UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #388
CRAWFORD, HELEN

CRAWFORD, Helen (1906-1994)
Librarian, Middleton Health Sciences Library
At UW: 1945-1972

Interviewed: 1978		
Interviewer: Judith Overmier
Length: 3.5 hours

Background and education; Employment at Iowa State; Graduate work at University of Chicago; University of Wisconsin Medical Library; Role of mentor; Health matters; Marital status; Medical Library service; Regional libraries; New building; Medical Library Association (MLA) activities and articles; Certification; MLA issues and committees; MLA Board; Presidency of MLA; History of Medicine; Preservation; Experiences as consultant.

First Interview Session (1978): 
Tape 1/Side 1
Time	Keywords

JO:	Judith Overmeier, speaking, this is an interview with Helen Crawford on November 21, 1978, taking place in the historical collection of the Middleton Medical Library. 
00:00:08
	I'd like to start at the beginning when you first were a young girl starting your education and considering various professions. You were a young woman in a time and place when most women didn't seek higher education. What influenced you to enter college, to seek a career?
HC:	Well, there was never any question. I was the youngest of three. Our parents were both college graduates. We were simply expected to go to college. There wasn't any question of that. And I can remember as a child I used to say that I would be a teacher, because my parents were both teachers. But I don't know exactly when I slid into the expectation of library work. I never got very far away from a library because my father had a large book collection. I was inquisitive about books somehow. And as I say, I didn't make a dead set to be any particular thing, but I'd slide in sideways, as it were, into these situations. (Chuckles) They seemed to make themselves. 
00:01:20

JO:	You had started out as a German major?
HC:	Yes.
JO:	That was your original degree?
HC:	I had no particular interest in science. In fact, I had no biological sciences in college. I majored in German, partly because I liked languages and partly because the head of the department was a long-time friend of my father's. And so I took a course in German. And I never regretted it because -- aside from science --. The sciences and the languages are probably the best tools you can have. I have never been in a library that had very many people who had even cataloging German, much less the ability to read at a meaningful level.
00:02:14
JO:	But when you first graduated, you didn't start working in a library?
HC:	No, as a matter of fact I worked a year before I went to college because my parents thought I was too young. I had skipped a grade. Then I worked a couple of years afterward to earn money to go on. Now remember, it was back in the late 1920's. And I went to Simmons because my brother was teaching at Harvard at the time, and I thought it would be a good idea to add a little Eastern polish to my Midwestern experience.
00:02:50
JO:	How did you happen to decide to go back to library school? Was there someone at work or someone that suggested that?
HC:	No, I had intended for some years to be a librarian, and I had to go to library school. And, of course, the nearest library school at that time was in Minnesota or Michigan. But I felt if I was going away from home, it was a good idea to go a little bit further.
JO:	And how did you choose the one in Simmons -- by perusing catalogs?
HC:	Well, no. I knew it had a good reputation. As I say, I was interested particularly in going to Boston at that time.
JO:	Because your brother was there. And how about the program that they had then?
HC:	Well, it was the good basic program. I think we had extremely good work with their instructor of cataloging. She was one of these serious conscientious New Englanders. In all our course work, Reference as well, we were drilled very thoroughly. So what we did learn, we remembered. A friend of mine from the class who had come over from Radcliff, intimated it was kindergarten work, because the first semester at least was very thoroughly supervised and gave no room for initiative or originality. 
00:04:26
	But then, after our practice work, which I spent at the Worcester Public Library -- It was my one experience in public libraries in all these years. We reported on that, and then we were given a little bit more leeway next semester, and we rather resented it! (chuckles) We had to pick for ourselves!
JO:	The courses and things you took were practical?
HC:	Yes.
JO:	They were actually --
HC:	And administration was -- I don't remember that administration was taught as a separate course. We had really very little on the problems that come up in administration -- building, planning the budget, personnel, in particular. And it was all book work. So, we came out of library school at that time, most of us, quite naive about what we would consider the basics of administration. Because of course most people didn't go into administrative jobs. They kind of worked their way up.
JO:	Became catalogers and reference librarians?
HC:	Or children's librarians. That was a strong one. 
00:05:42
JO:	Then later on when you went to the University of Chicago, did you find that the program there was quite different?
HC:	Yes, it was. It was definitely graduate work. We had a great deal more, and we wrote more papers. The class discussions were good, because there were a good many people with experience. I remember the then librarian of a special collection in Chicago, (she has been librarian at Oberlin for years) was a member of one of my classes. She contributed a great deal of practical wisdom.
JO:	In the classes at Chicago?
HC:	Yes. And, of course, there were some famous names there. I had one course briefly with Douglas Waples, and Carnovsky. He or who was the man who taught me history --  history of the book. And I took one course over in the graduate school on bibliography. It was really the basic bibliographical course for graduate students in European history. And I've been grateful for the background I received. Joeckel, of course, has been a very pervasive influence. And I think he was one reason for my coming to Wisconsin, because he was a Wisconsin graduate, which is always interesting. (Chuckles) He sent me up here.
00:07:17
JO:	When you first graduated from Simmons, then you came back to the Midwest?
HC:	Yes.
JO:	And started working at the University of Iowa?
HC:	No, Iowa State University. Iowa State College. It was a cow college. And Iowa has a system with only three state universities -- their former teacher's college, the University and Iowa State -- so they have been able to concentrate their resources. And you have to admit, that each of those institutions gained in budget and influence, because they didn't dissipate their funds with colleges all over the state. 
00:07:59
JO:	Well, was the job market good then so you were able to choose to go there?
HC:	That was 1931. I think most -- I know one classmate of mine went over to Harvard at $1,500 a year.
JO:	Oh.
HC:	I had worked as a research assistant at this library that she started at.  Well, I would have hated to be buried at a department library, that I thought a great slum, at the time. But I went out to Ames in the sixteen hundreds. Fortunately, I got a raise to seventeen hundred and something the next year, and that was my salary for the rest of my years there. At the depression, 1931 to 1945, nobody got an increase. 
JO:	This was due to inflation and the depression. 
HC:	And, if you had a job, you kept it. But I enjoyed my work. I acted pretty much as an assistant to the librarian. I did a lot of editing with him.
JO:	Yes, and who was the librarian then?
HC:	Charles Harvey Brown.
JO:	Oh, Charles Harvey Brown.
HC:	He wrote the book on circulation work in college libraries, and all those articles. I did a great deal of editorial work with him.
JO:	Oh, that's good. Good background for a beginning librarian.
HC:	Yes. But another very good background -- Well, of course, I worked into that, but I didn't realize at the time. Iowa State classified all of the dissertations and theses, and that required a little knowledge about almost everything. (Chuckles) So I found I got some knowledge of botanical terms, chemical terms, zoological, educational -- the whole thing gave me a smattering of knowledge about terminology and a variety of occupations. And I audited some courses. For instance, the nomenclature and etymology, the historical background of some of these subjects.
00:10:07
JO:	So that was when you started taking --
HC:	So I began to develop an interest in the history of science. I also did some reference work for the veterinary people. I just gradually latched onto the idea that, well, I had never expected to finish my whole life in the plains of Iowa, and I began to think about other things and medical library work seemed most appealing.   
JO:	So you actually thought it over and chose to go into medical library work?

HC:	I did. I just drifted into it.
JO:	I think everybody does. (Laughs) So then that was when you chose to leave Iowa and go back to graduate school?
HC:	Well, I had gone back. I had gone one summer for my vacation.
JO:	To Chicago?
HC:	Yes, and then one other quarter and then went two quarters. Yes. By that time I was getting rather fatigued. I was really rather bored with the job. Dr. Brown was very active in ALA, and I assisted with a lot of his statistical work and the writing he did at that time. 
00:11:36
	So I was familiar with other association activities; and, of course, he was co-chairman with Eileen Cunningham of the German Periodicals Committee. He was very active, and he   the price of German periodicals.
JO:	Then had you met Eileen Cunningham at that point?
HC:	I met her at a meeting.
JO:	So there was an early point of contact with the medical librarianship?
HC:	Yes, and at some point in there -- I don't know just when - I had the feeling it was at the ALA midwinter meeting. But I can remember after the meeting that Eileen Cunningham and Margueriete Prime and a few other people were talking about recruitment, and I mentioned I had had breakfast with some people with some other ideas that morning and I was impressed by one of them. So I don't know whether I started her on her association career, but at least I found she was appointed to something shortly thereafter.
JO:	Oh, that's interesting. So you were active in the ALA then in those early years too?
HC:	Yes. We usually went to midwinter meeting which was an open meeting.
JO:	Was it in Chicago then -- the midwinter --
HC:	Yes, it was always in Chicago. And there was much more program content in those days.
00:12:56
JO:	Was that how you chose to start going during summer school those quarters at Chicago - you chose because you already were familiar with the city?
HC:	No, I knew a good deal about the faculty there, and Frances Kenney was a good friend of one of our staff members. When I was talking about it, I was thinking, perhaps, of Michigan, and she said, "Well, why don't you come to Chicago?" Well, I had always felt that Chicago, being a strong graduate school, was a little high powered for me, but I did go there, and I've never regretted it. It was a good experience.
JO:	Had you entered a program to get a further degree, or were you just taking courses?

HC:	Yes, it was a master's program. But I came up here in the middle of April after I'd finished the two semesters, without having written my thesis. I never wrote that thesis, and nobody here has worried about it, and I was too busy to worry. (Chuckles)
JO:	To worry about it.
HC:	I used to feel that --
JO:	Joined the ranks of hundreds, who --
HC:	I had a bachelor's degree and the course work for a master's.
JO:	And even then that --
HC:	And even then I was concerned with the interlibrary loans out of the Chicago Libraries. The University of Chicago of course did tremendous interlibrary loan load. And I was interested in where the requests came from and where they went, and what kind of materials were requested and so forth. And that's where I met Wilma Troxel. Here I was just a crummy student coming in, and she took me -- Of course, Illinois had a very grubby library at that time. As you know, for many years it was even worse off than we were in Madison. But they took me in, and I remember having a birthday cake with them one day, and I've always respected that library because of their generosity and kindness.
JO:	So, in a way they served a mentor role for you at that juncture?
HC:	Yes. Of course, that's before I had accepted, had been offered the job here.
00:15:05
JO:	While you were a student at Chicago, did you work part time in the library or anything?
HC:	No. I did get a tuition fellowship, which helped.
JO:	So you were going to school full time.
HC:	No. You remember this was at a salary -- I think $1,750. Of course, I had more money that I ever had. (Chuckles) It wasn't until the year I moved here that finally -- I received more than $2,000. They made an arrangement for an annuity system -- and additional money would go into the annuity.
00:15:38
JO:	Well, how does it fit in, that you came up here? Did they recruit you?
HC:	Yes. They wrote the dean.
JO:	And then you said before that he was from Wisconsin.
HC:	Yes.
JO:	And did you know at that time Gladys Ramsey?

HC:	No.
JO:	Who had been the librarian herself?
HC:	No. For seven years she went to library school, and when she got her degree, she accepted a job. I think that's when she went to MIT. And another of her staff members was librarian briefly for a couple of years and then left. So I came in after her. But I was the first academic appointment.
JO:	Okay. There's one in between. That must have been after 
HC:	Ericka Erwin. 
00:16:24
JO:	So they recruited you, and the dean sent you up here? I see there was another name, I found in the old books, a Mrs. Minne G. Loevenhart?
HC:	Loevenhart, yes. Her husband had been the head of pharmacology. He was quite a noted pharmacologist - a very charming person. So she had been the circulation librarian for years. She was a little person, knew everybody at the medical school. She was, I think, rather distrustful of the catalog, but she knew every book in the library. Alumni coming back, still ask about Mrs. Loevenhart.
JO:	So when you came, there were two of you?
HC:	There was a trained librarian running the medical library service. She was from the extension department, and she did what reference work there was. But we were just treated as if we had -- The library was a kind of afterthought, because when they built that building with leftover funds from the Veterans' Bonus I think it was, from the First World War, they discovered they needed a Physical Therapy department, so this central library here was taken over for physical therapy, and the library was put on the periphery with a corridor down the middle, so we were broken into pieces -- stairwells in between. And we gradually permeated out into every available space. We took over -- first a piece of the lobby, for Dr. Ackerknecht -- he was a professor of the History of Medicine. And then we eventually moved into that office and permeated out in the rest of the lobby (Chuckles). We took over a classroom, upstairs. It was a fight against space over many, many years.
00:18:25
JO:	Was Dr. Middleton dean then?
HC:	He was dean, but he was on leave. He was chief medical consultant for the European Army in Europe. And Dr. Walter Meek interviewed me. He was a bland, well, a meek looking little man, but shrewd. I don't think he missed anything. So, I was here a couple of years before Dr. Middleton came back.
00:18:56
JO:	A lot of librarians seem to move around during their career, but you have always remained here. 
HC:	Well, it's always been my feeling -- I remember a colleague commenting that it didn't pay to bribe people. I accept jobs because I like to. I take it because I like the job and want to do them, and I can't think of any other place in the country that would give me more of what I wanted. I like a temperate climate. I like the physical advantages to Madison. I like the size of the city and also the atmosphere here. 
00:19:41
	It's unusually cooperative. You know, the type of comment that is often made in institutions -- the sneering comments of the scientists for the liberal arts people or the education people and so on. I don't think that exists so much here, because there has always been a great deal of cross cultural interchange. And since the Ag campus by accident of Babcock and a few of these early faculty members, they developed a big Biochemistry department. The medical school and the Ag school have always worked very closely together, because of it.
JO:	That's not typical, is it?
HC:	And microbiology also, Medical Microbiology and -- what's it called? Is it called Bacteriology? -- have worked very closely together. And --
JO:	You've always found it a warm nurturing place?
HC:	And I liked the medical school being on the same campus with the University, because there is an enrichment that you don't find in one of these big city institutions, divorced from its main campus.
JO:	Okay. I was very curious about that point. I think I understand clearly, why you enjoy your career here.
HC:	You're in really much the same situation.
JO:	Yes. It rings some familiar notes to me. 
00:21:14
	You mentioned the library when you first came here then was kind of burgeoning and spreading out everywhere and --
HC:	Well, at the time I came, it wasn't. It had just come to the point where it was no longer a nice little cozy, comfortable, small medical school. The research funds were somewhat in the future, but still this was a major research institution and not just a teaching school for medical students, and we simply aren't -- The demands and needs -- The willingness to support the library was there too, but we simply couldn't take on staff because we had no place to put them. There were many things we couldn't do for lack of space.
00:22:06
JO:	What was the collection size?
HC:	Well, the AMA directory at that time set it at -- I believe it was forty thousand. But I did an inventory and thought it was considerably more than that, but it was, perhaps, forty-five or fifty thousand. We had a large collection of unbound journals for our Extension work, which were really -- they were single sets and were not duplicates. But they were used like a bound collection. Then, of course, we had the two thousand volume William Snow Miller Library which the Medical School had bought in 1940 after his death.
JO:	Oh, I didn't know that.
HC:	And those were uncataloged. There were historical things in the collection, but more of that was added. But that really was the basis of our historical interest.
JO:	The patrons that you had at that time, then, they were mostly limited to the Medical School and the medical students?
HC:	Well, our journals, of course, were used by people from all over campus, as they still are. This is definitely a university library, and not just a medical school library.
JO:	Was there a large clientele then, a large circulation?
HC:	I don't recall what it was. I started keeping a record of a number of these things. We hadn't had a record of acquisitions or any continued record of circulation. It was considerable. It was a busy library, but our seating space was terribly inadequate.
JO:	How did those conditions affect your practice of librarianship, at that period? It must have been very different than what you'd had at Iowa, or at library school.
HC:	Yes. I was used to -- I had been at a larger institution where you handed something to a typist, or could take something to a secretary. (Chuckles) And I had no office typing except student assistants. And, so here I was with my student typist over on the windowsill. Anything there wasn't a space for backed up on me. So (chuckles) it was physically very hampering. I had a graduate student working for me one summer, and she was a rather precise type. She said she had learned one thing from that experience -- that you could be orderly without being tidy. (Laughs)
JO:	So you took that as a kind of compliment. (Laughs)
HC:	I think it was good for her, but, of course, she was good for me too.
00:24:46
JO:	Were you doing mostly what you would consider administrative things then, or in those early years did you have tours of duty on the reference desk and cataloging?
HC:	I tried to have a tour of duty on the desk, but I finally gave that up because I couldn't be sure enough of the time. But we always did our own book selection, but the orders had to go over to the main library. And we prepared our own binding. The Extension Service, of course, had been active for some years, at that time. So there really wasn't too much of a problem of administration, because there were only the three full-time staff members, plus student assistants.
00:25:39
JO:	And then, of course, after the War your library began to change and grow, much like all across the country.

HC:	Yes. I can remember at the time when Harold Bloomquist called to ask -- This was at the time we were pushing for Federal funds as a basis for all the service to all these research groups. He called and asked, "Well, how much more money could you use if you had it?" And just automatically I said, "We could use twice as much." And I believe that was the answer, throughout the country. (Chuckles)
JO:	What kind of changes then did you initiate?
HC:	Oh dear.
00:26:13
JO:	Did more staff come first or did you begin working on your new building then?
HC:	Well, we had several spurts working on a building. First, we were going to expand in the Medical Science building that was going to be built contiguous to the library. But their funds were split. Half was given to Anatomy, and half was given to Medical Science. A friend of mine was much wiser than I would have been at that time and felt that they shouldn't put the library in there, because it wouldn't be big enough. But it was a disappointment at the time. It turned out to have been wise, because we would have acquired just about enough to serve our then needs, with no possibility of expansion. 
00:27:12
	And then when we started planning a building, first they changed the site, and then they turned the building around, and then they did another change, and then they changed architects. So that building (chuckles) never came off the ground. It would have been an interesting building too. So finally, the alumni organized to build a building because Dr. Middleton wanted it. One of them said they thought he had holes in his head, but if he wanted a library, they'd get him a library. So they collected $250,000, which doesn't seem much by today's standards, but the legislature then gave $100,000. That's how this building happened to be built.
JO:	So it took you about fifteen years to get the building finally?
HC:	Well, we really started thinking about the building about almost as soon as I came, so it took us --
JO:	That was in 1946, was it?
HC:	In the spring of 1945. (Chuckles)
JO:	Do you think that being isolated here in the Midwest made this library develop at a different pace or in different ways than other libraries? 
HC:	I wouldn't say that it did. Our staff have always taken interest in the national picture. We attended regional groups. I think probably we approached it a little more freshly than Easterners because we weren't so much bound down by "we've always done it that way." That is a red flag to me. (Chuckles) I can remember a discussion onetime years ago with Mary Louise Marshall about service to the public. Of course, now we consider patient education. And, she was very firm on this "mother knows best" attitude which again gets my back up. You have to have some controls and some judgment, but I don't believe in absolute prohibition of anything. Because very often what you need to do, you can do, and rigid rules are often self-protecting rather than promotional for the library service. (Chuckles)
00:29:39
JO:	When you first came here and started out, the new MLA Handbook had been out. It came out in 1943. Did you turn to that?
HC:	You know, I used it chiefly for references. It was very helpful at that time for a bibliographical aid, but I don't recall consulting the chapters particularly. I know I read it, but I had a background in a university library, and I think as far as ordinary routines go, I had a pretty good background. So I don't recall that medical library work was all that different, at that time. But I do think experience in a larger institution is very helpful, as an introduction, because you know of things that aren't in the collection.
JO:	There were no classes in medical librarianship or medical bibliography in Chicago?
HC:	Well, there were lectures. Different people had given lectures, and I used to give lectures to the (medical school) freshmen. But freshmen are very much preoccupied with their anatomy and their big exams, and they haven't seen the need yet for library resources. It seems to me that you usually get just a part of their attention at best, if it’s a required course, and if it isn't required, you don't have a very large group.
00:31:11
JO:	When you first came in those early years, did you encounter any problems because of the fact that you were a woman in a typical male medical school?
HC:	I wasn't conscious of that. I think in the administration I was accepted as capable in my field. And that is another thing that kept me at Wisconsin. I don't think you could find a more congenial environment. People are hired to do a job, and they're given the freedom to do the job. I never had the feeling of administrative pressure. If the faculty wanted anything, they told us. There was an easy interchange. Our faculty library committee did not, for instance, pass on separate books, but they did like to examine the journal titles before we subscribed, and I was very glad to have faculty input on that. But the freedom to experiment and try new things, whether they'd been done before or not, was always there. 
JO:	Can we take a break? 
00:32:31
Returning from our cup of coffee, I'd like to begin asking you some personal questions. Two areas of questions actually were brought to mind by sitting downstairs in your old office -- now Virginia Holtz' office: one having to do with personal questions and women in the profession and also the Medical Library Service, where she started out. So I think first off, I'll do the personal questions. First of all, I did find references to mention of a protracted illness, and I have no idea what that was, and I didn't know whether it was something that would be relevant to -- on your work in MLA, and the library, or not.
HC:	Oh, it's very relevant, because I had an advanced cancer of the colon. At the time -- this was in January, 1961, I had surgery, and one month later I went on to 5FU, which was invented by Dr. Heidelberger of the McArdle Cancer Research Laboratory just across the way.
JO:	What's 5FU?
HC:	5 Fluoro urethane, which is one of the basic cancer antagonists. It was still highly experimental, but it was felt that a lethal disease deserved a dangerous remedy. It was highly toxic, and I reacted with everything I had. But I was on treatment for 3 and a half years -- one month between, treatments for three and a half years, and it got to be very wearing. So they suggested a second look, went in and found nothing wrong. The first surgery was in 1961, and when I think of everything that happened after that -- the building planning -- As a matter of fact, when I was on treatment, I remember many occasions, when the last thing I wanted to do was to go in and discuss chairs for the library. But I had the feeling then, that anything good that happened to me, I had paid for in advance. (Chuckles)
JO:	Oh, that's a good philosophy. But you weren't on leave then? You continued your job?
HC:	I was out for several weeks. And then at the time of the Seattle meeting, I'd had a relapse, and I actually got out of bed to go take the plane to Seattle.
JO:	To Seattle. Those were the years you were on the Board? Were you on the Board?
HC:	I know I went in for surgery just about the time of the Board meeting in January of 1961. I remember Bob Lentz writing -- I think that was at the time of the decision on the opening of the central office. He wrote to say that he hoped that my opening was as successful as theirs. (Chuckles)
JO:	Oh, how delightful.
HC:	As a matter of fact, a few years later he went through the same thing, and we both survived very well. But when I think of everything that has happened since then, my presidency and some of these things, I have a great deal to be grateful to Wisconsin for, because they persevered with this treatment, though they knew it was highly toxic. And whether that could take the credit or not, at least I survived. And if I was one in eleven hundred, it makes a difference to be that one, and not one of the 1099.
JO:	Yes, definitely. Yes, I think a great difference. And quite a lot of people there like --
HC:	Van Potter, chairman of our library committee and our building committee, and I remember he said at that time, "Madison is the best place in the world to have cancer." (Chuckles) And I know for several years when I went to meetings, I'd have to have treatment at various centers, and the only doctor who knew anything about this cancer chemotherapy was out at Estes Park. He said, "Krebiozen?" (Chuckles) But it shows how slow these things are sometimes, in getting into general currency.
00:36:55
JO:	Well, that's just amazing. Another kind of personal question, I wanted to ask about marriage, because certainly it seems, I think, to people entering the profession today, that the library directors and past MLA presidents, a large percentage of them have been unmarried women. And I was curious to know if you had deliberately chosen to set out to be a career woman, and do you think that was --
HC:	No, it just happened. I think I would have been very particular about marriage. I'm rather a perfectionist in some things, and if I were interested in a man who said between he and I, I don't think I could have borne it. (Chuckles) And so it wasn't -- I think it was a choice between more or less perfection, on one side and one's profession on the other. It was not a deliberate choice. I'm sure if the right marriage had appeared on the horizon, that would have been the choice. But I believe, certainly in the early years it was a kind of either/or thing. You had to accept that if you married, you pretty much took second position.
JO:	You stayed home.
HC:	And I don't see how I could have done what I did with any other responsibilities, because my professional responsibilities -- the extra time, the building planning, the committees, all of these activities just would have been physically more than I could have handled. And you're investing not only your time and energy, but your psychic energy, and it's pretty hard to be devoted to more than one thing at a time. (Chuckles) You give first devotion.
JO:	You're dead right about the psychic energy. I think that's very crucial.
HC:	I have found all the way through, that I can't concentrate on three different things at once. I have a way of putting things on the track. Until I get one box car off the track, I can't think about the next problem. This is a problem in administration -- to be able to handle it, to keep everything pushing just a little bit, instead of concentrating on one thing and then concentrating on the next. It makes for a zigzag administration, which isn't the best, but again, it is part of your psychic involvement.
00:39:30
JO:	Do you think women's lib has made a difference, or do you think it will still be --
HC:	Well, I missed -- Wisconsin was on the examination list about the time I left here. And one of the last things I did was to set up a schedule of salaries. I think the average was between two to three thousand dollars under the average salaries of comparable people in the University Library, and most of their high level people are men.
JO:	Are men.
HC:	And I would stack our staff capability up with theirs, with the staff of any other library on campus. I don't believe that it's fully redressed yet, but I think as far as the balance goes, there's been some threat of disappointed candidates of bringing a claim, because men don't have an adequate chance at this building, but we do have quite a number of male staff members. We've kept it in mind. Ability is the important thing.
00:40:43
JO:	In your years as an administrator, have you noticed among the women that worked for you, that those that were unmarried were able to devote more energy -- especially psychic energy -- to their job?
HC:	Yes. I don't think there's much doubt of it. If you have a little child, obviously that takes precedent. I have found all the years that I have been working in libraries that the professional people -- I don't put it, are healthier than the others -- but they have enough commitment that they go work whether they feel like it or not, whereas the secretaries and typists don't always have that commitment.
00:41:20
JO:	One of the things you mentioned earlier was the director of the program in Chicago acting as a mentor and guiding you toward Wisconsin, and I understand that you played that role for Virginia Holtz in her career.
HC:	Yes. One of my best friends on campus was the director of the library school, and she used to feed good candidates to us. We had student assistants in a number of departments. So, Virginia came in as an assistant in our Extension Service. And then at the end of the first semester, the woman in charge retired, and Virginia carried that full time for the rest of the year.
JO:	While she was still in library school?
HC:	While she was still in library school. So we were able to get her position jacked up somewhat, her classification improved early because of this excellent experience and ability. So by being able to reward her in advance of any other offers, that was one way we were able to hold her here.
JO:	So, in a way you really had what you could call an old girl's network going here with the woman at the library school routing it?
HC:	And we have sent out any number of medical librarians from this library -- a former staff member went to the Arizona Medical Center. One is now at the American Dental Association.
JO:	What's the name of that lady over in the library school?
HC:	Rachel Schenk.
JO:	Oh, Rachel.
HC:	She was a classmate of mine at Chicago. We lived at International House. We used to play bridge together. (Chuckles) So she came up here once after I did.
00:43:28
JO:	I see. While we were mentioning Virginia Holtz again, and you say she had taken over the Medical Library Service. Now, I've been reading about that. I know you've been interested in it, because you've got a couple of articles on it. But, I guess I didn't realize, it was separate from the library when you came here?
HC:	No. It started out as a service jointly between the University Extension and the Medical School. But eventually the Extension gave up any contribution. We received the review books and exchanged journals from the Wisconsin Medical Journal. That was the sole contribution of the State Medical Association. So here we were with three staff members, and one of them pretty much devoted herself to that. Well, it seemed to me that if we could do it with our rather limited resources, any library in the country could have made some kind of effort at it. But I found there were very few. There was one where the state supported it - the medical library in New York. The other was at Iowa. Iowa was supported by the state. Ours was really the only organized service, under a medical school. So when I can't find any information, I collect it. I sent out a brief questionnaire about it. There was very little of this kind of service.
JO:	And this was the report then you made at the 1948 MLA meeting --
HC:	Yes, and I suggested that -- I gave this report on a very hot day in Philadelphia in 1947. It must have been close to - up in the 90's. Nobody was interested. So I gave this report full of carefully selected library statistics. I almost went to asleep myself, as well as the rest of the audience. That article was published in the Bulletin, and sank without a trace. I don't think I even had a request for it except from a library down in Brazil. 
JO:	I think we are at the end of our tape.  
00:45:48	End of Tape 1, side 1
Tape 1, Side 2

00:45:51

JO:	Why was it do you think that there was a lack of interest?
HC:	I think that people were too preoccupied with their own responsibilities. They had not enough staff, not enough money to do what needed to be done locally, and they couldn't conceive of expanding their scope. Of course, a great many of the private schools felt some responsibility to their alumni, but it was not highly organized. We didn't. This was not only pre-Xeroxing; it was pre-verifax. And material had to be lent on an interlibrary loan basis.
JO:	And this was that unbound duplicate collection.
HC:	Yes. So we had an unbound duplicate collection of journals which were -- most of them -- state journals, but we also duplicated the basic journals -- one hundred or so of the basic journals. They served most of the needs of our borrowers in the state. So here we were, limping along. We couldn't give as prompt service as we might be able to do now, but Dr. Middleton and the other dean, Dr. Bardeen, before him, felt that this was important enough that it was worth the investment. I'm sure it was responsible for our alumni support that got us this building, because the profession -- not only our graduates, but other medical people in the state -- appreciated what was done for them.
JO:	A good investment --
HC:	Ashland, Wisconsin for instance, didn't have much in the way of libraries. The ability to borrow from Madison has been a strong source of all kinds of support to us here. And the preceptor system too. These people had to keep up, for they were teaching students. All in all, I can't conceive of our living without it.
00:47:59
JO:	In those early years Milwaukee was the only other place with a medical library?
HC:	Marquette took care of that urban strip from Milwaukee to Racine/Kenosha. And Madison took care of the rest of the state. Illinois had very slow extension development, because they relied on AMA. This is not healthy, not keeping up, not investing money for your own needs.
00:48:31
JO:	Well, there's been a huge spurt of interest now in this service to the rural physician in recent years. Could you comment on why it was this idea has come into its own?
HC:	Well, I think they developed a feeling after the Bloomquist Report and the National Library of Medicine promotion, there came a point where they have begun to recognize --
JO:	Is it the Bloomquist Report?
HC:	Yes. Harold Bloomquist of Harvard sent out a questionnaire; he studied the status of medical libraries in relation, particularly to this increase in research support and research activities, --
JO:	Okay.
HC:	And reported that in the Journal of Medical Education back in 19 -- I have a reference here. 
00:49:24
	Well, Bloomquist also, but Scott Adams really did the report on medical library services and their development in the Journal of Medical Education in 1963. You see, this is on use and development.

JO:	And that report was very influential then?
HC:	Oh, I'm sure it was. For one thing, it was published in the Journal of the AAMC (American Association of Medical Colleges) and for another thing, the National Library of Medicine recognized this need to promote it, and they had the ear of legislators and of prominent executives, who would help with it. And, of course, as soon as there was money to be sniffed in the offing, my goodness, all of a sudden they discovered they could do something. They decided they should be doing what we had been doing at that time for 30 years.
00:50:17
JO:	I had a question here about form follows funding. Do you think the availability of that grant money, obviously had a big impact? Do you think it was people just jumping on the bandwagon? Are they going to drop it when the money goes?
HC:	No. I can't see that, because they find that for one thing, we have mechanical aids that we didn't have then. And more of it can be done on a clerical basis than on a professional basis. Now, computer tapes do for all of us what we don't have to do for ourself. Most libraries at that time had some sort of an index of important articles or an index of reference questions answered. Many of them actually indexed journals, in advance of Index Medicus. They did a great deal of duplicating work. And perhaps --
JO:	That's interesting. I had no idea.
HC:	And some of the reference services were very important. They had to be professional, it was very diffused, throughout the country. Also, I'm sure medical school administrations are more convinced of the need of these services in their association with the hospitals. Most of them have some kind of network arrangement, and the library is just part of this -- of the network.
JO:	And some medical schools, some of them have rural physicians' programs.
HC:	Yes. And more and more, it will be particularly more with the satellite medical training institutions develop. Because it's unfair to -- and I think this is probably happening in many cases, that the planners of a satellite program don't take the library into account at all. Some little hospital libraries had to provide service to the students and teaching physicians that they were not geared to do.
JO:	This sounds kind of like what's happening here at Wisconsin right now with the new Clinical Center.
HC:	Yes. Well, I'm sure it's happening in institutions all over the country. And we're not giving proper planning assistance to the school.
00:52:47
JO:	Your 1964 article that reported specifically on the Extension Service that Wisconsin had, that followed the year after the Scott Adams paper, was that what inspired you to record Wisconsin's story again?
HC:	Well, this was -- Alderson Fry had been consulted on this, and he got a report on what they were doing. This was a response. As you will notice, most of my writings have been what they call occasional papers, occasioned by some event. Somebody asked for a speech or they asked for information, I write in response to the occasion. I'm not spontaneous in writing. (Chuckles)
JO:	Except for, as you mentioned earlier, your article on the Xerox machine.
HC:	My article on the xerox machine. That just came out of sheer exhilaration. (Chuckles) As a matter of fact, that newspaper boy's card that we evolved for xerox charges, I think, is an original. We were the first one in the country to have a kind of coupon system to reduce the bookkeeping for Xerox transactions.
JO:	Do you still have that here?
HC:	No. Unfortunately, they waived it. Yes, I believe they still have it, yes but, they waived a good many of the audit requirements which were put in to satisfy the federal auditors on use of research funds. This was required to    the accounting methods. They escape those now.
00:54:29
JO:	How does your Extension Service, which I assume still must be continuing here, how does it relate to the Regional Medical Library?
HC:	Well, for a while when the Regional Medical Library was established in Chicago, the academic institutions represented on the Council, felt very inadequately treated. I think a good many of them had been giving this kind of service for years, and we felt we knew a little bit more about service to patrons of our own states than the Regional Library did. So, we met first at Indianapolis -- Mary Jane Laatz was a very strong supporter of this --, basically to discuss what could be done. Well, we found for one thing, we really had no idea of what the interlibrary loan load was, in this whole area. So, we wrote a questionnaire and sent it off to the -- I think it was thirteen or fourteen libraries -- and filled it out for several months -- kept a record of all their questions, from what kind of libraries, how it was answered, how many were in this work. But we kept these figures. We had beautiful figures from this study, and discovered that really a tremendous volume of loans that were not reimbursed, were sent out of all these state medical school libraries which had extension services. And I'm sure that had quite an influence on the accounting at the regional level. We were getting no funding at all this service. And now there is a kind of point system. The new accounting methods came in after I left, so I'm not very familiar with it. But there is a much better integrated system than there was. The state systems drain off a great volume of the more commonplace loans that don't have to go to Chicago or don't have to go on to the National Library.
JO:	So probably the level of service to the rural physician hasn't changed much. All the changes have been in your procedures.
HC:	Well the changes --. We prided ourselves on having long-time service. We used to have exhibits at the State Medical Association meetings. But with the changes that extend out, consultant librarians to the communities to advise the hospital library on development, or staff or handling of cataloging, and that kind of thing, we were very much chagrined to find how many areas didn't even know this service existed.
JO:	Oh.
00:57:27
HC:	So that personal consultation was a very important thing, and it has been continued ever since.
JO:	So it increased, then.
HC:	Yes. A number of people used it. The number of loans has -- well, I think it would have to be, when I left, something like seventy thousand a year. Around seventy thousand was our circulation over the medical school library desk, but it has increased about tenfold.
JO:	Yes. So the regional medical library program has helped?
HC:	Yes. It did help a great deal. You know, it's a great deal easier to expand service, than to reduce it. While we were in the old building, we didn't dare advertise too much. We couldn't handle any more. But after we got over here, we promoted by newsletters we'd send out with a list of books and all. We always did charge for the Xeroxing, as we felt that if we gave free Xeroxing, which was very often the tidbit that is offered to the borrower, it would be very hard to back up. Well, in recent year libraries have had to back up.
JO:	And the physicians?
HC:	The local libraries we asked, didn't object to the charge for Xeroxing and so on. Their great need was more support from their own administration, more budget support, secretarial support, space and all.
JO:	Yes. That kind of thing.
HC:	The money was there for the service, but it was from the individual physician, who didn't object to paying for the Xeroxing. So, we've always proceeded on the business of providing services that they can't get locally, and that at a reasonable charge.
00:59:20
JO:	You mentioned that the move to the new building enabled you to expand that particular service. I wanted to ask you some more questions about that new building, since you mentioned earlier all the numbers of years you've spent on various remodelings and buildings. A lot of people were building new libraries during that kind of a boom period, and I was curious, were your problems typical of those other libraries, too, do you think?
HC:	Well, I know a great many of them got federal funds. We finally gave up on that and went ahead without.
JO:	Oh, so yours was built without federal funds?
HC:	Without federal funds. We kept being deferred, and if we had had to wait another six months, there would have been a loud pop, and the whole place would have broken, we were so terribly jammed. 
01:00:12
	At that time, we felt it was time, again, for an administration change. For all those years the main library had been doing our ordering and cataloging. We did the book selection and, of course, gave the service at the other end. We felt that was a very soft spot in the operation. We couldn't tell a person to inquire if it has been ordered or it hasn't, and when it was likely to come. We had no control over these activities, and the priorities of the main library were naturally quite different from ours, particularly the need for speed. The loss of investment by obsolescence, as you know, is very great in medical books. So, as the Board of the library convened, we asked to take over our whole processing operations. The budget came over to us a year or two before. We were again spending our own funds, just having our own funds coming in.
01:01:20
JO:	You mentioned during coffee break that when you first came, there was no budget.
HC:	There was no real budget. I had no statistics. I didn't know how many volumes we had. I remember keeping a record of that first six months or so -- sixteen hundred volumes. (Chuckles)
JO:	When you were writing the early budgets, were you turning them into the medical school?
HC:	I didn't. The first one was prepared by the superintendent of the hospital.
JO:	That must have been interesting. (Chuckles)
HC:	Yes, it was a very odd distribution of funds. But then I asked to do it, and finally we began to get a bigger allotment.
JO:	But then you just mentioned that you got the budget back from the Memorial Library?
HC:	Yes, the book budget.
JO:	Somewhere along the line that part had been switched?
HC:	Yes. That was switched over. And then the medical school had always provided personnel and all the space, and all our pencils and typewriters were from the medical school.
01:02:22
JO:	But the book budget came through the library?
HC:	Yes. And so, the library committee asked for a consultant, who would be a consultant with the main library, and so Louise Darling came to serve as our consultant and recommended that we were very definitely of a size and at a stage, where we should have control of our own operations. We felt that as long as we had the specialists here to do reference work and so on, that if we could have the necessary reference tools, that we could probably do a better job of processing.
JO:	You were in the new building then when Louise Darling came?
HC:	Yes. And with great effort I managed to hold out for enough work space so that we could take it over without too much congestion.
JO:	So that was another service that your new building allowed you to expand. Did you talk a lot with the other librarians who were building then about the various features?
HC:	I visited buildings -- not on a special tour, but whenever there was a need for a meeting, I would visit the building and talk with them and get their advice on space and equipment.
JO:	What kind of things worked well?
HC:	Yes.
01:03:39
JO:	How is your library different than those you visited?
HC:	Well, it's a very receptive library. I can remember when Sam Hitt visited, because he said "I've been in enough libraries that I know when I first step into a building, whether this is a place where nice things happen." And that's one of the nicest things that's been said to us. It's a very tranquil building. One of its great virtues, I think, is the traffic arrangement so that every corridor serves two purposes -- offices on one side, stacks on the other side. It's physically a library from the moment you step in. It has windows for the soul. All the meeting rooms are on the window side, but the staff also have windows. I'm very strongly of the opinion that the people that spend the longest time in the library have the right to --
JO:	To look out.
HC:	At least people facilities. (Chuckles) There's practically -- if you wanted to go from, say, the card catalog at one side to the reading space -- there's very little cross traffic. It has proved to be quite a flexible building, because it doesn't have too many walls. The walls have been put up since, to subdivide it for more offices, but nothing has had to be added that we didn't know would have to be added.	I remember when Virginia Holtz and I worked together on it, at the time I said it would be adequate for about six years, and that has proved true. We're bulging at the seams right now.
JO:	Your central core was also an innovative idea for libraries, wasn't it?
HC:	Well, I think it was certainly getting to be fashionable -- the central core, with all the water going down the middle with very little access, and very little possibility for the water to flood in the book space. The elevator and all the facilities were in the middle.
JO:	The main electrical --
HC:	So we were able to get away with just one elevator. -- It's right around the corner from Processing. One thing I'm proud of is the little area just outside the librarian's office and Processing and close to the public services for the acquisition bibliography -- the Books in Print and all the rest of that paraphernalia. it always annoys me that a library when it closes at night, closes up all these services. Our users are perfectly capable of looking up a book in the book index. We put it there where they can get at it. 
JO:	Oh, great. I never thought of that. You're right. We lock ours up too.
HC:	And we changed immediately to NLM classification. There's a certain virtue in changing the classification every now and then. The main library had changed from Cutter to Library of Congress. Cutter was so inadequate that the classifiers spent most of their time trying to find which inappropriate place to put a book. (Chuckles) And then we switched over to NLM.
JO:	Was yours Cutter previously, also?
HC:	No. It had been Library of Congress for ten years, so we have this big section of older books which we moved up in the historical section and then the Library of Congress section, a good deal of which would still be there, because a book on education or bacteriology or biology would be in that section. So we were able to use NLM copy without change. When we moved over, we changed our subject catalog for reverse filing so that the latest books are first behind the subject cards. Then we don't have the over typing of subject heading. That is extremely useful because you don't have to --
JO:	What made you do that?
HC:	Well, for instance, a book on the appendix, you'd find the latest book filed first, and the oldest book would be back here in the back. People want the newest book --
JO:	Oh, okay. You don't mean just editions?
HC:	No.
JO:	You mean the actual --
HC:	Actual reverse order by date. So that, I was asked one time for the treatment of typhoid fever about 1920, and I could just look and find a book published in 1920.

JO:	Back.
HC:	It is dangerous if anything is misfiled. It'll never be found again since it is not alphabetical.
JO:	Was this your own idea or is this -- I have never heard of it before.
HC:	I think Colorado used that.
JO:	Would that have been Frank Rogers?
HC:	No. That was before he went there.
JO:	That was before that? 
01:09:04
	What year was it that you moved into this building?
HC:	Well, we actually fully moved about the first part of 1966. We moved reserves and the Historical Collection over earlier.

JO:	So then it was in about 1966 when you changed from the LC to NLM and began this new filing?
HC:	And worked out a very good system for the transition. Virginia and the associate librarian at the main library were a committee of two to plan.
01:09:39
JO:	What was Virginia's position here in --?
HC:	She was an associate librarian.
JO:	Okay.
HC:	And in charge of Reference. So that they had elaborate flow charts and plans, and I think the transition went very well.
01:09:53
JO:	I've heard people remark on the difficulty of working with architects in building libraries. Did you experience any of this?
HC:	Well, our difficulty was with the university architect, because I think basically he distrusted the ability of a woman to plan a building. And I think that he distrusted my figures. We really fought tooth and nail for instance, for work space. And I thought they interfered with matters that were really of a professional concern and not just architecture. But we had our own library committee. And when Dr. Potter came in as chairman, he was very much the scientist, impartial, in the middle. But in a couple of weeks he was right over in our camp because he saw it made sense. It was not an easy time. For instance, this major matter of work space and of room for journals, say -- The then state architect said, "You keep talking about journals." And I said, "Well, we have, say, two thousand of them." "Oh, there are not half a dozen good architectural journals in the world." One time, I was questioning some figures about the number of volumes the building would hold, and he said, "Well, where did you get your figures?" And I said, "Well, with the yardstick and the adding machine." That's the only way you could do it. It was a building being planned for this collection and not for some public library. (Laughs) But I got a great deal of help from lots of colleagues. I visited. I studied plans from all over. I believe our plan was about as functional as it could be. We decided to spend all the money necessary to get all the building we could, and we left other matters of equipment and so on, more up in the air, because building is the most permanent. Other things can be added later --
JO:	Can be handled later.
HC:	But we didn't sacrifice beauty to economy. The university architect's office and the designers over there were very much convinced of the need for quality, especially in a building contributed by alumni. It's very easy, for instance, to buy a sturdy chair that's clunky, but to find a sturdy chair that is graceful is another matter. Every chair for this building is upholstered. We`ve had nursing students and six-foot medical students -- had all of them try our chairs. And so I think it's a very welcoming, comfortable library.
01:12:54
JO:	Was this when you became particularly interested in equipment?
HC:	Yes.
JO:	Did this course you taught - did it come out of that?
HC:	We were beginning to think, although we hadn't gotten very far along with it. That course (Equipment Refresher Course at MLA in 1959) was rather peculiar. It was quite a miscellany. I remember Gertrude Annan was in it and then there were some little hospital librarians, so the range of background at a continuation course at that time was even more extensive than it is now. I think now some of them are earmarked for people who have had preceding courses, or for large institutions or small institutions. But I can remember telling the story that the previous director of the library school had been talking about the need to buy good equipment. He said when you open your desk there's nothing worse than pulling and tugging tight drawers. (Laughs) Well, I told that story, and there was not a glimmer from the group. I thought, well, I'm in the wrong place here. (Chuckles) But I did have a Canadian hospital librarian say that my advice had been crucial to her, in something to do with buying typewriters, so I think some people profited.
JO:	Profited from it.
HC:	One doesn't always know what that pebble dropped in the brook is going to hit. (Chuckles)
01:14:21
JO:	Did your participation in the medical school libraries group -- They had a panel on planning of better medical school libraries. Did that evolve out of your experience in building this building?
HC:	Well, yes. I was asked to be on the panel because I had been busy on it and Ralph Esterquest organized that panel, too. He was consultant to our building.
JO:	Oh, he was a consultant for your building too?  
01:14:55
	You also had a chapter on the pursuit of flexibility. That too, I imagine, grew out of your experience.
HC:	Well, I think every building has evidence of its predecessor in the emphasis given to certain aspects. If you'd had very short meeting room space, this means the new building will be much more adequate for meeting space. So there's a kind of reaction there, against your previous restriction.
01:15:30
JO:	Another of your articles was on centralization versus decentralization. Now I assume this also grew out of your experience of becoming independent from the main library?
HC:	I felt that there was practically nothing written about it. Mildred Jordan in her article many years before had queried some people, but there were actually very few figures about what went on. So I sent out this very simple questionnaire about whether they were organized and whether they had control of the budget, processing, ordering and so on, and I got practically one hundred percent response, which indicated the interest throughout the country.
JO:	Everyone.
HC:	I think actually that was my most influential article. A number of people have told me that it assisted or was crucial in getting their own independence. And at that time there was a university librarian that commented that he didn't know any decentralized libraries, and I couldn't contradict him in a public meeting, but I was appalled to find that there was so little knowledge in the counties. Departmental division of libraries throughout the country worked.
JO:	And has your experience with the decentralization supported your belief?
HC:	By all means, particularly since there has been great development in the internal work. The CATline has provided all of these classification aids. Because we were just not plugged into the right system if we were connected to the main library. And if we hadn't made these changes when we did, it would have been a tremendous job to turn around, for instance, the change of classification again. And to get in line with the computer system.
JO:	Do you mean on Medline?
HC:	Yes, with the Medline and those other services. 
JO:	Your whole University of Wisconsin belongs to some kind of a regional library network, too, doesn't it?
HC:	There are several layers in the state university system. They all belong to a council of librarians; these institutions belong to a council. There is also a reference network, whereas they support a staff member to come in to do reference services to the different libraries on campus and send them material. We send ours out directly, but a public library, for instance, might ask for something that was over here. It might be routed to the searcher. But in general, we deal directly with libraries as well as individuals.
01:18:31
JO:	Now that the libraries are using OCLC and they're working on the authority files, you are in their union catalog at the main library here, but you use different subject headings. Isn't this going to cause a problem?
HC:	Well I think the subject headings or subject cards are no longer sent over. I'm not sure they are used. That goes back ten or twelve years, and I've forgotten the details. 
JO:	I guess I was thinking in terms of, is that centralization versus decentralization a continuing problem, one that you have to keep fighting because they keep trying to absorb you back into the system?
HC:	No, I wouldn't say it works that way. Unless, I know one institution, the university librarian was bound he was going to reabsorb the medical library in, and he did temporarily, but the medical school faculty fought it and decided to be completely independent. No, I think the main libraries usually find that it's such a relief, not to have to hassle as much with department libraries, that they can use the money for their own purposes. And we've always had a very cooperative basis with all the department and division libraries on campus. But it was simply essential for the health of this library to become a unified being instead of a dependent one.
01:20:06
JO:	I note that several of the articles that we've been talking about -- the building and extension and decentralization -- have grown out of your administrative experiences, and you did mention that a lot of your articles were occasional articles. Does this reflect some of your philosophy of the purposes of the library literature?
HC:	No, it simply reflects the situation. Without a deadline, it's very hard to sit yourself down and write something that needs to be done, that you think needs to be written. And this latest paper on library ethics was a matter of selection. Beatrix Robinow asked me to come up to their regional meeting in Hamilton and let me select the topic. This was the topic that I had been concerned about for many years. I'm at a point that I can afford to stick my neck out without endangering my future reputation for soundness. (Chuckles) It's always a pleasure to be a little old fashioned and return to some of the bases of our basic philosophy of our services. I didn't perhaps, say enough about the internal ethical problems. It's concerned mostly with the attitude of the library towards its users.
JO:	Now the meeting you gave that at was a Canadian regional of MLA?
HC:	It was in the upper part of New York.
JO:	Upper New York. 
01:21:49
	That kind of brings us around to your activities in MLA itself. When and where was your first MLA meeting?
HC:	It was at New Haven in 1946. Dr. Fulton (John Farquhar Fulton, M.D.) was very prominent at that meeting. And we decided, I think, that Mary Louise Marshall was finishing up her after-the-war three-year term.
JO:	Oh yes, that was the first meeting after the war.
HC:	I don't remember too much of the detail of that meeting. I do know that Marion Dondale (Marion F. Dondale) from Albany and Mildred Naylor (Mildred V. Naylor), who was the Exchange manager, were at the registration desk and were very hospitable to a new librarian.  The American Association for the History of Medicine had just concluded its meeting, and I met Dr. Sigerist (Henry E. Sigerist).  I am rather sorry that the meetings are no longer contiguous, particularly because one does miss that relationship with a sister organization. I don't remember too much detail of that meeting, but I do remember that as I came in to Madison on the train (they still had trains!), I decided I was a Midwesterner and I would remain a Midwesterner. (Chuckles)
JO:	That's an interesting thing to bring home from a meeting.
HC:	There the feeling, you know, that the air in the East was breathed by too many people.
JO:	You mentioned that you were warmly welcomed at the meeting, but did you feel that there was an Eastern kind of clique in the association that ran things and made it difficult to break in?
HC:	I think that was definitely true, although a couple years after that, when Wilma Troxel was chairman, the nominating committee asked me to have my name put on as secretary, but I am a very bad secretary and besides, I just couldn't take the time. There was still general consultation. But I think the thing that rubbed a good many of us out here, during the years of development of the regional system, was this habit of consulting certain institutions -- with Harvard and with Yale -- perhaps. They never did do as much with us. But there was a feeling that certain people were called on, and that there were other able people out in this part of the country who were never heard from -- asked to be heard from.
JO:	So being from the Midwest was in a way a problem?
HC:	But, of course, there was a very strongly active Chicago group. So I would say that it was more an intangible, more feeling than anything else. Of course, they had the tremendous resources. Libraries had more staff, were more used to -- and perhaps more optimistic.
JO:	Well, you gave a paper at only your third meeting and you were on the committee right after that.
HC:	Second meeting which --
Oh well, I suggested, I think, to Janet Doe that we have the formation of an Extension committee to promote this. Well, I couldn't get any hold on it. Nobody was enough interested. Some of the hospital librarians were; the librarian at a great hospital in Detroit was very much concerned with the service to medical staff who were teachers, and they couldn't care less about the doctor in some little town in the Upper Peninsula -- I think Minnesota was rather self-centered at that time -- highly centralized. The services were brought together and were highly centralized -- But there was a kind of indifference to special needs, or when special collections were concerned. And Illinois was used to relying on the AMA and VA. I think Detroit was one who gave us the greatest example, of local cooperation. But these things came many years later.
JO:	So, really the beginning of that committee was just a matter of if you wanted something to be done, you had to do it.?
HC:	Yes. I suggested an organization but, well, I didn't get anywhere. Dr. Throckmorton out at Iowa did another questionnaire, but it was sent to doctors, in different parts of the country. And it was again demoralizing to find out no one felt the need or knew that the extension service was desirable. So that didn't produce anything.
JO:	Did you have mentors or friends, already active in MLA, that helped you in those first years to meet people --
HC:	No, I don't believe so. I went to the first meetings, and I developed some very good friends. At the New Haven meetings I met Marion Robinson (Ida Marion Robinson). At the University of Maryland follow-up I met Myrl Ebert.       
JO:	You mentioned that the library here didn't fund your travels.
HC:	That was in the first years. As a matter of fact, I didn't even ask for it. We didn't even have an item for it in the budget. 
01:28:02
JO:	Also, I noticed the first couple of years that you were a member, you were a member as the librarian.
HC:	Well, nobody ever asked me to join as a individual (chuckles). At some time there was a little discussion of it, and I joined. I remember Helen Bayne who was a long-time member for Long Island was an institutional member. She had been coming to the meetings years before I did, and she had never been a personal member. So we went in I think at the same year. (Chuckles)
JO:	Do you think that was influenced by that change in the by-laws, requiring that the officers be professional librarians rather than MD's?
HC:	I don't believe it had anything particularly to do with it.
JO:	It seems that was when the Association began its professional relations.
HC:	That was a very crucial period in the 30's. The professional librarians were beginning to get a little restive, I think. Also, their interests were more professional, and probably the doctors felt less at home.
JO:	Could you sense this as a new member, or is it something that you just kind of recollect, looking back?
HC:	I recollect. There were some quite famous names, of course, on the rolls, but I don't recall very many doctors belonged, practically none. Dr. Middleton kept up his membership, but he was an honorary member, especially for that period because --
JO:	Yes, I was going to ask you because --
HC:	Because of the great influence he had.
JO:	That was in 1961, I think, wasn't it?
HC:	Yes. And that was the meeting I attended. -- My hair hadn't grown back, and I was wearing this silver turban, and I think, I realized that I was a great shock to people because it was just a month after my surgery.
JO:	I see, and the treatment was affecting your hair.
HC:	And that was the thing at the very famous meeting at Seattle where -- the boat we took out for dinner got stuck waiting for a permit to go through the locks, and we sat out there until midnight, and I --
JO:	Oh dear.
HC:	We were found, and here I was with my hip bone sticking through my skin, sitting for hours and hours. (Chuckles)
JO:	Great discomfort, I can imagine.
HC:	That's a story that nobody has heard. Marion Robinson (Ida Marion Robinson) at that time was placement advisor, and she hadn't gone on this famous tour, but when we didn't come back and hadn't come back by midnight, she was almost ready to call out the Coast Guard, but she couldn't help from having this sneaking feeling that if that ship had gone down, there were going to be an awful lot of good positions available for librarians.
JO:	Marvelous. Her work as placement officer would really pick up then. (Laughs) Gosh! Another thing that was just beginning at your first meeting was the certification.
01:31:26	End of Tape 1, Side 2.
Tape 2, Side 1
00:00:00	
JO:	Were you there when Mary Louise Marshall gave that certification report?
HC:	Yes I was. And as an example of how your memory misleads you, I was under the impression that certification was voted at that meeting by one vote - it won by one vote. But actually it was the next year that a grandfather clause was under discussion, and it won by one vote.
 HC:	Yes. As I was saying, my memory is a little confused, because I recalled that, after very strong discussions of Mary Louise Marshall's paper, there was great opposition, particularly by Sanford Larkey, and I always remembered that at this first vote the certification won by one vote. But when I looked up the figures, it must have been the following year at Galveston when the grandfather clause was being discussed. But at least I know that everyone present felt -- especially the ones who were on the fence -- wondered if a particular vote had swung one way or another. Now I wasn't convinced myself, but I did vote for certification, but I wondered at the time if I was right.
00:01:02
[Repetition of earlier portion of tape]
00:02:13
JO:	And then you had your charter certification?
HC:	I applied for charter certification at the very end when it was about termination time, and so many people did the same thing that closing had to be deferred for a few months to take care of all the people who applied late. So, that piece of paper didn't mean too much to me. I don't think when you're in an established institution and an established position, that you worry too much about these external things.
JO:	You say at the time that you were uncertain. Have your ideas on that changed since then?
HC:	Well, I think with the growth and specialization now in the membership, that certain symbols of accomplishment have to be provided. We were after all an organization at that time of about 800 members. Now there are 2000 members, so it was very different from the present. And certainly the reason for this recent increase in membership, and attendance at meetings, and refresher courses, is an indication that the Association is meeting needs. It may be economically a carrot that's bringing them in, but whatever does it is good for the Association. 
00:03:50
JO:	What were some of the other hot issues in your early years besides certification, professionalization?
HC:	There were little waves of pressure. I know, this was at the time when the Association was consolidating itself. The early years were concerned with internal operations -- with the actual physical activities of the library -- getting the books together and the catalog and processing. The second period was one of committees, organization, committees on standards, committees to survey the university library, to survey holdings, all sorts of committees. And it was all, of course, volunteer, and it was very difficult to get decisions. And I can remember when I was on the Board, that the Committee on Standards was asked to go back and work again. I believe they were working on a new certification code, and they could not agree. So that bounced back and forth for several years, before any decision could be made for that -- I think it was the first revision of the code. It was a period of very hard work of a great many people. And I don't look back on it, without much nostalgia. 
00:05:25
	Of course, the big event of my early years, was the organization of a central office. That owes a great deal to Bernice Hetzner for one, and, oh, the librarian in Oregon, the little half pint. She was chairman of that committee, and they set up a very good foundation for the central office. And I can remember how extravagant we felt to sign up for the salary of an executive secretary and for the building budget, for the rental budget. Look at the budget now, and you realize those were the simple days. (Chuckles)
00:06:18
JO:	That's wonderful -- early years. A lot of things got started then. You'd only been in the organization for a few years when they started having the subject interest groups?
HC:	Yes. I don't recall the discussion of that at meetings, but I do know that some people were worried about creating a whole series of MLA's which would detract from the main meeting. And instead, what it does was give us a great many younger recruits who did not have access to the main organization -- to the annual meeting -- but could come to regional meetings. I'm sure it's been of benefit to hospital and the smaller libraries.
00:06:58
JO:	And you've always belonged to the Midwest Regional Group?
HC:	Yes. I belonged to it in the days before it really existed. I remember thinking the year the constitution and by-laws were accepted, that this was the beginning of the end, because once you have a constitution and by-laws, you have to meet, whether you have anything to talk about or not. (Chuckles) At that time Otilia Goode was at the organization. She was reference librarian at the American Dental Association. And it was a very sociable affair. The meetings still are quite brief. One goes home before one has time to get bored. A longer meeting is sometimes rather depressing. And it increased fellowship throughout the area.
JO:	You don't remember the discussions? Do you remember, were you at the one that cast a vote for regional meetings when they brought it up in MLA?
HC:	I don't recall. I don't recall that being the case. But I know that one worry was that it would detract from the main Association. And the same thing came up several times when division of regions was suggested when Upper New York State group separated from the main New York group. There was a great deal of opposition --
JO:	To that.
HC:	But what it does is increase the membership of both, apparently  rather than decreasing. When the southwest section was organized, while I was president, there was defensiveness. Well, in this case, would somebody from western Texas -- Lubbock -- would anybody but the head librarian be able to go to Charleston? And the regional meeting that is an excessive distance so that the junior members didn't have nearly as much access to the group, or as much influence in the group as they do, now.
JO:	I think that one of the original intents was for those junior members. Do you think that the regional groups have changed over the years -- that they've gotten away from those original purposes?
HC:	No, I don't think they have. There is an occasional bump, when somebody wants to nominate a member of the regional group for something, who is not an individual member but who goes as an institutional member. Very many of the librarians are not individual members. They represent their libraries, but a representative of a library cannot, for instance, serve on the nominating committee and there is a little rub there.
JO:	And the problem, at least in our region, some of them are members of the regional group, but not of MLA itself.
HC:	Yes. I felt that we didn't make really enough use of the regions in providing, feeding people into officers and positions of responsibility in the main group, but I think the coordination is much better now. It seems to be.
JO:	Do you think the new arrangement that they've working on now between MLA and the regional groups, that they're going to help?
HC:	I really don't know, but I hope they will serve the purpose. I haven't heard the discussion on that. You see, I've been out of active libraries since '72.
JO:	Okay. Then that's right about --
HC:	Yes. They have started working on it the last three years.
JO:	Trying to -- But the changes are based on the same point you were making. They were worried about --
HC:	Always, there's been the problem of overlapping interests. The catalogers in a university library may have more mutual interests with the catalogers in a clinic library. So, if you divide them off by subject interest, then perhaps there is a coincidence of meetings, that you miss things in another classification.
00:11:28
JO:	You were chairman of the Midwest regional committee in 1958 and 1959. Was that good preparation for being president of MLA?
HC:	Well, it was some preparation, yes. But our interests were more concerned with where we were going to meet and how long. And the regional meetings have been complicated a great deal by the refresher courses, which is part of the reason for the regional meeting. That first regional we had at Madison we didn't have to worry about facilities for courses. But now they have to come a couple of days early, and that makes the regional almost as long as the national meeting and almost as expensive, which gets to be a problem -- financing attendance, I mean.
00:12:19
JO:	What about the subject groups?
HC:	Well, I've always belonged to the medical school group and have always gone to the medical history meetings if they don't coincide. Those are about the only subject groups I've had much to do with. In the early years, the subject groups were action groups. For instance, the pharmacy and dental librarians did a good many projects. And I think that held them together and focused interest. When the program sessions of groups at the meetings were discontinued, and they were discontinued for the reason that they were arranged by local people, and some of the programs were really lamentable. And it was felt that the main committee got the blame for the program content which they hadn't selected, so those were dropped. Well, they became only another expensive meal, to meet socially with your colleagues, and anybody could go to any meeting. So your medical school group meeting got to be so large, that any kind of discussion of common problems wouldn't be possible. And I felt during many years that, if we had a forum where we could have discussed things, we might have progressed farther, for instance, in seeking the funds to support research. Funds are a lot less from the local institutional funds in repayment for research support. So really, the groups in recent years have been rather futile. It might be better to release people from more and more meetings, and let them go out and eat someplace else, for a change.
JO:	Some of the groups are also trying to move back into being action groups like they were in the early years.
HC:	I do think the ones with the fewest members and the greatest unanimity of interest are the ones who have been the most active.
JO:	The most successful and active.
HC:	The medical school group is simply too large to be manageable as a productive group.
JO:	You have attended almost all the MLA meetings.

HC:	I missed the first Colorado meeting, because I was going abroad that summer. And, as you suggested, one year I went to the World National Congress in London.
JO:	That was 1953 then -- the MLA in Utah meeting.
HC:	Yes. But I also missed the New England meeting. I didn't go to the International Congress, but -- there was something about the time of year that I couldn't make it.
JO:	Oh yes. In fact, wasn't that when they were switching times of the year of the meeting from fall to summer, or am I --
HC:	Yes. It was fall instead of summer because of the international meeting. I don't recall the details of that. (Chuckles)
00:15:33
JO:	The first international meeting, where was that one held?
HC:	They held it in London.
JO:	And I was kind of interested in hearing your impressions of that meeting.
HC:	Well, as far as subject content goes, listening to translations isn't very satisfying. But I enjoyed greatly the visits to various institutions. I remember the president of the Royal Society of Apothecaries, was it? I stood behind him when we were having a picture taken, and his handsome robes smelled very strongly of mothballs. (Both laugh) That makes you feel that you've been in real contact with the royalty. We went to the Royal College of Physicians and Royal College of Surgeons and Royal Society of Medicine, and it's been helpful for me to know some of the personnel. Dr. Bishop over at the Wellcome Institute, a library in London, was one. And I can remember leaning forward over an exhibit case with some Florence Nightingale material, and the glass broke. I remember that it was so painful that our elbows had to be bandaged. I later attended a meeting of the medical section of the Library Association in Edinburgh, and his brother at Brockton Hospital was in charge of the registration. He was a much younger man. 
00:17:16
JO:	But was your interest in the history of medicine already fully developed then --
HC:	I slid into that again, sideways. At Iowa State I used to exhibit the rare books, and so on, and I knew a little about them -- the couple that came through. And it was just more or less accidental. And when I came here -- I am not trained in the history of medicine, but we had this collection which was of great interest to me. We added gradually as we could afford it. When Dr. Ackerknecht came, he was supported by a special grant from a foundation that's been very generous to the university, and it was more or less an experiment. He was my next door neighbor. For all the years he was here he had his office right next to mine.
JO:	What period was that in?
HC:	I'm trying to think. It was in the 1950's. And, of course, I learned a great deal. It was really an experience for me to watch how a professional historian produces a paper. He would get all these materials together. He would, perhaps, go down to the Crerar for the day. He would make a list of references. And he could do it in three weeks or so. It was just remarkable, it was so efficient. He never seemed to have much in the way of filing cases and so on. He kept his class records in a little black book. But how he could have such a well-organized memory system to produce the information he needed. It was just miraculous to me. He did a great deal in increasing our collection. He was a very bright student -- willing to give time to it, which a great many faculty members aren't. I know, we were offered a collection -- first dibs -- at the library of the archaeological and anthropological museum in Paris, the Musee de Loc which no longer wanted to keep its medical books. So, they offered them to us if we would price them. Well, we priced them. The then values of French books maybe were three or four dollars. We were honest about it. But the result was that we had a collection on the French Clinical School of the first half of the 19th century that Dr. Ackerknecht felt was better than Hopkins' at that time.
JO:	Oh, that's -- 
HC:   	Claude Bernard. And the -- oh -- percussion --
JO:	Laennec.
HC:	Yes, Laennec and all of the minor ones of that period.
JO:	Well, that's -- 
HC:	So that was a great addition. Now, that's a scholarly collection. They're not picture books
JO:	Absolutely not, no. Well then, in 1953 when you were in London, were you visiting book stores, too?
HC:	No, we did not.
JO:	No?
HC:	We didn't have that kind of money, at the time.
00:20:50
JO:	Some other things that you've done in MLA, I noticed that you were on the by-laws committee in the late fifties.
HC:	Yes. I remember the first thing that I was to prepare was a by-law on creating a category for retired librarians. It's very hard to have an active librarian and a retired librarian -- to have a classification that would insure that the retired people could contribute to the Association, and could serve on committees, but they couldn't be officers. But it was a very hard thing to word, and I'm sure it's been a problem. Another revision was proposed in the last few years, and I protested that the way it was worded, it cut retired people out entirely. It's hard to categorize them.
JO:	I hadn't realized that there were those provisions for the retired. You can't be officers, but you can participate in all the other things?
HC:	That's right
JO:	I think that was very smart of you to plan that in advance. (Chuckles) You can take good advantage of it now.
HC:	There were always minor revisions to be done. And, of course, at the time the central office was established, there had to be a great many changes authorizing activities and establishing some line of authority for the paid staff.
00:22:25
JO:	It was also during the late fifties that you were teaching that refresher seminar on the library equipment, and since you were in on those early years of what became our CE program, I thought I'd kind of like to get your comments on those early years and how it's developed.
HC:	Well, my experience in taking courses was that the course content was uneven, but what was even more of a handicap was the non-selection of participants. I can remember going to Gertrude Annan's course on the History of Medicine.
JO:	Oh, how marvelous for you.
HC:	And a couple of us from the University Libraries seemed to do more of the talking because here were some hospital librarians who were interested in the subject but had no background of administrative experience. And the few who had more books felt that they had to talk more. So I don't know how profitable it was. Different teachers had different techniques. I can remember one course in behavior -- I forget what that was called -- interrelationships and handling staff and personnel. We were given topics, and the groups acted out various things. Well, we happened to have a rather stolid group, and we struggled a long time to illustrate certain personnel situations. I found it very dull, and the director was unhappy with us because we didn't have the dramatic abilities of the librarians, people who had done this before. I can imagine it would be very sparkling sometimes. Sometimes the syllabi were very inadequate. One of the early ones I went to was on the early days of computer usage -- demonstration and actual experience, typing up computer cards. And again, that was rather frantic. It was a very definite and very elementary introduction, but afterwards, they developed some for the administrator and some for the actual participant.
JO:	Having the different levels helped. Do you think the CE program then, has been kind of steadily improving over the years?
HC:	Oh, I'm sure it has. For one things, they've gotten a lot more help with syllabi, and people selected to do the teaching certainly have been excellent.
00:25:24
JO:	Have you done any other teaching over the years?

HC:	Oh, I've given lectures at the library school and few of that kind of thing. I don't think teaching goes very well with administration. The classroom has to be occupied fully. You have to do it or not. It kind of has first claim to your energy, and I don't particularly care for teaching on a regular basis.
JO:	Is there a course in medical librarianship here at Wisconsin? There's not, is there?
HC:	No, there isn't a classroom course. We've talked about it many times, but the library school has never felt they could support it, and we've never felt that we had the staff energy to request or to organize one, except on the educational telephone network course, that was given first, I think it was, about two years ago, and I think has been repeated since. That was the first one of its kind in the country. It had a lot of bugs in it because the material didn't always go out on time. And people met at these regional centers, which are the medical school network points. We had thumbtacks in the map, all over the state to indicate the centers, the hospitals or the libraries where it could be heard. They can also go to the country agent's office, or to the hospitals. So we had people from Ashland, and distant areas of the state.
JO:	About how many people participated in it?
HC:	And they were given credit for it. -- We had about between twenty and thirty the first time. I don't remember how many the last time.
JO:	And then they listened to the program, and then they were mailed out assignments?
HC:	Yes, the syllabi were mailed out. It didn't always get there in time. The post office would lose them. And they could ask questions. Someone asked about Chem Abstracts. The staff members prepared some very good papers. The whole group had to come in once, during the course, for some Medline exposure.
JO:	Who made the tapes, or who lectured on the TV?
HC:	It wasn't TV. It was telephone.
JO:	I meant it was the telephone, yes.
HC:	Virginia and I were co-chairmen, and she did some of them. Reference was covered. There was cataloging. The reference section was taught by the reference librarian at the Medical College of Wisconsin, from there.
JO:	From there. That's very interesting. So then they got a broad spectrum of professional input. That's very good.
HC:	It was very strenuous but - it proved it could be done. And certainly very few of them could have come down for eight weekends in a row.
JO:	Yes, to take a course on campus.
HC:	The library school was quite straight-laced with the original outlines, so that they went right through library school and the graduate school for acceptance.
JO:	And they're going to continue now with --
HC:	I'm sure they will.  It would be a great sacrifice for anybody to have to go to Chicago to take a course there.
JO:	Sure. Yes. Definitely. 
00:29:12
	Also, in MLA you were on the Board of Directors, I think, for three years.
HC:	Yes. But what happened for that one year, I missed Midwinter Board because of the illness. And so, I think Brad Rogers was president that year. It was a learning experience.
JO:	Lentz was president one year and Gertrude Annan, was it?
HC:	I remember, it was at my first meeting that they had the joint boards in to question Brad Rogers.
JO:	The joint boards -- the incoming and the outgoing?
HC:	Yes.
JO:	Okay. What were they like to serve under?
HC:	Well, I think Brad Rogers was rather impatient at some of the rather puerile discussions on things that really didn't deserve Board attention. And we had a rather inadequate committee preparation on things that represented the Board. I remember his response that this is something he never would have accepted from one of his staff members. It was badly documented. (Chuckles) So, that was an experience.
JO:	The Board and the committee structures have been maturing right along with other programs too.
HC:	Well, and since then there's a liaison system whereas one board member is assigned to a certain committee and can report and interpret for the committee. That has done a great deal, I think, to keep it alive, to keep them attached to each other. Because very often the committees change and new members didn't quite know what happened, and the liaison who was the representative was supposed to report back to the committee, as well as report for the committee. But that means more reams of Xeroxing, too. The continuing problem is how to keep the affairs going, and not spend so much Board time on administrative details, things that can be handled in the central office. This is a constant problem, and Board meetings have been going longer and longer. And the investment of time means that only the librarians of the larger institutions can afford to contribute it. The hospital librarians have been on for years as staff officers -- ah -- from Detroit, of friend of mine, a hospital librarian --
JO:	The only one I can think of is Barbara Coe Johnson. 
HC:   	Yes. Barbara Coe Johnson.
JO:	That's right, yes. 
00:32:34
	Well, what were some of the major issues that the Board was discussing those years when you were on it?
HC:	Well, I just don't remember any particular major issues. I can remember --
JO:	Except for the central office that came into being then.
HC:	Yes. I can remember, one time asking to report to the Board on going down to talk with them about Exchange. I just don't recall any particular problems. I know the educational program and the internship program were a constant worry. The publication program is always -- A great many of the things that came up were simply not possible because of funds. I know the national relations committee in recent years has needed more funds to promote cooperation. And they just didn't exist, for many major programs. Continuing education was developed, but almost entirely with volunteers.
00:33:51
JO:	Yes. That's true. When you were on the Board, was that when they were starting to have the problems about what they call the "young Turks revolt", that of democratization of the Association?
HC:	Well, one thing -- The question of duplication of committee memberships was a very real one.
JO:	And you were on that committee then, weren't you?
HC:	Well, I don't remember doing too much on that Committee on Committees. It usually is pretty much up to the chairman to do the job, but --
JO:	And that was good for them, yes.
HC:	I just don't recall meeting that much on it. But in recent years, the Committee on Committees meets several times during the meeting and really goes over the name of people who have asked to serve or who the Board recommended so as to create some sort of geographical and sex balance on committees. And you have the problem of, for one thing, the Board committees. Those are bound to be duplications. And the continuing committees on which a member moves up in the course of four years, say, to the chairmanship, you don't have maybe only one appointment to make on those. So there is a limited number of places for you to appoint. That article I was speaking about by Lee Jones, I was very conscious of that, and I had been, myself, in the past. And when I was vice president and as chairman of the Committee on Committees, I think we did not have one duplication. One thing, people that I knew at that time in the regional groups. 
00:35:50
	And I think one of the best things I did was some of my appointments at the time. That was the time when we needed a new editor. Bob Lewis (Robert F. Lewis) accepted the editorship, and I was pleased with that. And some of my appointees have gone on and become more influential members in the Association.

JO:	How was Bob chosen as the editor then? Was it the Committee on Committees and did they have names submitted?
HC:	No. We asked for names, and I queried some people and they weren't interested. And I suggested Bob.
JO:	Oh, so you were directly instrumental, and you were the one actually suggested it.
HC:	Yes. He had been on the Board. My experience with him as a writer was at a board meeting. He had to revise some minutes and I could see he was a natural editor. (Chuckles) He was delighted and accepted it. There has been a great development in support for the editor -- secretarial support and so on.
00:36:58
JO:	Well, when you were on the Board, you were listed as a procedure manual compiler? What the heck was that?
HC:	Well, we used to have a judicious effort to keep up on the status of every committee, on its responsibilities, when it's supposed to do -- 
JO:	Someone's knocking at the door. Is that for us?
 (Tape interrupted)
JO:	We were talking about the Procedures Manual.
HC:	This was a loose-leaf sort of thing which was to keep each committee's responsibilities and activities up to date. Every committee chairman was supposed to update it, at the end of the year's appointments.
JO:	Was that something new that they did, just started keeping then?
HC:	No. It had been going on, but it hadn't been going on very fast. I had this notebook and these series of sheets. Well, then as far as I can see, it was just unfeasible. You couldn't get the responses from the committees, and we felt this was a project for the central office, and so it was just dropped. I don't think anybody ever consulted it anyway. If they wanted to know what they were supposed to be doing, they asked the executive secretary or the president or somebody. It never really amounted to much. It was a great effort, I'm sure, of somebody in getting this together, but it wasn't very practical. 
00:38:35
	Now something that was done later -- Don Washburn (Donald Washburn), from the minutes of the Board, compiled all the decisions under subject entries. So we had this great book full of excerpts, which was invaluable. It couldn't be complete, because some things weren't entered. There were different headings, the subject entries weren't consistent.  But it was invaluable to me. It was one of his great contributions to the management of the Board. I hope somebody is updating it. It would be a good project for the executive director, but, I don't know what was done with it -- so much depends on the natural interest of each person -- as to what priority impresses them the most.
00:39:40
JO:	One of your other activities in the late sixties was that of the Exchange. I think I mentioned that early Exchange reports were kind of tear-jerkers. They'd had an awful lot of problems. Did you find that was still the case, or had that changed?
HC:	Well the same kind of problem always turned up. The Exchange Committee always got these letters about failure to receive postage. And sometimes -- there had to be some sort of arbitrary way of assigning material that was wanted by more than one person, and so finally they evolved the system whereby one library got first choice, on one list. The next list they got the last choice rather than first priority. And when they had volunteer Exchange managers, when I first came, I think the assignments came about a year late. One of my worst experiences was sending out about two thousand pieces of exchange lots. There was a problem of the key numbers. I know when I was chairman, we wrote a manual. We wanted to be helpful to the people doing the mailing. I know I did another little questionnaire study of what people wanted from the Exchange. And one suggestion was that only journals listed in Index Medicus be listed. Protests about that came from the large clients which needed that little book on anti-vivisection or a little unimportant local journal. But otherwise there was a unanimity almost that the Exchange was important and valuable to them.
JO:	Well what part of the Exchange was the central office doing then?
HC:	Well, after that the central office mailed out lists and then they mailed the --. Each library then sent material --. I mean, people asking for material sent their lists to the library offering it. So it cut out that distribution.
JO:	I thought that had already started when you were the chairman. It started after.
HC:	Well, it started when the central office took hold. I can remember I know there was a suggestion one time -- Some graduate student in one of the institutions had evolved a computer method of handling the Exchange. Well it might be possible, but it looked improbable to us because each offering is unique. So it didn't seem to lend itself to a mass approach. I also did a study here at -- ah -- Northwestern. I did a study of the actual receipts and how much it cost. Many of the larger libraries -- and of course, Minnesota is one of them -- have been very inactive in the Exchange, feel that it's cheaper to buy what you need. But I don't think they counted in the possibilities. In the smaller towns and smaller places, we have no access here to discard journals. The difficulty of replacing some titles. We can't just call up here and say I want such and such an item. So there is disagreement as to the actual cost per mailing of what you receive. But we have profited a great deal from it here. Since we keep up two sets of some titles, we can afford to wait for a second copy. But I know people ask for the most outrageous things. Some little library out in the country wanted a set of the Surgical History of the Rebellion.
JO:	Oh my.

HC:	I commented to Brad Rogers one time. I said, "Why do they ask for what they do?" And he said, "They ask for it because it's offered." (Chuckles)
00:44:33
JO:	Well then you had a little rest there for about five or six years and then you were elected the vice president.
HC:	That was the crucial years when we were busy --
JO:	Building your library.
HC:	With the moving.
JO:	And then you became the president elect.
HC:	I was a member of the Certification Committee for a brief period. I believe that I was simply not able to -- I wasn't keeping up the job as it was. I wouldn't be able to take over the chairmanship, so I slid off and let somebody else move in. I just couldn't handle it. There was so much material to handle, the application blanks that have to go out to all members of the committee. I must admit that all this business of education and certification isn't one of my major interests. (Chuckles)
JO:	While you were president, it came up again, so you certainly had to deal with it.
HC:	That's one of the things that I was most fortunate in, that Louise Darling was willing to accept the chairmanship of that committee. Because nobody had more experience with it than she had.
JO:	Now, was that when you were vice president and she became? --
HC:	No, that was a special committee, and that was during my term as president.
00:46:05
JO:	And what year was it you became president?
HC:	In 1972.
JO:	In San Diego -- in the ill-fated meeting when they ran out of the hors d'oeuvres. (Chuckles)
HC:	Yes. That San Diego ball was to be remembered. (Chuckles)
JO:	We ought to talk about some of the main issues while you were president.
HC:	Well, I can remember one problem we were having was with the certification and the accreditation of programs. Each program had to be inspected by a member of the committee, and there was difficulty in being sure that one person can represent the interests of the organization, even with the continuing committee. The chairman usually has to do a great deal of this.
JO:	This is accreditation of the courses taught in Library Schools?
HC:	There was some problem over one of them, that the Board first turned down and then finally accepted, because it found the criteria it was using were not actually in the statement of requirements for a medical library course. And of course the courses were very uneven to begin with, because sometimes it was bibliography of science, sometimes it was long or short or intermediate -- And finally the Board agreed than until the certification code was presented and accepted, that any course would be accepted. In other words, the programs didn't have to be vetted. I forget the details now. There was a great deal of confusion over that venture.
JO:	Yes I expect some people wouldn't receive that very well, as a matter of fact.
HC:	I should have gone back over the Minutes for that period. We were just at the final stages, the last report of the Goals Committee came in, and was accepted and printed during that period. And then, the Board had been very careful to pass on every one of the recommendations.
00:48:23	End of Tape 2, Side 1
Tape 2, Side 2
00:48:24
JO:	I'll continue -- asking you some questions about your tenure as MLA President. One of the things you commented upon while you were president was that attendance at the Business meetings was as usual deplorable. Has this been true since you first started in 1946?
HC:	More than once, the Sergeant-at-Arms has had to be sent out to collect people from the corridors to get a quorum. It depends a bit on the timing of the meeting. And different patterns have been followed. I don't know, whether it's better now. But on the final Friday afternoon meeting, members go out to have their hair done for the banquet. Many people feel that even if it is their business it isn't necessary for them to be there, because they can vote by mail on a good many things. And also you know there is a large apathetic group that doesn't want to bother with it.
JO:	Obviously, you think it is important. Can you comment on the reasons why you think this?
HC:	Well, this is after all the heart of your -- this determines where the Association goes, what it does with its time and its money and how it's constructed. Bylaws changes are getting to be very important for the future. And I just think if you belong to anything, you have a responsibility to belong to it wholly.
JO:	I think sometimes there is a tendency for the members to think that really the President or the Board has already decided that. 
00:50:06
	Can you comment on what powers the President does have. When you held the office, did you think you actually had control, or were you limited?
HC:	No, I felt that I was just another member who happened to be in the chair, because the Board does make the decisions. Very often they follow the recommendations of the committee or the recommendation of the secretary or whatever, but they don't have to. And there are always some very strong minded people on the Board. I think it may be that a few Board members are more influential than others. This is true of any political activity. But the president, of course, carries on a lot of activity, lots of correspondence and is prepared to make recommendations, but the president doesn't actually have a vote, except to be the tie breaker. Some people work more by consensus, than others I must admit. I can remember the story, at Harvard a faculty member meeting another faculty member in the Yard. He said, "You didn't go to faculty member meeting?" He said, "No, I don't believe in interfering with President Lowell's private business." (Chuckles) That's the way some people feel about their organization. When there is anything really crucial, there is usually more attendance. I know at the admission of the Osteopathic Library Institute membership, some people felt very strongly about it and it happened to come up fairly late at the Business meeting and some people missed the meeting, so it served them right. (Chuckles)
JO:	I don't remember that. About what year was that?
HC:	I don't recall. I wasn't on the Board then.
JO:	I hope I wasn't one of the people that did miss the meeting.
HC:	It was years ago.  (Both laugh)
00:52:12
JO:	Did you feel during your year as president that you were presiding over stormy seas, or were things relatively calm during that period?
HC:	No. Well, a good many things happened. It got bumpier as we went along, because that was the year that Helen Brown Schmidt resigned. And we had first, of course, a search committee of which your boss, Glenn Brudvig, was chairman. He did a very good job of it. After all, this was only our second executive secretary, and committees of the board had to write up the list of requirements and specifications for the search committee to work on and have interviews. So we would go into executive session to interview, and then Helen Schmidt would come back as secretary and take some more minutes, and then we would go into executive session again to discuss it. (Chuckles) It was administratively, a kind of rocky time.
JO:	You were telling me this morning about how that some of that evolved, that the executive secretary changed.
HC:	Yes. I knew there had been criticism on the board, and when we were at a meeting, I mentioned to Helen Schmidt that there had been some criticism, and I was afraid something might come up. And she just said, "Well, I resign." She wasn't willing to take that kind of criticism. We had expected her to stay on for a couple of years until her normal retirement date, but I couldn't persuade her out of this. So we had to change our course a little bit until we could get a permanent secretary in. I'm willing to take the full credit or blame for that, because I was speaking to her as a friend, and apparently it was the wrong thing to do. None of the board ever criticized me for it. I don't know how people felt about it, but that's the way it happened.

JO:	And so then, the board decided that since the office was being vacated, they would change it to a different --
HC:	Yes. They made it, for one thing, either at that time or shortly after, the position was titled Executive Director. And earlier than that, I guess, that the change was made, eliminating the secretary and treasurer. That had to be voted on, and that took effect approximately this period.
JO:	Did that go through fairly easily or --
HC:	There was no question. It had been in mind for some time, because, I think, the duties of the position had been whittled away. The executive secretary recorded the minutes, as a matter of fact, and then wrote them up, and the treasurer just had to take responsibility for the safety deposit box, and for signing vouchers. But it was arranged as an alternative, that a local member could be made the Trustee and given the power to sign the checks. That was about all that was involved. The Finance Committee has had to be more active, because they are now the consultants on the budget and have rather more responsibility than if there was a treasurer to work with the executive director.
JO:	How was it decided to have an executive director, and how were those new duties structured? Did the Board --
HC:	Well, I know Helen Schmidt felt that executive secretary was no longer acceptable. Most associations had executive directors, and they didn't quite know what an executive secretary was anymore. And the duties remained much the same, but with a new employee, of course, you've got different emphases, and John LoSasso was more experienced in Association work but not in the library end of it. And librarians feel very possessive about their profession. They think in terms of activities first and organization afterward.
00:56:52
JO:	Did it seem to you -- Was it debated at the time, that perhaps the central office was -- the tail that was beginning to wag the dog?
HC:	Well, the growth in personnel and the expenses of the central office were getting to be quite worrisome, but this was happening -- We managed to keep the budget pretty well controlled at that period, but I think more recently -- Of course, the central office took over the convention management, which was a very important development. And I think that's been much more efficient the way it's been done.
JO:	One of the things you commented on in your inaugural address was that in early years, the all volunteer organization had to be bullied into doing work, but now there were lots and lots of volunteers. Did you see conflict arising because of the fact that there were fewer opportunities for the volunteers to do work because of the central office?
HC:	Yes. I think especially the young people. They always want to go faster than any organization is able to do, and they felt that they were not sharing. There's always the feeling that important decisions are being made, and "nobody tells me these things". Some of them wanted the organization to go in different directions, and they felt the process was very slow. But this is inevitable. And we did make a definite effort to bring energetic young people in. There are some standing committees that progress from the newest appointee to the chairman of the committee. You have to be sure that the people you're appointing are going to be able to take, first, the time and the labor involved in being chairman of one of these important committees with a lot of correspondence or, for instance, the Certification Committee, a lot of certificates to handle. And it's fatal if you get somebody in there who isn't capable of doing the job. So those are likely to be more established people appointed to those committees. And if they are appointed to committees that don't do much, they don't learn much. (Chuckles)
00:59:30
JO:	Also, when you were vice president, you were the first to chair the Nominations Committee under the new organization.
HC:	Yes. All of us on that first Nominating Committee went into this quite innocently. We had really no rules to follow, so we met a couple of times and presented some names and voted on them. The procedure is very much more elaborate now and much more thorough, much more conscientious. Each person has to present whatever nominations he wishes to present, with supportive data, and the nominees from the groups also have to be inserted into this. -- The groups are likely to nominate very established people in their groups, so those have given us some very wise hints. And a thorough canvassing is indicated by the quality of nominees we've been getting.
01:00:41
JO:	Have problems arisen because the committee is so large now?
HC:	No. They all attend, and it means two or three long sessions. They take that post very seriously, and I'm sure it's a much healthier arrangement than it used to be with a nominating committee, with a new person or so coming on every year and succeeding up to the chairmanship. You don't have as much continuity on the committee, but you have very experienced people serving, so that their background is --it averages out.
01:01:24
JO:	Of all your MLA work, which did you like best or gave you the most satisfaction?
HC:	Well, I think probably the public meetings and the writing. That's the ability to talk to the whole membership and to talk frankly about our problems and to try to persuade people that we were not being secretive about them -- that we were members together of an organization that utilized whatever skills we could offer. I can't think of any one activity that gave me the most satisfaction. I enjoyed working on the Exchange Committee. I enjoyed most the practical things that you could do something about, rather than the more philosophical, theoretical ones. That's not my kind.
JO:	You did mention that one of things you felt best about was the appointment of Louise Darling on the Certification Committee --
HC:	Yes, Louise Darling. I was very happy that she was willing to take the code revision. You see, we had had a couple of efforts by committees previously that were not acceptable or not accepted. And so this was a kind of a last ditch effort. Louise had had more experience, probably, in all of these preparatory committees, than anybody in the organization and had been more deeply concerned with teaching, herself. Another appointment that I was very happy with, was Bob Lewis as editor of the Bulletin. That's coming up as a vacancy now, and we'll have a new editor. But that is very important for the Association as a whole. You see, during all of my experience -- not when I first went on the Board, but later -- the editor of the Bulletin was invited to be present at Board meetings. I should imagine there was a lot of repetitious talk that was boring, but still, it was important that the Bulletin editor be up on what was going on.
01:03:40
JO:	I can see that. During your year as president, you travelled a lot more than most of the presidents. --
HC:	Well, it was agreed that the vice president and the president should go -- one or the other should be represented at each regional meeting. Now I went, for instance, to the Continuation Committee meeting in Boston because the liaison officer wasn't able to go and asked me to take over that, so that was one trip. I don't think I went more often than most. It just happened that there was a carryover. I didn't go to very many, one year, but I did more the next. But I think it's very important for the officers to be visible, and more recently they've been speaking about the Association at these regional meetings. This is an important time.
JO:	Did you think the fact that you were retired --
HC:	Well, it certainly gave me more freedom to take my time. There are two sides to that. It's almost a full time job. Either you have a job, with staff who can handle your job while you're gone, and with excellent secretarial help. My problem at Lubbock was that we had a continuing change in secretarial help, and I couldn't just hand something over, because letters to Dave Bishop (David Bishop) were still going to Montreal. And different people -- they hadn't caught up with -- because the Directory was not updated. But there is also the question of energy, and I'm not entirely sure that people near the end of their professional careers are the best ones as president. They have a certain amount of wisdom, but they lack a certain amount of drive. And as you see that leisure building up toward retirement, you begin to look forward to that more than you do to what's going to happen to the Association next year. (Chuckles) In other words, there's the feeling that you won't be around in an administrative position to take advantage of the decisions that are made, or to see what comes up.
JO:	As you look back on your MLA years, are there things that you would do differently?
HC:	No, given the circumstances. I would like to have been able to give more energy to the Association. In the early years particularly, it was a continual battle of a wish certain things should be done, and the personal energy to pursue them.
JO:	To see that they got done.
HC:	I was always interested in the gathering of information --statistical compilations and so on -- but I wasn't able to help with that, because I was simply too bogged down at home.
00:07:01
JO:	In those early years in MLA, we touched on the fact that they met jointly with the American Association of the History of Medicine. It seemed there were many medical librarians who were interested in medical history. Why do you think this was so at that time?
HC:	Well, the medical librarian is the generalist of the staff and really has to look forward to what any given library is going to need in the future. Also, librarians are instinctively acquisitive, and everyone has some older material and hangs on to that, and appreciates gifts. So it's partly a function of collection building, and partly a function, of course, of being required to know a little something about everything.
JO:	Do you think that interest in the history of medicine is fading among the MLA membership?
HC:	Well, there are two aspects of that. One, I think there are getting to be more people appointed as librarians of history collections. I think they are much better trained than most of us were, and so you have a more concentrated group interested in the history of medicine, whereas, the others, more or less, relinquish it, because they are interested in some of the newer aspects.
JO:	And do you think this is reflected in the fact that the Bulletin publishes fewer history articles?
HC:	No, I think it's the other way around -- that they publish fewer articles because fewer are submitted. There are fewer people to feed articles to them. And, of course, they don't get the contributions from the doctors who used to belong to MLA, and a great many of those contributions were papers given at meetings, particularly in the city where the meeting was held. You know, this piece I did on the history of the Association at the Minneapolis meeting several years ago, I ended with a quotation from Guy Stanton Ford, who had spoken to the Association when it met in St. Paul some years before.
JO:	Was he president of our university then?
HC:	I think he wasn't at the time. I said that he reminds us that "history is not a conservative subject, and if it teaches anything, it teaches constant change. I do not think any man fully grasps all that his profession means, the sense of all that is behind him and the importance of what he is and what he does unless he knows the long road traveled by all those on whose shoulders he stands today." And that, of course, could be a text for any young medical librarian.
JO:	In your history, the direction of your interest turned towards building a historical collection here, rather than writing a history of medicine. How did that come about?
HC:	Well, I'm really not trained to be a historian of medicine. -- What I've learned, I've learned from reading myself and going to lectures. My knowledge has been bibliographical, and I couldn't speak with any depth. I did report to the local medical history seminar on some aspects of the Sotheby purchases. I'm sure I could write something in the way of local history, but again the commitment isn't there to spend that much time on any one topic. My strength, and also my weakness, is in a capacity to take an interest in any number of things, and I haven't been willing to commit myself wholly to any one of them. (Chuckles)
01:11:03
JO:	Any one thing. When did your interest in the history of medicine begin?
HC:	Well as I say, I've always been interested in unusual and rare books, and my father had some rather interesting ones. And I was custodian of this William Snow Miller collection which was in a closet for many years because we had no place to put it. And I did have to service that when people needed some knowledge of the contents. Then we did some purchasing of historical books, and we received a number of very fine gifts. And also with the appointment of Dr. Erwin Ackerknecht as the first professor of the History of Medicine here -- he was the department. We had an active publishing historian rather than amateurs to serve, and this made quite a bit of difference. He was extremely generous in helping in reading book catalogs. As you know, there are few things duller than reading catalogs day after day.
JO:	(Chuckles) I disagree with you on that! (Laughs)
HC:	Well, if you're actively searching for certain things. But I'm looking at it from the point of view of a librarian. This was a treat for me, but it also gets to be a burden, when you don't have time to follow up. I was doing too many other things.
JO:	It definitely is time consuming.
HC:	But for faculty members, it is considered rather a burden to read book catalogs. So he was extremely helpful in building both our classical and our more recent collection. We owe to him our very fine collection of the French clinical school and a good deal of material also on public health. Because our most valuable collections previously had been in anatomy, he commented that he'd always been haunted by the bones because he'd been at the American Museum of Natural History before he came here, and wherever he was he found the anatomy books.
JO:	That's amazing.
HC:	But we have a great proportion of the major books of anatomy. A few of the titles we don't have.
JO:	So he had quite an influence, then on the formation of the collection.
HC:	Yes.
01:13:28
JO:	Were there other early scholars?
HC:	Well of course, William Snow Miller started the Medical History Seminar, oh it was back in the teens, and those papers -- He was a martinet. He was a specialist on the lung and the chest, over in anatomy. Everyone who belonged to this Seminar, and it was an honor, was required to submit a paper every year or two in advance. Dr. Miller, being deaf, sat and read the paper while it was being presented. I was the first woman invited to join, and by the time I joined, the numbers had dwindled considerably. And finally it just faded out because there might be three, four, half a dozen people at the session, and people weren't contributing papers either. It just died of inanition.
JO:	And has that been revived or is it still --
HC:	No, it sort of faded away, just a few years ago. And I know Dr. Risse (Guenter B. Risse) and Dr. Numbers (Ronald Numbers) did their best for it, but it just didn't seem to be appealing to enough people, and the old-timers retired, and nobody came in to take their place.
JO:	Dr. Ackerknecht eventually went back to Germany?
HC:	Yes. He went to the Institute of the History of Medicine in Zurich, which is one of the famous schools. And he had quite a large group of graduate students. Many dissertations came out of there and many publications. He had charge of the museum as well as the library.
JO:	Was there a lull then, or was there another history of medicine professor?
HC:	Well, we had a whole series of lecturers. Dr. Gernot Rath was to be a permanent staff member, but he came in under one of these international protocols. He had signed up to go back to Germany for a year or two, after having this particular fellowship, so I think he was a little fearful of the permanency of the position. Because it had been under gift money, he was afraid the medical school might not retain it. Well, of course, they have and increased it. But he went to Nuremburg. And then we had several lecturers -- Dr. Walter Artelt was here for a couple of years. And then Dr. Nikolas Mani was appointed. He was a thorough scholar. He went to Bonn. I think he decided that he hadn't been here enough years to build up much of an annuity, and Bonn would give him a better retirement. That was partly it. And partly it was a prestigious appointment, and it was nearer his home.
JO:	And you also, I assume, had -- Some of your historical clientele must be coming from the History of Pharmacy and History of Science Departments?
HC:	Yes. Now the major part of the historical works on pharmacy are in Memorial Library. That was an accident of space largely. And the Memorial Library also has a fine basic science historical collection with a science bibliographer. And altogether, these departments make, I think, the largest teaching department in the country in history of science, because they have basic science, biology, pharmacy, medicine. Chemistry is concerned with it, also. But the collections are somewhat dispersed, because we certainly wouldn't have room for all of the medical ones that are in the main library. And I think they worked out a very comfortable arrangement with the Memorial Library. This bibliography of books that was published by John Neu some years ago, of course, is very much outdated, because our whole Sotheby purchases were all subsequent to that.
01:17:55
JO:	It's still a classic in the field. In the early years, where did you find the money to acquire new rare materials?
HC:	Well, I can remember, we didn't have an early edition of Harvey, and we spent three hundred dollars, I think, for a copy of -- what was the date -- a fairly early edition of it. And at that time they were more for ornament than for practical use. And, as I say, we got a very fine gift from Maurice L. Richardson. He was a former prosector, I think he called it, for Dr. Miller (William Snow Miller). And he came out of the blue fifty years later, offering us his collection. The quiet old gentleman from Lansing, Michigan, a radiologist there with no family -- one brother older than himself, and neither of them had any family.
JO:	It sounds like what we all dream of.
HC:	It's a very beautifully selected collection. And he also left his money to -- a fund to Johns Hopkins and part of it to us for the library and the history of medicine. So we do have that fund which is very helpful, and the interest is used for current purchases.
JO:	And so before that, you were kind of just squeezing things out of the regular budget, but now you have a special fund?
HC:	Yes.
JO:	Do you have other special funds?
HC:	Oh, sometimes funds are given in honor of certain -- memorials per se. Dr. Middleton really was responsible for most of the contributions. As the chief anonymous donor, he would draw off checks that were given to him and round it up, of course. We had a fund for the honor of the former head of anesthesia. We bought some anesthesia things from the Sotheby sales with that. And our major fund for the purchase of the Edinburgh collection came from a gift of one of Dr. Middleton's patients, (G. Paul Miller). He added a codicil to his will, and so we got a nice sum of money there. Some of it was used to furnish the building, but there was a good piece left --
JO:	Going to books.
HC:	It wasn't tremendous, but it was a solid amount of money that I could use at discretion.
JO:	So you've never had a formal Friends group?
HC:	We do have one. Chauncey Leake sent us a check some years ago to the "Friends of the Library", and that's how we started that. -- That's the fund we dump gifts into now, you know. (Chuckles)
JO:	I see.
HC:	He was a former faculty member here.
JO:	It's difficult to raise money in Wisconsin? Isn't there a state law that you're not allowed to solicit funds for the University?
HC:	I don't know about that, but I do know you have to clear it through the University Administration so that they don't have too many requests. The alumni got permission to collect for the building, but I wouldn't have been permitted to go out and collect and solicit anybody for money, because they have to predetermine what campaigns they're going to support.
JO:	Did you find that, as the collection grew, it became easier to get money -- that people were more likely to donate?
HC:	Well, I'm sure that builds up, but we don't have nearly the buildup that they have, for instance, at Yale where probably the gifts help four times over. But we do get some very unexpected gifts. Most of them, of course, are run of the mill libraries given by their widows.
JO:	A few treasures tucked away here and there. You mentioned that Dr. Ackerknecht did help select materials for the library. Did any of the other scholars that followed him, or were you mostly choosing during that time?
HC:	Well, I pretty much kept it up, and I was quite flattered that Dr. Mani said that the selection where he had been a book selector for the university library up there, and he said that the selection was of professional caliber, and I felt quite good about it. Of course, I was following along with the interests of the people that headed the department. I think the interests have changed quite a bit, and I wouldn't be capable now of selecting wisely for their present needs, because I haven't been in on the buildup. They're more interested in contemporary things -- 19th century.
JO:	19th century.
HC:	And these irregular schools of medicine, and that sort of thing. But they are doing it on the basis of the strong base collection that exists.
JO:	And all those books that you were acquiring or getting as gifts, who cataloged those during the early years?
HC:	Well, of course, those all just went through, over at the main library. But now we do them ourselves. We had a full time person, when the Edinburgh books first came in, to catalog them, because they had a great deal of Latin and he had Latin and Greek.
JO:	You mean that wasn't Jim Dast?
HC:	No he didn't. He wasn't doing cataloging. -- We've had another young man. He got his degree in classics, and he came here to library school, who was cataloging the older books. We did make a change in policy. I know when Chauncey Leake was here one time, he asked if we classified the books, and I said, "Yes". Well, I think the rub was scattering books of the early important authors all over the place. And, of course, the NLM classification is much superior for that. We did get a little grant from NLM to bring in, say, get the Harvey material together -- material of a dozen or so important people. Because as you know, it's a frantic search, if you have them divided by subject heading. How do you do it?
JO:	Ours are all under Dewey Decimal system. I haven't encountered the problem that you mentioned.
HC:	As a matter of fact, when Dr. Ackerknecht was here, he shared the area where we had our historical books shelved in compact shelving. At his request, we arranged them chronologically by author and just ignored the top line, and we had the date on all of our books. Again, if one was out of place, it was lost, but it was very useful for the practitioner.
01:25:19
JO:	You mentioned that you it in compact shelving. I assume that was before you moved into this building. Was it locked or air conditioned or was it --
HC:	No. It was just a former laboratory room, which was taken away from Physiology for us. (Chuckles)
JO:	Through the years how have you handled the reference questions, you know, or circulation, people who wanted to take books out?
HC:	Well, they just had to go through Circulation. The room was kept locked unless there was somebody here. We have most of the time had at least a half time person assigned, but it hasn't been possible to give the full time of any one person to it. -- The need of the reference staff was too great, so they have to take the desk schedules downstairs.
JO:	And then when you moved to this new building, you were able to plan these special physical facilities. Was it then, and through your work with the rare books, that you became interested in preservation?
HC:	Well, I've always been concerned about that, but I wrote that chapter in the Handbook simply because I was asked. And there might have been some other assignment that might have been more congenial. But I think the practical problems, the current binding problems I could handle. I'm sorry there wasn't more in it about the preservation of rare books, but I assumed that would be the function of the writer of the chapter on the history of medicine. So there isn't enough in the Handbook about that. But of course, the preservation of historical material is a rather special field at best, and each book has to be considered individually. Something we did develop here - I don't know whether you've seen these homemade boxes, they are really little cases, they're made for something like twenty-five cents apiece. They work very nicely, and they work very nicely for the amount these are used. Of course, we use acid free pasteboard, and the tape, I think, is fairly inert. I think they're tidy on the shelves --
JO:	Yes. Neat and it helps to keep them clean.
HC:	And don't require unfastening lots of bow knots, which are a nuisance.
JO:	It keeps them from rubbing against the other books too.
HC:	It's always a problem within the funds you have, whether you're going to buy new things or preserve the old ones. But the books are not always going to be available. They're not used heavily enough to create much of a hazard. So this gives us some advantage of both.
JO:	When you were writing your chapter on preservation, did you run into any problems?
HC:	No, I was extremely well treated. They took out one sentence I was very proud of, but I suppose it was purple prose (laughs) and wasn't correct. And I know that there was rarely -- really very little change. When we had to revise the whole manuscript because of delay in publication, I had to renumber all my references. That was kind of a headache.
JO:	So then you were fairly free to write whatever you wanted to.
HC:	I felt that there were some things in it that were rather esoteric, about paper preservation and all, but it doesn't do many readers harm to know a little bit of something about the research on this. But the chief moral of my tale was "do no harm". 
JO:	A good reliable standby in the field of preservation of rare books, both! 
01:29:50
	Have you also been active in other library associations besides MLA?
HC:	Well, I have belonged to the Wisconsin Library Association. I belonged to the ALA for years. I think there are limits to the number of associations you can contribute to.
01:30:15
JO:	You have been active during your retirement though. You were President of course and you mentioned, also being in Lubbock.
HC:	Lubbock, Texas.
JO:	You went there as a consultant in 1971?
HC:	Yes, as they were starting a medical school at Texas Tech to open practically a year later. We had ten months -- not much more than ten months to get the library together for the first class. And most institutions allow two or three years. So here we were -- the whole staff really, in one office. When anybody telephoned, we had to stop. We had a borrowed typewriter, no adding machine. (Chuckles) There was practically no shelving. We had a bunch of gifts stored in the basement of the girls' dormitory, and that was a quarter of a mile away. It wasn't under the best auspices. It was a very full year. But I think we started them out with an excellent library. San Antonio offered us a basement full of gifts which they had preselected, so we got lots of journals there and lots of backaches.
JO:	So one of the things you were doing was helping them establish the collection?
HC:	Establish the collection and set up the accounting system, which in Texas is the largest headache of all. And, plan the building. 
JO:	Why is that?
HC:	Well, I think in the early years they had various rip-offs, so they kept adding regulations to keep anybody from getting away with it. And the result was everything had to be bid for. You couldn't buy a pencil unless it was on the prescribed list, (chuckles) and lots of accounting blanks. So that was a headache. And we had to plan the use of the distribution of space in the dormitory where we set up the first library. And also, there was some beginning of, and planning for the final library.
JO:	Was that to help them design a building -- kind of the same things you did here at Wisconsin?
HC:	Well, set up the program to indicate how much space we needed for what purposes, and trying to translate it for the preliminary architects. I remember we were trying to get -- They set up a stenographic pool behind the circulation desk. (Laughs) They had to learn a good deal about libraries before they could design it.
JO:	Yes.
HC:	I haven't seen the building since they've occupied it. It seems to have come out pretty well.
JO:	Were you also helping to choose the new staff of the library?
HC:	Yes. We had several librarians in mind. One was to take over Reference. But everybody did everything at the beginning. And we did our own processing, so all the routines had to be established for that. We had to pick the initial serial collection -- both the journals and the serials, which was a real problem, of course. Exposure to serials is a great burden on the budget.
JO:	It was a big consulting job.
HC:	It was. It was more than a full time job. It was a great experience. I could have wished I didn't have to start quite so soon. I didn't have that tradition of three months vacation or travel vacation -- (Chuckles) -- that people usually look forward to.
JO:	Have you done other consulting then?
HC:	Oh I've done some appraisal of collections. I still do that occasionally, and I am going on another consulting job in Chicago next week. These come out of the air. You don't know what to expect. And I consulted on another new library just starting in another institution, a few days with them.
01:34:55
JO:	Your article on ethics suggests that you've been having some historical and philosophical thoughts in your retirement. Could you comment on some of your other backward glances and philosophical thoughts about the profession.
HC:	Well, I don't profess to be very philosophical. I think I'm concerned more with relation of people to each other -- And it particularly amazes me, meeting people in this world as they go into businesses they don't care for, if they can't do better at the job they have -- they're holding, what would they rather be doing? I think of that in connection with clerks and with attendants at desks and with the guardians of the threshold, the Xerox personnel and this kind of thing, and it's all the way through. Because, it takes less energy to do a thing cheerfully than to do it reluctantly, and I can't understand. (Chuckles)
JO:	Do you think this reflects a lack of commitment that's characteristic of our era, or have you noticed that all along?
HC:	I know I think it's partly that the tradition of altruism in library work goes a long way back to the days when you were supposed to work for love, and it has maintained itself, but there is so much more "what's in it for me" attitude now.
01:35:41	End of Tape 2, Side 2
Tape 3, Side 1
00:00:03
HC:	With the size of our country, we have given over many of our relationships to formal organizations. We have committees that determine what percentage of increase in salary we will get. We've turned it over to unions and other organizations, the handling of what used to be individual business. And this makes for a kind of impersonality. We permit somebody else's looking out for us, and we don't feel the same responsibility for looking out for other people, as well as ourselves.
JO:	Yes, or for our libraries.
HC:	But one of my major principals of administration is, one, nobody makes a mistake on purpose and, two, that development of staff means that you have to give everyone an opportunity to make his own mistakes. And blaming people for something that's happened and harping on something that's happened, that's unfortunate, not only makes the same error recur, but it makes everybody unhappy and does no good. It's amazing, with the amount of research that's been done to indicate that praise gains you much more than blame, that we still fall into the habit patterns of, "look what he did". We sign our initials on every little thing so that if a mistake is made, we can say, "you did that?” (Chuckles)
JO:	(Laughs) We sign our catalog cards. I can just see twenty years from now someone saying -- ha, look what you did!
HC:	When I think of all the initials of mine out at Iowa State, on the tens of thousands of books I classified while I was there, and I can imagine people shake their heads over me.
00:02:11
JO:	Well, I have finished with the series of written questions that were prepared in advance. Have there been things that I should have asked about, that I missed, or other things that you wish to mention?
HC:     Well, as I say, I think my generation were very naive about administration, but most of these names you hear had staffs of very loyal colleagues and fellow workers, and that's because of what they were willing to give to the profession, and what they were willing to give to their colleagues, a kind of selflessness that I think it is important to be preserved. I have been very fortunate to work all my life with people who were more capable than I was, and I have gained by it. And I think it's important to recognize this, and also important to try to pass on some of that benefit to the succeeding people. I've never been very ambitious to get ahead. I've done jobs which had been given to me that I figured needed to be done.
JO:      And you mentioned earlier you did things you liked.
HC:      Yes, and I think I have floated through very pleasant waters by doing it that way. Well, that's my way of doing it. Others have a much more organized and much more determined approach. But I read a comment one time, "you can't criticize a person because he is not somebody else" -- But the corollary of that is, that you can't try to be somebody else. It doesn't work.
JO:      Thank you very much for letting me interview you.
HC:      It's not often you're able to spend a good part of a day talking about yourself. (Chuckles)
JO:      Well, you've earned it. Thank you!
00:04:08	End of Tape 3. 

END OF INTERVIEW.

Bibliography of articles by or about Helen Crawford

1.  News about appointment of Helen Crawford to University of  Wisconsin Medical Library.  Bulletin of the MLA 34(1):33, January 1946. 
 
2.  Discussion of Miss Marshall's Report, May 29, 1947.  Comment by Miss  Crawford.  Bulletin of the MLA 35(3):216, July 1947. 
 
3.  Discussion on establishment of an Exchange Committee, to supervise or advise the Exchange Manager.  Comment by Miss Crawford. Bulletin of the MLA 35(3):268, July 1947. 
 
4.  Report of the Committee on Interlibrary Loans.  Code for Interlibrary Loans.  Miss Crawford was a member of the Committee and signed the report also.  Bulletin of the MLA 35(3):350, July 1947. 
 
5.  Crawford, Helen.  Medical library extension service.  Bulletin of the MLA 37(1):15-22, January 1949. 
 
6.  48th Annual meeting of MLA, comment on the report of Miss Crawford on the Committee on Extension Work in Medical Libraries.   Bulletin of the MLA 37(4):301, October 1949.  

7.  ______________ Committee on Extension Work in Medical Libraries. (report)  Bulletin of the MLA 38(4):363, October 1950. 
 
8.  ______________ Army Medical Library Classification.  Medicine.  J. of cataloging and classification 7:127-28, Fall 1951. 
 
9.  ______________ Armed Forces Medical Library Catalog 1952 (Book review) Bulletin of the MLA 42(3):378-9, July 1954. 
     
10.  News item about Mid-West Regional Group meeting in Detroit. Helen Crawford made a member of the Executive Committee.   45(1):102, January 1957. 
 
1l.  Mid-West Regional Group Fall meeting in Madison, WI.  Miss Crawford as Program Chair, introduced the speakers.  Bulletin of the MLA      46(2):290, April 1958. 
 
12.  Letter to the Editor quoting Helen Yast's description of moving the AHA Library, signed by Miss Crawford.  Bulletin of the MLA 47(3):352, July 1959. 
 
13.  Panel discussion:  Planning a Better Medical School Library.   Miss Crawford is a participant. (p. 194-96, 203-06) Bulletin of the MLA     49(2):187-206, April 1961. 

14.  _______________   Rachel K. Schenk.  Bulletin of bibliography 23 (7):145-46, Jan-April, 1962.

15.  News item in Personal Notes, concerning the Presidential Citation given by the Wisconsin State Medical Society to Miss Crawford for her service to the state.  Bulletin of the MLA 50(3):621, July 1962. 
 
16.  ______________ Notes of a librarian on contemplating her Xerox machine.  Bulletin of the MLA 51(3):397-99, July 1963. 
 
17.  ______________ Pursuit of flexibility. IN:  Library Building Institute, 1963.  Chicago, Problems and planning library facilities. ALA, 1964, p. 192-94. 
 
18.  ______________ Regional plans for Medical Library Service:    proposal for an expanded medical library extension service for      Wisconsin.  Bulletin of the MLA 52(3):514-20, July 1964. 
 
19.  ______________ Report of the Exchange Committee.  Bulletin of the MLA 52(4):742--44, October 1964. 
 
20.  ______________ Centralization vs. Decentralization in Medical School libraries.  Bulletin of the MLA 54(3):199-205, July 1966. 
 
21.  ______________ UW Interlibrary Loan policy:  services with relation to the Division for Library Services, Dept. of Public Instruction.   Wisconsin Library Bulletin 62:231-41, July 1966. 
 
22.  News item in Proceedings of the 67th annual meeting of MLA in Denver, 1968.  Session on Medical Library Buildings reports comments by Miss Crawford.  Bulletin of the MLA 56:435-36, October (?) 1968. 
 
23.  Holtz, Virginia and Crawford, Helen.  Medical library services in Wisconsin.  Wisconsin Medical Journal 67:439-443, September 1968.

24.  ______________ I've always wanted to attend an auction at     Sotheby's.  AB Bookman  p. 635-639, September 1-8, 1969.  Reprinted from U.W. Library News, April 1969. 

25.  News story:  Curiosity, perseverance and homework:  prerequisites for a book auction.  UWH News Review: University of Wisconsin Hospitals, Madison 9 (2):4-5, February 1970.

26.  Middleton Medical Library obtains parts of historic Edinburgh collection.  Wisconsin Medical Alumni Quarterly 10(2):1-4, Spring   1970. 

27.  ______________ Treasure or white elephant.  Bulletin of the MLA 58(3):336-340, July 1970. 
            
28.  _____________   The Royal Medical Society of Edinburgh:  sale of its library at Sotheby's.  Bulletin of the MLA 58(4):531-547, October 1970.  (Expanded version of the news item in #20) 
 
29.  _____________   Technical processing.  preservation of library  materials.  In:  Annan, G.L. and Felter, J.W., eds.  Handbook of  medical Library Practice.  Chicago, Medical Library Association, 1970.  pages 135-52.  

30.  Holtz, Virginia.  Helen Crawford retires. U.W. Library News    XVI: 11-12, October 1971. 
 
31.  News item:  Med Library's Helen Crawford retires. Wisconsin Medical Alumni Quarterly 11(4): 11, Fall 1971. 
 
32.  ______________ Buying books at auction.  In:  Institute on the Acquisition of Foreign Materials, 1971, University of Wisconsin. Acquisition of library materials for U.S. libraries.  Scarecrow, 1973. pages 158-71. 
 
33.  Holtz, Virginia.  Helen Crawford, President, Medical Library Association, 1972/73, and photo on  President's Page.  Bulletin of the MLA 60(3):496-98, July 1972. 
    
34.  ______________ President's page.  Column in Bulletin of the MLA 60     (4):585-86, October 1972. 
 
35.  News item:  Helen Crawford honored at Fall Meeting.  Wisconsin Medical Alumni Quarterly 12(1):7-11, 1972. 
     
36.  ______________ President's page.  Column in Bulletin of the MLA 61(1):63-64, January 1973. 
 
37.  ______________ Inaugural address.  Presented at the     Seventy-first Annual Meeting of the Medical Library Association, San Diego-Coronado, CA, June 15, 1972.  Bulletin of the MLA 61(1):173-76. 
 
38.  ______________ In search of an ethic of medical librarianship.  Bulletin of the MLA 66(3):331-37, July 1978. 
 
39.  _____________   Response on receipt of Emeritus faculty award.  Wisconsin Medical Alumni Quarterly 21:13, Summer 1981. 

DATES, PLACES OF ANNUAL MEETINGS AND PRESIDENTS OF MLA
DURING THE PERIOD OF THIS ORAL HISTORY

1941 to
1945	no meeting	Mary Louise Marshall
1946		W.D. McDaniel II, Ph.D.
1947	Cleveland	Eileen R. Cunningham
1948	Philadelphia	Janet Doe
1949	Galveston	Sanford V. Larkey, M.D.
1950 	Boston	Marjorie J. Darrach
1951	Denver, 50th  	L. Margueriete Prime
1952	Lake Placid	William D. Postell
1953	Salt Lake City	Marion Dondale
1954	Washington D.C.	Wilma Troxel
1955	Milwaukee	Wesley Draper
1956	Los Angeles, 55th	Bertha Hallam   
1957	New York	Thomas E. Keyes
1958	Rochester, MN	Isabelle T. Anderson
1959	Toronto	Mildred Jordon
1960	Kansas City	Robert T. Lentz
1961	Seattle, 60th	Gertrude L. Annan
1962	Chicago	Frank Bradway Rogers, M.D.
1963	Washington D.C.	Louise Darling
1964	San Francisco	Estelle Brodman, Ph.D.
1965	Boston	Alfred N. Brandon
1966	Philadelphia, 65th	Mildred C. Langner
1967	Miami	Scott Adams
1968	Denver	Jacqueline W. Felter
1969	Louisville 	Elliot H. Morse
1970	New Orleans	Donald Washburn, D.D.S.
1971	New York, 70th	Bernice M. Hetzner
1973	San Diego	Helen Crawford
1974	San Antonio	Sara C. Brown
1975	Cleveland	Samuel W. Hitt
1976	Seattle, 75th	Barbara Coe Johnson

INDEX 

Ackerknecht, Erwin H. (Prof. of the History of Medicine UWMS), 12, 40, 41, 56, 57, 59, 60
Adams, Scott (National Library of Medicine and MLA Pres 1967-68), 22, 23, 69
American Association for the History of Medicine, 33
American Association of Medical Colleges, 22
American Library Assoc (ALA), 9, 10, 30, 61, 67
American Medical Assoc (AMA), 13, 21, 34
Annan,Gertrude (NY Acad of Medicine Library and MLA Pres 1961-62), 30, 42, 44, 61, 68, 69
Arizona Medical Center, 19
Artelt, Walter (Lect. in History of Medicine UWMS and Prof of the History of Medicine at Univ of Frankfurt, 57
Bardeen, Charles (First Dean of UWMS), 21
Bayne, Helen (NYU College of Medicine), 34
Bernard, Claude (1813-78 French physiologist), 41
Bishop, David (LA County Medical Assoc Library), 54
Bloomquist, Harold (Columbia Univ Medical Library and Harvard Medical Library), 14, 21, 22
Board of Directors, MLA, 2, 3, 44
Brudvig, Glenn (Dir of Biomedical Library at Univ of Minnesota), 51
Bulletin of the Medical Library Association, 20, 21, 23, 30, 32, 33, 52, 55
CE program, 42
Centralization v Decentralization, 67
Certification, 2, 4, 48, 52, 53
Certification Committee, 4, 48, 52, 53
Committee on Committees, 45, 46
Committee on Standards, 37
Crawford, Helen (UW Medical Library and MLA Pres 1972-73), 2, 3, 6, 20, 23, 30, 32, 52, 55, 61, 66, 68, 69
Cunningham, Eileen (Vanderbilt Univ Medical Library and MLA Pres 1947-48), 9, 10
Darling, Louise (Biomedical Library UCLA and MLA Pres 1963-64), 26, 48, 53, 69
Dast, James (Middleton Library Historical Collection at UW), 60
Doe, Janet (NY Acad of Medicine Library and MLA Pres 1948-49), 33, 69
Dondale, Marion (Albany Medical College Library and MLA Pres 1953-54), 33, 69
Ebert, Myrl (UNC-Chapel Hill), 34
Equipment Refresher Course, 4, 30
Erwin, Ericka (UWMS Library), 12
Esterquest, Ralph T. (School of Dentistry Library at Harvard Univ), 30
Exchange Committee, 4, 47, 53, 66, 67
Finance Committee, 52
Fry, Alderson (WV Medical College), 23
Fulton, John Farquhar (1899-1960) (Prof. of Physiology at Yale Univ), 32
Goals Committee, 49
Goode, Otilia (AMA Library), 37
Heidelberger, Charles (Prof at McArdle Cancer Research Laboratory at UW), 16
Hetzner, Bernice (Univ of Nebraska College of Medicine Library and MLA Pres 1971-72), 37, 69
History of Medicine, 2, 3, 12, 42, 54, 56, 57
Hitt, Samuel W. (UNC Medical Library and MLA Pres 1974-75), 27, 69
Holtz, Virginia (UW Health Sciences Library), 16, 19, 27, 67, 68
Index Medicus, 22, 47
Iowa State University, 4, 8
Joeckel, Carl (Dean of Univ of Chicago Library School), 8
Johnson, Barbara Coe (MLA Pres 1975-76), 45, 69
Jones, Lee, 46
Jordan, Mildred (Calhoun Medical Library at Emory Univ and MLA Pres 1959-60), 31
Journal of Medical Education, 22
Laatz, Mary Jane (Indiana Univ School of Medicine Library), 24
Laennec, Rene Theophile Hyacinthe (1781-1826), 41
Larkey, Sanford V., MD (Welch Medical Library at Johns Hopkins Univ and MLA Pres 1949-50), 36, 69
Leake, Chauncey D. (Prof of Pharmacology at UW), 59, 60
Lentz, Robert (Th. Jefferson Medical School and MLA Pres 1960-61), 17, 44, 69
LoSasso, John (Executive Secretary of MLA), 52
Mani, Nikolas (Prof of the History of Medicine at UW), 57, 59
Marshall, Mary Louise (Tulane Medical Library and MLA Pres 1941-46), 15, 32, 36, 66, 69
McArdle Cancer Research Laboratory at UWMS, 16
Medical College of Wisconsin in Milwaukee, 43
Medical Library Assoc (MLA), 2, 3, 4, 5, 16, 18, 20, 30, 32, 34, 37, 38, 39, 41, 44, 50, 53, 54, 55, 61, 66, 67, 68, 69
Medical Library Service, 2, 16, 20, 23, 67
Meek, Walter (Prof of Physiology and Acting Dean of UWMS), 12
Memorial Library at UW, 26, 57, 58
Midwest Regional Group, 4, 37
Miller, G. Paul, 58
National Library of Medicine, 21, 22
Naylor, Mildred (Martinsville NJ Exchange Manager), 33
Neu, John (UW Memorial Library History of Science Bibliographer), 58
Nightingale, Florence, 40
Numbers, Ronald (Prof of the History of Medicine at UWMS), 57
OCLC, 31
Overmier, Dr. Judith (Curator of Wangensteen Library at Univ of Minnesota Medical School), 1, 3
Potter, Van R. (Prof of Biochemistry at McArdle Cancer Research Laboratories UW), 17
Prime, L. Margueriete (American College of Surgeons Library), 10, 69
Ramsey, Gladys (UWMS Library), 11
Rath, Gernot (Prof of the History of Medicine at UW), 57
Regional Medical Library, 23, 24
Richardson, Maurice L (Radiologist from UW Class of 1911 and benefactor of Middleton Library at UW), 58
Risse, Guenter (Prof of the History of Medicine at UWMS), 57
Robinow, Beatrix (Univ of Natal in Durban South Africa), 32
Rogers, Frank Bradway (National Library of Medicine and MLA President 1962-63), 28
Royal College of Physicians, 40
Royal College of Surgeons, 40
Royal Society of Apothecaries, 40
Royal Society of Medicine, 40
Schenk, Rachel (Dir of Library School at UW), 19, 67
Schmidt, Helen Brown (First Executive Secretary of the MLA), 51, 52
Sigerist, Henry (Prof at the Institute of the History of Medicine at Johns Hopkins Univ), 33
Simmons College, 4
Throckmorton, Dr. Jeannette (Dir of the Iowa State Medical Library in Des Moines), 34
Troxel, Wilma (Univ of Illinois Library of Medical Sciences in Chicago), 11, 33, 69
University of Chicago, School of Library Science, 4, 7, 11
Veterans' Bonus, 12
Waples, Douglas, 8
Washburn, Donald (ADA Library in Chicago), 47, 69
Wisconsin Library Association, 61
Wisconsin Medical Journal, 20, 67