UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #1335
[Last name redacted, First name redacted]

[Last name redacted, First name redacted]

Interviewed: 	2012 (1 session)
Interviewer: 	Kara Bissen
Index by: 	Tiffany Schroeder
Length: 	1 hour, 57 minutes
Series:		Eau Claire’s LGBT Community, 1960s to present

Abstract: In his June 2012 interview with Kara Bissen, Anonymous details his experience of coming out. He addresses the issues he faced coming out to his wife and children, and his experiences as a grown, married man. This interview was conducted for inclusion into the UW-Madison Oral History Program.

Key Words: Madison, Milwaukee, Minnesota, Minneapolis, children, wife, church, Community Theater, electronics, layoffs, jobs, divorce, college, parents, Q2, open, AIDS, GSA, community center, PRIDE

First Interview Session (June 6, 2012): Audio File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Kara Bissen introduces Anonymous on the sixth of June, 2012, in Eau Claire, Wisconsin.

00:00:10	[no question] Anonymous has felt attracted to both genders since his teens. He thinks that part of it is inherited and also could be of his childhood. His parents were divorced at the age of 11. He never dated. His older brother committed suicide. He felt uncomfortable bringing people over. He regrets not being more involved in school.  Anonymous liked to play electronics and bike. 

00:01:50	[no question] Anonymous gained more confidence working at a scout camp. He had unspoken crushes on men. He lived at home through college. He moved out after college, and discovered Community Theater. He began dating girls on the casts. One moved in with him, and they had a messy break up. He began answering some male for male personal ads. He eventually gave up on finding someone, and focused on graduate degree. Visited one friend, and had his first homosexual experience. 

00:04:26	[no question] Anonymous met his wife at a community show. He decided to quit college and pursued a family. He pushed any homosexual feelings down. He got a job, engaged, and marriage. His wife got him to attend church. He and his wife were civil, had a good love life, and had two children. They had a lot going on, and they decreased on intimacy. 

00:06:17	[no question] His wife became clinically depressed around eight years. They got counseling, and Anonymous revealed his gay thoughts. Things got better for about a year. Sex life dropped over time, and Anonymous began masturbating and watching porn. They made excuses as to why it was happening, and stayed together for convenience. Anonymous was becoming more envious of happier people. Anonymous finally completely told his wife about the extent of his gay thoughts. They had a lot of emotions, and tried to figure out how to best go about their situation. 

00:09:17	[no question] They began to start telling their story to out of town friends. Their friends were surprised but supportive. Anonymous tried to go to a church group for pornography and sexual addiction. Anonymous wanted to be out of the closet. They met with a non-church counselor. His wife got diagnosed with clinical depression. Anonymous also took anti- depressants. Anonymous began telling more friends.

00:11:37	[no question] Anonymous ventured to a drag show. The second summer after coming out to wife, they decided to get a divorce and see other people. They decided to live in the same house. A year and a half later, his wife decided to move out. Their primary focus is the kids. Anonymous no longer goes to church. Websites like straightspouse.org and gaychristian.net have been useful. A conference in Minneapolis was also helpful.  

00:15:24	Question: Could we backtrack to your childhood years and the friendships you were gaining and not gaining? Answer: Anonymous’s grade school years were fine, and he was taking piano lessons because of his mother while his brothers were doing things like fishing. Around fifth and sixth grade his brothers and their friends were turning into the smoking crowd. Anonymous was involved in Boy Scouts starting in sixth grade. Anonymous reached Eagle Scout. The scouting friends were his closest. Anonymous had a lot of friends at school, but didn’t outside of school. 

00:18:20	[no question] Answer: Anonymous didn’t date during school, and wishes he would have gotten more involved. 

00:19:04	Question: Do you wish you would you have come out sooner? Answer: Anonymous does wish he would have come out sooner. It is easier these days to do it, and doesn’t want to live with regret. He sees a lot of people in their 20’s that came out that deal with a lot of drama. By not coming out, Anonymous was able to focus on work and his career. 

00:20:13	Question: What do you think contributed to your delayed coming out? Answer: Anonymous didn’t know much about gay people other than the stereotypes of pervert. At the community theater, he knew older people that were gay, but not many younger people. He kept thinking he didn’t have the right type of friends, or didn’t meet the right type of girl. He may have feared being teased, and didn’t experience anything with church stigma. AIDS was a bigger deal while in college and he only thought the worst of the things. 

00:22:52	Question: Did you grow up in the Midwest? Answer: Anonymous is from Madison. 

00:22:57	Question: How do you think that contributed to your coming out? Answer: Anonymous did not see as much evidence of openly gay couples as he may have in larger cities. Everyone wanted to live the white- picket fence life. 

00:23:43	Question: It seems like you have a lot of support in Community Theater, how has that played a role in your coming out process? Answer: Community Theater is Anonymous’s outlet, and where he has made most of his friends. He still didn’t feel comfortable with them, even though many are LGBTQ. They are welcoming and accepting, it just took him longer. Anonymous goes out on Sunday mornings with community theater people. Anonymous didn’t have friendships like that until after the divorce. He never had independent friends, except for those in Madison, and there was too much distance. 

00:26:27	Question: You wrote a lot about your relationship with the church, do you want to speak more about that? Answer: As of now, Anonymous does not go to church. It does not mind him much. Anonymous remembers going to church, but would just play pool in the basement. He didn’t learn anything until after he got married. He learned that church helps a lot of people deal with the struggles of life. 

00:28:35	Question: Do you think the churches in the area are supportive of the LGBTQ?
	Answer: Anonymous thinks most of them are. He thinks there may be some that just don’t address the issue. They used to go to an accepting church downtown whose pastor’s brother was gay. Certain pastors may steer a gay person to abstinence, but Anonymous isn’t sure. Anonymous first allowed his wife to decide where they would go. 

00:30:47	Question: In your coming out, how has the relationship with you and your wife been?  Answer: Anonymous states that the relationship has been fine. His wife still struggles with depression, but so does he. There has not been anyone that has not been supportive. Anonymous may have some coworkers he would not come out to. A few people in his previous job would say some hurtful things about gay people. Some of Anonymous’s ex-wife’s friend may have not been very supportive. 

00:33:36	[no question] Anonymous has been dating, and there are very few people around his age that are datable. He has been dating some younger men. Anonymous has come across some of their friends that see him as an old pervert or a creep.

00:35:11	Question: How would you describe the LGBT dating scene in the area? Answer: Anonymous believes there are different kinds of dating, but says it is better if you are younger. Anonymous would like to find someone similar to him with children and established in their careers. Majority of Anonymous’s dating is done online. A lot of the older people in the area are heavy smokers, or heavy drinkers, or have something else. Anonymous believes chemistry is necessary. 

00:37:25	[no question] Anonymous has had three long term relationship since divorcing. All of the men he has dated since have been college aged. One gentleman he dated for a year and a half, and they had a good relationship, but Anonymous wanted to explore other people. Anonymous then dated another man that was not enrolled in college, and just wanted to start a family. Anonymous discussed being a foster parent with him. The third guy Anonymous met was speaking with Anonymous for a while. This gentleman met another guy, and Anonymous said he didn’t need to date just one person. Anonymous just took a new job, and his kids are top priority right now.  

00:42:38	Question: How have your kids been through your dating? Answer: Anonymous says that his children have been fine. The first man Anonymous began dating, his kids really didn’t know. He would meet up with someone after the kids are in bed, or when they were with his wife. The second guy would sleep over. Neither one of Anonymous’s kids is dating now, but he sometimes worries about them. One of his sons seems like him, he worries that they are going to come to him and say he messed them up. 

00:46:54	[no question] There is no GSA at the high school that Anonymous knows of. He was worried about their grades, but they have seemed to be fine. 

00:47:25	Question: Have they told any of their friends about their parents? Answer: They have told their friends about the divorce, but isn’t sure about him being gay. Some of Anonymous’s older son’s friends know he is gay, but they are not the closest friends. One of his friends was going to come out when Anonymous was about to. 

00:49:09	[no question] Anonymous wants to open up more to his older son. He wants to show him which websites he goes on, but doesn’t want to mess him up. He doesn’t want to embarrass himself or his son.

00:50:39	Question: Do you feel like the younger generation is more open?  Answer: Anonymous does think the younger crowd knows a lot more, and doesn’t think it is a big deal. In general, some kids treat sex as if it is nothing, but Anonymous knows it is. Anonymous wants to encourage his kids to not treat sex too casually, but also wants them to not be afraid of anything.  
00:53:12	Question:  Do you feel like schools in the area teach about LGBTQ issues?  Answer: Anonymous thinks so, but thinks they probably don’t get into too much depth. About a year and a half ago, a middle school student committed suicide. People thought that he was potentially going to come out, and they addressed bullying and that situation. As a parent, Anonymous has not seen many resources in newsletters. In general, schools seem to be doing a pretty good job. Most students are talking about it with friends now, but schools could send stuff to parents. 

00:56:16	[no question] The school that Anonymous’s kids attend does not have a GSA, but there has been talk to start one. They have to assess how much they need one.

00:57:53	Question: What resources are there in the area?  Answer: Anonymous mentions the LGBT Community Center that used to exist. Anonymous mentions the AIDS Resource Center where you can get free testing and condoms. The counselors are very supportive. According to Anonymous, PRIDE is around, but not prevalent outside of the LGBT community. The VolumeOne Magazine features stories related to LGBT. Anonymous mentions that there are people in town that wrote the book Ready or Not, You’re Gay, and one bar downtown. Anonymous thinks that the older LGBT people need to be the resources. 

01:02:00	Question: How would you describe the LGBTQ community in the area?  Answer: Anonymous mentions that there are groups. You may know someone, but may not know them personally. The community is not cohesive. There are LGBT business men and the college crowd. There are some people that just don’t think it is a big deal, and others that are inviting. One gentleman hosts a Christmas party at his house. Anonymous mentions that there are scary people that use others or kids, and will do whatever. Some people are hooked on drugs and alcohol, but same with straight community. The LGBT community is getting more visible. 

01:06:05	Question: How do you describe your relationship with the LGBTQ community?  Answer: Anonymous would like to be more involved in it to help others. Anonymous will be online and chat with someone who needs to talk. Anonymous is not at the point where he would sit downtown at a festival and hand out LGBT brochures. Anonymous fears running into someone or potentially losing a job because of his involvement with the community. He hopes to find someone, but plans to move away to a larger community at some point. 

01:12:05	Question: Do you think there is stigma attached to being gay and raising children?  Answer: Anonymous has not have had personal experience with it, but hears stuff about it. Anonymous mentions that you can write your own contract for hospital visitation, but can’t file joint taxes. He states that there should be a different word other than marriage, and thinks we should give that word to the churches. 

01:14:18	Question: How do you think the area is in supporting gay marriage or gay adoption?
	Answer: Anonymous doesn’t see it in local press, but sees some stuff on Facebook. He knows some friends that have adopted and some that want to. Anonymous believes that some churches will be okay with it. The community is generally accepting, and the friends he knows all accept things. 

01:16:56	Question: How do you see the town, or the Midwest fitting in the national gay movement?  Answer: Eau Claire is probably behind a bit, and the bigger cities are probably better. Anonymous says that it is probably conservative, but seems to be good now. Some cities are more accepting than others.

01:18:12	Question: Would you like to be in a big city?  Answer: Anonymous would like to have his house in a big city, but would like to get out of yard work. Anonymous would move to a place like Minneapolis or Phoenix that have more dating opportunities or prospects for him. There are many events in Eau Claire, and the cost of living is low. 

01:20:02	Question: This is backtracking to when you were talking about jobs. Do you worry about job discrimination? Answer: Anonymous does worry about it, but doesn’t think it would be blatant. He was laid off in March because he wasn’t being utilized. He worries that maybe they knew he was visiting dating websites, but he isn’t confident. 

01:23:32	Question: What has been your relationship with mental health and your sexuality?  Answer: As Anonymous was coming out, he had a lot of depression and anxiety. He and his wife went to a counselor for a while with his wife, and they went through the depression inventory. Eventually he went to see a regular doctor for some antidepressants. He wasn’t on them for a long time, and still had some periods. 

01:28:45	Question: Were you in this area during the AIDS crisis? Answer: Anonymous indicates that he was in Madison.

01:28:58	Question: How do you remember the AIDS crisis? Answer: Anonymous was probably in high school, and just thought that you shouldn’t have sex. He doesn’t really remember, but probably thought that if you were gay and had sex, you would get AIDS. Anonymous didn’t know anyone personality. They had AIDS memorial day, and went to the funeral of a friend of his whose partner died of AIDS, but back in the 80’s Anonymous doesn’t remember too much. Now, Anonymous indicates that it isn’t as prevalent as he thought it was. 

01:33:32	Question: What changes would you like to see in the future?  Answer: Nationwide Anonymous would like to see people not make a big deal out of who sleeps with whom in the churches or the government. He would like AIDS and STD’s to go away, and would like everyone to be nice. Anonymous wants people to feel comfortable with themselves in their lives. He would like to see gay marriages easier and adoption easier. Also, Anonymous would like to see no more bullying.
01:36:12	Question: Is there anything else you would like to say?  Answer: Tiffany asks to chime in quickly.

01:36:21	Question: Did you come out to anyone else in your family?  Answer: He came out to everyone, and didn’t come out to anyone until he announced they were divorcing. He didn’t know what was going to happen. He came out to one sister before then, and came out to an older gay couple that he had to come out to. Everyone could see that his ex and he weren’t getting along well, and everyone responded fine. One teacher told him not to be afraid to march to the beat of his own drum, and probably could have guessed he was gay. 

01:41:56	Question: Was LGBT education not prevalent while you were going to school?  Answer: Education was not known in middle school or high school. Liberace was gay or scary leather people were gay when he was in school. During college he lived at home, and didn’t get much experience at home. After discovering Community Theater, then he was more exposed. 

01:45:26	Question: You said something about the foster parent option; could you expand on that a bit more?  Answer: Midwest Conference in Minneapolis that addressed many issues like bullying, fertility, etc. Anonymous knows the options are out there, but it isn’t discussed too much. There a lawyers who know what to do. 

01:48:26	Question: Are open relationships more accepted in the LGBTQ community?
	Answer: Anonymous thinks so. They can recognize the difference between love and sex.  They can recognize differences between open relationships. When Anonymous was dating the younger people, he felt that he would have to give them the option of an open relationship.

01:50:08	Question: What differences have you seen between the generations of the LGBTQ community?  Answer: Anonymous thinks a lot of it depends if they have had relationships before and how long they have been out. The older generation is looking for more stability. The younger people still deal with insecurities, and might not know exactly what they are doing. 

01:52:27	Question: You mentioned Q2, do you know what that is, and could you expand a little on that?  Answer: Anonymous knows it is a youth group that stands for Queer and Questioning, which is moderated by slightly trained older people. He isn’t sure what they do, but they meet on Thursdays and talk. 

01:53:45	Question: How do you feel the relationship with the LGBT community is with the straight community is here in Eau Claire?  Answer: Anonymous thinks that it is fine, but is still scared to be out in front of coworkers because he does not want to embarrass anyone. 

01:54:28	Question: Could you expand on what those 5 segments were on the news?  Answer: They were featured episodes about the LGBT community. One episode focused on Dee Lovely, but can’t remember too much about it. Anonymous thinks it was well received.

01:56:03	Question: Do you know of any other AIDS resources?  Answer: There is the one he mentioned, and a Planned Parenthood. There is probably something on campus. 

01:57:02	End of First Interview Session

End of Oral History #1335