UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #273
BOLLINGER, JOHN G.

BOLLINGER, John G. (1935- )
Undergraduate and Graduate Student; Professor of Mechanical Engineering; Dean of College of Engineering
At UW: 1953-1957; 1958-

First Interview
with RATNER, Robert A. (1921-1989)
Professor of Industrial Engineering; Associate Dean of College of Engineering
At UW: 1954-1986

Interviewed: 1983	
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length: 1 hour	

College of Engineering and Wisconsin industry; Role of Extension Engineering; Origins of University-Industry Research Program; Choice of W. Robert Marshall as dean; Loss of Engineering's role in licensing and consequences; Changes in College faculty; Division between basic science courses and Engineering courses and consequences for Engineering.

Second Interview
Interviewed: 1988	
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length: 2 hours	

Appointment as dean; Irving Shain's support of College of Engineering; Reducing enrollment; College's image problem in the state; Effect of Merger; Robert O'Neil; Lack of state coordination of technology; Other engineering schools; Consequences of separating Milwaukee and Madison engineering programs; Funding new building; Effect of System policies; Some campus problems; Issue of open records; System's new approach to budget planning and accounting; College and Madison Plan.

FIRST INTERVIEW (1983)
WITH ROBERT A. RATNER

Tape 1
00:00:04	Discussion of the reasons for the lack of interaction between Wisconsin industry and the Engineering College historically, the role of Extension Engineering, and of the beginning of an engineering program on the Milwaukee campus.
 
00:07:37	The growing interest in the college by industry due to industry's need for help and advice in developing high technology.

00:10:19	The origins of the University-Industry Research program.  Gerard Rohlich's role.  Robert Alberty, Daniel Meade.

00:15:14	Rohlich and Marshall candidates for deanship.  Reasons for choice of Marshall.  Marshall's Industrial Liaison Council.

00:23:42	Under Governor Lucey or earlier, Engineering College dean ceased be chairman of State Licensing Board for Engineers.  Reasons for change and consequences for College--loss of visibility, for example.

00:26:49	Attitude to Engineering College on campus and at state level.  Perception of College as dealing in applied science, ways in which term "engineering" has been used in past; ways used now and resulting better image; only in 1960s did majority of faculty have Ph.D.s.  New developments: IBM grant; integration of Extension Engineering with College; widespread change in college teaching likely due new technical development.

00:44:21	Environment of opportunity at UW.

00:47:00	Kurt Wendt as dean and chairman of Campus Planning Committee.

00:50:19	Relative income and spending of Engineering, social sciences, humanities.  Consequence for Engineering of divisions between basic science courses and Engineering courses.

00:53:30 	Break in tape. [Beginning portion of separate interview?] Question about desire to become an engineer. 

01:02:54	End of Tape 

SECOND INTERVIEW (March 1, 1988)
Tape 2

00:00:04 	Irv Shain’s chancellorship and Bollinger’s interview from England. The year in England; contemplating not going on at UW.  College on plateau, little change although more research oriented.  Discusses.  Had some offers.

00:06:09	Marshall announced retirement but didn't want to retire.  Shain wanted him to retire.  They didn't click.  Faculty dissatisfied, going directly to chancellor.  (JB makes sure that doesn't happen very often.)

00:08:15	JB had spent a month or so in England thinking about what he would do as dean when learned was a candidate.  (Came back every six weeks for graduate students and industry consultations.)  Had plan of action ready.  Shain liked it.  Offered him job.

00:09:59	Shain agreed would give College more support than had.  Agreed to focus on microelectronics, work to get new building.  As JB made good on plans, Shain increased support.  By 1985-86 College in good shape.  Space still big problem.  Curtailed enrollment to manageable size.  Learned to manage the place.  Engineering four years ahead of campus enrollment program.

00:13:14	Cuts. JB took positions into college budget and distributed as needed.  Thought faculty would rebel.  JB musters opinion to get support.  JB felt good; Shain felt good.

00:15:54	Both he and Shain aware of Engineering as economic asset.  Campus had image problem.  JB had reputation internationally.  Had ties with only two firms in Wisconsin knew.  Marshall too, famous abroad; not known in Wisconsin.

00:17:42	Merger politicized management of UW System, regents talking about "my campus".  JB saw had to have constituency across the state to be effective.

00:18:58	Q. re O'Neil.  JB talked a lot with him.  Not willing take bold moves, didn't understand technology, couldn't cope with Madison campus.  Could have done things to support technology.

00:19:34	No state coordination of technology.  Used to be Council on Engineering Education, that advised about development of engineering.  Platteville engineering program developed in contradiction to their report.  Political thing.  Platteville needed enrollment, engineering popular, a way to save campus, but means Wisconsin has two private engineering programs in Milwaukee, a third state program in Milwaukee, one in Madison, now one in Platteville--all in a straight line.  Not in direction of technology in state, geographically.  No industry in SW Wisconsin.  More sense in Green Bay.

00:22.15	Separating of Milwaukee program from Madison a mistake, have two competing systems.  Compounded when integrating Extension.  Now two competing Extension programs.  JB took responsibility for 30 or 40 people.  Now they want build competitive program with us, and they're doing it.  Doesn't make any sense.  A very competitive marketplace nationally, that Madison successful in, but Madison needs clientele to generate revenue.  

00:23:43	O'Neil always friendly, but nothing was carried through.  JB hoping to get some kind of coordination of technical education in Wisconsin.  

00:24:10	Has talked to Shaw at length about it.  He got caught in a trap which Bollinger helped set.  The desperate need for space.  Biggest space deficit of any program in System.  In Campus Planning Committee got Business and Engineering at top of list a year ago.  Shain supported that.  JB originally asked for two buildings three biennia ago.  Couldn't do it all in one.  Need ground floor space.  Strategic mistake, though no choice.  Separated into two projects.  Kept compromising.  Got remodelling and additions.  

00:26:23	Shain gave it one and two priority, engineering and business at System level--JB had been talking to Shaw about importance of economic development.  Offered to raise $1.5 million to help fund.  Wants auditorium, nice entry.  Looks bad for parents to sit in WWII temporary building to talk to freshman dean.  Needs image of 'this is good place to do business'. 

00:28:03	Business said would raise $4 million (mimicking JB’s offer to raise money).  System put them 17th and 18th.  Gymnasiums, residence halls ahead.  Thompson just in office.  Anxious wanted change image of state relationship with business and industry.  Bollinger and Hickman went to Thompson, stated their case.  System spending money all over state but doing nothing to build image with business and industry.

00:30:00	Agreed didn't look right.  Went to Shaw with some business.  Got Thompson to accept, and Shaw agreed.  First time leveraging used.  May be a bad precedent.  JFC retaliated.  Made engineering raise $2 million, business, $8 million.  JB's trouble getting donor.  Finally got Granger Foundation.

00:33:13	Went around regents.  Didn't want interference with Memorial Library addition.  JB's first in-depth experience with state politics.  Shaw said, in a later meeting, "Don't expect get next building at next biennium."  He wasn't happy.  JB tried convince him was politically wise, timely.  Not convinced.

00:35:38	Other major controversy.  Milwaukee business community, Greater Milwaukee Committee, vocal.  Wants Madison be Engineering center, Milwaukee, business center.  Tried kill business building.  UW-Milwaukee hadn't put any request in so went away [clouded crystal ball].

00:37:58	Lack of technological focus in state, examples.  Engineering in Madison only focus.  Marquette is local.  Business and industry support it.  Difficult get support there, place students.  Better now, have some graduates there.

00:41:09	More on Shain.  JB thinks was very frustrated.  Clearly headed for confrontation with System.  Growing level of bureaucracy.  Hired more people, needed things for them to do.  Trying get handle on what's going on in Madison campus.  DOA too.  Tail wagging dog.  Engineering gets more outside funding than whole System, and Engineering only 12% of Madison campus.  

00:43:41	Bothered Shain, bothering Shalala.  Goes to meeting with System and comes back sounding like Shain.  Leveling process is tearing Madison down.  How to solve it.  Can hunker down, or can win over by embracing.  

00:45:50	System's attitude reinforced by things needing improving on Madison campus--registration.  Madison procrastinated.  Business badly run, but difficult to change.  Shain not interested.  Inefficiency, duplication.  Thinks Shalala will try to make changes.  Has never been an organization chart for campus.  Have to move slowly.

00:50:17	So UW has bad image.  Legislators perceive us as wasteful.  Perceptions are reality.  Q: did deans suggest changes?  Open records issue.  Deans urged should be open.  Shain said No.  Generated law suit, legislative pressure, new forms.  Have to be open, a public institution.  JB consults (Wendt's reaction to this); number of hours JB puts in deaning. 

00:56:05	If more management-oriented even before Shain, would be better off.

00:56:58	Budget planning process not good.  No planning.  Used to be.  Put forward plan for campus.  Now System puts in its priorities, says, What are you doing on these: will lose sight of what's going on on campuses.

00:58:22	End of Tape 

Tape 3

00:00:03	An engineer's view of a "system".  System's view is, all parts are the same.  Can't work.  Donna Shalala saying same things as Bollinger.  Will be harder and harder for deans to meet mission of research, teaching, service because of leveling process.  Q. re Weinstein.  Won't say on tape.  Regents trying micromanage.  Should stick to policy.  Legislature too.  Lack of leadership.  Example: requirements for giving new positions include having to prove new sections opened.  Can't do that in engineering.  To get good people have to give research time.  Engineering has tried new approaches to have bigger classes, fewer sections.  More effective.  But deans can get around requirements by manipulating--another indication of legislative bad management.

00:8:05	The list of under enrolled Ph.D. programs.  Should never have been published.  Effect on chairmen, newly recruited faculty.  Insensitivity to what research university is about.  Cohen working on it.  Can't undo.  Looks like a potshot.  Shalala livid.  If manage well, do good job can avoid most criticism.

00:13:09	Shain overworked himself; didn't delegate.

(May 25, 1988)

00:13:53	Lot of activity since last met.  Approval of three new buildings.  Not expected raise money so quickly.  Almost postponed building.  Major grant to be announced.

00:17:29	Madison Plan.   Long term commitment undergraduate minority training.  Instructional money for minorities taken out of regular budget so not accessible.  Resulting loss of flexibility.  And money taken out of instructional budget to support minority plan--$360,000.  No negotiation, no faculty governance, money disappeared (Shalala).  JB wrote her.

00:22:02	Faculty revolt against ethnic course requirement.  Curriculum belongs faculty.   Chancellor's office wrote, when is engineering going pass this.  Faculty wants know impact, how to be done.  So college not adopting.
  
00:24:11	Faculty opposing multicultural center.  Discrimination in reverse.  Concerned because hits budget.  JB has to take out of department budgets.

00:25:39	JB thinks some of problems will go away.  First black person being hired.  Her history; her husband being hired.

00:28:06	Resentment among faculty re forced hiring senior minority faculty.  Particularly serious in engineering.  Hard hire people.  Money taken from budget to bring minority.

00:29:08	Money sits there if can't find someone.  The argument about enticing faculty from small black colleges.  Bring some in in summer.  Faculty view of budgets: if money from someplace else, ok; if coming from own budget, affecting own research, teaching, then balk.  Will approve ethnic course if decide will fit well.

00:33:10	Engineering has given fellowships, recruited minorities for years.  Links with black colleges.

00:34:08	Getting more women faculty.

00:35:23	Engineering lucky get one minority of 70 required.  No candidates.  Hiring academic staff minorities.  JB trying reduce academic staff. 

00:36:47	Hasn't been very vocal.  Multidisciplinary course not available until 1989.  Takes time, resources.  L&S won't put own resources into this.  Need for own purposes.  Will ask for new resources.  That will come out of other colleges' budgets.

00:38:00	Q. how deans handle problem of meeting campuswide quota.

00:38:46	Minority retention.  Engineering had to cut enrollment.  Hurt recruiting and retention.  Important maintain standards.

00:40:05	Bollinger is going through Madison Plan list.  Skeptical.

00:41:13	Q. re recruiting top faculty.  Shortage nationwide.  Bollinger controls positions so departments have to compete for best people.  Weak departments get weaker.

00:43:23	Get new positions only when put in DINs on new ideas--ceramics, biotechnology etc.; or when legislature says want more teachers in classrooms.  Bollinger lost as many positions as got, in last biennium--ground zero.  Get new ones, but old ones taken out.  Not much competition between academic and industry.  People who like one don't like other.  Starting salaries $42,000 plus start up package, $50 to 100 thousand.  Contrast $25,000 rest of campus.  Platteville and Milwaukee can't hire that kind of people.  Haves and Have nots in engineering.  Self-defeating to use government money to level it out.  

00:50:04	Thinks Shalala breath fresh air.  Hope doesn't get self in trouble with faculty.  Deans trapped in middle.

00:50:35	JB pushes on faculty governance.  Has provided leadership last five years.  Finds less and less output from committee structures.  The more leadership by dean, chairmen, the less faculty bother.  Concerns him.  No raucous debate in faculty meetings for ten years.  Thinks because attitude of "dean will take care of it".  Gave Madison Plan to committee in March.  L&S had adopted policy.  Talked at last faculty meeting: statement was, need study more.  Discussed in academic planning council:  deferred.  Bollinger sent out adaptation of L&S policy for May meeting.  Had people lined up to make motion.  Got deferred.  Bollinger wanted have it settled.  Faculty protests. 

00:57:49	End of Tape 

END