UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #1026
CLIFTON, KELLY H.

CLIFTON, KELLY H. (1927-)
Professor Emeritus of Oncology, School of Medicine and Public Health
At UW: [as student] 1950-1955; [as faculty] 1959-1996

Interviewed: 	2008-2009 (5 sessions)
Interviewer: 	William Clifton
Index by: 	Stephen A. Pierce
Length: 	9 hours, 9 minutes

Abstract: In his five 2008-2009 interviews with William Clifton, Kelly H. Clifton discusses his career in radiation biology and oncology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison from the 1950s to the late 2000s.  He provides a detailed account of what interested him in biological science, his mentors and major influences, and how he came to UW as a student and then member of the faculty.  He recounts his work at UW and also in Tanzania, Sweden and Japan.  He provides insight on his research and on a number of important personalities in the history of UW’s Medical School.  This interview was conducted for inclusion into the UW-Madison Oral History Program.

Key Words: Spokane WA; the Depression; Oberlin College; Anaconda Copper Mining Company; Lolo National Forest; University of Montana; Ludvig Browman; University of Wisconsin-Madison; endocrinology; genetics; Roland K. Mayer; Mayre Lee Clifton; Badger Village; Lawrence “Larry” Graber; Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation (WARF); Jacob Furth; Dana-Farber Cancer Research Center; Jimmy Fund; Karl Paul Link; radiobiology; Biocore; Milton Yatvin; Dar es Salaam, Tanzania; Department of Radiology; Harland Mossman; American Cancer Society; Lásló Révész; oxygen effect; Karolinska Institute; department of human oncology; Atomic Bomb Casualty Commission (ABCC); Radiation Effects Research Foundation (RERF); Sigma Xi (the Scientific Research Society); divisional committee; UW System merger; Donna Shalala; Michael Gould; Randy Jirtle; Jack Fowler; Frederick “Rick” Domann; Atomic Energy Commission (AEC); graduate students; BEIR V.

First Interview Session (December 6, 2008): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:27	Question: Talk about your childhood and early years. Answer: Clifton was born in 1927 in Spokane WA, the youngest of 6 children.

00:02:02	[no question] Clifton talked about attending public schools in Spokane attended by a diverse cross section of socio-economic backgrounds. 

00:03:24	[no question] He explained the position of his family in the community—his father was senior partner in a prominent construction company. During the Depression, this led a number of family members to live with the family for prolonged periods. He also explained how his parents met at Oberlin College.

00:06:39	Question: Did the previous generation have college education? Answer: He did not think so, but related anecdotes about the pioneer history of his maternal (great-) grandparents (his grandfather was a druggist and physician). One set of grandparents had actually lived in Madison for a time, which he only discovered later. This grandfather, he thought, was either self-educated or had gotten training past HS.

00:13:42	Follow up: So what family influences affected your decision to go on for education? Answer: He attributed it to the assumption that all his siblings would finish college; he shared anecdotes about his brother and sister attending Oberlin; one sister attending USC; and his mother majoring in chemistry at Oberlin.

00:17:15	Question: Other influences? Answer: He recalled being fascinated by animals, sharing a story about feeding a kitten against the family rules, convincing his mother to be allowed to keep it, and the cat becoming famous for its well-trained beautiful litters of kittens. He recalled seeing some of these kittens actually being born.

00:22:38	[no question] He also related how the family spent 4 month of the year at Lolo National Forest where his grandfather had become president of a lumber company connected with Anaconda Copper Mines. 

00:27:24	[no question] Continuing with his story about Lolo National Forest, he explained the isolation of the location during the Depression, the family’s vacation properties on Seeley Lake at the edge of the lumber forests, and being neighbors with Norman Maclean’s family. 

00:32:11	[no question] Continuing describing his Lolo National Forest experiences, he talked about the animals there--cayuse horses and dogs—and shared a number of anecdotes about his dog Twinkles. Each sibling, he related, was allowed to have several dogs as long as they committed to take care of them.

00:42:50	[no question] Clifton continued to reminisce about how his dog became well-known, since dogs were allowed to roamed free and Twinkles often came to school with him. He also reminisced about carrying the Saturday Evening Post for extra money during school in order to buy a horse. He explained how his horse was chosen and sold.

00:49:57	[no question] He explained how having animals all around and reading Ernest Thomas Seton interested him in biology and outdoor life.  He quipped that he wanted to be a cross between Tarzan and Dr. Doolittle, but at the time wasn’t at all interested in medicine.

00:53:59	[no question] Clifton talked about 4-H clubs, quipping about an insect collection that got destroyed at the county fair and knowing more biology than his school teachers. He regretted that many science teachers today have inadequate training.

00:56:47	Question: Were your interests encouraged? Answer: He recalled how his mother helped the children with their homework, and related an anecdote about how even when his father’s didn’t understand his interests, he still encouraged him.

01:00:11	[no question] He continued to talk about his HS science classes, with which he was not impressed. Follow up: So you were self-trained? Answer: He laughed, supposing this was a generous way to put it and sharing an anecdote about encouraging a neighbor girl’s interest in rats.

01:04:20	[no question] He related the story of one uncle who had wanted to be a biologist, but the family pressured him to become an engineer. This showed how important it was that the family allowed him to go into medicine.

01:06:05	[no question] Clifton talked about his military service in the Coast Guard, quitting school to sign up for the Coast Guard during his senior year of HS. He did this because he wanted to go to sea. He also recounted his brother Jack’s service superintending a huge construction job on Guam.

01:10:52	[no question] On a side note, Clifton observed that while his family wasn’t “militaris-tic,” each of the men in his family had served, though only one was a “real military person.” This heritage meant that he knew he’d serve in the military, and thus he chose the Coast Guard for its cadet’s program (which was subsequently closed).

01:16:18	[no question] After boot camp, he continued, he was fortunately able to get into radio operator’s school, which kept him separate from the “Spokane guys” and allowed him time to read and think and get interested in genetics. He talked about corresponding with a geneticist about how to prepare for a career in genetics.

01:20:02	[no question] He explained how, after WWII, he was discharged as the wartime Coast Guard downsized to fit back into pre-war budgets under the Treasury Dept. When he returned home, he was beginning a relationship with his wife-to-be and he learned that his father was dying, so he went to the University of Montana (instead of Oberlin) in order to be close to home.  This, he noted, was extremely fortunate because he got more interested in endocrinology under Ludvig Browman.

01:25:10	[no question] Continuing to talk about his training at UMT, Clifton talked about, through Browman’s help, getting a teaching assistantship as a sophomore in college and doing an independent study with Browman. During this independent study, he was able to learn the intricacies of doing surgery on rats.

01:30:28	[no question] He related how Browman helped him choose a graduate school, or rather a person with whom he’d like to work. So he applied to 7 schools, and got accepted by all of Browman’s suggestions—he chose to come to UW, where R. K. Mayer was doing exciting work.

01:36:10	End of First Interview Session

Second Interview Session (December 12, 2008): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:00	[no question] Clifton talked about some contextual details that changed his life—getting married to his wife Mayre Lee before leaving UMT and also being assigned to an attack transport in the Coast Guard when the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima.

00:03:51	Question: Did being married change your opportunities? Answer: He said that they both presumed that he was going to move on to an advanced degree, quipping that they had very little adjustment to get used to married life and describing their first small apartment. He also noted that being on the GI Bill allowed the two to continue to be at UMT while being married for that last year.

00:07:46	Question:  Did you get a graduate assistantship? Answer: He reviewed applying, at the advice of Browman, directly to faculty members at grad schools, and being aware of research assistantships. R. K. Mayer offered him first a WARF-funded assistant-ship, and then a research assistantship. He discussed Mayer’s credentials and their trip to Madison.

00:13:09	Question: What about Mayer drew you to UW? Answer: Clifton said that Mayer worked with steroid hormones and had made major contributions to the function of progesterone. He felt fortunate because he arrived at just the right time in Mayer’s inquiries (when he was keeping a large group of rats on estrogen whose supervisor decided to take a summer off). 

00:18:36	Question: You took care of the animals? Answer: Yes; he explained the experiment in more detail, tracing the size of tumors over time in the pituitary gland. He was able to figure out which cells gave rise to the tumors and that the tumors secreted a particular hormone that was instrumental in sterility.

00:23:39	Follow up: More about the assistantship? Answer: Clifton discussed the purpose of the assistantships, as well as the collegiality of his fellow graduate students working in the lab. He explained how Mayre Lee worked in Bascom Hall for A. W. Peterson and used to come and visit him during lunch and in the evenings.

00:28:30	Follow up: Were you living near campus? Answer: Clifton observed that his mother hadn’t informed him that he had relatives in Madison until after he’d decided where he’d go to graduate school. He quipped about “getting orders” to call these relatives (the Grabers) as soon as they arrived in town. He recounted their first meeting with the Grabers. 

00:31:47	[no question] He then explained that having seen Badger Village on their way to Madison, where they intended on living, they were appalled by conditions there and agreed to come live with the Grabers for their first summer.

00:38:48	[no question] Continuing to talk about how the Grabers helped them find housing, he described an apartment on Lathrop Street in Madison where they lived after that first summer. After the year in that apartment, Frankie Graber died and Larry asked the couple to move back into their house on a more business-like arrangement.

00:45:22	Follow up: So he was still at UW? Answer: Yes; Clifton noted that Graber was the one who indoctrinated him with the Wisconsin Idea, sharing anecdotes about Graber’s career as part of UW Extension, convincing county farmers of the utility of new techniques of farming.

00:48:13	[no question] Clifton detailed how Graber came to be known as “Mr. Alfalfa,” chronicling the difficulties of traditional grasses and experimentation that was done using alfalfa bred for the northern parts of Wisconsin.

00:53:23	Follow up: What is the Wisconsin Idea for you? Answer: He thought Graber’s work made him aware of how important the university could be to the state, through the information it made available. He loved the idea of WARF and contributions by such diverse people as poets to agricultural engineers, Americans to Indians. 

00:57:06	[no question] He recalled how Graber would talk to people all over the state about what was important to them, using the example of notifying farmers of the different quality of different seeds. While this caused problems initially, it worked to the point where seed companies paid him to check and certify their seed.

01:01:37	Follow up: Talk about his approach to people. Answer: Clifton told a number of stories about the kind of rapport Graber could generate with common people, partly through his speaking style and partly through his understanding of rural people.

01:07:54	[no question] He emphasized how strongly Graber felt about athletics as an entrée to conversation with people—particularly football and boxing, which dwindled as a college sport over time.

01:11:43	[no question] Clifton talked about how Graber decided, after some time on the faculty at UW, to get his master’s and PhD. Some received this well, and others not—as a move to “lord it over them.”

01:14:18	[no question] He explained why he got a master’s degree when most Mayer students just went on for a PhD—due to the fact that a master’s would give him more credibility in fellowship competitions Mayer wanted him to apply for. He recounted why this extra funding was important for married students and described some of their financial position in those early years.

01:20:37	Follow up: So the assistantship didn’t pay tuition? Answer: It converted you to in-state tuition, but didn’t cover health insurance. But he said there wasn’t a need for it.

01:22:03	[no question] Clifton talked about the group of graduate students he worked with, partly because so many were veterans. He said they helped one another.

01:23:54	[no question] He also talked about how a private institution in Madison was the center of providing clean experimental rats to laboratories.

01:29:00	Follow up: The master’s thesis? Answer: He quipped about how his master’s degree was accepted in his first year, so he was able to get a three-year fellowship working with Mayer. He said he and Mayer weren’t close, because Mayer didn’t have close relationships with his graduate students, with a few exceptions.

01:35:47	Follow up: Mayer was the connection with Upjohn? Answer: Yes; he thought about half of Mayer’s serious students went to commercial research, a number to Upjohn.

01:36:53	End of Second Interview Session

Third Interview Session (January 11, 2009): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:44	Question: Tell your story about Larry Graber. Answer: Clifton shared an anecdote about how Graber maintained trust with the public, purposely avoiding the appearance of getting entangled with commercial seed companies.

00:04:42	Question: Talk about your doctoral research. Answer: He explained that his thesis was based upon observations that rats treated with large doses of estrogen would develop pituitary tumors. By what he thought was good fortune, both he and Mayer thought this development was linked with the normal operation of the glandular system—the normal secretion of some hormone.

00:11:48	[no question] Continuing to talk about his doctoral research, he explained how he had to account for whether other pituitary hormones were affected by the estrogen. He then explained how he narrowed down prolactin-producing cells as cells that were affected by the estrogen. 

00:19:44	[no question] Continuing to talk about breakthroughs in his doctoral research, he noted that he began to question how they were analyzing the growth of the tumors.

00:23:23	[no question] After having written his dissertation, he said, Mayer heard a presentation by Jacob Furth (at a time, he noted, when postdoctoral fellowships were not as common) and suggested that he take a postdoc with him at Dana-Farber Cancer Research centers. He explained Furth’s pathbreaking research with inbred mice.

00:33:36	[no question] He discussed a number of cancer research institutes in Boston MA, as well as how the Jimmy Fund was started to raise money to enlarge the cancer research wing of Children’s Hospital in Boston.

00:38:00	[no question] He noted that after three years, having never intended to stay in a research institute, he decided to leave Dana-Farber. Follow up: Had you been doing teaching? Answer: Yes; at UMT, he’d been a lab assistant and an assistant with Dr. Mayer.

00:42:30	[no question] He continued the story, observing that he’d written Mayer after 3 years that he was interested in a university position. About a week later, he received a phone call from the Dean of the Medical School to come interview for a position in Radiology, because the School wanted to establish a program in radiation biology. 

00:44:37	[no question] He discussed as an aside the growing field of radiation biology at a time when radioactive material wasn’t widely used in experimental biology. He explained how he’d had some experience as a student with this field, and had even got a radioactivity counter for his work.

00:49:05	[no question] Continuing to discuss his interview at UW’s School of Medicine, he recounted the trip through a major storm to get to Chicago and Madison and not having anyplace to stay the night (but realizing he still had a key to the Graber’s house). After explaining that he wasn’t a radiation biologist, the school still made an offer for them to come.

00:53:46	Question: What were salaries like at UW at the time? Answer: In 1959, he was making $9000/year; and when he was a graduate student, the highest salary on campus was around $12,000/yr. They discussed debates going on for years about whether faculty salaries were too high.

00:58:33	Question: So the Med School wanted a radiation biology dept? Answer: No; they needed a faculty to teach residents radiation biology in order to prepare them for boards that were quickly incorporating radiation biology questions. He went on to explain how he and two others designed a graduate program in radiation biology.

01:02:25	Question: This was all pre-tenure for you. Answer: Clifton noted that he got tenure in 4 years, after which he got involved in Biocore (1967). 

01:04:33	Question: Talk about the animals you used. Answer: Clifton discussed how Jackson Laboratories in Maine was considered the “mouse genetics capital of the world,” with over 100 all-inbred strains of mice for researchers. But his experiments did not always require inbred rats, which Sprague-Dawley had pioneered here in Madison. But he also discussed the national breeding scene.

01:10:58	Question: Did faculty in radiation biology increase? Answer: Yes; radiation physics could do many practical things in oncology, so they increased quickly, though radiobiology grew more modestly.  He talked about hiring Milton Yatvin in 1963.

01:12:30	[no question] After hiring 3 faculty, he noted, momentum grew. He observed that when Biocore was created by Joe Wilson and Jim Crow, he warned that it might be a threat to Medical School faculty and suggested he (not a threat to anyone) be brought in to run it.

01:16:38	[no question] Continuing to talk about Biocore, he discussed how he recruited faculty and put together a committee. Follow up: Was a wide cross-section of UW represent-ted on the committee? Answer: Yes; initially Med School science faculty were most enthusiastic, not because there was additional funding, but because it would attract the best students from around the university. He noted that Chancellor liked the idea of Biocore and supported it with equipment and space.

01:21:22	[no question] Continuing to talk about Biocore, he explained the courses that they started with, all of which were team-taught, to the extent that even lectures were reviewed in groups. Follow up: In sequence? Answer: Yes; faculty members taught their specialty, with his been reproductive biology.

01:25:03	Follow up: This started in 1967? Answer: Yes; the first Biocore course was cellular biology, the second organismal biology, and the third population biology. He quipped about some eminent scholars they were able to get teach in the population biology course—John Robinson, Stan Beck, and others.

01:32:41	[no question] Continuing to talk about Biocore, which was supposed to be a ½ time appointment, he recalled that because the job took up so much time the department decided to advance him to full professor in 1967.

01:36:31	Question: Your work in Africa? Answer: He talked about how a friend of his at the Jimmy Fund invited him to join a large group of scientists and educators going to Dar es Salaam in 1966 to review the way science curriculum was taught to Africans of very different cultural backgrounds. He explained the disjuncture between British-authored science texts and the African experience.

01:43:53	[no question] Continuing to talk about his work in Tanzania, he recounted how tensions between Nyerere and US politicians caused there to be no embassy there in 1966, but how a large group of scientists and teachers were going there. He reviewed the Med School dean’s discomfort about his going to do this over the summer (without pay), but the chancellor’s strong support of his going (with pay).

01:48:58	Follow up: How long were you there? Answer: He said they took one weekend trip to a new game-park, but otherwise stayed in Dar es Salaam and surrounding villages. He discussed his work on how to teach children about the generation of the local house-fly. He noted that he realized they’d succeeded when children were able to identify the life-cycle on tests they gave them.

01:53:52	[no question] Continuing to talk about his work in Dar es Salaam, he related an anecdote about one scientist’s teaching about standardization and measurement using scales, and the cleverness of the local children in substituting sand for water. He also told an anecdote about how little connection was made between the textbooks and the lived reality of children’s day-to-day environment.

01:58:50	End of Third Interview Session

Fourth Interview Session (February 22, 2009): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:22	Question: People in the department? Answer: Clifton discussed the state of the department of radiology when he arrived, which included 3 diagnostic radiologists, a residency program and a radiation oncologist. He noted that the US at the time was the leader in surgical treatment of cancer, but not radiology, which led officials to encourage radiation biology in the 1960s. He was recruited partly to help residents pass the radiation biology part of their boards, but also to create a new branch of radiation oncology.

00:04:30	[no question] He observed that a year before hiring him, the department had hired John Cameron, a talented physicist who applied physical technology to radiation oncology and diagnostic radiology. He talked about some of Cameron’s achievements before dying at a young age.

00:06:54	[no question] He talked about the diagnostic radiologists, Drs. Paul and Juhl, who had writing a diagnostic radiology text that continued to be the standard for many years.

00:09:37	[no question] He talked about the level of independence that was granted to teaching faculty, and the collegiality he found being a biologist in a clinical department. He also reviewed his help in labs and his teaching and research with one of his close colleagues, Harland Mossman. 

00:15:15	[no question] Clifton discussed getting support for his first round of research from the local branch of the American Cancer Society, which often sponsors small beginning grants. He described the tools he needed to do this research, including some animals he brought with him from Boston. 

00:17:20	[no question] He related how he became interested in working on some of the issues being dealt with by Halvor Vermund, a young radiation oncologist at UW. But he came to the conclusion after some experimentation that their approach was too aggressive, so he developed a transplantation assay system which actually identified the major problem in dosage response, etc. This experience in radiation oncology was dissatisfying, so he decided to take a year leave of absence.

00:23:29	[no question] He moved to talk about some UW scientists who were highly influential for him—R. K. Mayer, “the one who gave me the keys to the toy store” and who was key in him coming back to UW.

00:27:56	[no question] Clifton talked about his wife Mayre Lee’s work in the offices of A. W. Peterson, vice president for business and finance at UW, which allowed he and his wife to know the inner workings of the university.

00:31:35	[no question] With his wife’s salary and his GI Bill for the first 2 semesters, they survived well at first. Then, he observed, R. K. Mayer arranged for a research assistantship for him, reviewing how he got his masters to qualify for this grant.

00:33:58	[no question] Continuing to talk about colleague who had treated them well, he returned to talking about his relationship with Jacob Furth, with whom he had a very close personal relationship, and Larry Graber.

00:35:04	[no question] Returning to discuss the radiology department, he talked about how his trip to Tanzania affected his return to Madison. He spoke about his desire to get a monkey and a parrot, but being apprehensive about how the birds were usually acquired. He then related putting an ad in the local English newspaper, naming the parrot Kasuku (Swahili for “parrot”), and getting the parrot back to the US. He quipped about Kasuku’s hatred for women and children and told other anecdotes about the politics of keeping him in the laboratory.

00:48:42	[no question] He went on to talk about getting support from the American Cancer Society for his long-term research project after the short-term grant expired, but also got supplementary grants from the Department of Energy and National Cancer Institute. He felt fortunate to have worked in a period in which interest in cancer and radioactive effects on health.  These grants allowed him to go on as little as 10% University-paid salary at times.

00:52:53	Follow up: Who else was on the grants? Answer: He said that he usually had 1-3 students or postdocs working with him, preferably graduate students. Follow up: Why? Answer: He said it was fun to watch the transformation of a person who’d never done research into a university-level researcher.

00:55:34	[no question] He returned to talking about Biocore, reviewing his suggestion to Jim Crow to be brought on as chairman to deflect criticism from the Med School. He reflected that it was this collegiality among UW faculty that had kept him here for many years.

01:00:21	[no question] He reflected again on how Biocore is often taught by faculty from the Med School who had little experience with undergraduates; his own desire to only lead it temporarily, and his move to a new research program.

01:03:00	[no question] He discussed his interest in a new project on the effects of oxygenation being conducted by Lásló Révész at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm. He detailed the structure of this project and how Révész invited him to come and work in Chance’s lab.  But because UW has no regular system of sabbaticals—faculty can get support and leave time, but it isn’t regularized—he had to apply to the National Cancer Institute for funding to go to Stockholm and do this project.

01:13:14	[no question] Continuing to chronicle his work in Sweden, he noted that when he got there, the equipment hadn’t arrived. After doing some other experiments, in the last 5 months of his year, the equipment arrived, only for him to discover there was a fatal flaw in it. Thus in terms of his original plan, the year was a failure, but it had allowed him time to think about his research program, which was completely different by the time he returned to UW.

01:18:00	[no question] Clifton described the observation on which the rest of his research was based. Though UW had one of the country’s best biochemistry department, he was nagged by their methodology which included treating a tissue with a carcinogen or radioactive material and then analyze it biochemically looking for carcinogenesis. He was uneasy about this because he didn’t think that cells from which cancers derived represented a very high fraction of a tissue’s cells. His theory was that a system was needed to measure the numbers of cells from which cancers arise—one’s susceptible to cancer—and know many of them are affected by radiation exposure, etc.

01:23:11	[no question] From this hypothesis about the first step in the cancer process, he said, he developed transplantation systems in rats, starting with tissues that are hormonally controlled to maximize the effect of the experiment. He detailed the experiment, which built on his previous research and showed that the first step of cancer happened commonly by low doses of radiation but often didn’t get pushed further.

01:35:55	[no question] He said that his National Cancer Institute grant working on this project went from 25-27 years, and the last period was a 5-year grant that he didn’t have to apply for renewals on.

01:37:59	Follow up: Did students get first-author status on journal articles? Answer: Clifton said he felt similarly to R. K. Mayer—if a student came up with the idea, they were the senior researcher. He had been criticized at times for being too generous. Follow up: What was the impact of that? Answer: He said it never bothered him and gave students a feeling of accomplishment and better chances for promotion. Follow up: Any gain or loss for you? Answer: He didn’t think so.
 
01:45:04	End of Fourth Interview Session

Fifth Interview Session (April 15, 2009): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:20	Question: Talk about the late 1970s. Answer: Clifton reviewed starting out in the radiology department but eventually moving to a new human oncology department with broader responsibilities than just radiation therapy. He thought this merging of science, clinical experience and different approaches to cancer therapy was a good idea, though it lasted only several years, starting in 1975.

00:04:14	[no question] He explained his roles as a professor of human oncology; designing lab facilities for radiation biology in the new UW Hospital; and convincing planners to include animal space in the plans, with the help of a grant from the American Cancer Institute to build an extra module and ½ for animals.

00:08:05	[no question] He reviewed his decision to go to Sweden, and then talked about his invitation to be chief of research in Japan’s newly founded Radiation Effects Research Foundation, the successor to the Atomic Bomb Casualty Commission. He explained how following the creation of ABCC, negotiations between Japan and the Dept of Energy over greater Japanese financial cooperation and greater Japanese influence in decision making led to its transformation into RERF. He related Jim Crow’s involvement in this move and in Clifton’s involvement in RERF.

00:15:15	Follow up: ABCC researched both bomb sites? Answer: Yes; he didn’t know much about the structure of ABCC, but noted that RERF was the only foundation with its own treaty implementing 50%/50% US-Japanese funding; and Japanese directorship with an American chief of research. He described RERF upon his arrival, as well as the process of research reporting.

00:20:44	Follow up: What was the actual research? Answer: He said that the primary focus was epidemiological, with a massive life-span study of the 360,000 individuals from Nagasaki and Hiroshima starting in 1946 with bicycle surveys of the entire cities. He detailed the 3 study groups: 1) A large study-group (Lifetime Study) of 120,000 was chosen from the population and statistics from their cause of death were collected; 2) a smaller sub-group (the Adult Health Study) received more detailed medical examinations every 2 years, with problematic findings reported to the national government; 3) another sub-group studied women who were pregnant and their children—he explained how pregnant women were identified and how they were offered medical care for the remainder of the pregnancy and 1st year of the child’s life.

00:30:19	Follow up: Continue. Answer: Clifton further explained that the 3rd sub-group studied two groups—women pregnant when the bombs were dropped and women who had been irradiated and then later conceived. This latter study turned up no unusual evi-dence of damage to the children, though he admitted that the studies were somewhat superficial; but the study of the first group did turn up evidence of damage, especially dangerous for those in the 8th to 15th week of pregnancy. Damage was primarily to the central nervous system, depending on dosage of radiation.

00:37:29	[no question] Continuing to talk about RERF, Clifton reflected on the difficulties of maintaining scientific integrity in a project that you know won’t be finished in your lifetime. But he noted that the study was the foremost study of radiation effects in the world, integral to policy recommendations of limits of radiation exposure without fallout (unlike Chernobyl).

00:41:31	[no question] Continuing to talk about RERF, he reflected on his 2 ½ years (1980-82) at the foundation, observing that it stretched the adaptability of his wife and family but was a wonderful experience for her, editing a local English newspaper and being hired as the first foreigner to go into a major Japanese car manufacturer editing speeches and advertisements for the president of the company. He talked about how one of his 3 sons came with them and attended HS in Kobe.

00:48:15	[no question] Continuing to reflect on his time in Japan, he noted that it gave him a better feel for his own work and its broader contribution, and that he was then asked to lecture often on radiation effects for Sigma Xi. He opined that it was a lot cheaper to send students, artists, and scientists to do foreign exchange than it was to send guns, and wondered why UW didn’t have a stronger sabbatical system.

00:54:48	[no question] He discussed university service, talking about his involvement on the biological divisional committee following being on the graduate biology division, which could develop departmental requirements. He also served on the “congress of faculty” in the newly formed Merger system, and the University Committee chaired by Fannie LeMoyne, which was trying to convince the administration that faculty funding was grossly underbudgeted.

01:03:31	Follow up: You chaired what departments? Answer: He said he had a joint appointment in Pathology and Radiology, because Pathology wanted him to teach radioactive tracers to their residents. Thus he ended up chairing Pathology in order to replace a longtime chair and solve the problem of finding people to come to the Pathology department (precisely because he was senior but didn’t want to be chair).

01:11:56	Follow up: The search and screen committee for chancellor? Answer: Yes; he related the composition of the committee, their ability to keep their deliberations secret, and one person’s disagreement with the preferences of the committee. He related anecdotes about several of the interviewees, including his impressions of Donna Shalala from her interview. He explained why he enjoyed being on this committee, because of the friendships you were able to make across the university.

01:20:15	Question: Graduate students and postdocs? Answer: He explained that he didn’t have many graduate students, though he enjoyed them more than postdocs; and suspected he had around 13 graduate students. Follow up: Standouts? Answer: He listed Michael Gould (UW-Madison/McArdle).

01:22:19	[no question] As a side note, he said he was chair of the graduate program and noted that McArdle Labs faculty worried that radiology was trying to compete with them for students, which they did. He related the training grant they were able to get.

01:24:16	[no question] Continuing to talk about graduate students, he mentioned that Gould held the Kelly H. Clifton professorship; he then listed Randy Jirtle (Duke/Radiation Oncology), who worked on epigenetics and was awarded an honorary doctorate by the College of Engineering; Tim Mulcahy (UMN), who worked up the administrative ladder at UW and was Clifton’s best-organized student. 

01:33:00	Follow up: Others? Answer: He discussed some foreign students, such as Andy Kim, from Korea (Pusan National Univ.); Hiro Watanabe, who was recommended to him by an old friend from Boston who’d survived the bombing of Hiroshima.

01:38:16	Follow up: Jack Fowler? Answer: Fowler wasn’t in his lab, but Clifton was involved with him because he was part the committee allotting time for biological researchers on Berkeley’s accelerator. After directing a major British laboratory, Fowler was planning on going to Berkeley, but Clifton advised against it, because they were having a “knock-down, drag-out” at the time, and offered for him to come to UW without having any idea how he would pull it off. He applied for Fowler to come as a Brittingham scholar. He talked about Fowler’s gift of teaching and synthesizing.

01:45:15	[no question] Continuing to talk about graduate students, he talked about Rick Domann (UIowa/Radiation Biology); and his first graduate student Bill Summers, who was bored in zoology, but “took off” when presented with research in Clifton’s lab.  He eventually ended up at Yale.

01:53:27	Question: Your UMT award? Answer: He talked about being presented with an award at halftime of a homecoming game for being one of 5 greatest UMT graduates.

01:54:45	[no question] He said he felt fortunate to have only had 1 grant request turned down. He talked about this grant proposal for a graduate student who was studying the effect of bone marrow transplants on cancerous tissue. Though they won the original grant, the student “fell apart” and they weren’t able to get the renewal on the grant. 

02:02:48	[no question] He reflected on BEIR (Biological Effects of Ionizing Radiation) committees—he was on the fifth of this series (BEIR V) of committees of the National Research Council, which was based on the Hiroshima-Nagasaki data and other cohorts of data. It was a study of the overall risk of ionizing radiation in humans. He explained his contributions to the volume.

02:08:52	Follow up: Other organizations? Answer: He talked about editing Proceedings of the Society for Experimental Biology and Medicine, Cancer Research (the principle journal of the American Assn for Cancer Research), Radiation Research, in addition to being a peer reviewer and associate editor.  

02:11:40	End of Fifth Interview Session

End of Oral History #1026