UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #286
HART, VIRGINIA B.

HART, Virginia B. (1914- )
Graduate student; Instructor, School for Workers; Wife of Henry Hart (Professor of Political Science, #222)
At UW: 1943; 1946-1973

First Interview
Interviewed: 1984	
Interviewer: Carol Buelow
Length: 1.5 hours

Background; Teaching in School for Workers; Women's movement; Work for Democratic Party; Political Science Department; Husband Henry Hart's support for her work; Stay in India; Positions in state government; Women in government; Home life; Husband's role.

Second Interview
Interviewed: 2004	
Interviewer: Maurice Better
Length: 2 hours

Childhood and education; Position at International Ladies’ Garment Workers’ Union in Tennessee; Graduate work at UW; Teaching in School for Workers; Classes; Students; Colleagues; Women and the labor movement; Appointment to state government.

FIRST INTERVIEW (1984)

Tape 1

00:00:03	Graduated from Rochester University in 1936.  Met husband during summer school in New York, at Columbia University.  Married in 1939.  Had been in social work with YWCA, became interested in unions.

00:01:35	Moved to Knoxville, Tennessee.  Got job as director of the local ILGWU in 1942.  Did literacy classes, hobby classes, and also worked on union contracts for factories.  Came to Wisconsin with classes during the summer, to attend School for Workers which was quite a famous school for union workers.  Decided to attend school along with the delegates.  Very traumatic, due to racial mixture of people in group.

00:04:45	This started her interest in UW and labor economics.  Decided to come here to do her graduate work.  Her husband drafted in 1943-1944, so decided she would start work here.  Husband wanted to come too.  Worked on masters degree for year, then joined husband, Henry, in Texas where he was stationed.  Both of them came here in 1946.  She started teaching, he began doctoral work.

00:06:45	Wonderful relationship with school and faculty.  Everyone very friendly.

00:07:19	Got to know professors in political science department, her husband's field of work.  Saw professors socially, as well as in school, due to age of her and her husband.

00:08:55	Thinks Midwest has quality of openness and friendliness.  This helped her.

00:09:43	Ernest Schwartztrauber was director of labor economics group.  People in the group really believed in what they were doing.  VH felt there was quite an "evangelical fervor" about it.

00:09:57	Philosophy of School for Workers at UW discussed.  School rented fraternity houses for housing during summer, later used dorms.  Socializing of faculty and students went on.  VH thinks it very different now.  Good social structure along with classes.  She felt it was good for factory workers to get away from hum-drum jobs, and develop their skills.

00:13:45	VH at School for Workers for 30 years.  Not full time all of the time.

00:15:13	University thought of this program as radical.  Some thought it taught people to strike, or to be socialist.  Charges by conservative people.

00:15:49	Speaks of master’s thesis.

00:16:55	Really taught people to be part of community, when in labor group.  E.B. Fred was president of the UW at this time.  The administration was supportive.  Nathan Feinsinger, a labor expert at the law school, and Elizabeth Brandeis were part of labor group.  When Young was president of UW, acted as director of school for year. VH also notes good labor leadership in state.

00:19:25	Different groups came to school in summer.  In winter, group went out to communities to teach.  Typically, workers who came to classes had to be interested in what was being taught or they wouldn't come.

00:21:10	Some opposition from management of companies.  VH feels it no longer exists.

00:21:40	Can't recall any specific happenings during McCarthy era.

00:22:15	Women’s movement discussed.  Some disadvantages to being only woman on staff.  Really wasn't one of the boys.  But there was genuine acceptance of her.  Gradually more women came to school, used to be all male.  She began to get women's consciousness.  1970 was first class just for women, training to be union leaders.  Worked with AFL-CIO in Milwaukee.

00:25:11	Speaks of Kate Clarenbach, and working with union people.

00:26:08	Grew up thinking she could do anything.  Liked to help people and liked politics.  Knew many women were timid, but she wasn't.

00:27:29	Speaks of identical twin sister.  She is career woman, and her sister is a housewife, even though both were active in college.  VH never really had goals or plans, just took what came along.

00:29:17	School for Workers hired woman lawyer to teach women workers of their rights.  She had done classes on discrimination herself, also.  Thinks that the lawyer was representative of women's movement.  Women of her age who worked, didn't have women's movement when they started.

00:31:29	VH speaks of people working in unions to accomplish things.

00:31:55	Husband got tired of her travelling.  Wanted her to stay home and help him work on his Ph.D.  It was great strain on their relationship.  VH took job with housing authority, which led to work with Democratic Party.  VH became first Executive Director of the Democratic Party for the state.  Very exciting time.  Mentions Jim Doyle, and Gaylord Nelson.

00:33:46	VH got people to help.  Thinks her talent is organizing and working with people.  Speaks of faculty and politics, and how they mix.

00:35:20	She never joined faculty wives organizing.  Too busy doing other things.  Husband asked to join faculty after completing Ph.D. work.  Rare opportunity.  Became assistant professor in the political science department.

00:36:39	Speaks of social life in political science department, and other departments in UW.  Went to other faculty members homes, and often entertained.  Faculty wives were not together often.

00:39:20	VH's husband chairman of Indian Studies, but never of political science department.

00:39:45	Never pressured by husband.  Was away from home a lot.  Really took joint effort as far as marriage was concerned.

00:40:45	Adopted children, after they had been married 11 years.  Got first child, a daughter, in 1950.  Four years later, in 1954, adopted a son. 

00:41:20	Went to India, came back, went again and came back, all in early 1950's and 1960's, due to husband's research.

00:42:15	Served on community welfare council.  Became first woman president of that.  Learned much about Madison and power structure.

00:43:55	Met Mary Louise Symon around 1966.  Mary Louise leader of Fair Employment Practice Commission in Madison.

00:45:15	Discusses life in India with children.  Tough for them when they became school age, due to friendships.  Relates story about daughter Nancy.

00:47:50	VH found work in India, but also went to school there.  Had a good job with Association for International Development in India in 1963, teaching people to become teachers.

00:49:47	Talks about coming back to the U.S. after India, incredible difference, in standard of living, as well as social life.

00:52:05	Political science department.  Good faculty, very close friendships.  Her husband really liked department.  People really interesting.  Really feels it is different from other departments.

00:56:49	Speaks of husband's interests in field and in India.

00:57:24	Went into state government in 1973.  Appointed Secretary of Department of Licensing and Regulation by Governor Lucey.  Had some power, really enjoyed it.

01:00:55	First woman in this position.  Really good feeling.

01:01:48	Felt pressure because of being first woman.  Thought she knew government.  Much more pressure than she thought, leading an agency.

01:02:40	End of Tape 1.

Tape 2

01:02:43	Describes Joint Finance Committee, when she was in government.  Thinks she might have been treated better because she was a woman.  This gave her confidence.

01:05:13	VH had to convince her husband that she should have job Governor Lucey offered her. Really glad she did, found it a growing experience.  Learned much about licensing, government procedures, attended meetings.  VH started workshop to learn licensing procedures to comply with the law.  Felt most people had no idea what the law was.  Felt agency was not accustomed to having professional, hard-working person as a director.  Time was about 1973-1975.

01:08:25	Appointed Chairwoman of Department of Labor and Human Relations by Governor Lucey in 1975.  Many problems to confront.  Toughest job she ever had.  60-hour work week was typical.  Bad things said about her in papers.  Feels now that people didn't like a woman in the position she held.

01:10:35	Reorganization of department and government when Schrieber started as governor.  Started review board, she was full time member.  Very quiet work compared to what she had been used to.  Did this for four years.

01:11:50	Talks about women who have high state government positions now.  Thinks people are used to it now.  She saw the growth of women, and believes they're better educated than they used to be.

01:14:08	Was appointed to Public Defenders Board by Governor Earl when she was retiring.  Still goes to meetings.  Also on Madison Police and Fire Commission.  Describes both positions; both very interesting positions to her.

01:16:45	Talks about career and home life.  Did some work in her free time, but she quit when children were adopted.  Gradually, started teaching part time.  Also had live-in UW student who helped out in return for room and board.  Really good situation.  She did feel guilty at times though, felt she did not give kids enough attention.

01:21:45	Husband helped with house and children, but VH still managed house.  Family feels VH is very much the executive type.  Husband didn't know a lot about her work.  VH very proud of being married to professor.

01:24:58	Both VH and husband really like Wisconsin and UW.  Various experiences.

01:25:32	Protest movement.  Everyone very concerned about tension and violence.  Sewell, chancellor at the time.  Opposition really got to him.  Fleming had a cool head for dealing with violence.  Separated faculty, those who could and could not cope with situation.  VH thinks it wouldn't happen now.  Talks about huge mass meeting at Union Theatre.

01:29:20	Speaks of Chancellor Young.

01:31:23	End of interview.

SECOND INTERVIEW (2004)

Interview Session (January 19, 2004): Tapes 3-4

Tape 3

00:00:03	Virginia Hart does not trace her interest in labor economics to her early childhood.  She notes that her family was conservative.

00:01:40	VH graduated from the University of Rochester in 1936.  Women attended classes at the downtown campus, and men attended classes at a newer campus.  The university later became completely coeducational.

00:02:24	VH explains that her family had little money.  Her mother had planned to pay for her children’s education by selling some antique furniture she owned.  A wealthy man she contacted did not want to buy the furniture, but decided instead to pay for the college education of VH and her twin sister.

00:04:10	VH’s family had moved from a small town to Rochester so that VH and her sister could attend a good high school.

00:05:12	VH explains that her interest in social justice was furthered by the conferences she attended as president of her college Young Women’s Christian Association (YWCA) organization.  She majored in sociology and psychology.  She recalls that a well-known sociologist who was extremely liberal once invited his wife to give a presentation to his students about birth control and abortion.

00:06:26	When VH and her sister graduated, they both found positions as social workers in Rochester.  VH then took a position at a YWCA.  It was at this time that she first learned about unions.  Because there was no union for social workers, they were allowed to join the teachers’ union.  VH learned about workers’ schools from some union members she met.

00:08:50	After three years, VH moved to Tennessee, where her husband had a position with the Tennessee Valley Authority.  VH accepted a position at a YWCA working with female factory workers.  At the time, unions for textile workers were beginning to be established.  Several years later VH took a position as education director for the International Ladies’ Garment Workers’ Union (ILGWU).

00:11:00	VH explains that her interest in labor education came from her sense that workers were treated poorly.  She never joined the communist or socialist party, although while living in Rochester she attended League for Industrial Democracy (LID) lectures.

00:12:16	The ILGWU was a pioneer in labor education.  As education director, VH’s responsibility was to provide mandatory training to new workers about the union contract and the grievance procedure.  She also tried to involve new union members in union activities.

00:15:00	VH loved the challenges of her position.  The union offered optional classes to workers on topics such as reading and writing, union administration, and grievance handling.  Workers could also participate in social events like bowling, picnics and square-dances.  The director of the ILGWU once asked VH why the union was offering a class in dress-making to the textile workers, and she replied that several workers had requested such a class.

00:16:35	VH spent two years working at the ILGWU.  After her husband was drafted, two other women active in labor organizations lived with her until he returned.  VH remembers visiting ministers to educate them about unions.

00:17:43	VH jokes that she did not know the word “shit” until she began working with unions.  Even though she came from a more privileged background that other union members, she got along very well with them.

00:18:35	The ILGWU came to Madison every summer to attend the School for Workers.  VH and two other ILGWU delegates attended the school in 1943.  The school did not allow any distinctions based on race.  One of the other ILGWU delegates could not tolerate sitting in a classroom with a black man and left the school.

00:20:56	VH attended a concurrent institute on religion and labor run by the School for Workers.  The institute was led by a former clergyman who worked for the Religion and Labor Foundation.

00:22:20	The interviewer notes that the School for Workers was initially known as the School for Industrial Women and was supported by the YWCA.  VH says she did not learn of the School for Industrial Women through her work with the YWCA.

00:22:55	VH relates an anecdote about the graduate work she later did at UW.  When VH was working on her Master’s degree, Selig Perlman allowed her to publish her Union Community Handbook in lieu of handing in a thesis.  She remembers that someone connected with the Manufacturers Association thought her handbook was communist.

00:26:13	When VH visited the school as a summer student in 1943, she decided to return to Madison to do graduate work.  Around the same time, her husband expressed interest in studying political science at UW with John Gaus.

00:28:00	VH mentions a job she was offered as education director for the AFL-CIO in Arkansas.

00:29:24	VH says that when she first started working for the ILGWU, she knew little about unions.  She picked up information while on the job.

00:30:44	VH begins to talk about her graduate career at UW.

00:31:27	End of side.

00:31:43	VH took many political science and economics classes.  Because she was older than the other students in her classes, she became acquainted with many faculty members.  Her husband arrived three years after she did.

00:32:58	During the war there were few men on campus, and classes were small.  VH was impressed by the Wisconsin Idea and the historical link between the state government and the university.  Harold Groves, the person who interviewed VH, did not hold her lack of undergraduate economics courses against her.

00:35:50	VH worked full-time at the School for Workers from 1946, when she earned her Master’s degree, until 1948.  The people on the staff of the school were Ernest Schwarztrauber, Vidkunn Ulriksson, and Eva Schwartzman.  Schwarztrauber convinced VH to join his congregational church and to serve on its social justice committee.  The minister of the church, Alfred Swann, was known for his pro-labor views.

00:38:39	VH designed and ran a six-week summer training program for people who wanted to study labor education.  Several national figures in the labor movement assisted with the course.  Just as VH had earlier submitted a handbook instead of a Master’s thesis, a student in the course, Hy Kornbluh, submitted a booklet he had written on workers’ compensation and unemployment compensation in lieu of a Master’s thesis.

00:41:04	The training program ran for several summers.  VH talks about the facilities used by the School for Workers.  Classes were held on campus, and delegates to the summer courses stayed in fraternity and sorority houses.

00:43:02	VH notes that delegates tolerated fairly meager living conditions.  Many of them earned low incomes and did not expect a high standard of living.

00:45:16	VH talks about the classes students took.  They studied union administration, steward training, parliamentary procedure, and public speaking.  She notes that many wanted to become involved in union leadership but lacked the confidence to speak publicly.  Staff wrote their own course materials.

00:47:04	The average class size during summer school varied from fifteen to twenty-five.  The ILGWU requested that its delegates take particular courses, such as psychology.  The instructor who taught psychology was a pioneer in the field of industrial psychology.

00:48:53	VH talks about some other people who taught at the school.  She notes that there was a lot of labor activity in Chicago during the 1940s and 1950s.

00:50:15	VH describes a typical day at the summer school.  Delegates attended classes in the mornings and workshops in the afternoons.  She talks about the pedagogical approaches she used.

00:54:48	In the evenings there were short programs, after which delegates had free time.  VH fondly remembers going to the Union Terrace and singing labor songs with delegates.  As the labor movement changed over the years, VH was struck by a loosening of the social bonds between the school staff and the delegates.  In later years, staff went home immediately after teaching their courses.

00:57:33	When institutes lasted two weeks, delegates did not have a structured program over the weekend.  They could participate in optional sightseeing trips.

00:58:52	VH talks about some of the colleagues she knew best. Ernest Schwarztrauber, the director of the school, had a firm conviction of the school’s importance.

01:00:56	Vidkunn Ulriksson, the assistant director, arrived at the school in the late 1940s after working at a telegraph union.

01:02:50	End of tape 3.

Tape 4

01:02:55	VH continues to talk about her colleague Ulriksson. It was uncomfortable for Ulriksson and VH when employer representatives attended their classes.

01:05:30	VH explains that she was not aware of any factions between the school personnel, perhaps in part because she did not have a long-term position at the school. After working full-time at the school for two years, she spent two years as executive secretary at the Democratic Party headquarters. She then returned to teach part-time at the school. She remembers how difficult it was to travel to other cities by bus.

01:08:01	VH and Ulriksson were once snowbound two nights in a row while traveling by train.

01:09:39	VH talks about her salary and title. Although wages were low, they were higher than workers made elsewhere.

01:11:15	She did not think of her work for the school as a career. Around the 1970s, several people used the school as a stepping stone to obtain faculty positions at the university. She does not know if staff were given vacation time and were allowed to contribute to a pension plan.

01:14:17	VH remembers that her students were almost entirely men. She later worked to bring more women to the school by developing specific classes for them. Few women took on leadership roles in unions.  The state AFL-CIO once asked VH why she spent so much time with women.

01:17:47	VH’s labor education classes attracted both men and women. Students in other classes were mostly men. VH never felt her gender was a disadvantage to her, and thought it was important for her students to see a woman teaching. She notes that many women first came to the labor movement through the YWCA.

01:19:55	There were several notable Wisconsin women in the labor movement, such as Kathryn Clarenbach. Some women in the labor movement formed 9-5, an organization for women.

01:21:25	VH taught union administration because she knew a lot about running an organization and encouraging members to participate. She explains that although she was never a steward, she was comfortable teaching steward training because of what she learned from her colleagues, especially Norris Tibbetts.

01:23:17	VH and her husband later spent time in Hawaii, where she was hired by a labor management institute. VH remembers how much she enjoyed teaching such a diverse group of students.

01:25:15	When VH was living in India, she was hired by the US Agency for International Development (USAID) to prepare teaching materials for labor classes. She talks about her attempts to encourage social workers and union representatives to cooperate.

01:29:02	VH explains that she worked full-time at the school every summer, and until 1970, part-time the rest of the year. From 1970 until 1973, she worked full-time at the school year-round. In 1973, VH became the first woman in the cabinet after the governor appointed her head of the Department of Regulation and Licensing. Two years later, she transferred to a position in the Department of Industry, Labor and Human Relations.

01:30:36	VH talks about changes she saw in the School for Workers between the 1940s and the 1970s. The spirit of solidarity and collegiality between staff and delegates declined over the years. She explains that because of her many activities since the 1970s, she has difficulty remembering all the details of her career at the school.

01:34:16	End of side.

01:34:25	VH remembers that in the early 1970s, she asked Robert Ozanne, the director of the school, for a title and the right to contribute to the pension plan. She was given the title of lecturer and was admitted to the pension plan.

01:36:15	VH does not believe that other staff in the school had titles in the 1940s and 1950s, apart from the director and assistant director. The interviewer notes the high turnover in the school staff during these years. VH agrees that there was no career track at the school, and that many staff moved on to positions as education directors at unions.

01:38:36	Staff were paid less than faculty members at the university. VH recalls that there were few staff meetings. She and the interviewer comment on Ozanne’s leadership style.

01:40:57	After VH moved to a full-time position in 1970, she served on an extension committee. She does not remember the subject of the committee.

01:42:09	At one point the School for Workers moved from a building on West Johnson to the Extension Building on Lake Street. The building on West Johnson, of which the school occupied only the second floor, was inadequate for its needs.

01:43:36	VH talks about her motivation for writing a union community handbook. She talks about her conviction that it is important for unions to work with different segments of the community.

01:46:50	In the mid 1940s, when VH was in graduate school, she took a summer position at a local factory because she wanted to learn what factory work was like. She found the detailed work monotonous.

01:48:26	The interviewer notes that the School for Workers was started in 1923 by young factory women who were sponsored by the YWCA. VH recalls what she learned about factory conditions in the late 1930s, when she was working in Rochester.

01:50:00	VH comments on changes in labor education throughout her career. She talks about how important it was for union representatives to become educated and to gain self-confidence so that when they attended collective bargaining sessions, they could stand up to the lawyers hired by management. VH says it was thrilling to see the impact the School for Workers had on its students.

01:52:08	VH expresses her gratitude to the School of Workers for an enjoyable and rewarding career. The experience she gained at the school allowed her to move into state government positions where she was able to further the Wisconsin Idea.

01:55:33	VH says a few words about the community classes the school taught in various Wisconsin cities during the school year. In her opinion, the Wisconsin labor movement has always strongly supported the school.

01:58:03	VH remembers that she always liked to eat a hot fudge sundae after teaching her classes. The interviewer remembers school member Norris Tibbetts leading sing-alongs of labor songs.

02:00:17	In 1961, the school offered a ten-week program for foreign trade unionists. The following summer, VH coordinated this program. Because she had lived in India, she greatly enjoyed meeting the six Indian trade unionists who attended the program. She also mentions several Japanese students she remembers.

02:05:38	End of side. End of tape.			

End of Oral History #286