition.” Moved to Van Hise in 1968, which BC did not like. However, she does not think the move changed the feeling of the department. 

01:00:20 	Question: Courses taught in those years? Answer: Taught language course when she had to, but preferred teaching literature and culture courses. There was a requirement of the department to teach some language courses. Enjoyed teaching even though she wouldn’t say she had a passion for it. There were always a few students that made teaching worth it. 

01:03:11	Question: Scholarship? Answer: Main interest was Spanish poetry, but she says her teaching also influenced her research interests and writing. Her most quoted / well known work is an edition of a great classic—Gongora, which she did because a previous professor encouraged her to not only focus on contemporary poetry. BC talks about the process of visiting all the Gongora manuscripts to create critical edition. 

01:06:51	[No question.] BC recalls one negative experience she had because of her gender. One monastery in Spain would not let her in to view a manuscript. 

01:07:21 	Question: Mechanics of research during these years? Answer: BC discusses the experience of physically traveling to the manuscripts and the benefits of seeing the original text. She had considered having someone look at the poems she needed for her, but another scholar recommended she go visit herself. Had limited research funds for travel. 

01:10:21 	Question: What attracted you to Gongora? Answer: Suggestion of mentor, who provided some references.

01:11:09 	[Interview resumes after short break.] Interviewer & BC discuss publication of the Gongora edition, which was published by the Hispanic Seminary of Medieval Studies. BC had no contract for this book—was just interested in this research. Around this time, she was appointed a member of the Institute for Research in the Humanities, and the director of the institute, Robert Kingdon, suggested the Hispanic Seminary of Medieval Studies and convinced them to publish. 

01:15:02	Interviewer and BC discuss other publications. 

01:17:20	Question: Why you started working on women’s literature? Or women in literature? Answer: At that point (early 1980s), no one was writing about Spanish women writers, even though they were recognized. BC was impressed by the quality of the women writers and frustrated that men who were less talented were discussed more. She also discusses her own experiences as a woman: “in order to be treated as equal, you had to be better, otherwise they weren’t interested.” 

01:20:36	Question: In terms of critical writing, were there any themes or discoveries? Answer: BC says she wouldn’t call herself a pioneer, but she brought attention to writers who were not being discussed and let the readers decide. 

01:21:18	Question: Translations of Maria Victoria Atencia? Answer: In BC’s opinion, she is the greatest female poet in Spain. Translated her work into Lithuanian, but no critical edition because there is no interest in a critical edition of a relatively unknown poet. However, BC has written about Atencia in Spanish. 

01:23:34	Question: Literary theory? Feminist theory? Answer: Not considered in BC’s writing. “I want to speak about literature and not about politics.”
 
01:25:31	Question: Final thoughts about your work on women in Spanish literature? Answer: “No, just that is has been very interesting and very satisfactory.”

01:28:14 	Question: Moved to translations of Spanish literature to Lithuanian. Did you also translate Lithuanian literature into Spanish? English? Answer: One or two poems, maybe. Into Spanish. Follow up: What languages are you comfortable with? 

01:31: 12	Question: Institute for Research in the Humanities? Answer: Appointed in 1973. Described IRH as “heaven.” There were always a wide range of visiting scholars. BC discussed idea sharing over lunches and the ability of the scholars to make their research interesting to those outside of their discipline. Follow up: Names? Answer: Edward Wilson and Roy Jones from England. Follow up: UW faculty? Answer: Robert Kingdon and David Cronon, who ensured that many disciplines were represented, both were directors of the institute. BC attributed the soul, success, and beauty of the institute to Loretta Freiling, the Executive Secretary. Also mentioned Madeleine Doran, English department, and Elaine Marks, French department, saying it was important that there were women from the very beginning. 

01:38:36	Question: Final thoughts? Answer: Such a happy community with so many fields represented. 

01:39:28	End of Second Interview Session. 

Third Interview Session (February 6, 2013): Digital File

Time 		Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:50 	Question: Work with significant Spanish poets and writers? Maria Victoria Atencia? Answer: BC doesn’t remember first contact. Met her after she had already been studying her work. Atencia’s husband was also a poet, possibly had connections there. Wasn’t until the 1990s until she was really recognized. 

00:04:32 	Question: What about her poetry had such an impact on you? Answer: No empty   words. Each word sits in the right place. Also good combination of heart and mind. 

00:05:45	Question: Did you writing have an impact on her success? Answer: Atencia attributes her success to BC—BC believes this to be an exaggeration. 

00:06:30	Question: Other similar poets? Answer: BC is in contact with other female Spanish poets, but they do not act as a group of women poets. They are just good poets. BC thinks that some poets from southern Spain began sending her their work after she began writing about Atencia. BC discusses the treatment of female poets in Spanish—not recognized, considered second rate. So she felt it was important to being attention to them.

00:09:40	Question: Themes / connections across the women writers you have studied from different countries? Answer: Have been ignored in their countries, but are not belligerent.

00:11:20	Question: Special collections material. Manuscript of book about poet Jorge Guillen? Answer: Not book about him—collection of his correspondence with his first wife. BC worked on this for 8 years. Transcribed and annotated, but not translated (correspondence in French & Spanish). Guillen’s son wanted to book published as a work of Guillen with no credit to BC, which is why this manuscript was never published. BC calls this “the greatest disappointment of her life.”

00:17:21	Question: Renee Lang collection? Answer: Professor of French literature from Marquette. Great correspondence with French authors and former students. Discusses Natalie Barney manuscript, which was never published because of a falling out between Lang and Barney.

00:19:59	Question: Students? Answer: “Every student has so much hidden power. You just have to awaken it.” BC talks about student evaluations that called her impossible and her courses difficult but the students were grateful for the challenge. Mentions a former student who is now chair of the University of Pennsylvania’s Spanish department and writes extraordinary books. BC says these students make teaching worth it. 
00:24:31	[No question] BC talks about the joy of seeing her students read poetry, which is more challenging than prose because it is more condensed and more is implied. Very good poetry “makes you think through feeling.”
00:26:15	Question: Honors and awards? Answer: Greatest honor was the metal from the King of Spain, which took her totally by surprise. 
00:28:04 	Question: Thoughts on post-Stalin Lithuania? Answer: Outstanding singers from Lithuania. More free from oppression because they sing established operas. BC allow follows literature, which astounds her with the use and manipulation of language, but the stories aren’t interesting. BC hopes the exposure to more world literature will improve this. 
00:30:59 	Question: Family still in Lithuania? Answer: Yes, still has family. Also, her students still go.
00:31:57	Question: Fund to honor father? Answer: Yes. BC’s father was a gynecologist who founded a school for gynecological nurses, which is still open. BC founded an award for the best student at that school. She also established an award at the conservatory for the winner of a contest—usually a pianist. 
00:33:24	Question: Ongoing restitution? Answer: Complex. She discusses how this shows the results of the Russian occupation, particularly corruption. 
00:35:43	Question: Trips to Puerto Rico? Answer: First went to visit friends—German painters who had fled Nazi Germany. She always travelled to Puerto Rico after Christmas for a week.
00:39:35	Question: Final thoughts? 
00:39:50 	End of Third Interview Session. 

End of Oral History #298