UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #339
CENTER, CHARLES C.

CENTER, Charles C. (1910- )
Graduate Student; Professor of Business
At UW: 1938-1941; 1946-1973

Interviewed: 1987	
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length: 3 hours, 34 minutes

Abstract: On his December 1987 interview with Laura Smail, Charles Center detailed his thoughts and memories of his education and employment at UW-Madison. Center covered such topics as deans Elwell and Gaumnitz, life in graduate school during the depression, Vietnam War demonstrations, and his contributions to the UW Faculty Association ranging in time periods from the 1930’s until the year of the interview. Also discussed were the operations of the School of Business during Center’s appointment, the mistreatment of female faculty members, and changes Center initiated within his courses. This interview was conducted for inclusion into the UW—Madison Oral History Program. 

Keywords: Background; Business School under deans Fayette Elwell and Erwin Gaumnitz; Women faculty members; Relationship with Economics Department; Changes in approach to teaching insurance; Life in tent colony as graduate student; Dow demonstration in Commerce Building; History of UW Faculty Association.

First Interview Session (December 17, 1987): Tapes 1-2

Tape 1/Side 1

00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction.

00:00:43	[no question] Charles Center (CC) continues a story he began prior to start of interview. Elwell's management of Commerce School. CC learned early on to avoid Elwell as much as possible. Elwell drove away a lot of faculty due to his poor communication skills. CC became upset and did not want to speak about Elwell anymore.

00:06:04	[no question] Circumstances of CC's appointment, including his background.  Baird Taylor, who was a primary professor of CC’s, Erwin Gaumnitz roles. Most of CC’s graduate work was in economics, rather than commerce. Center became a teaching assistant for both Taylor and Gaummnitz. After obtaining PhD, CC worked briefly at University of Missouri before contacting Gaummnitz about other positions.  Gaummnitz persuaded Elwell to hire Center as an assistant professor.

00:13:12	Question: Courses with Elwell? Answer: No. Elwell only taught accounting. CC’s studied economics. CC discusses choice of private finance as field – meshed well with his interests.  CC did not have to get approval from Elwell.  

00:17:58	Question: What was the school like when you joined the faculty? Answer: CC discusses his appointments that year. CC had to move to the new Commerce building from Sterling.  CC compares University of Missouri to Madison.

00:21:08	Question: Elwell’s philosophy for a business school? Answer:   Elwell's goal was solely to turn out accounting students.  Angela Lins treated unfairly by Elwell because she was a single woman. Irene Hensley was driven away by Elwell, because of her opinions.  Elwell's teaching.  John Gibson. 

00:25:45	[no question] Listing people in economics.  Baird Taylor left, because of a comment Elwell made about Taylor’s accounting.

00:28:44	End of side.

Tape 1/Side 2

00:28:45	[no question] CC finishes thoughts.

00:29:17	Question: How was the school run when you started? Answer: Very few faculty meetings under Elwell.  No participative government. When Gaummnitz took over there was too much governance.  Only cohesion among faculty under Elwell was social.  No participation in academic planning. Everything came from the dean’s office. Waiting for Elwell to retire.

00:33:41	Question: Elwell on salaries? Answer: Elwell wanted to look good in comparison to other departments. CC discusses Elwell's policy re salaries.

00:35:21	Question: Did you keep your ties with economics dept.? Answer: A lot of faculty was dying at that time. Jim Early and Walter Morton were still there. CC took classes from Morton and was a TA for him.
 
00:37:32	Question: How did Morton and Elwell get along? Answer: They didn’t speak to each other. Would have fought if they did. 

00:38:50	Question: What about Elwell’s link with the legislator? Answer: Elwell lobbied legislators. He flattered people who could do something for him. Went to the legislator for the new commerce building.

00:40:19	Question: School for management issue? Answer: No involvement. CC talks about politics within the school. McCarthy era and Elwell. 

00:43:10	Question: Did you ever consider going anywhere else? Answer: Yes. Stanford gave an invitation. It was a difficult decision.

00:44:36	[no question] Gaumnitz could influence Elwell. Gaummnitz avoided confrontation and Elwell responded well. Elwell would only listen to Gaummnitz.

00:46:12	Question: Would Gaummnitz become dean? Answer: Yes. He was was popular. Gaumnitz as dean made faculty into a group.  Reference to Management Institutes.  Poor choice of director –bad first election.  

00:49:21	Question: What were Gaumnitz's goals for school? Answer: Goals were to improve and grow. Work at the problems and weaknesses. 

00:50:00	Question: Were there divisions in the business school? Answer: Leads off to general discussion of economics department and why CC came here. Madison was affordable and close to his family. End of institutional economics near the end of the 1930’s.  Developments in economics didn't occur in business schools.

00:55:30	Question: Was Gaumnitz a penny pincher? Answer: No, he tried to get money for salaries. He succeeded moderately.

00:55:44	End of Tape 1. 

Tape 2/Side 1

00:55:45	[no question] Talks about living in the Tent Colony. CC and his family lived in Tent Colony – had to create own shelter – to save money. CC says it was a case of happy poverty. 

00:59:23	[no question] Living quarters in the Tent Colony and competition between liberals and conservatives there. CC and his family scrounged furniture. Grocery shopped on University Avenue. 

01:04:20	Question: Did the Tent Colony provide an important source of friendships? Answer: The friends dispersed – many became teachers. Some friendships have been maintained, though. CC lived there for 4 summers – 1937-1940.   

01:05:44	Question: Did your wife enjoy living in the Tent Colony? Answer: She put up with it. Financial arrangements required them to live in the Tent Colony for the summer. In the winter, CC and family had to stay elsewhere – tiny bungalows with other couples. CC’s wife had a nervous breakdown due to life with two children on the second floor of a tiny bungalow. CC took his wife for granted.

01:08:16	Question: Teaching? Answer: There were changes in teaching of insurance—institutional to functions. A shift from institutional to functions was caused by the evolution that took place in the 1960’s. CC took a risk management approach.  

01:12:30	[no question] CC continues discussing process of risk management. Talks about preventative, reserve, etc. Teachers had to broaden their views and perspectives at this time – not teaching insurance, but risk management.

01:16:16	End of side. 

Tape 2/Side 2

01:16:17	[no question] Finishes thought.

01:16:31	Question: How did you go about changing your courses from insurances to risk management? Answer: You think it out for yourself. There is a lot of literature on the topic. This change in courses happened as an evolution over a few years. The course made a final change in the early 1960s. 

01:19:05	Question: Were insurance companies concerned about this change? Answer: They weren’t aware. CC hopes they thought he and others were creating better consumers of insurance. 

01:21:08	[no question] Talks about the plaque his graduate students gave him after he retired.  Enrollment in his classes was between 200-400 for entry level courses. CC got to know his students better in second-level courses. He is still in touch with a few of these students. Encourages good people to go on to graduate work.  Names some of his teaching assistants and where they ended up in their careers. One of his students became so successful, he was bought out by an insurance company for millions. 

01:25:40	[no question] CC continues talking about his former students and their successes.

01:26:32	Question: Were you ever tempted into going into the business world? Answer: CC more involved in the lives of his students. CC tells a story about creating a grant for one of his successful students. CC had a lot of international students in his graduate program.

01:29:50	[no question] CC discusses his refusal of a retirement dinner. His colleagues roasted him instead. CC talks about his second marriage and wedding

01:33:19	End of Tape 2.  End of first interview session

Second Interview Session (December 21, 1987): Tapes 3-4

Tape 3/Side 1

00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction.
	
00:00:15	[no question] CC talks about serving on the teaching award committee. No memory of the activities in these committees. Gives his thoughts on President Fred – poor public speaker. CC doesn’t remember the people on the committee. 

00:04:45	Question: Opinion on the evaluation of the business school? Answer: The faculty welcomed Gaumnitz, especially after Elwell. The love affair with Gaumnitz ended after the review of faculty. Gaumnitz struggled to make decisions and avoided making his opinion clear. 

00:08:58	[no question] CC continues talking about Herb. Faculty tried to reform Herb. CC was the one selected by the faculty to talk with Herb about dissatisfaction. Meetings became more definite – Herb spoke to a specific point. There was improvement.

00:10:56	Question: How did Herb take these suggestions? Answer: There was a noticeable change in the conduct of meetings. CC didn’t know if Herb was happy to be corrected. For the remainder of his tenure there were little salary increases. CC not sure if this had to do with his talk with Herb. 

00:14:24	[no question] CC further discusses Gaumnitz and appointments. Faculty appointments made that CC think were weak people. CC reads a letter from the files – conversation between Flemming and Gaumnitz. School is heavily focused on accounting. 

00:18:44	[no question] Talking about how Herb should have resigned. More weak appointments made. No leadership from the top. Herb continued as dean until June 1972. 

00:23:14	[no question] CC remembers when he told Gaumnitz when he would retire. CC talks about Gaumnitz successors who only lasted a few years. 

0024:45	Question: Commerce Building demonstration? Answer: CC's observation of the Dow demonstration at the Commerce Building. CC went out to the Commerce Building – saw students sitting on the floor. CC tried to get through crowd – a police officer stopped him. A lot of nervous chatter from students after being told they were violating rules. Students getting pulled from demonstration by police.

00:29:19	[no question] CC continues talking about demonstration. Crowd started to become agitated. CC says he did not see any police violence, but another spectator, Professor Beck, says he did see police violence. CC says this difference in opinion is due to political differences.  

00:31:31	[no question] Comments from students in his class afterwards. CC and his class tried to put the demonstration out of their minds. Class was cut short that day.   

00:33:04	[no question] Later, seeing a police officer being spat on by students.  CC’s blood boiled.

00:34:48	[no question] The faculty meeting. CC very upset. Got Howard Westing to make response to Anatole Beck's account, because CC was so upset. A trial followed the demonstration. CC was asked to testify, subpoenaed – for protection.  Had some eggs thrown at house.  

00:37:45    	[no question] CC’s son, an undergraduate, upset also. CC's TA insisted not to give exams/grading, because everyone is so upset, give all students (200) A's. Many faculty did that – there was a lot of grade inflation after this demonstration. Not CC. Unhappy episode in history. CC comments that student protest a factor in ending war.

00:42:06	Question: Were your students involved in TA strike? Answer: No. His students not in TA strike. Business didn't have many TAs. Faculty had personal relations with them, which, in CC’s opinion, kept the Business School’s TAs from protesting.

00:44:41	[no question] CC on Kiekhofer's TA staff one year.  Ran football pool.  CC on committee, later, to make selection for Kiekhofer Teaching Award, after WWII.  One a year.  Mike Petrovich first candidate.  Both Rotary Club members.

00:48:45	Question: UW Faculty Association? Answer: CC's major contribution to UW. Took lot of time.  Started with the death of a faculty member – fellow faculty started gathering funds for deceased faculty member’s family. Life insurance program. Regents supported the idea, but the Regents said they had no money to give. Baird Taylor chaired committee, 1939.  Was CC's major professor.

00:52:49	[no question] Continues discussion of UW Faculty Association plan. 

00:53:59	End of side. 

Tape 3/Side 2

00:54:00	[no question] More on UW Faculty Association.  Regents required membership of new employees.  Ensured success of plan.  Automatic inflow of members. CC in insurance so was consulted by committee.

00:58:46	[no question] After WWII, CC elected to board and to presidency (1947). CC was the only one on the board who understood how insurance worked. Changing insurance company to National Guardian Life, after an unsatisfactory experience with another corporation.  CC discusses the arrangement.

01:02:28	[no question] CC talks about attending a life insurance convention. Used the convention to announce the UW Faculty Association was soliciting business. CC negotiated with insurance company – UW Board relied on CC to handle this business. That semester he spent more time with the UW Faculty Association than teaching.

01:06:47	[no question] CC discusses transfer to National Guardian. Prior partner did not allocate money in a way CC saw satisfactory. Improvements with National Guardian – increased death benefit schedule.

01:11:11	[no question] Talks about increases in death claims paid and amount received by UW Faculty Association.  

01:12:12	[no question] Original group of UW Faculty Association was male only. Group wanted women to strengthen insurance. Women didn't want to participate; more interested in retirement benefits. Discouraging first effort at including women in insurance plan.  Six years later, many women became interested. Changed definitions of persons in plan.

01:15:10	[no question] Second change occurred with integration UW and Milwaukee.  UW Milwaukee was automatically brought into program. Governance of Association changed slightly. No more than one board member from Milwaukee. With System merger, adverse selection problem. Wanted as many voluntary sign ups as possible. Faculty association Board reorganized.

01:19:31	Question: Are the problems solved? Answer: Most problems have been taken care of.  Remarkable cooperation with National Guardian Life officers.

01:20:42	[no question] Currently there is an experimental program.  Extra interest added to premium annually.

01:21:41	End of Tape 3. 

Tape 4/Side 1

01:21:42	[no question] CC continues talk about experimental program. Amount of insurance increased by 25%, paid for by interest income.  CC has worked to see that faculty has received what has been paid in, in benefits paid to deceased members' families. This is a source of his greatest satisfaction.

01:25:27	[no question] Association's name changed to reflect its insurance function. Added the word “insurance” to the name. Talks about how many board members had to be from outside schools. Discusses election process to select these outside members.

01:30:00	Question: Did you get any compensation? Answer: Non-profit organization; CC received no compensation.  Board members receive only travel expenses.  Women now included on board.

01:32:24	End of Tape 4. End of second interview session

END OF INTERVIEW #339