UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #385
SHAW, ROBERT J.

SHAW, Robert J. (1917-1996)
Undergraduate and Law Student
At UW: 1936-1940

First Interview
Interviewed: 1990	
Interviewer: Mailed questionnaire
Length: 1.5 hours

Background; Student life; Writing for Badger Yearbook and Daily Cardinal; Sigma Nu fraternity experience; Influence of Ruth Wallerstein, William Kiekhofer, Wallace Stegner, Walter Agard and Lloyd Garrison; Firing of President Glenn Frank; Opening of Union Theater; Campus social events; Course taught by Sinclair Lewis; Dean Scott Goodnight; Career as screen writer for TV shows including "Mr. District Attorney," "Peyton Place," "Medical Center," "Hawaiian Eye" and "Dallas."

Second Interview1
Interviewed: 1989	
Interviewer: Self-recorded
Length: 0.5 hour

Background; B.A. in English; Year in Law School; Influence of English Professor Wallace Stegner and Dean of Law School Lloyd Garrison; Career after leaving UW.

FIRST INTERVIEW

00:00:00	Self-introduction by Robert Shaw

00:00:31	Entered UW in 1936 as a freshman.  Received B.A. in English in 1939.  Went to UW Law School for one year in 1940.  Member of Sigma Nu fraternity.  Talks about time spent at the UW over the summer.

00:01:55	Went to Shorewood High School in a suburb of Milwaukee.  Graduated in 1935 and was valedictorian.

00:02:15	Did not consider any other college but UW.  His father graduated from UW Law School and became a very successful Milwaukee lawyer.  RS was only child and he, as well as his family, took it for granted that RS would take over his father's practice.

00:04:17	He never really thought about career goals--it was just taken for granted that he would be a lawyer.

00:04:32	Recalls no freshman hazing in his days at UW.

00:05:11	RS recalls that he was asked by the editor of the 1938 Badger Yearbook and fraternity brother, Paul Godfrey, to select and write about outstanding professors and undergraduates for the Badger.  He selected his favorite professor, Ruth Wallerstein from the English department.  RS reads passage.  He would write the same if asked today.

00:07:06	RS speaks briefly of Helen C. White, who he knew but never took a course with.

00:07:35	He also selected Professor of Economics, William Kiekhofer.  He would never cut his class.  He was so influenced by Kiekhofer he considered majoring in Economics.

00:08:55	Doesn't recall any clubs or organizations for undergraduate English majors.

00:09:21	Another person who greatly influenced him was his senior thesis advisor, Wallace Stegner, who is today a distinguished writer and professor emeritus at Stanford.

00:11:24	Professor Walter Agard of the classics department was a tremendous influence in his life.  He took all of his courses that he could.  RS wrote about him in the 1938 Badger also.

00:13:53	Lloyd Garrison, Dean of the Law School played a significant role in his life also.

00:14:46	Tells story of how Garrison called RS into his office and asked him if he really liked law.  RS told him no, what he really wanted to do was write.  Garrison wrote to RS's father who he had known for 30 years and told him of RS's wishes.

00:17:23	He also wrote to the editor of the New York Times introducing RS.  RS left the next day for New York.  By Monday morning, he had a job on the Times.

00:18:08	Discusses Glenn Frank firing.  Phillip La Follette instrumental in the firing.  As a reporter for the Cardinal, RS, attended the three day session of the Regents meeting on Frank.

00:20:21	RS was irate over the affair.  He organized a march up State Street to La Follette's office in protest of the firing.  3,000 persons marched.

00:21:07	Sinclair Lewis came to UW to teach for one year to a select group of students.  RS was chosen as one of his students.  Unproven rumors of Lewis's involvement with a girl on campus forced the class to be canceled before the first semester was over.

00:22:53	Membership in Sigma Nu fraternity.  Had to give up some of your individuality--you had to conform to the ways of the fraternity.

00:24:02	RS joined Sigma Nu simply because most of the important positions on the Daily Cardinal were held by Sigma Nu men and he wanted to get to know them.

00:24:54	RS did not Rush.  He joined only to meet the people he wanted to.

00:25:25	Fraternities of the day were known to have special memberships such as the Phi Gamma's had more basketball players and Sigma Nu were largely from campus publications.

00:26:05	RS worked hard to change policies and events in fraternity.  He got Hell Week canceled.  He became president in his second year at the UW and remained for the four years he was at the frat house.

00:27:11	In place of Hazing, the Saturday night before initiation, the Sigma Nu's initiated an event called Quest.  Each pledge was giving an object to find and bring back to the house.

00:28:35	Wrote manual for national Sigma Nu chapter on how to attract members and run a fraternity.  RS believes it is still used.

00:29:03	Describes initiation.  Dean of Men, Scott Goodnight, was first guest invited to dinner after initiation.

00:30:14	Social functions.  Annual Christmas dance and annual party were usually held at Maple Bluff Country Club.

00:30:50	Most notable social activity to RS was in the summer sail boating and drinking beer while sunbathing on the pier which was on Sigma Nu property.

00:31:52	Met many good friends within the fraternity.  About 40 men lived in house.

00:32:50	Recalls Mrs. Ellistad, who ran the kitchen at the house.

00:33:16	Became good friends with one of his roommates, Jim Kliener.

00:33:46	Describes dinners at house.

00:35:34	Tells about a gentleman, T. K., who went from house to house around eleven every night with sandwiches, milk and soft drinks for sale.  It became a nightly ritual.

00:36:32	Frat members obeyed rules of good behavior.  Respected each other’s privacy.  Recalls no violations.

00:37:25	Sigma Nu's had close ties with other frats in and around their house at 625 N. Henry Street.

00:37:37	Rivalries between Greeks and independents.

00:38:49	Religion not part of frat life--said no prayers.  RS had no religious ties.

00:39:58	Tells about Big Six Sororities and one member he dated, a Delta Gamma, Betty Hill.

00:40:43	Depledging.  One vote could stop a pledge from becoming a member.  As president, RS had to justify to the pledge why he wasn't accepted.  RS hated this job.  He feels this policy is a major flaw in the fraternity system.

00:42:28	RS had a lot of leisure time.  Grades not a high priority.

00:44:14	Went to Fred Lohmaier's beer joint every night.  Could drink on credit.  RS got most of his material for his Cardinal article "Trouble Shooter" there. Went to Amber Inn or Cuba Club for more elegant evening.

00:46:22	Break for tape change.

00:46:38	He didn't spend much time in Memorial Union.  Noisy and crowded.

00:47:44	He did take dates and guests to an elegant restaurant in Union on many occasions.

00:48:38	When an undergraduate the Union Theater had its gala opening.  RS was involved.  He tells incident with actress Lynn Fontaine.

00:50:29	Describes campus social events such as Soft Shuffle, Junior Prom, Senior Dance, Winter Carnival Ball and the Military Ball.

00:51:19	Junior Prom the biggest event.  Student most concerned who was going to play for it.  Got top names--one year Tommy Dorsey with singer, Frank Sinatra.

00:52:31	A person either smoked and drank or they didn't.  Most did.  Beer was drink of choice.  Drank potent punch at fraternity parties made of canned grapefruit juice and medical alcohol.  On a date, beer would be the standard drink.

00:54:26	RS doesn't recall drugs ever being an issue.  He never experienced drugs or had friends on drugs.

00:55:34	Spectator sports.  Football games exciting time whether they won or lost.  Homecoming was a big event.

00:56:57	Intramural sports not popular.  Sigma Nu had no organized sports.

00:57:47	Father financed education.  Tells an anecdote about paying for Junior Prom.

01:00:01	RS not religious--was not brought up with religion.  Never attended any campus religious functions.

01:01:58	RS was always interested in politics.  Was campaign manager for Howard Wise, a star football player.  RS tells how he got him elected class president.  Recalls Wise attending his mother’s funeral.

01:04:52	RS elected class officer in 1939.  Ran his own campaign.

01:06:00	Daily Cardinal was a big part of his life on campus.  Did many interviews which enabled him to meet many students, professors and administrators.  Wrote "Trouble Shooter" column for Cardinal--essentially a gossip column.

01:08:08	Cardinal a very good campus newspaper and instrumental to university life.  Tells story of student politician, Ed Fleming, who objected to an article in Cardinal and destroyed all copies.

01:10:03	Recalls no prejudice toward women or blacks nor any anti-Semitism toward Jews.

01:12:53	UW images as a liberal state institution attracted people from all over the U.S. and the world.  RS respected and learned much from students from out of state--he felt them a breed apart. He recalls one student from New York in particular.

01:15:29	RS recalls no communist organizations.

01:15:58	RS visited Sigma Nu chapters on campuses on east coast and was surprised how much more aware of the pending war they were.  Only regret was that the chapter at UW was very insulated and didn't look at world around them.  RS didn't read any paper except the Cardinal or listen to the news on the radio.  They were only really aware of what was going on around them on campus. 

01:18:19	No radical groups and no student protests movements that he recalls.  There were some radical students that RS envied.

01:19:42	Discusses Dean of Men, Scott Goodnight.  He was warm man and a good friend of RS's.  He respected him and found him a delightful person.  RS interacted quite often with Goodnight as writer of the “Trouble Shooter” gossip column.

01:23:00	Discusses feeling for Glenn Frank.  Bitterly regretted his firing and its circumstances.

01:23:38	RS didn't know President Dykstra very well.

01:24:24	Discusses time in law school.

01:25:25	RS left law school to write.  At age 23 he sold first show "Mr. District Attorney" to NBC, which stayed on the air for 14 years.

01:26:31	Since then he has never been out of work writing TV programs such as "Peyton Place," "Dallas," “General Hospital,” and "Medical Center."  He loves his work.  Now enjoys teaching TV writing at UCLA.

01:27:49	RS looks back with great affection at his time at the UW.  He feels fortunate to have been able to attend such a unique institution.  His degree from the UW is as meaningful today as it was at graduation.

01:29:10	End of interview, end of digital file.

SECOND INTERVIEW

00:00:00	Self-introduction by Robert Shaw
	
00:00:30	Introduces tape as a letter to Thomas H. Murphy, of the Wisconsin Alumnus, regarding the loss of a previous biographical sketch/interview of Robert Shaw that had been lost.

00:01:46	RS was born and raised in Milwaukee.  Attended Shorewood High School.  Graduated from the UW in 1939 with a B.A. in English.  Was a Sigma Nu fraternity member.  Wrote for the Daily Cardinal. 

00:02:22	Father, James D. Shaw graduated from UW Law School.  When he died 10-15 years ago he left a large sum of money for Law School scholarships.

00:02:50	RS left Law School and went to New York City where he was given a job with NBC in the publicity department.  During this time he created his first daytime serial entitled "Front Page Farrell," starring Richard Widmark. 

00:04:22	He wrote "Mr. District Attorney" and sold it as a summer replacement for Bob Hope.  It was on the air for 14 years, 52 weeks a year, and never out of the top ten.  He wrote all 830 scripts.

00:05:03	He and his partner, Robert Montgomery, created a 1 hour nightly show entitled "Robert Montgomery Presents."  RS wrote one-half of the shows and edited the other half.  This series was successful for 2-3 years.

00:05:26	As the industry moved from the east to the west coast, RS moved to LA and hired an agent.  In LA, his reputation enabled him to get a job writing for "Zorro," produced by Walt Disney. 

00:06:40	His next project was "Highway Patrol," starring Broderick Crawford.  Although neither “Zorro” nor "Highway Patrol" were the types of shows he wanted to write for, he wrote for them because he was eager to work.

00:06:54	He sold a nighttime show of his own to Warner Brothers called "Hawaiian Eye" starring Bob Conrad and Connie Stevens.  The show received high ratings, and moved on to the lot.  He went to Honolulu frequently. They didn't take themselves seriously during their days at Warner Brothers.  RS was the only writer on lot at this time who was contracted by the year.  He had the studio sign department paint a plaque for his door that read "Studio Chaplin."

00:08:19	RS did not graduate from Law School.  He only entered it because his father was a lawyer and he felt it was expected of him.  Writing was what he loved and wanted for a career.

00:08:56	While at UW-Madison, there were two men that influenced him.  The first was a Professor of English, Wallace Stegner, who is now a distinguished writer.  Stegner served as the source of inspiration for his undergraduate thesis on American black poets.  The other person who influenced him was Lloyd Garrison, the Dean of the UW Law School.  He knew that RS was interested in writing, not law.  RS tells story of how Garrison relayed this information to RS's father through a letter.

00:11:12	Garrison also wrote a letter to the editor of the New York Times which simply said, "Here is a bright boy I think you ought to meet."  The next day RS flew to New York to meet with the editor of the Times.  The editor sent RS to NBC which launched his television writing career.

00:11:56	After leaving Warner Brothers, he went back to daytime serials.  He did "Love of Life," for 2-3 years.

00:12:12	He became head writer of seven of Proctor and Gamble's eight daytime serials.  Daytime serial writers are the highest paid writers in the business because they write for 52 weeks of the year.  He enjoys being head writer.

00:13:33	He was asked to help develop a new serial called "Peyton Place."  He spent 6 months at Twentieth Century Fox developing this show.  He wrote the first five episodes then during the next two years he wrote 50-60 scripts.

00:14:05	He was afraid the show would be taken off the air because the show was thought to be lewd and lascivious--it was the most puritanical show he's ever written.  The protagonist of the show was played by Ryan O'Neil, and his girlfriend was played by Mia Farrow.  Opening night, he went to Hawaii to avoid reviews because he was unsure of the product.  It became number one on the Nielsen charts overnight and stayed number one for a long time.     

00:15:34	RS left "Peyton Place" after 3-4 years.  Frank Glitzman invited him to dream up and produce a show for Metro-Goldwyn-Meyer called "Medical Center."  He wrote the pilot, became the story editor and wrote 20 scripts, edited the rest.  Show starred Chad Everett and Jim Daily.  He knew Jim Daily from Port Washington High School in Wisconsin.  

00:16:42	After "Medical Center" he went back into serials and wrote the daytime serials "Search for Tomorrow" and "Another World" for Proctor and Gamble.  Since they were produced in New York and RS lived in California at the time, P&G paid his way to travel to meetings, stay in the best hotels, and have limousine service.

00:17:38	Next project was a night time series,"The Long Hot Summer."

00:17:49	He was invited to take part in forming a show called "Dallas."  He wrote the preparation for "Dallas," about 10-12 episodes.  RS claims that Larry Hagman, who played J. R. Ewing, the "rock of the show," is one of the finest actors he's met.

00:19:14	ABC invited RS to revive the daytime serial called "General Hospital," which had been on the air for 25 years.  Working with a partner, they brought the show to number one and maintained the rating for the four years RS wrote for it.

00:20:25	Currently, he is a consultant to ABC serials.  He is not writing but enjoying teaching serial writing in an extension division at UCLA.

00:21:07	Concluding remarks of letter.  He has a warm affection for his days in Madison.  He says Madison is one of the best campuses he has ever been on.
00:22:15	End of interview.

00:23:42	End of digital file.

END