UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #294
LORENZ, REUBEN H.

LORENZ, Reuben H. (1922- )
Graduate Student; Vice President and Controller of UW System
At UW: 1947-1984

Interviewed: 1984	
Series: Merger
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length: 3 hours

Merger; Discontent with CCHE and reasons for its failure; Business office's involvement with Merger statute; Mistake of limiting salary range for executives and consequences; Advantages of Merger; Debate over location of System offices; John Weaver, Leonard Haas, Donald Percy and Donald Smith; Establishing central data bank; Budget control system; Running dormitories; Money-saving aspects of Merger; Enrollment funding formula; Expense of monthly chancellor's meetings; Excitement of Fred Harvey Harrington years; His relationship with regents; Regents' reactions to student demonstrations; Issues in development of computing from 1945 and people involved; Competing needs of UW and System; Financing instructional computing; Failure to computerize student registration; Patent issues. 

Tape 1/Side 1

00:00:30	Surprised at lack of research papers prior to merger.  Never any detailed analysis of cost effectiveness or impact on state.  A political decision.

00:02:10	Grew out of discontent with CCHE.  Very inefficient.  Their input into budget very ineffective.  Recalls meeting with Shain, then vice chancellor of Madison campus.

00:05:38	Shain's knowledge of budget.  Probably doesn't delegate enough.

00:07:20	Problems of CCHE staff due to removal from ongoing work of campuses.  System Administration has same problem.

00:09:35	First board meeting.  Membership.  Length of term.  Too large--16 members; reduces responsibility of individual members.  Sought after appointment.  Joyce Erdman's comment.  People want to be reappointed.  Chapter 36 of statutes redrafted by Merger Implementation Committee.  Members of committee.  What business office wanted in statute.  They look through the language every year to see if any changes need to be made.  This year changed amount of contingent fund.

00:17:13	Provision of salary ranges for executives a mistake.  Includes some staff.  Means some deans getting higher salaries since they weren't on list.  Makes it difficult to get administrators.  Administrators can't push for change.  Possible for regents to do it.  UW way behind other Big Ten institutions in pay for top people.  Example.  Difficulty of finding replacement for RL.  Not such a problem in beginning.  No perks, except for president and chancellors.

00:23:50	RL thinks merger has worked well.  Not sure Madison would have been as well off as is without merger, given mood of state in early 1970's.

00:26:00	Jerris Leonard.  Very bright.  RL worked with him.  Supportive of UW.  LS has heard Leonard responsible for putting remaining stories on Van Hise.  RL thinks Harrington responsible.

00:28:45	Advantages of locating System offices in Van Hise rather than off campus.

00:29:13	End of side.

Tape 1/Side 2

00:29:15	State College offices on East Gilman.  Advantage of Van Hise was board room of regents.  Meant being more in touch with campus.  Distance of Monroe Street office has created problems.  RL doesn't think Madison has been favored unduly for having System office on its campus.

00:33:10	Discussion of location of office branched off from earlier question as to evidence of legislator's feelings about protest movement.  RL doesn't remember specific remarks, but was aware of tenor of opinion on, i.e. Joint Finance Committee.

00:34:15	John Weaver.  His loyalty to and love for Madison.  Deserves credit for handling merger so well.  RL thinks System administration is best in country.  Did it by hiring good people, Don Percy and Don Smith.  Leonard Haas was executive vice president.  Never comfortable.  Loved Eau Claire, liked being head of Eau Claire campus.

00:37:30	Weaver's cabinet was himself, Percy and Smith.  Haas a wonderful person.  First job was pacifying chancellors.  Haas did that well.  Was replaced by Smith.  Didn't have same strong tie to UW.  Excellent choice.  Joy to work with.  Articulate; good understanding of finance, of higher education.  Prodigious worker.  Percy also.  Worked 15 hours a day.  Meant a lot of work from the institutions too.  The period when they were setting up central data bank.  Required work that hadn't been done before.  Too much.  Best in country, with possible exception of North Carolina.  Percy did a lot of it; financial people did part of it.

00:43:50	Set to work as soon as merger bill passed.  Lifted a lot from UW system.  No real problem.  A few places were recalcitrant.  Mentions gatherings of business people several times a year.  At beginning was "you" or "us", not now though.  Discussion of alignments.  Mentions period when WARF money going to Milwaukee, Parkside, and Green Bay as cause of antagonism, but otherwise generally not between the four original institutions.

00:48:40	The budget control system.  Year before Dreyfus elected governor, La Crosse and Stevens Point ran over budget.  Reduced next year's appropriation.  RL thinks was a testing of system administration.  Never any complaints.

00:50:30	Issues involved in running of dormitories.  Doug Osterheld's solution.  Creating incentives. Handling of segregated fees.

00:58:01	End of side. End of tape.

Tape 2/Side 1

00:58:10	Hostility between two systems before merger.  McPhee a good politician.  The emphasis on teaching in that period favored state college.  Influence of David Adamany, now at Wayne State.  The vote for merger.  Question regarding RL's recollections.  Regents expectation that it would be voted down.  Completely opposed to it.  RL thinks merger has saved money, i.e. less duplication.  Would have been more doctoral programs.  System Administration has been firm.  Eau Claire would have wanted a doctoral program.  CCHE budget was eliminated, saved money on that.  Madison was in doghouse.  Merger a protection.

01:06:30	Regents should have been given more flexibility in use of fees and tuition.  History of this.  Regents set fees and tuition but state sets amount of money that can be used from fees.  Discussion of this.

01:11:25	Enrollment funding formula.  A tool to measure cost effectiveness of different institutions.  Very complicated.  RL thinks it's a good one.  Not everyone agrees.  O'Neil not a strong supporter.  Describes it.  How it came about.  Doctoral institutions on different index.  Don Percy worked on it.  Composite Support Index is what it's called.  Others have used it around country.  Had to have good database.  Use of it for estimating future allocation of money, based on enrollment estimate.

01:21:00	Affirmative Action push for equal wages for women, etc., had no effect in budget office; too small a part of whole.

01:22:30	Question about relations of Madison and System administrative data processing.  The friction between Cyrena Pondrom and Marian Swoboda lay behind it.  Long rivalry on issue of what information should be released relating to affirmative action.  Is between state and system, and state and Madison.

01:26:05	Young had a cabinet that met regularly, ten people or so.  Too large.  All policy decisions cleared through that group.

01:27:03	End of side.

Tape 2/Side 2

01:27:05	Try to settle controversy on an issue before taking it into a meeting.

01:28:00	Costliness of monthly meeting of president and chancellors, with regents.  Chancellors value the meetings.  Meetings of other groups--risk management people, student affairs people.

01:31:51	End of session.

Tape 3/Side 1

00:00:15	Constructive kind of business in the 1960s.  General.  Centers all got federal funding, so not just sciences and engineering getting money.  Enrollment projections rosy.  So state put a lot of money in.  Loss of Eugene E. Van Tamelen and Bill Johnson to Stanford, but mostly kept good people.

00:03:45	Question regarding reaction to rapid growth.  Cites Milwaukee dorms.  Business office didn't see a market for them.  This is the first year they've been fully used.  Generally expansion made sense.  Some of Harrington's ideas didn't materialize.  Just as well, e.g. the second campus plan.

00:06:45	He wanted residence halls for 60% of students, e.g. blocks by University Square and where Vet Science is now.  These were FHH's ideas.  He didn't have cabinet meetings.  Met with Clodius.

00:09:10	Not an easy person to work with.  Not warm.  RL didn't have academic credentials.  But RL admired his brilliance; smartest person he ever knew.  After a slight briefing before meetings would be in command of all necessary facts.  Enjoyable to work with such a bright person.  Articulate.  Physically and intellectually talked down to people sometimes.  Got him into trouble sometimes.  Kept him from being as effective as he might have been.  Better to have too many than too few ideas.  Never talked down to staff people, but did at board meetings or legislative hearings.  People knew they couldn't compete with him intellectually, and it came through.  He didn't do it intentionally.  They'd feel their question was a stupid one.

00:12:15	He and Nellen didn't see eye to eye.  Nellen never an intellectual.  Arthur DeBardeleben liked Harrington respected his intellect.  Administration a necessary evil.  How he handled it. More effective regent in late '60s.  After merger got little support from other board members because of his mannerisms.  Usually right, but took positions in offensive manner so couldn't get board support.  Could have been a real advocate, strong supporter of faculty.  An example of how he talked to business officers.  An argument he had with Ben Lawton.  Nasty argument with Nellen in Green Bay once.  Opposed spending money on athletics. Also felt strongly about separation of state and religion.  Would come up in connection with gifts, or hosting of religious groups on campus.

00:18:30	If faculty approved something, he supported it.  Nellen completely intolerant of student protest.  Harrington a strong supporter of student rights.  Nellen couldn't see it.  Final blow in their relationship.  The demonstrations at regents' meetings.  Administrators used to it but traumatic for regents.  They thought Harrington should have thrown them out.  RL thinks board was split on the issue.  Faculty were there supporting students, advising them.  An interesting time.  

00:23:50	Cafferty got along well with Harrington.  Exciting person to be around.  Couldn't help but like him.  Much warmer and more relaxed now.  Question re Fred and Elvehjem.  Discussion.  Elvehjem still a working scientist while president.

00:27:37	End of side.

Tape 3/Side 2

00:27:43	Elvehjem found it difficult to relate to, e.g. Joint Finance Committee.  He would try to be 'the University President'; didn't go over well.  In a scientific discussion, fine.  But couldn't sell the University as a whole easily.  Elvehjem worked primarily with Peterson and Baldwin.

00:30:45	RL not sure of whom Fred worked with.

00:31:45	Business office reorganized several times.  1962 may have been time when Peterson "removed himself" from all but buildings and their funding.  But not a major change, an evolution.

00:34:40	Harrington planned that Milwaukee would replicate Madison campus, but emphasizing urban affairs.  Arranged to have some of WARF annual grant go to Milwaukee.  Wanted it to be UCLA of Wisconsin.  Parkside and Green Bay to be same--modern research institutions.  Parkside, science and industry; Green Bay, environment.  Expected to have 20,000 students.  4,000 to 5,000 now.  Not really research institutions.  RL was always optimistic.  Coordinating Committee on Higher Education (CCHE), 1968 estimates of enrollment made it seem reasonable.  Expected 200,000 by 1980s for state.

00:39:30	Business office not sure it would happen so fast but thought it would happen and tried to make it possible.  If Milwaukee had had enough money put in might have been able to hire top scientists.

00:40:45	Q. re split between Madison and Central Administration.  Real break was when Harrington moved to Van Hise.  Harrington still ran Madison when he was in Bascom Hall.  Became clear cut then.  Milwaukee just a satellite campus until 1965.

00:43:45	Discussing when Madison business office split off.  Atwell.

00:45:00	Atwell had some problems as business administrator.  Didn't see institution as whole, or how Madison fit into hierarchy.  Is about to become vice president of American Council of Education.  Not a tower of strength, and within Madison not an evenhanded administrator, favored some colleges over others.

00:50:45	Met often with Clodius, Lemon, Cafferty on budget.  

00:52:15	Computing.  In 1947 were on punch card system for accounting.  Payroll computerized in 1946.  Cafferty and Lorenz felt had to be current in computing, working closely with IBM.  Historically UW always in forefront of colleges and Universities in applications for business office.  IBM led in field at that time.

00:54:14	End of side. End of tape.

Tape 4/Side 1

00:54:20	Rented rather than bought because of rapid obsolescence of equipment.  Wise decision.  CDCs and Burroughs more appropriate for academic computing and gave big discounts.  

00:57:15	The Expand Committee.  Representatives of hospital and business office.  Trying to go on line.  Trying to hook up to IBM 360s but top administrators not ready to accept it.  Percy and Shain opposed it.  Ted Wiese, the University Administrative Data Processing man, was overly aggressive.  Turned them off.  Now all done, but could have been done five years earlier.  RL and TW developed it together.  Wiese on cutting edge of what was going on.  Very good.  Had to keep reins on him.  His position now.

01:02:00	LS shows RL an unsigned memo, from archives, reflecting concern for campus autonomy.  RL guesses Atwell wrote it.  LS cites memo from Bock to Shain re difficulty of getting data from ADP and UADP.  RL not aware.

01:05:00	Problem of trying to develop comprehensive data base.  ADP and UADP probably trying to protect own turf, e.g. personnel records.  And perhaps concern for protecting ones job.  Part of problem was that computing was shifted to Madison which had most of need and most of resources, but then couldn't accommodate needs of other campuses.  Shain felt other institutions would put demands on data processing that Madison would end up paying for.  Also that there would be demands on time of Madison program people and analysts.  Now wouldn't be as much of a problem, so a little more potential for consolidating.  But would have been better for system if had had a single high powered computer system.  Would have been most efficient.   Talked about in the 1960s, and right up to time of merger.  Milwaukee debating whether should have own; more economical to be tied in with Madison.  But Madison not willing to have deans have direct line into system computer.  Wanted deans to report to chancellor.  Now System Administration has its own computer, and Madison computer handles Green Bay, Parkside, Milwaukee, and centers.  A lot of duplication.   

01:12:25	Question re freeze Percy put on purchase of computers.  Discusses the issue.  A bad rule.  Had to back off.  Interim Guidance Committee never accomplished anything.  Represented too many different groups. 

01:14:20	The committee on computer, 1970, financing a different group.  Discussing general discontent that lay behind Percy's dictum.  No one person had total picture.  Student records and business records were separate, so differences of priority even there.  Who has priority during registration work?  

01:17:00	Madison pathetically behind in student registration.  Top administration doesn't give it top priority.  Chancellors have responsibility for some of lag.  Wiese and Shain didn't hit it off, so he was bound to go when the two systems were merged.  Katter not easy to work with, but had good ideas.  Didn't get administrative support.  

01:20:25	RL in on financial arrangements for MACC.  Thought they handled it well.  LS citing Percy comment re poor management of MACC by Mervin Muller.  Muller was an expansionist.  

01:22:25	End of side.

Tape 4/Side 2

01:22:30	And got some equipment in at good prices.  May have played a little free and loose with money.  Discussing his departure. 

01:23:50	Q. re Stefferud survey.  RL not involved. 

01:24:15	Q. re RL memo re failure to finance instructional computing.  Muller was running deficits because was supporting instructional computing but not getting reimbursed for it.  RL proposed various ways of handling financing.  Not handled  consistently.  Still not, but solvent now.  LS cites Princeton system of not charging departments; charged on indirect cost basis.  Drove their indirect cost rate up to over 90%.  Frowned on by Washington.  One system.   Discussion of grants and indirect cost arrangements. 

01:27:20	How important did RL think the whole computing area.  Just one of many.  Not particularly onerous.  Had to keep working on it, fast growing, many alternatives.  Not all that bad.  Could have done a lot more than has been done in last fifteen years in administrative area, but are doing better than most places.  Everyone affected by computing.  UW a leader in it.  Able to do more analytic work than most schools.  

01:30:55	Patents a very isolated issue.  Q. re the patent involving Charles Heidelberger.  RL discusses the problem.  Only .1% from Federal Government.  Petty of government, but there was a contract which UW violated.  Now agreements with PHS and NSF as to patent rights.   Government agencies that are less easy to work with than these.  Some of the interesting discoveries requiring patents.  RL would travel to Washington with the inventor.  

01:38:18	End of interview.

END