UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #347
GAPEN, KAYE

GAPEN, Kaye (1945- )
Director of Memorial Library and University Libraries
At UW: 1984-1990

Interviewed: 1988	
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length:     3 hours, 24 minutes	

Change in top administration; Contrast between Irving Shain and Donna Shalala; Personnel case; Library staff and Hayes-Hill retitling effort; Shalala's efforts to defuse academic staff unionization; Gapen's working relationship with System; Library budget; Automation; Collection development; UW-Milwaukee library; Circumstances of appointment as director; Problems encountered in first months; Staff reorganization; Relationship with directors of other campus libraries; Tension in periods of change; Library profession.

First Interview Session (March 3, 1988): Digital File
Tape 1/Side 1

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:01:01	Frequent question, what like being woman administrator on campus.  Three things happened recently: people in Bascom jockeying for position when Shain announced leaving; not good time for people at next level start anything new; rumors around about Shalala--then see her come with great talent, drive, vision.  So much more broadly focused than most people on campus.  Her message on importance of liberal education.  Her social commitment, in additional.  Wonderfully organized.  Shain organized too but didn't get focused onto progressive actions.  Was on defensive with System.  Madison aggressive but not pro-active, just reactive.  One reason regents acting the way they are--strongly.  Would lose whole System.

00:05:22	KG has been invited to go to deans' meetings, and has been made a dean!  She does same amount work in half the time.  Madison Plan a challenge--get people to accept new attitude.  She would have Phil Certain present plan, then she'd say to deans, What are you going to do about it?, meaning how would they try integrate minority thinking into new programs.  Got them to validate it with their approval.

00:07:20	Shalala talked to them about ethnic course.  Said wanted deans to talk about it first, but if they wouldn't she would go to senate.  They all did.

00:08:01	But deans are still on early road of transition from world run by men to world where deans will look at issues not from point of view of last year but point of view of future.  She's no longer god-like, superwoman.  But she's so good at what she does that respect is growing.  And everyone is adjusting into new pecking order.  Will she put women in key positions soon?

00:09:39	A case of a librarian, Sylvia Watson--black, a botanist (Hugh Iltis), the library committee, and the running of the botany library.  Phil Certain, Dave Cronon involved.  The final meeting, last Friday.  Phil trying get Hugh acknowledge he might have been slightly at fault.  Cronon cutting him off, moving on to finding compromise position.  Men decided not Hugh's fault, relaxed, closed ranks around him.  Cronon had said was going to be tough with Hugh, cut off library privileges.  Now decided Watson 's problems emotional.  Would deal with it in "a behavioral way".  Would not ask Hugh to look at his behavior. Hugh in effect lied, in that usually excitable, angry.  At meeting absolutely calm.  A facade.  Made everyone comfortable.  KG doesn't think women would have done it in that way.  Thinks that's going to happen frequently.  Helps her understand how academic staff people feel.  Door swings down; I'm faculty, I'm different.  Later Phil Certain and KG E-mailed each other.  He asked her how she felt about it.  Doesn't think he was pleased.  Problem won't be solved, but now botany library committee will be more active and intercede.

00:25:29	But Donna may be able to make things like this change.  KG notices her talking about same things but from different perspective.  Wakes people up.  People wonder if she can get university to change.  She's going to find people who want to make changes and will enable them to do it.  Mary Rouse as an example.  Going to weekly administrative meetings.   Get all people committed to change doing something.

00:27:03	Q. how are different deans reacting.  Entrepreneurial deans support her--e.g. John Bollinger.  Doesn't pay attention to whether woman or men, just wants get things done.  Weaker deans being quiet.  Dave Cronon and Leo Walsh important.  Dave is being himself--neither positive, nor negative.  Leo Walsh taking stronger voice in many of meetings questioning things.  Foundation people came to talk, and he questioned them and showed displeasure.  Business dean supportive but getting tired.  The money has to raise the new building.

00:29:58	She'll have new appointments--L&S, Graduate School.  Bernie will probably step down soon.  KG will miss him.  Shalala's more of an academic than people expected.

00:30:44	Q. re Phil Certain.

00:31:08	End of side. 

Tape 1/Side 2

00:31:11	(tail end of master tape side 1)   A hell of a nice guy.   Took over vice chancellorship at time of Hayes Hill business.  A mess from beginning to end, made everyone angry.  Libraries had set up a librarian titling in 1984-85.  Effort to get career ladder.  Had implemented that.  KG has been through it several times in other institutions so knew ins and outs.  No one here had.  Important to make true assessment of people the very first time--standards people can understand and that are applied to everyone.

00:35:01	Joe Treyz not a good administrator.  Librarians worked around him.  Phil came into middle of that.  In 1986-87 titling for whole academic staff.  People who run small special libraries felt should be in the director series.  The difference.  KG fought them.  They started going to Phil.  That's when she and Phil got talking.  Phil, Judy Craig and KG tried negotiate compromise.  Librarian Series, Director Series, Special Librarian Series.  Didn't completely please, but special librarians went along with it.  Most involved in Hayes Hill had never done personnel system in their lives.  Tended want to give in, when problem of definition, e.g. definition of longevity.  In Hayes Hill longevity plays into where salary is.  In library, years of service relevant for first 3 to 5 years, but after that not.  Can be in a job 40 years and not grow.  So after that look at performance and achievement.  Discusses criteria.

00:40:50	People interested in union look at longevity; governance people look at achievement.  If that doesn't prevail will be like classified staff.

00:42:02	Library had framework in place--salary guidelines, criteria, career ladder.  KG fought to keep when Hayes Hill came.  Librarians were worried would be deprofessionalized.  KG did influence them.  Met with them.  KG thinks other academic staff may think libraries have been bandits.  Got catch-up, peer review process to judge achievement.  Librarians sometimes forget what they have achieved, and complain, e.g. law librarian.  Is a union member.  Newsletter says KG has skimmed money off catch-up and given it to administrators.  Took it to academic assembly. 

00:45:15	Donna Shalala aware that you have to think about possibility of unionization in making decisions.  If the catch-up bill for academic staff hadn't included provision for governance, and academic staff had no voice, money would have been given out and people would have had no way of knowing whether it had been done fairly.  Bill also required hire someone to determine that money distributed fairly--that's how Hayes Hill got here.  Still some salary equity issues to be reviewed.  Shalala sensitive about this.  Has talked it over with Katharine Lyall, so System and campus will both look at them.   She will make academic staff governance mechanism work.

00:49:39	She looks at most dangerous issues, tries anticipate what will happen, and how they will appear in headlines.  Unionization a dangerous issue.  A lot of letters to her before she came about KG's skimming money off for administrators.  The Daily Cardinal articles on the library, just when DS was visiting.  Her statement that Holley Committee proposal reflected period of 1970s and 1980 and she wanted to deal with what would be happening in the 1990s.

00:53:00	Q. whether KG aware of extent to which System may put things on her that she couldn't possibly anticipate.  She's made brief comments in deans' meetings.  When KG first came two major issues--the on-line catalogue, whether to continue or drop it and find another system; second, the Memorial Addition divided into two phases by Shain who needed money for large animal facility.  So only shell approved for first allocation.  KG had to work with budget people on this campus and with System budget.  Has had no difficulty working with System people on those projects.  Have been rigorous in presenting case for larger sum for library.  The steps.  Always got support, help, understanding.  They call her about problems on other campuses.  She likes them.  She thinks we brought difficulties on ourselves.  Can't keep thinking System is going away;  president has to do stuff, you have to figure out how to help him do stuff.  She knows all that.  She knows Katharine.  She knows she will try to help him.  Is spending more time with legislators than with board of regents.  Sensible.  Not having to spend time putting out fires.

00:58:03	End of session. 

Second Interview Session (March 21, 1988): Digital File
Tape 2/Side 1

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:12	L&S help to library for physics journals.  The desperate budget situation.  Evidence they've collected.  System not putting library at top.  Have lost one half of purchasing power.  Got $340,000.  Whole budget $4.5 million, with law and medicine.  Means not buying forty to fifty thousand monographs this year. Collection not even adequate now.  Nothing for new areas--robotics, folklore.  Overhead money from grants doesn't go up.  Much of campus running on soft money.

00:05:13	Automation $1.5 million to run a year.  NLS  (Network Library System) short a million of base budget.  Nothing from System or legislature.  Doesn't understand lack of collection support.  If chancellor not successful in getting support, will become mediocre.  They lend about 100,000 books a year, not counting Xeroxing.  40% to System libraries.

00:08:31	Staff needed to explain new electronic information and help get it.  Will have to see what can quit doing.  Gave paper on psychology of library staff.  Electronic information takes more analysis.  Have to discuss with client; can be two hours per search.  Have to meet most important needs--faculty, graduate students.  Won't be able to help undergrads much.  Librarians not used to turning people down.

00:11:42	Bernie Cohen asked KG to give Donna Shalala recommendations on what to do for library support in response to what System committee recommends.  Will ask more book budget.  If don't add titles, make best use of what have.  Use electronic databases, concentrate on bibliographic help.  So triage--make choices.  Otherwise hope things get so bad that state will come around.

00:14:03	Some departments writing letters--math, German, classics.  Want larger portion of existing money.  Why aren't faculty really upset?  Only 20% of scholarly publications available.  And can never make up.  No back issues.  Not getting electronic resources now available.  Have to lay ground for electronic information.

00:16:37	No regents are interested.  By now KG here long enough so would be willing talk one to one, e.g. legislators, regents.  Has to be casual.  Can't shortcut campus priorities.  Shalala does give library high priority.  Got midyear funding for NLS.  Her first year budget will be revealing.  She wants catchup, too.  KG wonders if should be pushing harder.  Cap Times did have an article on the library collection.

00:20:51	Q. re Milwaukee demand for more money for library.  Good that faculty complaining and getting in press.  Not good Roselle asking twice as much as KG thinks possible for Madison to ask.  But would lose credibility if asked for more.  Told Bernie what needed.  Likes be realistic.  Need $1 million plus 750,000 next fiscal year.  Will get 300,000.  Result next biennium.  Bill Roselle asking $400 million.  She's on guardedly good terms with Roselle.  Milwaukee hasn't put anything into library computing.  He hadn't been interested in NLS part.  Wanted use his share for something else.  Called KG, after had finally agreed to use NLS, wanting her support.  She refused.  They talked with Cammack.  KG angry. Cammack soothed her down, persuaded Bill to accept NLS.  Dangerous arousing faculty.  Looks like manipulating chancellor.  If not campus priority, is poor teamwork.  He's worried faculty may have pressed too hard.  If it works, legislature might make special allocation--and Madison could lose.  Shaw and Shalala have to know how to handle that.  He's more desperate than KG.  Hasn't had support like Madison; is frustrated.  KG not that frustrated yet.  Would have been under Shain.  He wouldn't support it big.  She needs millions of dollars.  $1,000,000 a drop in the bucket.

00:31:19	End of side. 

Tape 2/Side 2

00:31:41	Deans have pool of money due keeping salary savings so have flexibility.

00:32:55	No space for books.  If got money to buy, would need space to store and staff to handle.

00:33:45	Different constituencies of libraries.  Students want hours; graduate students want hours and collections, faculty want proximity, collections, Bernie Cohen wants things to go smoothly.  Suggested reallocating.  But nothing to reallocate.  KG expected to solve the problems.  Can, except how make money for books.  Shalala doesn't expect her to solve it.  Says, yes, more, or no, no more.  Shain--you never quite knew.  Would bail you out.  Not way KG likes be managed.

00:38:18	Collection is central.  Can make it up with resource sharing and electronic information to take place of collection, but if no collection, no collection.  Takes years to build fund raising base.

00:38:54	Cronon speaks up for library, law dean does but doesn't allocate money.  Cohen says talk to deans.  KG does but they say not their responsibility, is state responsibility.

00:41:10	Back to KG's appointment.  KG put name in.  Heard nothing for months.  Gossip rife in library circles.  Virginia Thomas in Shain's office said they tried tap into library grapevine.  Shain called Kaye, sent Percy Report.  KG talked to two librarians she knew and at library meetings in Seattle where she gave keynote address.  They said a cesspool.  Wisconsin doesn't know what wants.  Won't support faculty rank for librarians.  Percy Report from outer space.  KG came.  Librarians bitter and angry.  Relieved that Treyz had gone.  KG thinks Fowler report was libelous.  Didn't need use words they did--like `fascist'.  Bickering among staff, no middle management.  Faculty members she talked to reasonable--Marian O'Leary, Richard Knowles.  Nancy Marshall and KG had been colleagues on a project.  She had wanted be a candidate.  Not helpful.  Was sideways with Shain and Bascom.

00:47:30	Library at point of catharsis.  Percy had made recommendations.  Shain seemed supportive of KG requirements.  Bascom supportive.  Needed help with computing; KG good on computing.

00:49:10	Dinner with search committee.  Someone asked what was a library director.  KG said, a technocrat.  Shain didn't like.  KG interviewing at LSU.  Had oil money.  Day after second visit to LSU, Shain asked her come for second visit.  Talked to her four hours.  KG felt understood what he wanted.  Had some doubts whether could do it.  Faculty intimidating.  They talked money. Was about to interview for job in California so had choices, knew what wanted.  She asked him about collection support and support for NLS.  He had made commitment for staff support for backlog of cataloguing.  Made offer.

00:53:45	She accepted.  Her reasons.

00:55:25	Meeting with bibliographers on second visit.  [They were fighting with each other.  She wanted to know what they needed.  They couldn't come up with anything.  Dave Henige was watching.  Said "we need tell her what we want".  They agreed finally needed collection money and staff.]   KG, when came, wanted first of all get acquainted with staff.  35 people reported to her.  No middle management.  Group meetings.  Mentions Frank, Sandy.  Nancy problematical [had moved into this office and wanted stay].  KG said no.

00:58:23	Met faculty.  UW Library Committee new.  Marian O'Leary chair.  KG read Percy report.  It outlined things needing be done.  Discussed with people who reported to her.  They had already solved some of problems.  She authenticated some of committees: equity action--she asked them to do more; she set up collection development group.

00:59:29	NLS was foundering.  The library addition was not split into two projects.  Put KG between faculty, who wanted it all at once, and Shain.  Had to decide what to do with NLS.  All this in first three months.  Budget planning came back, said less spent on books this year than last year, but got big increase.  Where did money go?

01:00:57	End of side. 

Tape 3/Side 1

01:00:59	(from voice).  Got budget people together.  Took them two days to figure out that had allocated increased money to operating expenses.  Had big needs.  Percy encouraged Marshall to do that.  Identified $167,000 that had to be put back into collection budget.  First big financial crisis three months after she came.  Went back to the 35, said, What can we cut.  Big discussions.  Did it.  Once back in book budget had decide how allocate it among selectors.  Enormous bone of contention.  KG wanted change formula.  Was ten years old.  Figured out a way.  An important symbol for selectors.  Showed them wouldn't be business as usual.  Set up tension.  Healthy to KG, but makes them nervous.  Sent message to all the people here who were involved in making those decisions that they couldn't make those decisions, and took them two days figure out how they had done it, so had to be better bookkeeping and administrative support.  Sent very tough message to Nancy.  KG had to tell Nancy Marshall she wasn't respected by Shain and others.  They hadn't told her so how could she know.  Don Percy was telling her what to do, but not telling them that he was.  Hurt her.  Inappropriate on his part.

01:05:50	They had told her be tougher about NLS development.  She had had long memo battles with Jack Dewe and Glenn Watts about funding NLS but they didn't want that.  Wanted her be on top of it, not to make trouble.

01:06:30	Budget under way.  Gave KG chance say things about collection and NLS.  Exploring how reorganize.  Marshall wanted keep associate director title.  Frank, asst director.  Then department heads.  Hammered out plan.  Executive group of reps of primary areas in library.  Eight people.  Hired Noland Pope for automation.  Advertised and then hired Lou Pitschmann to oversee collection development.  Divisive thing at end first year.  Librarians doing titling activity, pre Hayes Hill.  All set, but criteria for determining which title librarians should have not formed.  (See earlier interview).  Some people discontented.  Was divisive.  Still remnants of it.  Then state budget repair bill and everything turned around.  Reorganization didn't fit.  Had to have new organization structure if going have 27 fewer people. Now only 13 people reporting, nice layer of middle management.  Almost everyone ended up in a new organizational component of the general library system.

01:10:27	Had Noland Pope.  NLS working ok so implemented.  Keeps working better.  Started staff development program.  Hired collection coordinator, automation person.  Needed more on line searching.  Have added micro computers, a training budget and subsidies to get more on-line searching started.  People protested microcomputers but KG bought and created revolution, people creative, excited.  Got salaries in balance, as Percy had recommended.

01:12:20	Percy wanted better collection development control.  Lou here two years, getting people pull together.  KG kept contingency fund of $30T for collection development.  People suspicious.  Now $100,000 and nobody worried any more.  Allocating where is needed.

01:13:18	Responsiveness to campus needs.  Much better.  No complaints.  Librarians feel better about it.

01:13:56	Relations with unions.  Two.  Joe gave whatever they wanted.  KG stopped that.  Respects them, they respect her.  Only three or four grievances since she came.

01:15:47	KG reads Percy report every year.  Nothing left to do.  All new problems.  Continuing themes are Bernie Cohen's support--she had nothing more to do with Shain after she came.  Never talked to him.  He got angry when she cut library hours.  She had warned him she would and what would happen.  He got embarrassing phone calls, and put money back (took it away the next year).  Has solved campus relationships.  Inside the library period of ferment and growth.  People under enormous stress--implementing enormous system, titling, new technology in microcomputing, staff cuts.  But enormous growth.

01:19:41	KG has not solved how get along with other directors of the professional libraries.  CHS, Law, Engineering librarians all report to their deans.  Steenbock under general library system.  Called Library Coordinating Council.  Doesn't know how get along with them.  Pecking order conflicts.  They are autonomous and she is, but she's bigger.  She may make a decision, forget tell them, they get ticked off.  But they work very slowly.  Very puzzling.  Gets along with deans, faculty, undergraduates.  But not with Library Coordinating Council people.  May matter in development of outreach via electronic information.  They have active relationships with businesses and don't want to lose it, don't want coordinate especially for fund raising.  Makes difference in shelving and space.  Middleton Library can't get on list because Memorial is getting addition. She feels constrained.  Needs KG's help but won't use it.  Will matter more as the three deans go directly to Donna.  How will she handle it--will she try deal with each group separately or coordinate.  Bernie had KG go talk to Bollinger and librarian re becoming part of General System.  They didn't want do it.  DC wants get rid of 150 small departmental libraries.

01:26:00	Maybe Shalala will strengthen coordinating function.  People don't want be coordinated.  An altercation now.  KG wonders if she's being fair.  Sandy points out they have to be willing cooperate.  They have never gotten along with each other.

01:27:09	In last year people have been talking about low morale and lack of communication internally.  People saying like days of Treyz.  Now they know too much, don't know what's important.  People had get used to reporting to someone else, often younger than they, and new.  And new people not sure how be good supervisors.  Came up last summer.  Libraries unfair to workers.  Shook administrators up.  Policy of going extra mile in personnel cases.  Two grievances against her--man in acquisitions, and law librarian, re her salary and title.  KG has nothing to do with her salary and title.  End of side and session.

01:30:50	End of tape. 

Third Interview Session (June 6, 1988): Digital File
Tape 4/Side 1

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:08	KG's motor cycling.

00:08:02	The new chancellor as of June.

00:13:06	Library director's responsibility toward chancellor.

00:14:40	Questions administrators have about Shalala.  Importance that she succeed.  Doesn't articulate ideas clearly, then impatient if not carried through.  She does support research mission.

00:23:02	KG thinks she's successful with regents.

00:25:03	Vice chancellors, infra-structure people worried.

00:26:12	Hard get to see her.  No social life with faculty.  Not for a chat.  No personal friendships.

00:29:02	End of side.

Tape 4/Side 2

00:29:06	(from voice) KG's relations with Shalala; DS support of library.

00:37:25	Q. re staff morale.  Concerned about it.

00:39:35	How deanship works over library staff.  Governance, business relationships.

00:42:15	Tension in period of change.

00:43:28	The new organization--clusters, beginning to work.  People want return to past and stability.

00:44:47	On collection vs. automation.  Collection funds earmarked, $4.5 million, collection; $1 million automation.

00:46:45	Thirty positions lost in last budget and KG has reallocated, put staff into help desk and preservation.

00:47:42	The expansion of new publications and of electronic information.  How KG weighs the two.  Discussion of science area.  KG moved $60 thousand into electronic information from books.  The discussion about this with the science cluster.

00:53:16	Discussing the feminine psychology of the library profession.  Writing a paper on it.  "Woman in bondage" profile.

00:56:25	End of session. 

END