UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #3
ASPINWALL, WILLIAM H.

ASPINWALL, William H. (1906-1983)
Undergraduate Student; Assistant to Director of Athletic Department; Secretary of Athletic Board
At UW: [as undergraduate] 1924-1929; [in Athletic Dept] 1929-1972

Interviewed: 	1976 (4 sessions)
Interviewer: 	Donna Taylor
Indexed by:	Steven Beck
Length: 	6 hours, 10 minutes
 
Background and education; Purchase of Camp Randall; Changes to stadium, 1920-67; Fieldhouse; Quonset practice building; Natatorium; Nielsen Tennis Stadium; Changes in playing fields; Safety of artificial grass; Seating of UW presidents in stadium; Arrangements for Rose Bowl games; Other away games; Early Lower Campus activities; Sports during Depression; Awards; Boxing program and its elimination; Individual sports and their coaches; Black athletes; Financing athletics; Title IX and women's athletics; Faculty control of Athletic Board; Filling director and coaching vacancies; Resignations of Walter Meanwell and C. W. Spears; Athletic directors; Football and its coaches; Fraudulent use of athletic tickets; Athletic staff size; Athletics and news media.

First Interview Session (February 16, 1976): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview [begin Tape 1/Side 1]

00:00:06	William Aspinwall's background.  Born in Hurley, Wisconsin; comes to University in 1924 as undergraduate; works for athletic department, summer of 1925; continues to do so throughout schooling; upon graduation WA works in administration; in 1929 begins work as first accountant attached to athletic department, under George W. Levis, athletic manager, and George E. Little, athletic director.  

00:04:03	In 1931, athletic board asks WA to act as secretary.  Serves on board until retirement in 1972. 
 
00:05:05	Senator William S. Vilas purchases Camp Randall grounds for University in 1911; football stands moved from northern end of grounds to their present location in 1917.  Seating additions are added periodically. 

00:07:36	Athletic department, after legislature fails to appropriate funds for building of an athletic complex, builds fieldhouse, dedicated in December 1930 at basketball game against University of Pennsylvania.  Serves as a basketball and track facility.  

00:09:40	In 1936, second balcony is added to fieldhouse, paid for by athletic department and federal funds.  

00:11:25	Practice building, immediately east of fieldhouse, is designed and built as a quonset hut, dedicated in 1956.  

00:12:24	Later, Natatorium, is built by athletic department on western end of campus, with state recreation department adding Unit 1 gymnasium to swimming facility seven years after.  

00:14:24	Following its construction, athletic department moves fencing team into facility.  

00:15:00	Red Gym Armory built in 1898 for under $100,000.  University basketball team plays there for a number of years.  

00:17:12	In 1912, Annex is built adjacent to Gym.  Torn down years later--Wisconsin Center and Alumni House now stand there.

00:18:21	Students gathered in Annex to follow football games played away on a grid-graph--a large screen on which a light is moved depicting location of football on field; moves are coordinated to messages relayed over Western Union telegraph lines.

00:20:21	In 1958, athletic department lowers football field ten feet, removes track circling field to put in more seating.  Later, second deck is added to stadium on its western side--favored over eastern side because of construction costs. 

00:25:25	A.C. Nielsen's father, captain of tennis team, offers University $2 million to build indoor tennis stadium. University builds Nielsen Tennis Stadium.  

00:30:36	Original varsity tennis courts located near corner of Breese Terrace and University Ave.  

00:31:00	University planned to locate entire University athletic complex, both competitive and intramural, on Camp Randall grounds.  Tentative plans showed Memorial Arch being incorporated in and used as fieldhouse entrance.  Hoped to purchase triangle formed by Regent, Monroe, and Randall Streets immediately south of Camp Randall grounds to add more land to proposed athletic area. [end side 1; begin Tape 1/Side 2]

00:33:52	After plan is found not feasible, University explores possibility of locating entire athletic complex immediately north and west of Stock Pavilion.  Athletic department permitted to locate its outdoor track on far western end of College of Agriculture's land, once used by University as a dump.  Department moves baseball field from Camp Randall area to same area, named it Guy Lowman Field. 

00:37:04	Recently, baseball field moved further west, immediately adjacent to marsh.  

00:37:20	Regents take $75,000 from athletic fund to build Adams Hall dorm complex.  Promise to give athletic department special concern in return.  

00:40:32	Athletic Director George E. Little plays prominent role in developing intramural playing fields immediately to north and west of Stock Pavilion.  

00:43:29	When Fieldhouse is built in twenties, a skylight is built into roof.  Because it was improperly built into roof, lets in moisture continually--removed in early seventies.  

00:44:41	University hosted state high school boys' basketball tournaments in Red Gym.  

00:47:04	In early seventies, University renovates fieldhouse in order to provide additional locker rooms and door openings (to host larger capacity audiences), and improving the seats and lighting. 

00:55:26	Athletic department turns Memorial Shell, or Practice Building, over to recreation department.  They install new locker rooms, hard floor, and hockey rink in facility. 

00:59:20	Camp Randall Memorial building originally built as an indoor track, baseball, and football facility.  Clay floor must be refurbished continually. 

01:03:32	Each time football field in stadium is re-sodded, it costs athletic department $6,000.  First artificial grass carpet installed in stadium turns black, had to be replaced. [begin Tape 2/Side 1]

01:07:23	When artificial playing field is installed, University athletic department conducted study to see if more injuries occur on artificial surfaces; finds nothing to support this. 

01:11:25	When Notre Dame plays Wisconsin in 1928, Wisconsin's coach, Glenn Thistlethwaite, refuses to cut stadium grass to please Notre Dame's coach, Knute Rockne; Wisconsin wins. 

01:13:03	While Glenn Frank is president, he and his wife have personal seats in stadium for football games. After Frank is fired and replaced by Clarence Dykstra, a breakdown in athletic department communications results in the Dykstra's being seated in the Frank's seats first time they attempt to attend football game. Potential embarrassing situation is avoided when the Frank's elect not to attend game. 

01:20:34	For football games, president given ten seats and governor four; president's seats located above governor's. 

01:21:53	When second deck added to stadium, athletic department offers to construct an enclosed seating facility for president but President Harrington declines offer. 

01:25:15	WA shot game films for University athletic department at away football games. 

01:27:33	Father Flanigan of Boys' Town, Nebraska, joins one of California-bound football teams in Omaha, Nebraska; accompanies team to California, where University appears for first time in Rose Bowl. 

01:29:29	University goes to Rose Bowl in 1938, 1954, and in 1954.  Fred worries about flying team to California when athletic department chooses to take plane instead of train. 

01:30:53	Ivan Williamson, in first year as athletic director, questions sending football team to Iowa by plane.  

01:31:50	Discusses taking trains to games.  

01:33:10	Senator Robert LaFollette accompanies football team on train from Chicago to Washington, D.C. for a game against Columbia during war years. Upon arrival, gives WA about forty dollars to buy something for team. 

01:36:07	For game against Michigan State, football team housed in Jackson, MI.  Expect to be taken to game by buses--they don't arrive on time.  Team transported by rental and private cars. [end side 1; begin Tape 2/Side 2]

01:39:46	When Harry Stuhldreher takes team to Rose Bowl in 1953 for University first Rose Bowl game, WA is athletic business manager, director of ticket sales.  Makes all team and fan arrangements for game.

01:43:45	Committee makes these arrangements for 1960 and 1963 Rose Bowls. Milt Bruhn coached.

01:45:31	In 1953, team taken to religious mission night before game to spend a quiet, undisturbed evening.

01:47:44	In 1961, WA serves as consultant to University of Minnesota at Rose Bowl. 

01:48:39	1963 Rose Bowl, Wisconsin's attempted come-from-behind victory falls short when game ends in dark of evening. Questions raised concerning referee's holding start of game by 20 minutes.

01:50:34	Film made about former UW football great and Athletic Director Elroy Hirsch, he is incorrectly identified as playing for Michigan.

01:51:53	End of First Interview Session

Second Interview Session (February 18, 1976): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	[Start of Interview] Hockey facilities once on lower campus where Memorial Library is now located.  Before this, Chicago and Minnesota football games played there.

00:03:36	Later, homecoming bonfire set in this area; Freshman-Sophomore Bag Rush held here in morning, before football game. Cap Night held here also.

00:08:18	Dr. Walter Meanwell, UW Basketball coach, warns players to stay away from hockey games when one of his star players hit by puck while watching game against Michigan.

00:09:04	During Depression, athletic department under tight budget withdraws from intercollegiate hockey competition, allowed to continue as club sport under Guy Lowman. He explains the logic behind club sports.

00:13:21	Major sports during Depression: football, basketball, cross country, crew and track.

00:13:47	During this time, possible to earn only a major athletic letter award in one of major sports.  Minor athletic letter awards are given in minor sports.  

00:14:12	Later, all sports are considered major sports--possible to earn either letter award in same sport. Thomas Jones track coach, awards on a participation-contribution basis.

00:16:58	Because no freshmen participation is permitted at this time, they may only earn numeral awards.  

00:17:57	Today, coach and team captain recommendations determine whether an athlete wins a major or minor letter award.  

00:18:06	Team captains from various sports make up student athletic board.  They have some say in determining who wins major or minor letters.   

00:19:01	[begin Tape 3/Side 1**] A.L. Masley and Archie Simonson create good fencing program at University.  Simonson starts women's team also.

00:23:44	Joe Steinauer and successor, John Hickman, give University a strong swimming program.  Athletic Director Elroy Hirsch adds to program by hiring John Pettinger as coach.

00:27:50	Thomas E. Jones, track coach from 1913-1948, develops many top track athletes.

00:29:11	Question raised about black Wisconsin athlete competing in triangular meet with Notre Dame, Missouri, Wisconsin withdraws from meet. Athletic Board states that either entire team competes, or it will not compete at all.

00:32:20	Before Memorial Shell is renovated, has capacity of 4,200 for indoor meets.  After renovation, capacity reduced to 1,600.

00:35:48	University and Big Ten rule that athlete must maintain 1.6 grade point average hinders athletic department's ability to attract black athletes to University.  University has good relations with black coaches and athletes.

00:41:47	WA prefers that scholarships given based on need rather than athletic ability.

00:44:27	John Powless, suffering another losing season as basketball coach, asked to resign by Hirsch.

00:45:31	Basketball, at one time a money-making sport, no longer is; boxing also was.  Now athletic department hopes to have football, basketball, and hockey be profitable, and carry others financially.  

00:46:52	[end side 1; begin tape 3/Side 2**] Hirsch considered dropping crew as a major sport.  

00:47:16	Coaches under pressure to either win or resign. Hired on contract only without faculty status.

00:52:08	Athletic department formed in 1913 by state legislative statute, which declares it must be a self-supporting program receiving no monetary aid from state.  

00:53:19	In recent years, department is aided by state legislature, which sets aside fixed number of tuition-free scholarships for its use.  All athletic facilities are paid for by athletic department programs.  

00:58:17	Athletic department, along with National Collegiate Athletic Association, suspicious of U.S. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare's Title IX ruling that men's and women's athletic programs must be funded on an equal basis.  Neither objects to giving of women an equal opportunity to participate in intercollegiate athletics.  Question as to where to find funding to provide equal facilities and opportunities.

01:11:34	Athletic department has had women's crew program for several years.  

01:13:44	University athletic board states that if women are to be allowed to compete in intercollegiate competition, they must maintain same eligibility standards as men.  

01:16:46	End of Second Interview Session [end tape 3; side 2]**

Third Interview Session (February 27, 2009): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview [begin Tape 4/Side 1]**  Athletic department erects general skating and hockey facilities on lower campus, where Memorial Library and State Historical Society now stand.  Intercollegiate competition held there until 1935.  

00:01:41	With athletic revenues falling in early years of Depression, hockey and wrestling are converted to club sports by athletic department.  Guy Lowman put in charge of club sports.  

00:03:15	Athletic department plays both intercollegiate football games and hockey matches on lower campus.  

00:04:06	Joe Steinauer of athletic department broadcasts games on radio.  

00:05:23	Athletic department gives up intercollegiate hockey competition in 1935, due to cost and because outdoor facility on lower campus matches must be played late at night when winter thaws occur in order to have good ice.  

00:06:32	Before 1933, University has strong intramural boxing program, with All-University Tournaments held in Red Gym.  

00:07:50	University's boxing team enters intercollegiate competition in 1933 against St. Thomas College.  Boxing coach John Walsh participates in competition.  Leonard "Stub" Allison also plays prominent role in building intercollegiate boxing team.  

00:08:37	George Downer, athletic publicity director and former Milwaukee Sentinel sports reporter, talks Walsh into coming to University as boxing coach.  Walsh remains twenty-five years, building Wisconsin into national power.  

00:10:59	Athletic department hosts Olympic-team competitions in fieldhouse, and also Pan American Games boxing competition. 

00:11:53	Charlie Mohr boxing for University, collapses and dies following intercollegiate fight in fieldhouse.  Although medical reports indicate he did not die from injuries received in ring, there is demand to discontinue sport.  Boxing discontinued in 1960.

00:15:17	Faculty representative Dr. William Lorenz, sitting on athletic board, is strong anti-boxing proponent.

00:16:53	Total of 14,500 fans regularly filled fieldhouse to capacity for boxing matches.  Record 15,500 fans jam into Fieldhouse for match against Washington State College.

00:20:04	Freshman-sophomore Bag Rush competition held on lower campus until discontinued in 1927.

00:22:40	Lower Campus--scene of homecoming bonfire, Cap Night burning festivities.

00:28:30	George Hitchcock and George Martin make wrestling a popular sport at University.  Promote it to state's secondary schools.

00:30:42	Fencing becomes strong sport at University.  Archie Simonson serves as coach for many years. [end side 1; begin Tape 4/Side 2]

00:32:51	When athletic director and coaching vacancies occur, athletic board appoints a screening committee to screen potential applicants.  Committee makes a recommendation to board, which makes recommendation to president, who then makes recommendation to regents for final appointment.  

00:34:41	Faculty control of athletic board with right to make recommendations without administrative interference, is a stipulation imposed upon its members by Big Ten Conference. 

00:37:57	In 1932, athletic board felt there was too much alumni influence in appointment of Dr. C.W. Spears as head football coach and resigns. New board, with Andrew Weaver as chairman, appointed.             

00:40:48	While George Little is athletic director and Glenn Thistlethwaite is head football coach, controversy erupts over whether coaches should be paid both as faculty and athletic department personnel.  This leads to both Little and Thistlethwaite resigning.  

00:46:48	Dr. C.W. Spears is appointed head football coach replacing Thistlethwaite, amidst much rumor concerning his coaching ethics involving use of tape and cocaine.  Meanwell is appointed athletic director replacing Little.  

00:54:07	During 1935 season ill-will between Meanwell and Spears erupts into open conflict when liquor is found in locker room following Northwestern game; thought to have been used during half-time of Minnesota game.  Athletic board investigates and asks Spears to resign. Regents investigate and ask Meanwell to resign, also call for resignation of Spear's trainer, William Fallan. Ultimately, all three resign.   

01:03:03	[begin Tape 5/Side 1] Following resignations of Meanwell and Spears, search is undertaken to find new athletic director and/or football coach. Athletic board interviews Harry Stuhldreher of Villanova and recommends him for both positions, appointed to both.  

01:10:07	Stuhldreher is instrumental in getting second balcony installed in fieldhouse, additions to stadium.

01:12:21	As football coach, Stuhldreher builds a national power contender in 1942. Resigns as football coach following 1948 season. Bud Wilkinson, coach of Oklahoma, sought for position, but he declines.  

01:16:50	A number of candidates are interviewed, and Ivan Williamson of Lafayette College is offered position as head football coach.  

01:19:39	Stuhldreher leaves athletic director's position; Guy Sundt is appointed new director.  

01:21:21	When Sundt dies, Williamson becomes athletic director, and Milt Bruhn, his line coach, becomes head football coach.  

01:21:57	When Bruhn resigns as coach, John Coatta, a former University football player and a coach under Bruhn, is appointed head football coach.  

01:23:45	Following Coatta's dismissal, John Jardine is brought to University as head football coach on recommendation of athletic director, Elroy Hirsch.  

01:24:02	During Stuhldreher's thirteen years as athletic director and head football coach, WA had good, open working relationship with him.  

01:25:32	When George Little is athletic director, he, WA and George Levis, department's business manager, build department's operating budget.

01:26:33	Williamson as athletic director allows too many things to go unattended--finally asked to resign.  

01:27:33	Bruhn as head football coach allows player recruiting to decline, loses confidence of some of his staff--ultimately forced to resign. 

01:28:15	Hirsch proves to be open-minded individual to work with. 

01:29:19	John Jardine as head football coach writes WA a personal thank you letter after conclusion of each season, and awards him game ball after his last football game with athletic department. 

01:33:10	Aspinwall considers 1942 and 1963 football teams two of University's greatest.   

01:34:48	[end side 1; begin Tape 5/Side 2] Because players played both offense and defense, 1942 team probably is University's greatest. 

01:36:40	In 1932, George Levis, both athletic business manager and manager of ticket sales, leaves University.  WA becomes business manager of athletics; Harry Swanker becomes manager of ticket sales. 

01:39:32	Following Swanker's death in 1942, athletic department again combines two positions, and WA assumes duties of both. WA oversees entire ticket sale operation for 1953 Rose Bowl. 

01:46:33	Students at this time are issued an athletic events card, used to purchase an athletic coupon book.  WA spots student scheme attempting to duplicate athletic cards. 

01:48:44	WA uncovers a Milwaukee attorney's attempt to defraud ticket office of large number of tickets. 

01:51:15	Athletic ticket office then has student photographs and signatures placed on ticket books to stop fraudulent use of tickets; weekly court session is held to deal with offenders. 

01:54:10	Ticket office runs out of tickets for 1928 Wisconsin-Minnesota football game; an estimated 5,000 fans tear down fence on southern end of stadium and storm into stands. 

01:57:19	While George Little is athletic director, athletic department is charged with installing University piers on Lake Mendota and handling lifesaving equipment. F. Louise Nardin, dean of women, objects to attempted elimination of women's pier. 

02:02:02	William Ellery Leonard takes over one of University's piers as his own and objects to student use of pier.   

02:04:19	End of Third Interview Session [end tape 5/side 2]

Fourth Interview Session (March 1, 1976): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview [begin Tape 6/Side 1] During thirties and forties, athletic department has trouble locating black athletes who are capable of meeting University academic standards.  

00:03:04	On road trips, no differentiation as to color.  Black and white room together as to position--ends with ends, tackles with tackles, etc. 

00:04:41	Rice University in Houston objects to black UW basketball players staying in public facilities in city, arranges for players to stay at homes of prominent black citizens. 

00:05:35	While Thomas Jones is track coach, University of Missouri objects to Wisconsin having a black athlete on squad, UW cancels triangular meet with Missouri and Notre Dame.  Athletic Board decides that in all intercollegiate competition all UW participants would travel, eat, and sleep together--and be treated equally. 

00:08:34	Title IX of Department of Health, Education, and Welfare legislation guarantees that women have equal right to participate in intercollegiate athletics, it does not state where money for athletic programs and facilities is to come from.  This presents problem since university athletic programs are self-supported, not government supported. 

00:15:53	Women's athletics remained on club status basis for many years because of above fact--there was no supporting income. 

00:16:45	National Collegiate Athletic Association argues in federal courts that since athletic programs have never been federally funded, federal Department of Health, Education, and Welfare does not have right to state that women's athletic programs should be funded as part of men's program. 

00:25:34	UW attempts to locate a position for John Powless within the University, following his dismissal as head basketball coach. 

00:28:26	Milton Bruhn previously receives similar treatment. 

00:29:18	Athletic staff size and expenses have both increased over years. [end side 1; begin Tape 6/Side 2] Continuation of staff size discussion; number of full-time trainers now needed. 

00:32:47	More administrative personnel is needed in program today. 

00:34:19	The costs of everything has risen. During war years, because of rationing, athletic department has teams carry their own meat and butter. 

00:37:12	Media, sometimes with help of institution's publicity department, over builds potential of teams and players. 

00:41:20	When WA retires, Hirsch recommends to athletic board that he be made business manager emeritus; board does this--permitting him to carry on departmental research.  

00:49:35	Aspinwall serves as secretary-treasurer of College Athletic Business Association.   

00:57:04	End of Fourth Interview Session

End of Oral History #3

** 	During the recording process, material from the first side of the third tape was dubbed over during a subsequent session (February 18, 1976).  When the interviewer realized the error, the material was rerecorded during the third interview session (February 27, 1976).  The interviewer’s notes indicate that this material was intended to be part of the first interview session, but it has been included here in the order in which it was recorded.