UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #18
CHALKLEY, GLADYS B.

CHALKLEY, Gladys B. (1891-1979)
Undergraduate Student, Home Economics
At UW: 1910-13

Interviewed: 1976	
Interviewer: Donna Taylor
Length: 1 hour

	[See Index for Key Words]

Tape 1/Side 1

00:00:00

GC:	Gladys Chalkley, interviewee. Donna Taylor, interviewer

DT:	Now, I'm very pleased that you're willing to take time on your short visit to Madison to talk to us and I understand that you were an undergraduate here - that you were one of the first graduates in home economics from the University of Wisconsin and there's alot I'd like to ask you about that but before that would you tell me a little bit about where you were born, and what determined you to go to the University at a time when perhaps not that many women were making this decision and why you came to Madison in particular.
GC:	I was born in Indiana and lived there in Wabash until I graduated from high school and then I went to Yankton College in South Dakota for a year because my cousin went to college and needing finances to go on why I taught one year in Niagra Nebraska and in the meantime my father’s company had moved him to Madison so the family decided to move to Madison and so it seemed logical for me to transfer to the University so I entered as a sophomore in 1910.

00:01:48
DT:		Could you tell me a little bit about why you decided on attending the University?
GC:	Well, it was a matter of being able to live at home while I was a student and of course I knew the reputation of the institution and felt that it was a real opportunity to attend the University.
DT:	But what I had in mind was not so much coming here as why you decided on University education. This was not something all girls did at that time.
GC:     My mother had been a teacher for 25 years and the three of us had all gone to school to her and she intended that we go to college when in the earliest years so it was nothing new in our family so it was a matter I had always had in mind.
00:02:20
DT:     That's very natural under those circumstances.

GC:     So when I entered I majored was majoring in history and I learned more about home economics I my family lived on Mill Street just less than two blocks from Lathrop Hall and that's where the department was located and so I became interested and they didn't allow us to elect home economics courses when we're liberal arts at that time so I decided to transfer to the College of Agriculture and major in home economics.   

00:02:55

So Miss Marlatt had been here just one year previous and organized the Department so when I finished in 1913 that was her first four year track and 20th was in the class and a of her grandchildren as she called them.
DT:	Of which you were one?
GC:	No, we were her children but our class was always prominent in professional work, but not represented so well in the scrapbook of children. She was a very wonderful teacher and demanded the best that we had to offer and so we really felt that we gained a great deal from our training. We had a fine faculty. It was small faculty.

DT: 	Who else beside Miss Marlett?

GC:	There were quite a number. I still correspond with Dr. Alice Loomis, head of Foods and Nutrition. She got her doctorate at Yale and % she's almost 100 now but she's still active in reading and writing.   She sent me a reprint recently on senility at which she's quite concerned so then we had other faculty in clothing and textiles and the artwork and Miss Marlett herself had a very famous course at that time called humanics that applied the principles of physical and social sciences in much of what now is included in child and family development, but at that time was not included in most home economics curriculae, but it was a very worthwhile course and we enjoyed it.   
00:05:09
	Lathrop Hall was quite the center of many activities when I was in school.   Dean   Matthews, Dean of Women, had her office there and students organizations, a self- government association, and the YWCA, I was on the cabinet, and it had lounges where
we could have all sorts of meetings - the YM and the YW would have Sunday
vespers in the large lounge and Miss [MAYHEW?] who was head of physical education was the advisor for the YW and we went to Lake Geneva in the summer for camp experiences there in the large I think was in about her first years of teaching and starting her work in the instruction on dance and of course we enjoyed the boating and swimming there in Lake so it then we had the cafeteria too, a small one and I served as checker there whenever my classes permitted in helping a little and financing my education and so then later we would have all University mixers, no-date affairs to so you see it was partly the Union building for the campus. There was no Union building at that time.

DT:     	much earlier than the Union.

00:06:43
GC:	Yes, and so living so near was really a wonderful opportunity and it seemed like so many things were centered there that it was a privilege to be in that building. They I joined the Alpha Gamma Delta sorority when I was ah first year and so it made some close friendships and campus wide friendships so I had contact with other departments. Of course, we were required to take a number of courses other places. I recall particularly my science work and heard so many discussions about size of classes and it always reminded me of the large classes that I had enjoyed in chemistry and physics. I think there were 750 in Dr. ColUnberg's freshman chemistry class. Of course we divided into our quiz sections and laboratory sections for detailed work but it was a policy of the University then where the heads to departments to teach the beginning courses so I've always been very grateful for that.
D T:	Now was this, chemistry would have been in Letters and Science?

GC:     Oh yes.    It was aimed for everybody.

DT:	I see, but as a major in the College of Agriculture there was no problem about taking

00:08:16

GC:	Oh no. Of course everything we took there are more advanced chemistry and the some in physiological and food chemistry we had over in Ag Chemistry but all the beginning courses were the same for everybody. My physiology and bacteriology along with the medical students and then we had physics. I think that was about the most unique opportunity.  Benny Snow, I suppose you’ve never heard of him, but he

DT:	Yes, as a matter of fact I have.
GC:	He was a very marvelous teacher and we were told not to study the text until after the work was presented in his lectures and demonstrations and our lecture was at 11:00 in the morning and he would come there at 7:00 in the morning usually to prepare for it and he had a huge demonstration table and all these things were set up and he would perform his famous lecture on snowflakes was most colorful and I've seen him come in and by the end of his lecture his white collar would be wilted and but he was just so enthusiastic that it was contagious. We really I think were inspired enjoyed that work that some people find rather difficult and non-interesting. We certainly enjoyed physics. I think it was a very good policy that they had at that time.

00:10:09

DT:	Now was this something that alot of students took and
GC:	Well there were 500 in freshman section. Of course the engineers I think took it the physics at the same time. You see they gave the fundamentals in the first course.
DT:     I was thinking particularly about women.   How many girls took this?
GC:	Well I don't recall. Of course all the home economics students were required to take it. And I didn't think we were conspicuous particularly. Of course the majority of men in the University then certainly probably I don't know from or not.  I hadn't really thought about that. I guess there probably were more many in proportion.
DT:	Oh, there were definitely more men than there are now.
GC:	Yes
DT:	 Many, many more men students than women students at that time. 
GC:	Well there are now too
DT:     But the proportions I think have changed.   I'm not sure just how great that is.
00:11:13
GC:	Well home economics in the beginning was almost 100% a woman's field and so it offered opportunity for leadership that many other fields didn't so that my mother always said we need home economists from coast to coast and I think maybe that was true in my later professional work.   Now there are many more men in home economics.   I think that's fine because more emphasis is being placed on child and family development, human relations and less probably on some of the techniques and certainly families are made up of men as well as women so I think the whole point of view is very good.

DT:	Well I think probably you'd find a little argument about this although I was somewhat surprised to find out just how much appeal this has become for men and how much in demand they were - male graduates finding, for instance, that the job problem does not exist for them in this area to the extent that it does in many other fields

GC:    Well they have a little tendency to want to take over. I don't know. Particularly in the—we are in a field of applied science and art and so of course we do depend on basic fields as a physical sciences where it emphasized more the beginning. The social sciences were not well developed when I was in school. I mean sociology and, of course, economics was well started but not anything like it is at the present time so that there has been greater emphasis on the social sciences so in certain places they, depending on what phase of home economics the person wants to go on in, whether they need more background in the physical sciences or the social sciences - of course in child and family development it's sociology and psychology are very important of course. Economics throughout, I guess, we feel that at the present time we put emphasis on the consumer. As I've said I think that home economics has contributed to the opportunity women have had for dual roles because they figured certainly in the development of our frozen and preserved foods of all kinds and all the mixes and ready-prepared things that have had a great part in developing those so I think it's made a real contribution there.

00:14:43

Of course, as far as going back to the students we certainly had strong student spirit.   I think football was one of the major interests and we always had preceding a football games rallies and bonfires down on campus. I don't suppose they're allowed to do that anymore, are they?
DT:		No.

GC: 	And so Friday night - no more bonfires.    I don't think you probably have space for that even.   You have so many new buildings - open spaces are taken up although campus is still beautiful I think and I haven't been along Lakeshore Drive yet but that used to be a very favorite place of ours.
DT:	Well, I think you'll find it still quite lovely. 
GC:	Do they still have use a skyrocket? in
DT:	Ah, I've heard it talked about but I don't believe they do.

00:15:53

GC:	That was a very distinctive thing about campus at that time and the favorite confessors always got their skyrockets to begin with. Carl Russell Fish and Dr. Sellery were history professors I had at the beginning and we always opened those classes with the skyrocket and I've seen outside lecturers come and almost pale under the long beginning hiss for the skyrocket. They wouldn't know what was coming until the thing was completed but I think it's kind of too bad they've given that up because I don't know of any other campus that ever had it.

DT:	Well that's the trouble with traditions. They don't always continue.

00:16:39

GC:	No that's certainly is true and each one has its place I presume.  The—I don't know what... I had some programs here—farm and home week back in 1912 and 13 and found my name on the program for contribution. I often wondered what junior or senior would have to offer and maybe we were pushed ahead and a little bit more than the students are now in some ways.

DT:     So farm and home week has been an important event.

GC:		They still have it. But I presume it's largely the faculty that constitutes the program.
DT:	Well I'm not so sure. I think the students play quite a part. You don't recall what your contribution was.
GC:	Well I have those programs upstairs but I didn't happen to bring them down here. You don't have a Dean of Women now on the campus.
00:17:54
DT:     No this situation is a little different.   Who was Dean of Women when you were here?
GC:	Dr. Lois Kimble Matthews and she was a very, very remarkable woman and we profited with her a great deal I think by her acquaintance and guidance. She wrote a history of the American Association of University Women.   I think one other woman and she did a great deal to help the women students in a variety of ways and so it's hard for me to think of the campus without someone for students to go to but, of course, you have guidance offices.
DT:	Well we do have a Dean of Students.

GC:	Yes, but the guidance functions are more academic than personal I presume.
DT:	Well it depends on which center you go to. They do make a considerable effort to help students with personal problems.
00:19:02
GC:		The, uh, Miss Zuell who succeeded Miss Marlett was a personal friend of mine and we shared an apartment when we were taking graduate work so, of course, I knew her very well.
DT:	You knew her very well then.
GC:	Yes. And so it's been a privilege to, opportunity for me to keep up with developments here. I had the pleasure of going down to see her at the retirement home on Tuesday and her mind is as clear as a bell and she is, of course, still very much interested in everything that goes on but she's having some health problems.   
00:19:46
I still think of, of course, I went as I said I taught in local high school—Dr. Thomas Lloyd Jones was principal of the high school. He had been with Dr. Harvey when he started Stout Institute and he had had Stout graduates for his teachers for the most part and he wasn't quite sure what Miss Marlett's graduates—with all the emphasis on science and other work—could do in high school teaching. So I was sort of a guinea pig for him to observe what could be done, I guess and—
DT:		Was this the first time this the home economics was taught in the high school?
GC:	Oh no. They had all the teachers from South—
DT:	Oh, I see.
GC:		—and so he visited us often and I thoroughly enjoyed working with him and then -

DT:	Now this was at Central High did you say?

00:21:00

GC:	Yes, yes. I was just there two years and then went to Platteville Normal. I was interested in driving through there last Thursday and stopped.   Let's see - developments down there are really quite striking. Everything that in the institution was in one large building down there when I was there and, of course, they got quite a campus there now with all kinds of development so things do change for the better I'm sure because Wisconsin is certainly well supplied with educational institutions.    It seemed that way even coming from California and, of course, California has so many of the -
DT:	It has very large system

GC:	Yes, nine different campuses for the University as such and I don't know how many state colleges and some of those have been changed to universities but their junior colleges are really the remarkable thing there. I think they have over 90 and so of course, they take care of practically all the vocational education work. When they started they took it all out of the high schools and which I thought in a cinch was maybe not wise because some people don't want to go on even through 18 with liberal arts if they don't want it. So...
DT:	That's true.
00:22:34
GC:	But Wisconsin has always stood out on very fine vocational education program. We had the dual system when I was here. I don't know if they still have or not.

DT:	What do you mean by the dual system?

GC:	Well, a state's supervision of vocational schools is separate from the general and they divided Central and made it into a vocational high school and then the general after I left and, of course, the big Milwaukee trade school - that's one of the outstanding ones in the country I think.
DT:	Well I think the vocational schools that used to be is now the Madison Area Technical College.

GC:	Yes, well that's the same thing.

DT:	It's the same thing. It's just changed its name and grown considerably.

GC:		But that's probably a little higher level too. Would it correspond to the high school?

DT:	Well in some areas I think but it's also possible for people to take some courses there for college credit.

GC:	In California they either go in for vocational training or first two years at a university or just as a terminal course for general education - and which if they take certain requirements, they get an AE degree.  But the University tried to push more the first two years down into these schools, but the technical vocational work is their distinctive contribution because everybody can't go to the university or shouldn’t go I don't think so.

DT:	Of course, there's a problem here now because just as last year there's been a limit placed on growth and enrollment which means that I guess for the first time qualified students are not able to go to the University of Wisconsin at least not to this campus
GC:	How has that affected the non-resident students?
DT:	Well it's curtailed in all areas, but it even includes Wisconsin students. And so there's been considerable discussion of this and it's not development that people are terribly happy about I guess.

GC:	Well you're referring particularly to the Madison campus I presume.
DT:	Well, this is the one I know the most about but I understand limits are not only imposed here. Milwaukee also is having this problem.
GC:	But the other campuses are still fairly open I presume.
DT:	More so, but I think there has been a real problem that's developed and the suggestion has been made and I think this is probably unlikely that a number of students—more than would—will go to vocational school.
00:25:46
GC:	Well I feel that I've had a very interesting professional life. I, of course, at Montana State we - let's see - a new state in a way, and yet had a fine institution there. And we developed closely with the extension and research. Of course it's a delightful place to live, too, and so I hated very much to leave there after 25 years but I did go to Ohio State largely because of the opportunity of developing a program for the PhD. degree in home economics prior to our starting our own program there had been 26 that had gotten their degrees in education at Ohio State and in some of the basic sciences. But it had all the necessary facilities there and I think now they have quite a fine program. And there were a limited number of opportunities because it is an applied field and so of course it depended on a combination of work.   There had been some special basic field in carrying on either in the food and nutrition and from your chemistry and other areas and then this new family and child development in the social sciences and the textiles and clothing. Of course the textiles are certainly on high specialization in chemistry and the clothing more in the art but also the psychological aspects too quite a bit because why do we need the clothing.   It creates a great interest and value of it so it's field that touches down so many different aspects just as life itself does so -
00:28:11

DT:		Well, I think we have a tendency not to realize just how broad appealled it really is.

GC:	Now of course, tending to break up into more specializations than was probably true before. Of course the further the more you accumulate in subject matter in each phase, why of course that's true in medicine or any other field that greater and greater specialization which has some value.
DT:	Do you think this is good?
GC:	Well in general but I still am strong for basic core in home economics because it seems to me that it is a composite vocation and you just need to have management ability and not only finances but time and personnel and basic knowledge of nutrition, clothing and all phases to carry on successful homemaking and it seems to me of course maybe students come with more of that from their secondary education required in some other phase but that's... I think we need, as I say, a common core for best results. But it's a time of change in every phase of work and so of course the people that are in charge now are the ones to make those decisions so my point of view may not be quite the same.

DT:	Well it's hard to project what's going to develop.  When you were here and several things you mentioned that interested me—you said that there was a lot of campus spirit. Of course we're familiar with the issues that have been alive here in the last decade. What were the major things going on when you were a student?

00:30:42
Tape 1/ Side 2
00:31:15
DT:	Of course we're familiar with the issues that have been alive here in the last decade.   What were the major things going on when you were a student?
GC:	Well athletics were the common denominator I suppose for the University spirit. Naturally everyone was interested in that. And as I said we didn't have the Union building but we did have campus social events I presume more than two at the present time. I don't know what they do for the affiliated students in the way of trying to provide some social life as well as... But I presume the Union helps a great deal in that regard.  Certainly there were people with enough individual ideas on the campus, but there certainly was not the rebellious spirit or the feeling that they had to go all out like what developed in the 60's I guess. Wouldn't you say that was the decade that was most radical activities?

00:32:29

DT:	I think I would have to. Was there a lot of - there probably wasn't as much—but what was the political sense on campus? Was there a lot of interest in this area?

GC:	You mean government?

DT:	Interest in political development.
GC:	Campus politics?

DT:	Well, both campus and nationwide.
GC:	Well I think probably there was plenty of interest in campus politics. I believe a little less in outside politics. At least many others would differ with me but as I look back it seems to me that that was less a problem. But of course the political science people probably would feel differently about it and women were not taking quite as active a part although we did get woman's suffrage long after that too.
00:33:31
DT:	Were you interested in any of that?
GC:	Oh of course I think we were interested.   I was out of school at that time but we were interested in it and had high hopes that women would become more active in politics and I don't know what the explanation is.   I think sometimes they're a little thin-skinned.   They're afraid of the criticism and the high pains that they have to go through. But I think women and men should work together.   I think they each have their own contribution to make and we'd be better off if we had a better balance of men/women active in governmental affairs.
00:34:25
DT:	Getting back to athletics, I was wondering what kind of athletic program there was for women when you were here.
GC:	Well we did not have any outside competition. There was quite a bit among the sororities. They had bowling teams and there were independent groups, too, that were organized. And of course, swimming was part of an activity. They played hockey and other games that was in competitive - and basketball was quite a sport at that time, but not much intercollegiate. Transportation was not so easy then as it is now, and they weren't as well developed.    I don't recall basketball being as prominent even then when I went to Montana—of course basketball was a major sport because of the football season was so very short.   Basketball season naturally indoor was longer so that's where I remember basketball most.
DT:	I see.

GC:	We didn't have the swimming or the tennis facilities that you have indoors now which is wonderful.

DT:	Well that's true. Those are fairly recent.
GC:	Skiing was the students were interested in that.   Tobogganing we had - downhill to the lake. Do they still do that?
DT:	No they don't. I think the skiers go off to other places.
GC:	The crews—they were interested in that.
DT:	Well the crews still goes on.
GC:	We canoed considerably there.   I remember one Memorial Day taking two couples. We went down to the four lakes and I don't know whether the students enjoy canoeing much now or not.

DT:	Well I don't know how it would compare.

00:36:46
GC:	Well that was sort of a major interest I would say because it was of course they... The Old Armory was our major auditorium - in fact about the only one we had for public lectures and things.   Of course, they did use the, I guess, the stock pavilion some too.   It was still it was there at that time. You're still using that.
DT:	Oh yes. Yes.  In fact the University doesn't use the Old Armory for this purpose. It does not. It's primarily well the pool is still there and on the second floor basketball goes on and practices year round.

GC:		There’s assembly. Of course you do have the Union building theatre, but that isn't for very large groups. I mean—

DT:		Now there is really no, no terribly large place. I think stock pavilion is still the biggest.

GC:	Well Wisconsin has always had pretty active state politics. I think and possibly there was interest more in state politics than there was in national. The LaFollettes were active. I don't know just what time, but people—I just don't know their years exactly—but they certainly were prominent while I was around.

00:38:22
DT:	Now during the years that you were away in Montana and Ohio and so forth, as an alumnus, did you, how closely did you keep in touch with what was going on in Madison?
GC:	Well as I said I was back at least once a year and sometimes oftener visiting my family and so of course that brought me back and I've been a life member of the alumni association from the very beginning so I always get the magazine and that is a very good way of keeping in touch I think. So that and... local clubs we had groups in San Diego now of Wisconsin alumni.

DT:	It's a very active group?
GC:	Well, we meet usually about twice a year, especially if there's somebody coming and the President was down there not so long ago.
DT:	President Weaver?
GC:	Yes and of course the crew was down there this spring and I it wasn't a pleasant a day as it might have been so and I had other things I had hoped to get there but I didn't get down so, but I still read about it anyhow.
DT:	Does this group, is it active in any way in scholarship program?

GC:	Well, I think not as a group I think. It probably more is individuals, that is we all contribute to the alumni foundation

DT:	But as a group you don't actively raise money for scholarships?
GC:	No I think not. I imagine that's more in the state association, state locals I think. I don't know.

DT:	I just don't know. It occurred to me to wonder.

GC:	Because those who’re away only meet once or twice a year just...
DT:	We mentioned a few minutes ago (Telephone ringing or could have been the doorbell) We referred a few minutes ago to the protest period...
GC:	The what?
DT:	The period you know in the 60's from the campus protest where 
GC:	Oh yes.
DT:		And I was wondering what reaction there was in the alumni group that-  to these events.
GC:	Well, of course, we were not too happy about it, but it was happening on most campuses well I think maybe a little I don't any more openly here than at Berkeley anyhow. So we couldn't but just didn't constructive it didn't seem to be. It just seemed to be all so destructive. There were against things but there was very little things that I could see they were for work.

DT:	Did you know there was a lot of criticism of handling of this?
GC:	Well I don't know. I just think that it was so new then that very few knew how to handle it. And what would work on one campus wouldn't necessarily work on another. You had some very strong student leadership I think here that had probably more than the usual amount of freedom so that maybe they went just a little farther.   I heard some weren't too pleased over the recent interest in helping the students who caused that bombing.
DT:	Oh were you speaking of David Fine?
GC:	Yes.
DT:	Yes. There was, well, the Cardinal I think, came out with a proposal to
GC:	Finance his and it seemed a little far-fetched to me at any rate but he's had considerable time to take care of himself or else... I don't really know where he was found.
DT:	I haven't been following it that closely but—
GC:	The thing isn't finished yet though I guess.
DT:	Oh no. He hasn't come to trial yet although I think he will soon.
GC:	Well I'm glad that there seems to be a swing back on most campuses to a little more normal attitude—even toward in living situations—the dormitories are getting quite popular all over I think. Crowded down at Ohio State I know. I guess they're full here aren't they?
DT:	They are now yes there was a time when -
GC:	—deserted almost.
DT:	There was a move to living off campus.

GC:		Yes, in small apartments and so forth. I guess they got a little tired of that.

DT:		Well it still goes on but of course the growth of the university has had an effect.

GC:	Well I think many are seeing the advantages in the dormitories, too.

DT:	Now did you live at home while you were at the university?
GC:	Yes, I was quite close to the campus.

DT:	When you did say that your sorority activity
GC:	Yes and small groups and some responsibility that way so that I contacted the students.
00:44:27
DT:	You also mentioned being on the YWCA cabinet. Well it's hard for you to know maybe, do you feel that this was more active as a campus group?
GC:	I'm sure it was. Definitely it was a very active - both the YM and the YW. Do they still have the YM building on the campus? I guess not.

DT:	I know what you're thinking of...
GC:	Well there was a great big one I think where the Center is now. 
DT:	Where the Wisconsin Center is? 
GC:	Yes.
DT:	Well yes, no that's no longer there. There is another building where it is. That's off of University Avenue.
GC:	Oh I see. It probably doesn't function at all like the old Y did. It was well in some ways I suppose for the men somewhat of a Union Center but and of course some students lived there too.
DT:	Oh did they?
GC:	It was several stories high. I don't know, four or five, something of that sort, so it was right along there by the armory I think or very near.
DT:	Yes, I think it was either where the Wisconsin Center building is, probably that one. The alumni building is behind that on the lakeshore.
GC:	The fraternities did quite a lot in housing and, of course, there was a very definite swing away from them. That's changing somewhat I understand too. I mean there's more interest in—

00:46:01

DT:		After World War II I think there was a big shift away from sororities and fraternities.

GC:	Yes and then also the administration trying to dictate the policies and many went off the campus because of that.

DT:	As a sorority member how do you feel about that?

GC:	Well I think it's those groups to bond are personal and more or less take the place of family and I still think people have a right to choose their own friends and I think I believe the institution should be open to everybody. There ain't any question about that. But I think that groups of that sort have been very helpful to many people. Not all needed nor all wanted, but I think that's a matter of individual choice just like church is or anything else. And there's certainly groups for all groups here, too. I mean Jewish people, colored. Also I don't think that they have to be mixed 100% but that's my personal feeling but other people may feel differently about it. I don't think the institutions are taking any hand in that anymore, are they?

DT:	It certainly isn't a big issue today.
GC:	No, certainly there's always a rise and fall in that sort of thing definitely. They think they're going to solve all the problems in the world, and it just can't all be done of course.   Talked to a man that was over in Iran and their drive to change, jump over centuries, the problems they face.   Many things take time and people are a little impatient about that.   They want to change it tomorrow and have it all

DT:	Well it's sometimes hard to wait I guess.
GC:	We need the spirit and youth to make progress. There isn't any question about that and I think you have to experiment some to prove that what is best. Maybe some of the experiments aren't enduring and you find what it the more important.
00:48:44
DT:	You mentioned teaching at Central High School.   Did you have any connection at all with Wisconsin High School, Wisconsin High?
GC:	No I did not. She did....uh, Miss...
DT:	Ruth Henderson. Yes, I know she did and that's why I wondered if—
GC:		We didn't even for our student teaching. We took we taught each other. 

DT:		What do you mean?
GC:	Well we'd pretend to be a student. Miss Marlett was even a member—a high school student and she was our teacher but she could do the most awful things. We hadn't told her right you know and given right instructions, well she would do all the wrong things so that we'd realize what we hadn't done.

DT:	Well that's a good way to learn I guess.

GC:	So it sort of different than we have now anyhow. I think the real situations are much better but of course teacher training has been greatly improved I think. And the experience in all fields are becoming an important part professionally.
DT:	Did you take education courses? Were these required at that time?
GC:	Yes I had taken some normal courses in Yankton because, of course, that was unusual for freshman but at that time that was possible and then I took some education courses because I had got teaching certificates and I forget what the requirements were but I met whatever they were at that time. And then I took the civil service exam for the state supervision and I stood first because I couldn't have it because I was too young.
DT:	Is that here, in Wisconsin?
GC:	Yes.
DT:		My goodness.
GC:		But I didn’t, so it worked out alright.
00:51:00
DT:		I gather you did your advanced degree work at Columbia.
GC:	Yes.
DT:		Now Wisconsin didn't have a PhD. degree program
GC:	Oh no.
DT:		—at that time. Is that correct?
GC:		And I don't know just when they did start. I read it recently too but I forget.
DT:			Well Henderson went to Columbia too, did she not?
GC:	Who?
DT:	Ruth Henderson.
GC:	I'm not sure.
DT:	That seems to be my memory
GC:	Well this is a very....University of Chicago and Columbia were places that we most people of my time went for their doctors degrees.
DT:	These were the centers?
GC:	Yes and of course the others came along a little later.
00:51:49
DT:	What took you to Montana?   That's a long way from Columbia?

GC:	Well my supervising teacher here in Central High School had gone to Montana—Lucille Reynolds who died just recently here at Attic Angels. And she was out in Montana and was going back to Minnesota to study so she recommended me when I finished my masters to go out there and so that's... Appealed to me and I've always been interested, was interested in the West so it ... You have lots of opportunities in new places of that sort to take leadership and I helped organize the home economics, the AAUW, and the Dietetics Association, sorts of things that the time was ripe to start there you see. And so I think sometimes in smaller places you have opportunities that you wouldn't have in bigger places, if you’re interested, and I was always interested in buildings and we were able to build a dormitory's role under our supervision out there and we built new dormitories. We had one, was a unique place and they—what’s it called, a quadrangle. They were offering money and the WPA for schools to build things and urging them to do it. Well they furnish us 60% or something. The state had to furnish the rest and there wasn't money for matching needed school buildings but so dormitories and they had sororities there and so they felt if they built women dormitories they didn't need men because men were in the service you see, so we had what was called a quadrangle—six units that were suitable for sorority use and they could lease them or they could use the independent dormitories so that was an interesting thing and I was on the board for planning our union building out there and also the one at Ohio State so I've had... Ohio State now has a second union building.   The campus is spread so they seem to think they need it. I suppose the same might be true here.
DT:	Well we have what's called Union South. 
GC:	Do you?
DT:	Which is on the other side of University Avenue.
GC:	Is that under separate management—or is it tied in with?
DT:		Oh, it's all considered the Union. It's on a different section of the campus.
GC:	It does have food service I presume. 
DT:	Oh yes. 
GC:	Lounges.
DT:	Activity center. Now who was president when you were here? Was it Van Hise?
00:54:59
GC:	Yes. I think he retired relatively soon after that and then Dr. Birge I think was the next one.
DT:	Well Birge was even acting president part of the time when Van Hise was.

GC:	Yes he was very much of a scientist too. Dr. Birge was a very able man and... Of course I knew President Fred through my sister and brother-in-law when he was a regent. Neither one very well I guess, Mr and Mrs. Fred.

DT:		Well I guess not. Dr. Fred is having some problems with his eyes and his hearing.

GC:		So do I but I wear these and they work pretty good.

DT:		Well I don't know whether he's satisfied with his or not.
GC:		Takes about a year to get used to them at least.
DT:		He's still very energetic and goes to his Van Hise office every day.
GC:		Is he still working on the history or has he or has that been...?
DT:	Well he's been involved in the history of the College of Agriculture. He's not writing it himself but he is encouraging members of the College who have been here a long time to work on it. I don't know just stage it’s reached. And he's done up a study of war...
GC:	Oh yes.
DT:		Which he finished just recently.
GC:		Dr. Elvejhem's was short—too short.
DT:		That was too bad.
GC:		Yes it was and I hoped to see that Art Center tomorrow.
DT:		The Elvejhem Art Center.
GC:	Yes, I’ve heard so much about it and I just hadn't had the opportunity
DT:		I think you would enjoy it. Of course that was a great thing that Dr. Fred worked for a long time to get on the campus.
GC:	Well I just don't believe I've got any more for you.
00:57:17
DT:	I really wanted to ask you how you felt as a professional woman at a time when the professions were more or less a man's world.   Did you feel that, I mean home economics clearly was a woman's area, but did you feel that in terms of pay, recognition...

GC:	That was and still is one of the advantages of home economics because it is still primarily a woman's field and certainly the women can go to the top.  Pay-wise, I think there's definitely been discrimination and would be true in almost any field. And I think it definitely is improving. I certainly was pay [unintelligible] down at Ohio State and it certainly made a tremendous impression on me compared to what we'd had. I think my top salary was $10,000 for home economics and so of course they, public school teachers started out almost at that now in some places. But of course living and everything else is so much more expensive so it's very difficult to make a fair comparison. But women, many women just don't want to go on indefinitely in their professions but I think it ought to be a matter of choice. I think the ones that want to I think should have the opportunity and I don't think that we should draw, look down on women that want to be homemakers 100% either because I think that can be a challenging, worthwhile life too.
DT:	What do you think about this current trend of women trying to do both? More and more women seem to be combining homemaking with their profession.
GC:	Well I think it can be done. Certainly with our smaller families and with our greater facilities for simplifying homemaking problems and men assuming more responsibility too in helping. I think that goes along with it. But certainly we're all living longer and I think that our life cycles takes different stages and what seems to be all encompassing and all satisfying at one time isn’t a little later. So I think women should get the basic education before they are married so that they
1:00:25
End of Interview