UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #1088
STEAKLEY, JAMES “JIM”

STEAKLEY, JAMES “JIM” (1946-)
Professor, Department of German
At UW: 1977-

Interviewed: 	2010 (5 sessions)
Interviewer: 	Troy Reeves
Index by: 	Troy Reeves
Length: 	7 hours, 43 minutes 

Abstract: In his five June and August 2010 interviews with Troy Reeves, James “Jim” Steakley detailed his life through his interest in German and LGBT History and his life as a gay man. Steakley furnished his memories of his life from the mid-1950s to the late 2000s (with some comments on current (2010) events) and touched on the following topics: Germany, German history, Gay activism, UW—Madison German Department history & politics, and LGBT History—on campus and in Germany. This interview was conducted for inclusion into the Madison LGBT Community, 1960s-Present project within the UW-Madison Oral History Program’s general collection.

Key Words: Wiesbaden, Germany; Frankfurt, Germany; University of Chicago; gay rights; Cornell University; West Berlin, West Germany; New York, New York; Toronto, Canada; E. Berlin, East Germany; Madison, Wisconsin; UW—Madison; Department of German, UW—Madison; LGBT Studies, UW—Madison; Mosse, George; Martin, Elizabeth “Biddy”; UW—Madison TAA Strike, 1980; Shalala, Donna; UW—Madison ROTC.

First Interview Session (June 14, 2010): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:47	Question: Can you discuss your early (pre-UW Madison) years through the lens of your interest in German? Answer: Jim Steakley (JS) grew up in a military family; his family moved to Germany for his father’s new job when Steakley was 10. JS spoke of his naiveté both of foreign countries and languages. JS spent 4 years in Germany (1956-1960), and he attended an American military dependent school in Wiesbaden, Germany. 

00:06:57	[No question.] While in the Wiesbaden school, he only took one year of German in fifth grade. Americans were not supposed to fraternize with Germans, and JS noted the reason why and the reasons why they fraternized anyway. In Steakley and his brothers’ (one older and one younger) case, they found and played at the German swimming pool. JS learned little German while there. JS’ family felt rich there; they hired a maid, but they did not eat German food, except gummi bears. JS gave an example of how little German he could speak/understand, even when one of his maids tried to get him to learn it. He learned the alphabet because his father paid him for it.

00:14:38	[No question.] JS discussed his families’ (2 brothers and mom and dad) attitude towards Germany. His brothers have no interest in German. His father hated most everything, including Germans and Japanese, due to his WWII military service. His mother tried to take the opportunity, through a paid tutor, to learn the language. JS also noted how little German TV, movies, and music he encountered. 

00:19:25	[No question.] JS and his family returned to the U.S. in 1960; he recalled his first (re)taste of American culture while in a Canadian airport on their way home. When JS came back, he attended high school. For foreign language he took Latin for two years and German for two years. Again, he learned little German. He did note that his teacher was excellent; she taught two people, including JS, who went on to get Ph.Ds in German.

00:22:40	[No question.] JS went to college and did not need to take foreign language. He started in the sciences then moved to history. Advisors and others told him to be a historian he needed to take German. So, he entered into first year German, which even though he took two years of German in high school, turned out for the best. JS said the third time he took German was a charm. He described his teachers, who were Teaching Assistants, teaching styles. From one of those TAs, the German department offered him a scholarship to spend a summer in southern Germany, taking an intensive language course.

00:27:15	[No question.] JS described his summer in Germany, including his instructor and his fellow students, who attended from all over the world. JS lived with a German family, along with another student from Italy. JS offered examples of how much his German improved that summer, including reading the newspaper quickly and accurately and dreaming in German. 

00:31:00	[No question.] When JS returned from Germany, he switched his major to German. He recalled writing letters with his father to convince him about the change. JS offered an overview of his one year of college as a German major (JS’ senior year). One professor, Kenneth Northcott (sic?) really affected JS positively; he furnished examples of how Northcott’s teaching benefited him.

00:33:40	Question: Development of sexuality from early years to pre-UW-Madison? Answer: JS’s first sexual experience occurred while in Germany, although he realized before then that he wanted to look at boys’ and men’s bodies, not girls’ or women’s. He recalled being interested in looking at his three boy cousins’ bodies but not his one girl’s cousin body. JS noted that his mother had given him a “facts of life” book, which talked about sex very vaguely. JS got the book back after his parents’ died, which he found while cleaning up their house. 

00:38:40	[No question.] JS recalled his two sexual encounters, one with a German boy, the other with an American boy, while in Germany. He told a story about going to a friend’s house (another American living in Germany) to look at his friend’s sperm in a microscope. Also in Germany he befriended two classmates who (in retrospect) were gay.  

00:41:25	[No question.] While in high school, JS figured out that his interest and his activities made him gay, which he knew was unacceptable in society. JS never told his family about it, because he realized it would be a detriment. JS talked about non-conformity, as it pertained to his closeted status and about his experimentation in Germany did not follow him to the States. JS hung out with a boy student as much as he could, because he was attracted to him, but he never told him or acted on it.

00:45:10	[No question.] JS told two stories about this time period. He and his family visited his aunt (the one with the 3 male cousins); JS overheard a conversation between his mom and aunt about a town doctor, who his aunt called a “ferry.” JS knew that he wanted to share this doctor’s lifestyle. The other story involved JS get hit on by an African-American man while JS waited for his mother to pick him up from a Washington, DC, library. While a teenager in the metro DC area, JS found the “coded” gay sex advertisement in the local newspaper and found a gay magazine in one of the DC newspaper shops. JS found the magazine on eBay and offered an overview of its content.

00:50:34	[No question.] During high school JS either bought or borrowed the book, The Homosexual in America. JS has the book in his collection; he re-read a couple of pages in preparation for this interview and realized he had a false recollection of its content. JS talked about his false recollection and the book’s actual content on those pages. The book’s section detailed how difficult a gay man’s life was. This anecdote led JS to remember that Life Magazine also included an article in one issue, during JS’ high school age, about homosexuality in America. The picture it painted was grim. So to summarize his high school period, JS thought that being a homosexual meant no marriage, no kids, a lonely life, and an early death. JS then told two stories about his older brother: one involved his brother’s college extracurricular activity “rolling queers”; JS, in the other story, recalled fondling one of his brother’s overly drunk friends who had passed out on one of the family’s couches. JS did recall one other gay high school student; they knew of each other without verbalizing it.

00:56:40	[No question.] While in college (University of Chicago), JS came out to himself as gay. While still in closet to others, he began reading more (thanks to college library) about homosexuality. He also discovered gay bars in Chicago but did not go (too young). He recalled wishing there was some way to tell, such as something on one’s clothes, the gay folks on campus. For 3 years he knew no gays, but when he finally came out, he found out, as with junior and senior high school, he had been hanging out with gay men the whole time. His dorm was known on campus as where the gay men lived. 

01:00:45	[No question.] JS’s first college roommate was quite heterosexual, and JS spent a lot of time out of his room, while his roommate and his girlfriend had sex. So JS switched roommate to a young African American (Howard Ramseur) who JS found out later was gay. JS told a story about this roommate’s anger toward society for treatment of his roommate’s father, who played baseball in the Negro Leagues but had the talent to play in the (white) major leagues. After his first year, JS lived in a single room, meaning no roommate. As mentioned earlier JS received a summer scholarship to learn German in Germany. While there another American student, an older (25 years old) school teacher from Baltimore. During the summer this student chatted with JS and asked JS if he was gay. JS said no until the student mentioned he was, then JS said “yes.” While JS and the student did not hook up (the student had a boyfriend), the student did give JS advice and told him about a gay bar in Vienna, Austria. After the school and before JS returned to the states, he went to Vienna and that gay bar. After spending most of the evening there, he finally met someone. He spent the rest of his time in Europe with this man. 

01:08:22	[No question.] After that summer JS returned to University of Chicago for senior year. JS came out to friends and found another gay student on campus, including one who took him to a gay bar in Chicago. JS did not like gay bar, per se, but he did meet one man, who worked for Playboy, with whom JS had an affair. More important than that, he met 3 folks in Chicago who were active in an early gay rights group, the Mattachine Midwest Society. They all talked to him about gay rights and about the lynch pin Mattachine group in DC and its leader, Franklin Kamaney. Gay rights/liberation became quite important to JS, because of Vietnam & the draft. JS offered his thoughts on the draft system up to his senior year in college. By his senior year, graduate school deferments ended, meaning JS could be eligible for the military.

01:14:70	[No question.] The elimination of the graduate school deferment meant JS went back to Virginia (in his case Richmond) the summer of 1968 for his draft physical. JS was anti-war and knew he could be deferred by being gay. So his friends at Mattachine Midwest told him to meet Kamaney in DC. Kamaney told him to not only check the box noting “homosexual tendencies” but to get a notarized statement stating that he (JS) was gay. JS recounted the story of his draft physical day, including meeting with the doctor, who asked him about being gay. The one question the doctor asked that stood out with Steakley was “What role do you play?” Steakley told him that gays were versatile. The doctor marked him 4-F, so JS did not serve. (JS noted that his brother did not serve either, which made his military father upset. This led JS to talk about the cleaving of the World War II generation and Baby Boomers over Vietnam.)

01:18:49  	Question: Graduate school, as a German scholar and gay man. So, what graduate school and why? Answer: University of Chicago gave him a one-year scholarship to go to school in Germany (University of Frankfurt). He went to Frankfurt in 1968/1969. While there he applied to 5 schools; he chose Cornell, because he thought he could devote himself to his studies, i.e. “the least gay.” JS talked about his year in Frankfurt, reminding the interviewer that it was the year(s) of international rebellion. JS attended Frankfurt at the same time as Angela Davis. 

01:22:54	[No question.] JS talked about University of Frankfurt’s political reputation (leftist, anarchist), and JS came over aware of the student rebellion on college campuses in U.S. JS’s father warned him not to participate in political demonstrations. JS did participate cautiously in demonstrations, because he wanted to stay in Germany that year. (JS noted that the only time someone checked his passport was in a gay bar.) JS compared Illinois to Frankfort, West Germany in terms of gay rights (or lack of them).  

01:26:16	[No question.] JS said that the university was in chaos while he attended, with lots of demonstrations and strikes. In Germany they protested the old style university system, so they fought on anti-establishment grounds. He took only a few courses, because of the chaos. So, he got his education on the streets, in the dorms, and within the coffee shops. He befriended students from Spain and Czechoslovakia who informed about the strict political regimes of fascism & communism. JS spent the summer in Europe, so he missed Stonewall and Woodstock. He did spend the summer in Prague and watched the Moon Landing from there. Also in Germany JS found a German boyfriend. He spoke of their relationship, which he considered “important,” in terms of his personal growth.

01:31:40	[No question.] Steakley could have stayed in Europe on more than one occasion, but he always returned to the U.S. Steakley did note that within the Europe gay bar world, he did connect with those folks who had started to research gay studies history/research. As he noted before, he chose Cornell to focus on his studies. When he got to Cornell, he discovered Cornell had a gay rights groups, called the Gay Homophile League. It quickly changed its name to Gay Liberation Front (post Stonewall). He met many gay folks within the student group, in the German department, and other places (including a man from Madison, from whom JS later bought his first Madison home).  JS had a struggle at Cornell with one professor, who gave JS his only F grade. 

01:35:50	[No question.] Continuing discussion about Cornell, JS talked about being involved in the gay student newspaper and the new technology involved in it. (JS noted the Xerox Machine was introduced around this time.) JS and others also participated in a protest at Maury’s Bar in New York, because Maury did not want gays and lesbians in his bar and attacked gays and lesbians with a baseball bat once. He and others also participated in the first gay pride march, The Stonewall Parade, in the summer of 1970. He recalled his thoughts at the first march; “it blew his mind,” seeing that many gay people in one place. JS also helped set up gay dances on campus.

01:40:00	[No question.] In regards to his work in German in Cornell, he noted the myriad things that happened to his colleagues/cohorts. He offered an overview of what some of them ended up becoming post-Cornell. JS arrived at the same time as Professor Sandor Gelman (sic?), who JS described as a “wunderkind.” Gelman has written myriad books on German and medical history. Overall, JS felt his graduate educated, besides Gelman, lacked something. He argued that UW—Madison offered far more than Cornell in German. JS did note that after he left, Cornell hired better faculty, including current UW—Madison Chancellor Biddy Martin.

01:44:54	Question: Final thoughts before we end for the day? Answer: After a bit on second interview procedure, JS talked about the process at Cornell. They gave him his master’s degree after one year. JS applied for scholarship to go to Germany to study gay German literature. The U.S. folks approved it, but the German folks did not. So, he went to Berlin in 1971-72 on his “own dime.” JS will talk about that experience next time.

01:49:21	End of First Interview Session

Second Interview Session (June 16, 2010): Digital File

00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:35	Question: Do you want to comment on anything from the previous interview before continuing on with the narrative? Answer: Jim Steakley (JS) discussed the context of campus and the country during his time at Cornell, including the gay rights’ movement as one of the many social/cultural movements (women & African Americans to name two) on campus and in the country at that time. JS wanted the interviewer to know that when he came to Cornell he matriculated at an activist campus. 

00:04:55	[No question.] JS took part in a men’s consciousness raising group at Cornell, which formed as a response to the women’s rights and their consciousness raising group. He noted that he was the only gay man in the men’s consciousness raising group. When they changed the name of the gay rights’ group to Gay Liberation Front, they changed their slogan to a more radical, anti-establishment one. During this time period, most activists thought that either the government would change radically or the government would crack down on the students. JS thought the spirit of the times was “mighty good.” 

00:09:37	[No question.] Steakley’s brothers also became part of a radical student movement. This thought led JS to note that he had not came out to his parents or family yet. That came after his year in Berlin. With that note JS shifted his narrative to his year in Berlin. JS went to Berlin “infused” with Gay Liberation Front ideas. While JS had visited Berlin during his previous year in Germany, he would live there this time. And he was really looking forward to it, because it was a vibrant city. JS used his connections to his Frankfort friends to find housing in Berlin, which led to his interaction with the nascent gay liberation folks in Berlin. JS took this opportunity to offered an overview of the history of gay liberation/rights in Berlin & Germany, including how a movie and its public screening helped give birth to the movement.

00:15:11	[No question.] JS attended the second meeting of the Berlin gay liberation group, which allowed him to meet people who became leaders in the gay movement. JS kept those connections over time. JS entered an intense group of people (primarily a student group) who discussed politics and possible actions during their weekly meetings. This helped JS with his continued study of the language, as well as learning about German politics. JS also noted that he learned about Marxism and the two major groups (Lenin and Mao) during his time in Berlin. This Marxism ideology was quite different than the leftist and anarchists he met and hung out with in Frankfort.

00:19:50	[No question.] JS described how he became educated about Marxism. Steakley was not able to take the class on campus that everyone took to learn about Marxism (and capitalism). So, he attended two discussion groups, one led by his gay friends and another led by two faculty at the Free University in Berlin. JS gave the faculty folks’ names.  Both groups allowed to “get” Marxism and to see literature as a document that was embedded within history. In this section JS noted that he fell on the Lenin side of the Marxist debate for many reasons, including his new Berlin friends were Leninists and that he used his time in Berlin to help the gay movement by starting consciousness raising groups, like he attended at Cornell. 

00:26:19	[No question.] Steakley discussed his housing situation in Berlin, including initial living in the house of a German filmmaker whose film on homosexuality started the gay liberation movement in Germany. He then moved into a four-bedroom apartment with a gay man and two women. Finally, he moved into a two-bedroom apartment with a man in the consciousness raising group; this man became Steakley’s boyfriend for his year in Berlin, as well as for a few years after that. JS offered an overview of this boyfriend’s life and an overview of their relationship, including it being non-monogamous, which was an attack on traditional straight relationships. His year of Berlin was political and intellectually eye-opening and left him with life-long friends, who have stayed active in the gay movement in Berlin and Germany.

00:33:05	[No question.] Steakley again was asked by a boyfriend to stay in Germany, but he knew he had to return to the U.S. to continue his career track. While finished his time in Germany, JS started thinking about his dissertation topic. He found out that someone had just written on his first choice, Goethe’s court plays. So, while browsing through the library, he found a journal on gay life in Germany that detailed German life and literature. He took an idea of focusing on German gay literature to his dissertation advisor, who accepted it. And even though JS thought it might be risky, he decided to pursue it. 

00:37:03	[No question.] JS talked about his post-Berlin, Cornell roommate, Greg Lainey. They both became lynch-pins in the gay liberation movement at Cornell. Lainey was in London, while JS was in Germany, and JS talked about London’s gay movement and how it affected both of them when they returned to Cornell. JS reminded the interviewer that he had applied for a fifth year of funding through a fellowship, which the German government declined to fund. He talked about being a part of a national program, eliminated by President Nixon, which gave graduate students four years of funding in subjects vital to U.S. national security. The four-year model, while good in some ways, did not serve as a realistic funding model, and it still does not. JS used this thought to discuss the funding model at UW—Madison and the realistic length of time one can expect to finish a dissertation.  

00:45:20	[No question.] While at Cornell in 1973, JS attended one of the gay dances on campus (he helped run them there) and met a person from Canada. That person persuaded JS to move to Canada for the year. He discussed his year in Toronto, including Toronto’s vital gay liberation movement. JS noted that Toronto’s gay newspaper, the Body Politic, really moved the agenda well.  He also discussed meeting the person in charge in the gay bookstore, which served as another locale (along with gay bars) as a vital community meeting place. On the topic of gay bars, JS told about a newspaper person who left The Body Politic to start a free newspaper distributed at the gay bars. That effort led to similar papers in other Canadian cities. 

00:51:20	[No question.] JS discussed his work on his dissertation while in Canada. While in Berlin Steakley learned that literature needed historical context, so JS focused on writing up a history of German gay history, which The Body Politic published in five parts. JS noted that the articles were later published as a book. This work became the first detailed history of German gay history, making Steakley a pioneer. During his time in Toronto, JS applied for teaching jobs, but he got no interviews. He noted that his job search corresponded with a bleak job period, known to U.S. economic history as the Nixon Recession. 

00:56:05	[No question.] Steakley offered an answer to his own question, “Why New York City?” He noted the Visa issue, along with other issues, including getting fan mail—including one from the novelist Christopher Isherwood—regarding his German gay history piece from prominent gay folks in NYC. Three fans in particular, Richard Plant, David Thorstad, and Jonathan Katz, wanted to work on similar histories and wanted Steakley to collaborate with them. Steakley moved to NYC into an apartment with a former classmate, Bernst Metz, from University of Chicago.

01:04:20	[No question.] With help from Katz, Steakley revised his five-part history of gay German history and submitted it for book publication. JS noted that the publication date, May 1, 1975, coincided with the U.S. pull out from Vietnam. Katz also connected JS with many folks in the NYC gay community that still have connections in gay issues and who moved onto other parts of the U.S. JS listed some of their names and brief histories.

01:09:15	[No question.] JS and others created a gay academic union, which then held the first gay history conference. JS noted another key contributor to the gay academic union and his brief history. Steakley called these “very heady times” and discussed how his time in NYC continued to shape him politically and intellectually. By this time the end of the Vietnam War had caused a change in many movements, including the gay liberation front, which became the gay activist alliance. The major issue became repealing sodomy laws. This thought led Steakley to comment on a discussion with Biddy Martin, during Martin’s UW graduate school days, about how one must have a long-term strategy and a short-term tactic. 

01:14:15	[No question.] Even though Steakley really enjoyed his NYC time, he went nowhere on his job hunt during this time. He joked that he would paper all the walls of his future house with rejection letters. JS felt the gay dissertation topic was holding him back. Around this time an economics professor, Lynn Hobart (sic?), told him about a scholarship chance to go to East Berlin. Steakley offered a history lesson of the mid-1970s (détente, Helsinki Accords) that allowed him and other U.S. folks to go to East Germany and East Berlin. 

01:19:48	[No question.] While applying for the East Germany scholarship, Steakley dumped his gay dissertation topic and moved towards a study of a German author, who wrote two dozen books, including one on homosexuality, although his primary writing were on anarchists. The author’s papers were held in East Berlin. So, JS moved to East Berlin, but he can go across Checkpoint Charlie, meaning he can reconnect with his cohorts in West Berlin. JS also tapped into the nascent gay liberation movement in East Berlin.  

01:23:50	[No question.] Steakley discussed the academic part of his time in East Berlin. First, he was not able to get access to the author’s papers, but he eventually gained access to them. JS then moved to his living situation in East Berlin. First, he lived in a large apartment 10 miles outside of town, and it held everything he needed, except for a phone in the apartment. Steakley asked for a phone, so he was moved to downtown Berlin into a much smaller apartment but a perfect location, central to myriad things in East Berlin and easy access to Checkpoint Charlie.

01:29:37	[No question.] Steakley then talked about meeting the gay movement people in East Berlin. Being a homosexual in East Germany in the mid-1970s, according to Steakley, was not easy. He did note that his friends in East Berlin still do work in the gay community in Germany today. Compared to 1970s New York City, 1970s East Berlin looked pretty good to him. JS talked about his ideas of the pros and cons of 1970s communism.

01:35:55	[No question.] Steakley stumbled into a “cool” gay history topics/documents during his time in East Berlin. He found all the gay and lesbian periodicals from the 1920s at the East Berlin university library. Since he was enrolled at the university, he was able to look at them all, after a six-month wait. Once he got to see them, he took them over, an armful at a time, to West Berlin and had two copies made, one for JS and one for the West Berlin gay community. While in East Berlin, JS applied for jobs with a non-gay dissertation topic and got “some nibbles.” He got a few brief interviews, including one with UW-Madison. 

01:40:31	[No question.] Steakley returned to NYC and worked on his dissertation and applied for jobs again, including at UW-Madison. He met with UW-Madison and Monteclair State College in New Jersey at the MLA conference. After his interviews he was hired for a temporary semester-long job at Monteclair, while UW-Madison folks told him that they wanted to bring him for an interview. Monteclair gave him a chance to teach his own class and teach in German, as well to stay in NYC and commute on the days he taught. 

01:44:38	[No question.] Finally, UW-Madison brought Steakley in for the job interview. Steakley described the interview process, including going to a gay bar, The Back Door, with an out lesbian German professor, Evie Beck, where he met Jacob Stockinger, who JS wanted to meet. After the interview process, JS returned to NYC, unsure of how it went, particularly the class. JS broke his glasses, which he thought helped lower the bar with the German faculty. When JS did get the job, they did help him by breaking him into teaching with an easier course. Steakley talked about the “wonderful” department chair in German at the time, who also chaired the department when JS came up for tenure. 	

01:49:10	[No question.] JS offered his second-hand memories of the hiring process; second-hand because although he was not privy to the discussion, a colleague later filled him on how it went and who voted for him or did not vote for him.

01:54:55	End of Second Interview Session

Third Interview Session (June 21, 2010): Digital File

00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:01:00	Question: Talk about early years at UW-Madison? Answer: Jim Steakley (JS) elaborated on the hiring process, discussing meeting Dean Dave Cronon and Associate Dean Mulvihill. At his meeting with Mulvihill, Mulvihill made a pro-gay comment that made JS feel good about his chance at UW. 

00:05:45	[No question.] After being hired by the German Department, JS felt happy to be in Madison. During his interview he met Jacob Stockinger, who became one of his first roommates. JS, Stockinger, and a couple of other gay men lived in a house on 133 E. Gilman Street, which had been coined “Fag Manor.” Stockinger introduced JS to several lesbian professors on campus; JS discussed one in particularly, Elaine Marks.

00:10:00	[No question.] JS offered brief biographical profiles on Stockinger and another “Fag Manor” resident, Ron McCrea. Stockinger and McCrea “plugged” JS into UW-Madison and Madison politics. JS also talked about one other “Fag Manor” roommate, David Cervantes. Cervantes moved to Los Angeles to become a labor organizer.

00:18:30	[No question.] Steakley described one gay bar in particular, Going My Way, where JS and others played their version of the game, The Gong Show. JS also described gay activities on campus, including the work of the Ten Percent Society and JS’ role in getting gay or gay-friendly speakers to campus. 

00:23:10	[No question.] Steakley, at this point in the interview, spoke at great length (20 minutes) about an important campus figure, George Mosse. Steakley met Mosse soon after JS arrived on campus and became Mosse’s good friend until his death. JS spoke of Mosse’s work as a historian and in gay studies, about Mosse’s family history that led to Mosse getting millions of dollars late in life (even posthumously?), and about Mosse deserved reputation as a great scholar and even better  human being.

00:43:40	[No question.] [Indexer’s note: in the following interview, Steakley clarified the year of the TAA Strike (1980) that he discussed here and the fact that year (1980) was his first as a professor. He served as a lecturer for his first two years here.] Steakley talked about issues with TAs and how, due to his age and recent graduate school life, he felt a strongly affinity to the graduate students than the faculty/administration. He discussed one aftermath of TAA issues, the elimination of an introductory English composition course, and how that affected his department (and others) until it was reinstated decades later.

00:51:30	[No question.] JS discussed how the TAA strike and issues allowed him to see the clash of wills between the older professors and the younger professors and the TAs. JS noted that the two leaders of the TAs in German went onto prominent administrative roles (Biddy Martin at Cornell and UW-Madison and Bob Hallup at UMass-Amherst). 

00:56:30	[No question.] Steakley discussed the difficult position the TAA Strike put onto him. He wanted to support the students, but he could get fired or disciplined for not teaching his classes. JS then offered his overview of the TAA Strike, including what tactics the TAs used to try to stop students from going to class and why the TAs stopped it when they did.

01:03:15	[No question.] JS told how he decided to support the strike but still teach his students. First, he and his students agreed to meet at some other time and place than the official day/time of his class. Second, JS then sat in his classroom at the regular day/time, telling the monitor when he or she came in to check faculty compliance that all of his students supported the strike. After the strike JS read that UW-Madison administration noted that his way (not mentioned Steakley directly) would have been the most effective mass demonstration against them.

01:07:10	[No question.] JS discussed here how the TAA Strike of 1980 showed another split in the German department on political lines. JS detailed the professor who fell on what side of the debate and the underlying politics. From this strike JS joined a new left reading group on campus, led by Biddy Martin and David Bathrick (sic?). JS took this opportunity in the interview to discuss Martin’s background and how JS became her friend during this time period.  

01:13:55	[No question.] JS continued to discuss Martin’s graduate school/early professional career at UW—Madison, focusing on her teaching of a women’s studies class, applying and earning a job as an associate dean, getting her Ph.D, and then being hired by Cornell and currently (in 2010) serving as UW-Madison’s Chancellor. [Note: there are quality issues in the sound in this section.]

01:16:50	[No question.] JS described how the fracture in the department did not adversely affect his yearly contract and eventually his more permanent hiring as an associate professor. JS then offered two anecdotes during this time period: an anti-gay comment made about a graduate student in a campus committee JS served on and pro-gay comment made by the former department chair during a car JS and this person took to Milwaukee

01:22:22	[No question.] JS furnished his memories of AIDS in the early 1980s. He discussed finding out about the disease (before it was named) through his continued connections with his friends/colleagues in NYC and named some of his good friends who died from it in the early 1980s. Also, Steakley talked about the fear and paranoia that overtook the gay community and told the story of getting his first blood test in Germany during a summer fellowship, including the difference between the U.S. and German pre-blood test questionnaire. 

01:33:30	[No question.] In 1981 JS went over to Breymen (sic?), Germany, for a summer fellowship. He taught at the first school in Germany to have a gay studies program, and it was during this time that JS connected with the gay studies folks in the Netherlands, when he gave a presentation there on Gays in Nazi Concentration Camps. This presentation led him to give this talk at other locales around the U.S. and the world and to be tapped by the U.S. National Holocaust Museum as a consultant. These facts led JS to comment on the state of scholarship on the topic (gays in concentration camps) in the early 1980s and today.

01:39:15	[No question.] Steakley began his conclusion by focusing on the past, present, and future of gay studies on campus and gay activism in Madison. He noted that although there have been (and are) some good leaders, there could always be more leadership in this area. He turned the camera, so to speak, on himself here, noting that he could have been a better leader. He never felt he held the right tools for it, however, which also led him to avoid being German Department head. JS also commented here that he could have written more about Gays in Germany, and while he still might try to publish, he has not, as of yet, put all of his research/knowledge into one cohesive piece.

01:44:45	[No question.] JS concluded by discussing the lack of depth in gay studies throughout the country and noting the fact that two lesbians have led UW-Madison over the last twenty-five years. He postulated that gay studies at Madison have lagged, even with two lesbian leaders, because folks have pushed individual and not a collective agenda. 

01:47:21	End of Third Interview Session

Fourth Interview Session (June 24, 2010): Digital File

00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:30	Question: Do you want to clarify anything from our previous interview? Answer: [As mentioned in the index to the 3rd session,] Jim Steakley (JS) began by offering the appropriate date for the TAA Strike, 1980, by explaining why it felt like it happen his first academic year (1977-78) not his third (1979-1980). JS got his job as a professor in 1979-80. 

00:04:00	[No question.] JS concluded his thoughts about the TAA Strike, 1980, by furnishing his memories on the panel created by Chancellor Shain to create the TA Policies & Procedures; one of Gentry’s colleagues, Gentry, served on that panel.

00:06:10	[No question.] JS discussed his involvement in a group, Women in German (WiG). Along with Steakley his colleague, Beck, and Biddy Martin also were involved in that group. This group that started in the 1980s became very successful in (re)introducing women authors into the German literature/history field, getting German textbooks to portray women in a more positive light, mentoring women graduate students and new faculty. The mentoring program in particular in this organization became standard practice across all departments. JS brought the textbook issue into the present day by offering an anecdote about a publisher denying an author’s wish to include a gay character in a German textbook. 

00:15:00	[No question.] JS continued to discuss WiG. Even though he served in a leadership role at one point, JS did not attend the yearly conference. This fact led JS to discuss the separatist movement in feminism/lesbianism. JS, in the 1980s, believed to some extent in separatism, which does inform one on why he did not attend WiG conferences. JS also offered the cons of separatism, including go against freedom of speech and/or assembly.

00:24:15	[No question.] Steakley talked about some pro-gay courses and groups on campus. Primarily, he offered his (and others, such as John Kersch) role in creating Symposium, which became the first gay faculty group on campus. Symposium included several gay professors—JS named some—and brought in many guest speakers.

00:33:05	[No question.] JS focused on the first gay studies course on campus, which he team taught after he earned tenure. He said that building an interdisciplinary class (humanities, social sciences, and sciences) was not easy, and listing the class through women’s studies was also not easy. He and the others two faculty taught the class in 1987 and 1989.

00:39:30	[No question.] Steakley continued to discuss this class, including describing what type of students joined it. Varied types of students participated, and JS thought that they all got something positive from it. By 1989 students on campus moved to create a gay fraternity; JS moved this thought to the present by commenting on an effort to create a special interest dorm section on gender.

00:43:10	[No question.] By the late 1980s, JS felt he related less to the new gay students he met and taught on campus. Specifically he recalled one setting where these students talked about being gay and having a family as not mutually exclusive. That idea seemed foreign to JS; he offered his thoughts on why, except for closeted gays and lesbians who had/raised children, hardly anyone from his time and before thought being gay and being a dad or a mom was possible.

00:48:10	[No question.] JS was tenured in 1986. This offered him the flexibility now to not only teach the aforementioned gay studies course but also to teach aboard, which he did in the fall of 1987 in Berlin. In this section JS noted how some out professors argued that LGBT professors/instructors should stay closeted until they get tenure. Since JS was out before he was hired at UW, he could not choose that option. He did note that he published, during his pre-tenure days, in both gay and straight publications. JS also offered an overview of his time teaching in Germany, including the difference between U.S. and German students.

00:54:55	[No question.] In this section Steakley spoke at length about the ROTC’s prohibition of gay students on campus. He began by noting that also Symposium had dissolved by then, the group had created a list of gay professors on campus who one could mobilize quickly over important issues, such as the ROTC one. Steakley explained the key players on the pro-gay side of this issue, besides himself, such as Chancellor Donna Shalala and Professor Joe Elder. While the group won the battle, per se, when the faculty voted to dissemble the ROTC contracts, they lost the war when the courts (?) shot down removing ROTC from campus due the rules, including having a military teaching presence, of a land grant campus. JS also noted that two key players in the effort, Chancellor Shalala and Congressman Les Aspin, both joined President Clinton’s cabinet in 1993 and became a part of the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” military policy regarding gays and lesbians. JS did see the irony in someone like him with an anti-military history pushing for gays in military. 

01:05:00	[No question.] JS talked about the late 1980s on campus and off of it. He noted the name (Jay Hathaway, who (in 2010) taught at Edgewood College) gay graduate student who started the ROTC controversy and discussed the fall of the Berlin Wall, including talks he gave about its possible impact on Wisconsin Public Radio.

01:12:50	[No question.] Steakley turned his narrative to the creation of the Gay and Lesbian Issues Committee on campus. He noted the work that Mary Rausch, who served then as the Dean of Students, did for its creation, as well as criticism she took from some who thought she moved too slowly. The committee created a report, and at least 2 action items from it occurred. First, a liaison between gay and lesbian students and administration was hired (Janice Shepherd). And second, a campus LGB (no T or Q at that time) center opened. 

01:18:15	[No question.] JS went to Germany in 1991 to teach in Hanover. He discussed how Gulf War, which built up in late 1990 and started in early 1991 affected his time in Hanover. He specifically described the German protests to the war, which ended when Chancellor Kohl told people to stop protesting. This led Steakley to comment on the “whiny disobedience” of the German people.

01:23:10	[No question.] JS described his return to Madison, including how his trips to Germany led to some disconnect at times from campus gay issues. He also noted how the outgoing chair of the German Department, Gentry, told him that he would become the book review editor for (?). He served at that job for 5 years without a course release, something all editors after him received. At this time (early 1990s), Dick Wagner and Tammy Baldwin created an LGB alumni council, which became affiliated with the Wisconsin Alumni Association in 1994 and created an annual award for outstanding LGB (now TQ) alumni.

01:27:30	[No question.] Steakley described campus issues involving LGB folks in the mid/late 1990s. He and others worked through the University Committee to create a permanent LGB(T?) issues committee. Steakley served as the first chair, and the committee began by polling professors/instructors about how many LGB content they offered in their classes. The responses led them to create a list of 100 courses that included some discussion on gay issues

01:33:30	[No question.] JS spent 1996-1997 in Freiburg, which caused someone else on campus to take over the committee. That year the committee created a report with 18 recommendations, including the permanent creation of a gay studies course (right?). JS concluded this interview with the fact that his German class duties stopped him from teaching gay studies courses here. Joe Elder, a straight man, has taught the class since 2000. JS offered a brief overview on Elder’s bona fides and the reason Elder and his wife advocate for LGBT issues.

01:37:45	End of Fourth Interview Session

Fifth Interview Session (August 17, 2010): Digital File

00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:31    [No question.] JS began discussing the introduction of LGBT studies at UW-Madison.  He related that Professor Joseph W. Elder launched the introduction to LGBT studies class in 2000 and has taught the class each semester since.  Mariamne Whatley, then in the School of Education, proved instrumental to securing approval from the academic planning council for the LGBT certificate program in 2003.  JS was advised to take a more moderate approach to founding the program after an interview he did with the Capitol Times caused concern.

00:03:46    [No question.] George Mosse’s bequest donated $250, 000 to fund LGBT research and teaching at Madison.  Funded separately, in 2001 Anne Enke was the first LGBT studies hire with an appointment 50%  history, 25%  women’s studies and 25% LGBT studies.  The Mosse funds now generate interest to fund other LGBT studies initiatives such as a recent fellowship. 

00:07:16    [No question] Steakley then described another significant aspect of UW-Madison’s LGBT history he remembers that related to Assistant Dean William “Bill” Miller.  JS noted that Miller had considered filing a gay discrimination lawsuit because the University refused to grant him leave after his partner died of HIV related complications.   JS also related that Miller told him that he destroyed University personnel files during a regular records purge that documented the University taking disciplinary action or terminating employees for being gay.  Miller destroyed the files to protect the individuals’ privacy.  JS was disheartened to hear this because of the history lost.

00:12:35    JS reflected that he was more or less finished and reviewed the list of questions associated with the interview in order to briefly respond to anything he missed.  

00:13:13   Question: In your mind, has there been a gay or lesbian or LGBT community in Madison?  If so, what were/are the key aspects of that community?  Has it changed over time?  Answer: Yes!  Lesbian community has been considered stronger than the gay community.  The lesbian community was associated with the strong women’s music scene and related women’s concerts. 

00:14:05   Question: Is there an LGBT issue(s) where you have seen the most change in your lifetime?  Is there one (or more) where you have seen the least changes?  Would you be willing to guess on what might change over the next decade?  And if so, what might not change?  Answer:  Marriage, family and custody of children is the issue that has changed the most.  During JS’s time at UW-Madison, the Aids issue was very significant.  This has continued and brought public discussions of queerness to prominence.  The difficulties of coming out for young people is the issue that has changed the least.  JS refers to his work with a gay-straight alliance, GSAFE, and how things have improved somewhat for youth coming out but the pressure for conformity in high school still keeps this an ongoing difficult issue.  Steakley thinks LGBT marriage and military service will continue to move forward and that the focus of LGBT studies is changing.  From his experience, young LGBT scholars have become more interested in cultural representation, which he laments as a move away from the study of emancipation/repression dynamics. 

00:19:01   Question: How did the department change during your career? How have undergraduates changed? What departmental support/encouragement did you receive for your research career?  Answer: The caliber of the undergraduates has gotten better due to more selective admissions but the caliber of the graduate students has declined because of de-politicization of the German department.  Steakley cited the German department’s former Marxist reading group contrasted with the more recent bowling group and bible group to demonstrate this change.  JS is also disappointed with UW-Madison’s comparatively low funding of research and few opportunities for taking sabbatical as well as one of the lowest pay scales in the big 10 schools.  

00:23:54    Question: If you could put three things on your tombstone what would they be?  Answer: Steakley related an anecdote about the epitaphs of two UW-Madison history professors, George Mosse and Harvey Goldberg.  Goldberg’s gravestone read, Teacher, Historian, Political activist.  Mosse’s gravestone read, simply, Historian.  JS’s three choices would be: Teacher, Amateur Historian, Gay Activist.

00:27:11     End of Fifth Interview Session

End of Oral History #1088