UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #101
SEWELL, WILLIAM H.

SEWELL, William H. (1909- )
Professor of Sociology; Chancellor
At UW: 1946-1980

First Interview
Interviewed: 1977		
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length: 9 hours
Transcript: 473 pages1

Robben Fleming's chancellorship; Board of Regents and handling of protest movement; Regents' other concerns; Fred Harvey Harrington's position, 1967-68; Background to October 1967 Dow Protests; Student leaders; Faculty reactions to Dow Protests; Discussions with campus and city police; People involved in handling of Protests; Other problems during chancellorship; Law and pharmacy deanships; Crisis following Martin Luther King's assassination; Decision to establish Afro-American Studies Department; UW and state government; Influential friends of UW; WARF; Town and Gown Club; Teaching; TA system and Sociology TAs; Attitude towards TA Strike; Background; Funding for social sciences; Harrington and Edwin Young; Merger; Loss of top scholars and effects on University.

Second Interview
Interviewed: 1983		
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length: 2 hours
Transcript: 473 pages1

History of Sociology Department; Rural sociology; Weakness of Department by late 1930s; Outside funding for research; Division of anthropology and sociology into separate departments; Talent searches; Center for Demography; Attempt to gain more grant money for social sciences; Opposition of presidents Conrad Elvehjem and E. B. Fred; Department's high national rating; Likely effects of recent budget reductions; Pressure to publish in Department.

Third Interview
Interviewed: 1985		
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length: 3 hours
Transcript: 473 pages1

College education and early interest in medicine and sociology; Graduate work at University of Minnesota under Stewart Chapin; Teaching and research at University of Oklahoma; Statistical and sociological work for Navy during WWII; Recruitment by E. B. Fred; Post-war research on child and adolescent socialization and revision of post-Freudian psychoanalysis; Research on social stratification; Wisconsin High School student data and Wisconsin Longitudinal Study; Collaboration with and impressions of Otis Dudley Duncan, Robert Hauser and Sewall Wright; Writing; Involvement in national organizations; Current research.

Fourth Interview
Interviewed: 1988	
Interviewer: Mark Solovay
Length: 3 hours

Background and research.

[Note: All Tapes, excepting Tape 12, have been transcribed. No audio exists for Tape 13, Side 2. Tape 16 does not exist in any format whatsoever.]

1976 Interview
First session
Tape 1 / Side 1

00:00:00	July 7, 1968 editorial on William Sewell (WS).

00:01:17	Robben Fleming's leaving.  Interested in presidencies of universities of Minnesota or Michigan.  Ambitious man.  Fred Harvey  Harrington's style cramped his.  Problems of president-chancellor power structure; yet to be worked out.  How Harrington saw his role.  He moved to Van Hise to get away from student problems.

00:07:31	University of Wisconsin (UW) has more autonomy than other state universities.  WS considers it as a private school funded by the state.

00:08:32	Harrington tried to distance himself from campus problems.  Didn't want to get involved.  Regents criticized Fleming's "coddling" of students.

00:10:16	How Governor Warren Knowles' long term allowed the Board of Regents to shift from liberal to conservative.  Knowles became upset with the UW when the public became upset.  He was a good politician.

00:13:12	Edward DeBardeleben a staunch defender of the UW, yet wanted students treated fairly.

00:15:19	Regents not really concerned with academics.  They fretted most over student unrest.  Harrington's lecturing of the regents.

00:20:18	Regents' attitude toward Harrington changed over the years, from being impressed to resentful.  Harrington's attitude backfired.  WS felt Harrington's resignation only a matter of time.

00:25:18	WS and Harrington had their differences, but only over student problems.  The Dow incident and faculty reaction.  WS thought he'd be asked to resign at first.  There was a deep faculty split, and WS felt he had to patch it.

00:32:51	When the students turned against the faculty after turning against the administration, the faculty was greatly shaken.

00:34:43	Faculty at first called for continued interviews on campus even after Dow, then wavered.

00:35:32	WS voted against campus interviews.  He felt companies could rent rooms just as easily off campus as on.  It would save the companies and the UW a lot of grief.

00:39:22	WS's comments on Fleming's handling of Dow.

00:40:09	WS knew some of the Dow protestors very well, particularly organizer Evan Stark.  Talked with Stark days before Dow.  Stark promised a peaceful protest and asked WS to keep the police off campus.  Police not under WS's control.  When the fracas broke in the Commerce Building, Stark was nowhere to be found.  Later ended up in legal trouble.

00:46:28	End of side

Tape 1 / Side 2

00:46:30	Stark took one of WS's seminars.  Really involved with being a radical.

00:49:09	Stark was like the other radical students--elitist, but caring.

00:49:43	WS's generation, which graduated from college during the Depression, had many socialists and communists who deeply debated Marxist/Leninist tenets.  For the '60s generation the unifying force was the Vietnam War.

00:51:47	Dow protest expected to be only symbolic.  Resistance was unexpected.  UW prepared for mass arrests, but not violence.

00:53:39	Bob Cohen and other protest leaders.  Cohen an orator.  Story of his having to go before the regents' board; thrown out of school as a result.  He demanded a hearing before the full board of regents.  He condemned the full board just as he did the smaller board.

00:58:21	WS felt that UW couldn't abandon usual procedures just because times were hard.  Cohen fired because he neglected his teaching duties.

01:01:10	Cohen more known around the state than Stark.  WS's discussion with Harrington over Cohen's firing.  Harrington's reasoning.  Concern over faculty support.  Faculty input and concern for due process.  Feelings of engineering faculty.

01:06:56	Faculty feelings on student dismissals and freedom of expression. Cohen went to SUNY-Buffalo.  WS attended a conference on student revolt in Boston.  Assigned to a room with the SUNY-Buffalo chancellor.  His feelings on Cohen.

01:12:04	Hank Haslach more concerned with TAA than with protests. Bob Zwicker.  Hated and feared by Ralph Hanson.  Zwicker disrupted Cohen's trial.

01:16:04	Paul Soglin considered a minor figure by WS--a talker, not a doer.  Claim to fame was University Forum after Dow.  WS was booed when he entered the Union Theater (Forum site).  Answered general questions from radical students for about an hour.

01:18:49	Joe Kauffman's restraining order aroused student ire.  Soglin a spokesman at meeting concerning the order.  WS feels Soglin a mere opportunist, like Stark.  After Stark and Cohen left, the student movement weakened.  Soglin an ineffective leader.

01:22:31	Story of WS's meeting with would-be radicals and their failed plans.

01:25:00	Soglin had a small role in the protest movement, though he was a good politician.

01:26:29	More on Kauffman.  How he got his job.  WS talked with Fleming and Harrington.  Both recommended Kauffman to be Vice President of Student of Affairs.  WS talked with others about Kauffman, too.

01:30:54	Kauffman issued edicts without WS's knowledge.  Harrington may have put some pressure on Kauffman.

01:31:36	End of tape

1976 interview
First session continued
Tape 2 / Side 1

00:00:00	WS's wisecrack to a reporter.  Problems turned over to Kauffman.  When Dow came, law enforcement turned over to Madison police.  Meetings with Chief Emery.  Agreements.  Ralph Hanson trusted Emery.  Fears that police were under too much stress.

00:05:49	WS meeting with WSA president Mike Fullwood.  Then met with Stark and others.  Students' demands a bit outlandish.

00:08:44	What WS saw as the police moved in.  Kauffman's reaction.  Police firing tear gas canisters at students--and accidentally at some faculty.  Hanson felt the building had to be cleared.  UW had no legal control over Madison police.

00:13:52	WS felt powerless about the situation.  Never learned how to deal with such a situation.  WS feels nobody really did.  Governor offered to send in the National Guard.

00:16:32	More of Kauffman's reaction.  He said the chancellor should take all responsibility.  Afterwards WS didn't rely on Kauffman.  Later protests handled much better.  Herman Goldstein's help.  Kauffman given other responsibilities.

00:22:31	Discussions about changing interview sites between Kauffman and WS.  Faculty reaction.  Some people were upset that any police were at Dow in the first place.  Liberal faculty more outspoken than conservatives.

00:27:04	Awful days for WS.  Wanted to quit.  Second-guessed himself.  Felt the riots were inevitable, but felt he mishandled the situation.  By the end of the year he felt he and others had repaired the UW enough for him to quit.  His wife's advice and contributions.  She was relieved when WS resigned.

00:31:45  	End of side / End of first session

1976 interview
Second session 
Tape 2 / Side 2

00:00:00	More on Governor Knowles' offer.  WS refused to ask for the National Guard.  Governor Knowles' perspective.

00:02:38	Meeting with the Guard.

00:07:02	Irving Shain.  Not trusted by faculty.  WS considers him a nuisance and a gadfly.

00:12:51	WS could have left after his resignation, but stayed here.  Has mostly steered clear of faculty matters.

00:15:50	Speech WS made to faculty regarding Senator William Proxmire.  Reaction.  Background on Proxmire.  WS considers Proxmire a publicity-seeker.  WS's one-sentence summation of Proxmire to the New York Times.

00:25:52	After Dow, WS felt he didn't have a good staff.  Personnel advice of Fleming, WS's predecessor.  How the people WS kept on worked out for him.

00:34:49	Burt Fisher.  Involved with handling of post-Dow student problems.  Worked with WS.

00:38:56	Serious student problems solved by a faculty board with no student input.  Effectiveness of disciplining procedures.  WS and Fisher felt the need for reform.  Set up a committee to look into it.

00:41:36	The Kearl and Mermin committees.  What they dealt with.

00:43:54	Chancellor's office overwhelmed with work.  Need for vice-chancellor.  Bryant Kearl approved; the reasons he declined.  How WS talked him into it.  Best choice WS ever made.

00:46:54	End of tape 2 / side 2 

1976 interview
Second session continued
Tape 3 / Side 1

00:00:00	Kearl's appointment didn't go through search-and-screen committee, which was fine with WS.  WS wanted Kearl as vice-chancellor, so he just appointed him.

00:07:07	Cleary was a bit miffed after WS announced Kearl's hiring.  

00:08:10	Fisher's actions after the Kearl hiring.

00:10:04	Kearl very helpful.  Prevented black students' strike from becoming a major problem.  Harrington tried to stay uninvolved with student problems, but the regents blamed him for them.

00:12:57	Ted Zellmans' criticism that administration got too involved with students.  But times have changed since his day.

00:15:27 	The Kearl and Mermin committees had respect of faculty.  Kearl's appointment was well-accepted.

00:16:32	WS felt the faculty didn't keep up adequate student contact.  He was warned, but still disappointed.

00:20:26	End of side

Tape 3 / Side 2

00:20:32	Faculty feel they have to be close to students.  Traditionally, faculty support goes to students, but two thirds of the faculty supported the administration in the late '60s.  Around the country, there was a great administrative turnover--here, Columbia, Berkeley, Harvard, Kent State to name a few.

00:26:35	WS voted the smallest pay increase of any administrator in the state by the regents.  Didn't affect his resignation.

00:27:56	Mr. Call, Wisconsin Secretary of Education.  His opinion of the chancellor's job.  WS would frustrate the regents.  Felt he would be fired, thought it would be fun.

00:32:02	Harrington brought back Ed Young to fill WS's job when he resigned.  More on Young.

00:36:09	Bringing in Weaver as UW president.  Advantages.  Yet more on Young.  Not a very energetic man.  Doesn't want the pressure of a top administrative post.  Not a decisive man.

00:38:45	Kearl needs variety in his career.

00:44:59	End of tape 

Tape 4 / Side 1

00:00:00	Other crises.  WS worried most over Second Dow, but the UW was much more prepared.  Interviews held at the Fieldhouse, with the program over in an hour.  Security and reserves.  Second Dow held the day before the Wisconsin presidential primary.  This kept Eugene McCarthy supporters away.

00:05:46	WS still not in favor of Dow interview.  Regents meeting before Second Dow.  CIA canceled their campus appearance.  WS felt if the CIA came, they'd have to go off campus.

00:10:00	WS suggested that Dow go off campus too.  Regents and faculty wanted them on campus.  WS could have forced Dow off campus but didn't.  Students also wanted interviews on campus by a 3 to 1 margin in a referendum.  

00:12:44	Interviewing went on.  None were disrupted.

00:13:49	Dow's attitude toward campus interviewing a moral one.  There was also a question of constitutional rights.

00:16:45	Building take-over another crisis.  SDS, Weathermen were quite committed here.  Hanson insisted on a 24-hour guard of WS's house.  WS would be hissed when he walked through the Union, but he was never seriously threatened.

00:19:50	Individuals that threatened disruption.  None were very effective, especially after Stark left.  Just middle-class kids.

00:24:00	Student protestors sometimes went underground when their goals were not achieved.  Vandalism was easy to carry out, and it cost the UW $400,000 to repair, but it really served no purpose.  WS would have taken strong measures against the vandals, if he knew who they were.  Fires around campus; arsonists never caught.

00:28:10	The Cardinal accused Kauffman of using Hanson to install plainclothes police to infiltrate student organizations.  WS didn't know.  Nor does he know what the Dean of Students did.  WS's uses of the Cardinal.  William Rice's unimportant solution to the Dow problem.

00:32:21	WS had no control over how the University Committee was selected.  Some of its members.

00:36:21	University Committee was very conservative.  Would tell WS and Fleming what to do.  The committee was a policy-making body with a history of trying to influence administration.

00:39:56	WS felt a conservative University committee head helped matters.  He feels the faculty is also essentially conservative.  WS believes everyone on this campus has a right to speak, unlike many of the radical students.

00:43:13	WS considered the University Committee supportive and a group that made moves that had to be made.  WS admired their hard work and sacrifice.

00:45:37	Other troubles besides Dow.  1968 presidential campaign.

00:46:26	End of side

Tape 4 / Side 2

00:46:29	Lyndon Johnson's Secretary of Agriculture wanted to make a major policy announcement at the Memorial Union.  WS said no large, interested audience could be guaranteed.  So the speech was moved to the Ag campus.  Secretary Freeman was jeered and left the stage.  The Johnson Administration complained about the state of affairs in this country.  WS sent a letter of apology to the White House.  He felt bad for Freeman's free-speech rights.  No problem with security; McCarthy backers caused the disruptions.

00:54:52	Other troubles mostly academic.  Some were trivial, like the proposed Hoofers dock.

00:57:26	Fleming's changes at the Law School; called for by influential law faculty and Harrington.  How WS handled the George Young resignation.

01:03:42	WS called a meeting of the law faculty.  Faculty views of the Young situation.  WS felt Young should resign.  Only three faculty members disagreed; Young stepped down.  A search committee chose Spencer Kimball as the new dean.  Pro-Young protests.  Work of Judge Heffernan.  Kimball was hired.

01:13:16	Kimball stayed only three years because Edwin Young didn't follow through on WS's monetary promises.  Kimball improved the Law School during his term, though it has since slipped a bit.

01:18:55	Pharmacy has also fallen from its former heights.  Stagnation under Dean Uhl.  Flap over appointing his successor, David Perlman.  Regents' special meeting to resolve situation.  Pharmacists enraged a non-pharmacist got the job.

01:31:37	Worry over pharmacists' attitude toward UW.  Pharmacists angry at regents, regents mad at UW.  WS felt the pharmacists' favorite son was simply not qualified. 

01:35:49	End of tape 

Tape 5 / Side 1

00:00:00	The removal of Porter Butts.  Importance of the Memorial Union.  Butts' work was important, but he was 65 and didn't understand the changing times.  Students and his staff were disenchanted.  WS felt it was time for a change, especially when Butts opposed the construction of Union South.

00:05:32	A search-and-screen committee found three candidates.

00:06:13	Ted Crabb selected.  Word got out and some students protested.  Regents' meeting after Crabb selection.  Results.  Student fallout.  Work of Dean of Students.

00:18:24	Problems Fleming faced when he got here as chancellor.  Relationships with other officials.

00:22:58	Who told Butts he was to resign.  A difficult situation.  Harrington wanted Butts out.  What to do with Butts and others like him.  Leroy Luberg situation.

00:30:51	What deans Harrington thought were important.  WS felt no pressure from Harrington.

00:33:50	Crisis with black students.  UW's plan for attracting more minority students.  Committee report and members.  Accepting borderline black applicants.

00:38:40	UW had to actively pursue black students.  By the spring of 1968, nearly 800 black students were enrolled.  They were well-organized.  The UW didn't accept their demands.

00:42:22	Several meetings held with black students.

00:43:11	Martin Luther King's assassination touched off black student unrest.  WS's reaction.  Talked with Leon Epstein and decided to call a day of mourning.

00:45:50	Meetings held the next morning.  A trying meeting at first.

00:46:25	End of side

Tape 5 / Side 2 blank	 

Tape 6 / Side 1

00:00:00	More on activities after the King assassination.  Blacks dissatisfied so WS turned program over to them.  They were surprised but still wary.  WS then gave them the center of campus for the meetings.  WS started off the program with a short speech then let the black students run it.  A march down State Street drew 10,000 people.  Campus meetings very educational.  Attempts by white radicals to get black radicals into their movement.  On the whole, meetings were a good experience.

00:11:37	Reactions of Harrington and the regents.  They grumbled; regents' resolution.  Everything went well, however.

00:14:07	Housing problems with black students flared up as WS visited junior year abroad locations.  Their demands.

00:17:26 – 00:17:56 Blank

00:17:56	What Kearl and the black students agreed to.

00:19:19	Reactions.  Regents agreed to the proposals.

00:22:49	Black students didn't have a leader in the sense of Stark or Bob Cohen.  There was one impressive leader, however.  How WS got the funds for a program this leader proposed.  It was not easy.  The money problems universities always face.  Money problems at the UW.  State government-university cooperation here and elsewhere.  UW's prestige has greatly helped it.

00:35:03	The UW as a state resource.  UW faculty and the history of academic freedom.  Why Joe McCarthy didn't attack the UW.

00:37:23	Prestige in state dropped during student unrest.  High disapproval of student actions.  Blame fell on Harrington and WS.  Disapproval also high against a bill that would limit out-of-state enrollment.

00:42:03	Money sources for the UW.  Oscar Rennebohm a great help.  Oscar Mayer a loyal financial backer.

00:45:00	Other friends of the UW.  The Frautschis.

00:46:11	End of side

Tape 6 / Side 2

00:46:12	WS found Lowell Frautschi to be an effective and helpful man.  His work regarding the Union.

00:49:28	Butts' view of radical students.  He always tried to make the Union please students; a very professional man.  L. Frautschi a good chairman.

00:53:52	Walter Frautschi a conservative.  Has served the UW well on the WARF Board.  Composition of that board.  Sometimes it's too concerned with technology at the expense of the humanities.  Walter Frautschi helped the board see the value of the humanities.

00:59:05	Walter Frautschi especially helpful during merger.  WS and Ed Young talked with him about merger's effect on funds.  Wealthy contributors often left money solely for Madison.  WARF Board reluctantly sent some money to Milwaukee, but later denied them funds.

01:03:30	Harrington's attempts to get WARF money sent to Milwaukee.

01:04:40	The chancellor as an advisor at WARF Board meetings.  How WARF spends its money.  Differences between chancellor and deans to WARF.  

01:07:30	Fleming's work at WARF Board meetings. Some past greats of the Ag school and the UW; Fred, Slichter, Steenbock, Burgess. Origins of WARF.  WARF's shrewd early investments (Xerox, 3M).

01:15:48	Don Slichter, son of Charles Slichter.  Grew up on Frances Street as sort of an academic brat.  His steps to the top.  Has deep knowledge of the UW and is a staunch defender of it.  UW posts he held.

01:18:32	Other UW figures WS knew. The Town and Gown Club.  12-person organization, mixture of UW and government officials.  What occurred at its meetings.

01:22:07	End of tape

Tape 7 / Side 1

00:00:00	WS discusses Town and Gown Club, its members, how it works, its importance to university.  Fairly conservative group both socially and economically.

00:13:15	TA Strike not discussed at Club when WS was chancellor.  Club members do not try to run university, are more sophisticated.

00:16:26	Different lifestyles of members than those of a university professor, very much Old Madison.

00:18:23	Mentions his Poker Group, notes founding members.

00:24:10	WS has traditionally lunched at University Club.  Interaction with faculty important.  How University Club has changed.  In post-war period many young faculty members ate at club, but were a smaller group then.  More social than today, held dances.  Now members' average age is quite old.

00:28:39	WS is not as social as others in university.

00:34:18	Role of teaching in WS's career.  Writing, scholarship was always most important part of his career.  Initially, he was enthusiastic about undergraduate teaching.  Still enjoys teaching graduate students, especially informally.

00:37:51	Often over prepared for lecture.  Some of his undergraduates have since become famous sociologists.

00:45:46	End of side

00:45:46 – 00:46:39 Blank

Tape 7 / Side 2

00:46:39	Difference between relationships with graduate and undergraduate students.

00:48:36	Opposed to TA Strike or TA organization.  Robben Fleming, Ed Young supported them because of role as labor negotiators.

00:51:42	TAs not used very much in sociology.  As chair of department, he received a lot of funds to hire research assistantships, have graduate training grants.  One year a hundred students were financed by such grants.

00:53:45	Many TAs refused to teach material they were supposed to teach; WS sought to replace TAs with assistant professors.

00:55:58	Break in tape

00:56:20	WS’s background as an undergraduate in pre-medicine. Taking a pharmacy test.

00:58:58	WS came to UW in 1946. Had been research leader of the branch of the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey that studied the effects of bombing on civilian morale in Japan, which found that the Japanese had been ready to surrender before the atomic bomb was dropped. Hiring process at UW – interview with Fred

01:05:58	WS elected chairman of the sociology department. Reinvigorating the department, which had been underdeveloped.

01:12:35	Getting the social sciences more strongly organized internally. Availability of research funds.

01:16:22	Committee on Social Science Research establishment.

01:20:41	Efforts to get funds from the Ford Foundation

01:26:34	End of tape

Tape 8 / Side 1

00:00:00	Deanship duties did not appeal to him.  Resistance to social science by Fred, Baldwin, Elvehjem, in Graduate School.  Getting money to build up social sciences through WARF money.  Vernon Carstensen role.  Fred Harrington.  Internal struggle for presidency between Harrington and Elvehjem.  Elvehjem won, Harrington became vice president.  WARF money became available to humanities and social sciences.  After Harrington became president.

00:06:28	University had to catch up in sociology.  Had sat still in 1950s.  Ranking of graduate programs very high.  Time of Fred's presidency one of expansion throughout country.  But WS thinks Harrington was university's best modern president.

00:13:19	E.B. Fred a complex individual, different to comprehend.  Didn't understand social science priorities very well.  Even Baldwin, Ingraham did not understand.  Young knew what social sciences needed.  Not enough of a voice for the social sciences at the time.  Not the great, clever leader that some people thought he was.  Government provided a lot of money.

00:21:27	Harrington was a very strong president.  Student unrest led to gap between Harrington and Board of Regents.  Regents didn't understand why University students had been radical.  He should have been appointed president of American Council on Education due to his role in lobbying in Washington D.C. for higher education.

00:30:24	Deanship offered to WS, he turned it down then Ed Young took the position.

00:31:10	End of side

Tape 8 / Side 2 blank

Tape 9
December 6, 1977

00:00:00	Ed Young was cautious, sometimes too slow in making decisions.

00:01:38	Ed Young relied on people within department to advise him, such as those in economics.  Issue of recognition of TAA.  Not a successful president.

00:07:52	Student movement had negative impact on university, according to WS, which created credibility problem.  Public also perplexed by faculty's role.  

00:12:23	Merger another important issue in past decade.  WS believes it was a mistake.
Young did a good job in implementing merger.  Constant battle, threat.

00:18:19	Another problem was financial, due to inflation and fewer research funds.  University must learn to cope with these events.  Challenge of maintaining prestige and quality.  What should be done to prevent a department from slipping substantially.

00:27:36	Irving Shain, Robert Bock are good administrators.

00:28:21	End of tape 

1983 Interview
Tape 10 / Side 1

00:00:20	WS discusses influence of E.A. Ross in sociology department.  Ross was dismissed from Stanford because of his criticism of Leland Stanford's labor practices.  He went briefly to Nebraska, then was recruited to UW by Richard T. Ely who had brought, among others John R. Commons and Frederick Jackson Turner.  This helped make Wisconsin a famous university.  Ross was famous for speaking ability.  Wrote two books and textbook. One book was on social control. 

00:06:29	Popular introductory professor.  WS mentions George Lundberg in 1920s.  Became a criminologist.  But Ross as a teacher produced no major scholars.  Mentions Lester Ward as head of Sociological Association, followed by Ross.

00:16:24	Ross's third book, Standing Room Only, was about perceived threat of immigration by Anglo-Americans.  Book viewed today as nativist or racist, but this is a presentist view.  Eugenics a popular idea then.  Ross was a complicated man as demonstrated by his letters to Lester Ward, a relative of his.  Anecdotes about Ross at university functions.

00:28:46	End of side

Tape 10 / Side 2

00:28:47	John Gillin; Kimbell Young, social psychologist, left in 1938; he had been brought to the University by Ross.  Left University because he had an affair with a married woman.  Wendell Bennett left to go into anthropology at Yale.  Personal information on Young's Mormon background.

00:37:27	Sociology has social work verses social reform.

00:39:14	Value free sociology.  First Ph.D.'s studied overseas in Germany mainly.  First advocate of value free sociology in U.S. was Giddings at Columbia, and he turned out most of the leaders in sociology.  Performing statistical analysis and not making judgments.

00:43:20	Neo-Marxism attacked value free approach.  Called political economics. Ross was a social philosopher and not a quantitative researcher.

00:45:00	University of Wisconsin had a reputation as a radical center of sociology because of Ross.  Ross argued for civil rights and for restricting immigration.  Ross advised Theodore Roosevelt.  His research consisted of trips and readings, and was financed through lectures.  Not uncommon.

00:49:08	Sociology department was weak during the 1940s.  Earliest graduate studies ranking placed Wisconsin 4th or 5th in the nation.  Chicago was always number one.  Only took two or three people to make a good department.

00:52:04	Sociology was in the economics department.  Ross threatened to quit if did not get a separate department in 1928.  

00:54:11	WS came to the University in 1946 to Rural Sociology.  Discussion of 1946 sociology faculty.  Rural sociology was part of the sociology department.  Anthropology was also part of sociology.

00:59:20	End of tape

Tape 11 / Side 1

00:00:00	Rural sociology is the strongest subdepartment in the sociology department. Ag economics was separate from rural sociology.  Experimental Station subsidized salaries of faculty like WS.  WS received national recognition for research.

00:03:20	In 1943, WS was commissioned into the Navy.  Received a letter from Kolb and McCormick to come to the University after the War.  WS thought Wisconsin was for "do gooders".  He was offered a good salary of $4500/nine months.

00:06:40	WS had an office in Ag Hall.  Taught graduate level research methods until 1967, until the class size became too large.  WS knew all the Ph.D. students.

00:11:43	Retirements of Gillin and Ross and the loss of Young and Linton affected the department.  Becker and McCormick were brought in.  Department's reputation suffered from 1935-1945.

00:13:22	WS brought in to increase the reputation of the department.  In 1947, he was made Chair of Rural Sociology.  Lumberger and Becker could not stand each other's research.  Becker was the star of the department.

00:16:20	Personality problems between McCormick and Becker.  They had different philosophies.  Becker was difficult to work with.  He also affected retention and hiring in the department adversely.  

00:20:01	In 1959, WS went out to California for one year and was offered a position at UCLA.  He almost accepted because Becker was so difficult.

00:23:24	There were troubled department meetings.  Problems with anthropology professors.  Did not affect caliber of department.

00:27:22	When WS became chairman of Sociology Department in 1958, he was the only faculty to have outside financing.  By 1963 more than $1 million had come into the department.

00:29:43	WS separated anthropology from the sociology department. Both departments went on a hiring spree.  Anthropology never developed that well.

00:30:22	End of side

Tape 11 / Side 2

00:30:23	Continued discussion of separating anthropology and sociology.

00:32:36	When Chairman, WS would go out on talent searches. Young stars of the department received research money and good salaries.  Able to attract people because of size of university, but would lose them to higher paying universities.  Tried to keep the best.  Had a differentiated pay scale.  Wisconsin has great research facilities like the Center for Demography.

00:38:32	Norman Ryder began the Center for Demography.  Hal Winsboro was the guiding force behind it though.  Defined demography so broadly that many people would have access to the facilities.

00:42:55	Ed Borgatta.  Brittingham money was used initially by biology, but WS found a way to use it for professorships.  This was how the department got Borgatta and Orchid.  Tried to get WARF money.

00:45:53	At one point WS's name was on the list for dean of Graduate School.  Did not want him to have access to WARF money so appointed someone else.

00:48:01	Ed Borgatta became chairman after WS.  Brought research money and people into the department.  Borgatta's activities after his chairmanship.

00:52:02	Department never ranked below 12 except once in the 1940s.  In 1983 it ranked first.  How to hold faculty with budget cuts.  Hard to attract senior faculty with reputations, instead have to build reputations.

00:56:40	Not an easy department to be a member of, if not productive.  Highly publishing oriented.

00:59:03	SW's effect on the field includes initial work on status attainment, tested psycho-analytical hypothesis empirically, and developed socio-economic scale for measurement of farm families socio-economic status. 

01:00:31	End of tape

Tape 12 (not transcribed)

00:00:00	Background of merger of University of Wisconsin systems.  No discussion among faculty.  SW never consulted by the governor, nor were most faculty.

00:04:15	Faculty was negative to the idea.  Governor tried to sell the idea based on cost savings.  Instead it has increased costs through more bureaucracy.  Did not change accessibility.  Nothing new was added.

00:08:02	Smaller universities thought once they had gotten out of under CCHE they would be able to offer more graduate work.  Never really happened. Mission statements result of Madison not wanting other universities to have graduate instruction on the same caliber.  Missions statements existed under CCHE.

00:10:56	Merger was a surprise to everyone at Madison.  State prison decision.  No chance to build up anti-merger action.

00:12:23	President Fred Harrington promoted UWM, Parkside, and Green Bay.  SW thought maybe Harrington did not fight the governor because he wanted to run the system.

00:14:02	California merger was not complete, but used as a model.  New York also developed a merged system.

00:15:10	Some Regents really opposed merger. Disadvantage to Madison to be part of the merged system.  Hard to justify higher salaries to Madison.  Merger tried to equalize everything in the system.

00:19:16	Result of merger to Madison.  Madison had to fight equalization all the time. Legislature, in the eyes of the public, have to represent their own state university.

00:21:21	First crisis of the merger.  Moratorium on state salary increases.  WS thinks Madison will lose out.  Even a catch-up pay scheme may not help university compete with other schools.

00:23:40	Up until 1974, Wisconsin had one of the highest expenditures on education, and now that has changed.  Attitudes have changed.  Madison can still compete based on research facilities.  Have to meet the salaries of the star professors though and the legislature understands that.

00:26:08	WARF money available to Madison campus only.  Governor and Legislature have no control over WARF.  WARF helps Madison maintain level of excellence.  WI is tenth in nation in 1984.  It is a struggle.

00:28:47	Do not have a problem retaining old stars only new.  Lost Sorenson.  WARF money has held many faculty members.

00:31:07	Unions in University system are a potential problem. Madison has great research facilities.

00:33:55	Basic science ranking have not been as high as usual.  Humanities have suffered the most.

00:35:38	WS worries about the future of the university.

00:36:55	Most of the state universities have unionized. No effective way to undo the merger.  But it would be best to desegregate the system.  Would benefit all schools.

00:40:14	UW has a good reputation that the other universities are trying to live up to. Wisconsin is a special case because it is poorer than most states.  Efforts to support education is difficult for state.  Michigan is an example without a merged system.

00:45:24	State's cost is higher than more and this makes it difficult to fund education.  Merger has improved the quality of the other schools in the system.

00:48:40	How University comes through a budget crisis will affect Madison and other schools.  Equality will only be achieved by pulling Madison down or pulling others up, which is too expensive.

00:50:47	In Wisconsin, other schools try to emulate Madison.Other schools lack definition.

00:53:16	Another discussion of the source of the merger and the California and New York model.

00:55:43	Discussion of other people to talk to about this issue. 

00:59:35	Governor Lucy never had a group of faculty advisors, and did not make use of University contacts.

01:01:23	End of tape 

1985 interview
Tape 13

00:00:00	Why WS went into sociology.  Had initially planned to be pre-med.  Interested in social sciences the last year at Michigan State.  Only need five classes to major.   Graduated in 1933 during the Depression.   Concerned about social problems.  Sociology and social work were in the same department.  Wisconsin was one of the last schools to separate.

00:06:03	Offer of fellowship at Michigan State in Sociology.  Had forgotten about medicine, which was a family aspiration.

00:07:33	WS had to choose between Chicago and Minnesota for graduate school.  WS studied under Chapin at Minnesota.

00:09:28	Father did not understand sociology.  He offered to pay for the University of London for WS to study economics. Could have received a better theoretical training in sociology at Chicago.

00:11:42	WS had a heart condition when he was a student.

00:12:28	WS's decision to go to quantitative sociology.  Fascination with measuring things.  Entered Minnesota interested in statistics and left interested in measurement. Stayed at Minnesota for three years. Taught half time as an instructor.

00:14:46	Chapin was unusual.  Involved in National Committee.  Started social science encyclopedia.  WS had a good relation with Chapin.  Chapin was not a good lecturer, but competent.  He was not popular.  Seminars would attract people.  Teaching style.  WS knew more statistics than Chapin.  Chapin published six or seven books.  A head of his time in logic structure.

00:21:45	Chapin was interested in sociometry.  He used tinker toys to instruct.  Ex post facto experiments. 

00:26:21	WS has no influence on other graduate students.  Chapin took a personal interest in WS, and kept close track of his career.  Chapin also taught George Lundberg and Louis Guttman.

00:28:45	End of side 

Tape 13 / Side 2 - no audio

Tape 14 / Side 1

00:00:00	Contemporary scholar who was influential is Gutman who developed the Gutman Scale. Sam Stelfer was influential and was at Wisconsin for three years. William F. Agburn was influential but older.  Encouraged researchers.

00:03:05	New Deal influenced the collection of data.  WS did not care to do work for the government.

00:04:34	WS would talk to other researchers on occasion about research topics.  There was a rivalry, but it was not cut throat.  Most researchers were at different universities and not really working on the same ideas.

00:08:25	WS did basic reading on his own.  Had other people critique early work.

00:09:15	While in Oklahoma, WS had a great deal of time to read.  Had three children.  Became a full professor before thirty.

00:11:00	During WWII WS took a naval commission.  Taught naval history to Waves.  National Headquarters of Selective Service, WS was assistant chief of research and statistics.  WS's first experience with large scale statistical processes.

00:12:41	During WWII the government studied the effects of bombing on a civilian population in Germany--called the Bombing Survey.  Morale Division was made up of socio-psychologists.  WS was a member of this division.  WS went to Japan on the Bombing Survey.  WS wrote half of the bombing report.  Experience convinced WS that interdisciplinary approaches to sociology were important. 

00:17:26	WS agreed to come to Wisconsin during the War.  Was recruited by E.B. Fred.  Smart of University to recruit during the war.
	
00:20:41	WS and Herbie Hyman went to Swarthmore for two months after the War to layout the coding scheme and analytical scheme for the survey. WS began at the University in April 1946.  Appointed to Rural Sociology and jointly to Sociology.  Later moved to Sociology full-time, and then became the chairman.

00:21:51	Personality and social structure were an interest, and WS taught a class in these subjects until he left.  Wrote on article on Freud during his socialization period.

00:24:58	Visited the Kardner-Linton Seminar at Columbia about personality and culture.  Inspired research.   WS was interested in psycho-sexual development of individuals.  Infant training study was WS's most famous work.  It had completely contradicted psychoanalysts.

00:28:06	End of side

Tape 14 / Side 2

00:28:07	Discusses Freud.  Developed questionnaire and chose Richland County for the child development study.  Women conducted interviews of mothers.

00:32:10	Adolescent socialization.  WS studied the adjustment of foreign students on American campuses from a questionnaire developed by the Social Science Research Council.

00:34:26	WS was at the Center for Behavior Science at the Ford Center at Stanford.  WS became interested in stratification issues.

00:35:07	WS on writing style and ability.  Never had a single author article turned down by a journal.

00:39:45	WS's time at Stanford.  Thought he had come to a dead end until Stanford.  Cliff Little study. WS went to India in 1956.  He was a Ford Foundation Professor of Research Methodology at the New Delhi School of Economics.  Resistance from Wisconsin faculty.  WS's mission in India.

00:43:56	While at Stanford, WS took Little's sample data.  Received money from the National Institute of Health to conduct study at Wisconsin.  Expanded data.  Published in 1969.  Developed the Wisconsin model.

00:50:04	Archie Haller's involvement in the Wisconsin model, and Bob Hauser's.

00:52:27	Big model published in 1972, which was more complicated than the 1969 version.  Whole series of articles.

00:53:27	Did a follow up study on the 1964 child information with a 87% response rate.  Developed into a big model.

00:54:28	In 1975, WS went back to the 1964 participants and interviewed by phone.  WS has been working on and publishing ever since.

00:55:04	End of tape 

Tape 15 / Side 1

00:00:00	Dudley Duncan's early background.  WS later collaborated with Duncan informally.  Duncan taught at Wisconsin for several years.  Blau and Duncan co-wrote American Occupational Structure.  Blau-Duncan model developed. 

00:06:42	WS interested in social psychology.

00:07:36	Path analysis developed by Sewell Wright.  Duncan discovered path models while at Michigan and wrote a book.  Duncan was influential in modeling.  Duncan met Wright.

00:12:47	People influential to WS were Chapin, Gutman, Bob Hauser, and Duncan.

00:13:22	WS and Hauser had joint research staff and area.  In the early years WS was project leader, and then he and Hauser became co-project leaders.  Worked well together.

00:23:03	Hauser was well read.  A bit combative.  WS underplayed critics, but Hauser was more aggressive.

00:25:15	WS asked to criticize Institute of Education Research program.  WS told them their efforts were a failure.

00:28:12	End of side

Tape 15 / Side 2

00:28:13	People have criticized WS's generalization of results, and for results being too socio-psychological, which has gone out of style.  Organizational, national and international systems are popular.

00:29:15	Central psychological claims of socio-psychological model.  Is feedback taken into account.

00:32:58	Others have improved WS's models.  This is a natural process of research/science.

00:34:17	Graduate/Ph.D.'s have used data.  Other universities have used the data.  Data now in public domain.

00:35:54	WS has been married to data for a long time.

00:37:45	Was WS's emphasis on the science of sociology conditioned by earlier natural science experience?  WS does not think so.

00:39:38	Project becoming a burden.  A lot of funding money and has delivered a great deal.  Still incomplete topics. Side projects.  WS has worked on intelligence and fertility.  Occasionally would give informal talks.

00:42:09	Duncan moves from one field to another every seven years.

00:43:37	WS was on the National Academy Committees as chairman of social sciences.  Very active.  Influential in opening National Science Foundation and National Institute of Health to support sociological research.  WS was the first to get into a NIH committee. 

00:45:28	WS was on the Founding Committee of the National Institute for Child Development.

00:46:38	If WS could do things over.  Might have gone into bacteriology or perhaps psychology or economics.  Not sorry for choice of sociology.

00:49:12	WS took over sociology department with thirteen members.  Six years later it had 35.  Enjoyed developing a department.  Loved research for the whole of his career.

00:50:36	WS's family during the hectic years.  Early morning reading habit.  Started work solo, and later co-authored works.

00:53:37	End of tape

1988 Interview – not transcribed
Supplementary Interview by Mark Solovay
Tape 17 / Side 1

00:00:00	Sociology and its relationship to social reform.  Reform has been an object of sociology, especially in its earliest days.  Sociologists began taking social surveys among urban poor and documenting their housing conditions, nutrition, and fertility, especially of immigrants.

00:03:14	William Graham Sumner an early sociologist.  Early sociologists believed sociology was useful to reform, but did not see selves as reformers.

00:04:24	Survey movement really got underway in 1940s, seeking information on fertility, living standards, budgets; there had been some surveys in 1930s, especially on farm communities.

00:08:59	Studies also taken on mental illness, which discovered mental illness more common in transitional neighborhoods.

00:10:55	Most sociologists stopped short of advocating on behalf of social problems, tended to investigate.

00:13:22	Studies taken on effects of war--soldier studies.  Studies influenced how later troops were organized.  Studies influenced move toward end of racial discrimination in military at end of WWII.

00:18:11	Sociological research had been used widely, not simply theoretical.

00:21:51	University of Chicago--a very prestigious program in 1940s.  Peter Rossie spoke on applications of sociology.

00:23:00	By 1940s sociologists had removed selves from reform as a goal.  Remained with social policy analysis.

00:25:13	Sociology in 1960s.  Economists more active in social policy at Wisconsin, especially John R. Commons.

00:27:40	Sociologists tend to strive to be more scientific in methodology.  Because of surplus number of Ph.D.'s in field, some became involved in government, administration.

00:30:20	End of side.

Tape 17 / Side 2

00:30:21	Some Ph.D.'s work in government agencies.

00:31:41	Social Science--ways in which it is a science.  Compared with natural sciences.  Uses methods from natural sciences such as identifying problems, setting up hypothesis, designing variables.  Sample surveys are important in sociology.  

00:35:22	Criticisms of sample survey results.  Economists usually do not sample; test using econometric results without focusing on quality of data used.

00:41:00	Social science methods now more accepted by biological sciences; social sciences better able to receive money from foundations.

00:43:24	Many sociologists made names through textbooks, not research.  Most people could not expect a research career in WWII era.  Today, not more than half sociology Ph.D.'s do research.

00:50:39	Debates among sociologists about methodology.  Armchair, philosophical focus, social control with no experimentation.  Simply observation.  Then some research.  Sampling techniques still somewhat crude.  By WWII, models formed.  Emphasis on empiricism.  Many critics.  Theorists especially.

00:55:27	Criticism on social attainment studies, but 80-85% follow this approach.

00:57:07	End of tape

Tape 18 / Side 1

00:00:00	Relationship between sociology and other social science disciplines.  All came out of philosophy.  In early 1900s, there was a social science college, but then disciplines started splitting from each other.  In early 20th century, sociology together with social work and anthropology.  This occurred in 1947.  Social work saw selves as a profession.

00:08:15	Differences between social anthropology and sociology.  Now emphasis toward studying other societies.  Sociology and economics almost always separate departments.  E.A. Ross came here in 1906.

00:24:56	Good deal of interdisciplinary social sciences in post-war period.

00:28:00	Columbia, Michigan, Harvard, Chicago granted interdisciplinary degree programs in psychology, sociology, sometimes social anthropology in late 1940s, mid-1950s.  

00:30:10	End of side.
 
Tape 18 / Side 2

00:30:11	Continued discussion of interdisciplinary programs.  Can't survive in university culture.  Contrast this situation with that of physical sciences.  Biochemistry broke away from chemistry to form its own department.

00:44:51	Quantitative history a growing field, but still small.  Mentions Allan Bogue.  History still not considered a social science.

00:59:04	End of tape

Tape 19 / Side 1

00:00:00	Social science funding.  Carnegie and Rockefeller were the principal ones originally; in the 1950s the Ford foundation got involved.  Not much funding for research.  Experimental stations of land grant colleges had some funds in agriculture.  This was available for rural sociology.  National Institute for Mental Health made large grants in 1948.  Other federal funds became very important.  In 1956, WS was appointed to committee selected to review grant proposals.  Chaired this in 1959-61.  Reagan administration changed grant procedures.

00:10:19	New emphasis on aging in early 1970s.

00:11:53	National Science Foundation--how it was set up in mid-1940s.  Limited funds finally made available in some areas of social sciences.  Harry Alpert.  These needed to be quantitative.  Expanded program in 1957, 1958.  By 1965, this was well-established in social sciences.  Ten to eleven per cent of money went to social sciences.  Reagan's proposed 1981 federal budget cut funding for social sciences by 50%, but half these cuts restored by Congress.

00:25:20	University support for social sciences.  All major private universities have centers for social science research.  Public universities vary in amount they appropriate for social science.

00:26:52	Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation (WARF) money available for biological sciences.  E.B. Fred and Constance Elvehjem opposed to allowing social sciences access to WARF money.  Fred Harrington as president finally succeeded in getting WARF committee to agree to funding social sciences.  Opening up of WARF funds regenerated social sciences, especially sociology.

00:31:02	More on WARF funding.  WS's experiences on grant committees.  Served on National Science Foundation (NSF) committee to reorganize it in early 1970s.  Three of WS's former students with NSF, directing sociology.  Roland Lever, Joanne Miller, Jim Zuiches.  Other foundations--Rockefeller, Russell-Sage Foundation important.

00:39:46	National Research Council has social science division, commission on human resources.  Works with governmental agency research.

00:43:00	WS chaired National Council on Research.  Concerned with problems faced by universities in government funding agencies.

00:43:54	End of side

Tape 20 / Side 1

00:00:00	Report on Industries and University.  Reports on assessing quality of proposals and funding mechanisms.  Tremendous variations on funding among government agencies.  In late 1970s was a drawing back from research training in sciences.

00:02:58	This work not directly related to sociology, but had various experiences they saw as helpful.

00:05:43	End of interview
END

Indexing that has no audio:

Tape 13

023	Chapin's influence on WS's work.  WS received an offer from the University of Indiana as a full-time instructor, but wanted to do research.  Oklahoma had just started a department and offered WS half time in the College of Letters and Science and half time in the agricultural experiment station.

056	Thurstone developed attitude measurements during WS's graduate days.  WS wanted to do further work.  Ph.D. work focused on WS taking his own initiative towards reading.

098	WS minored in economics just when the theory of imperfect competition was developed.  Course work was interdisciplinary as a student.

131	Gather data for Ph.D. dissertation while at Oklahoma on a rural sample.  Devised a scale of socio-economic status for farm families.  First modern scale in sociology.  WS gained national recognition. 

221	Dissertation scale idea came originally from Chapin, called the living room scale.  WS had an interest in social stratification.

270	WS's current interest is in career mobility.  WS not involved in policy issues directly.

296	One study WS worked on and developed helped farmers obtain social security.

316	Education Occupational Aspirations Study was used by Mondale.

329	WS was at Oklahoma for seven years.  Published fifteen papers on socio-economic status.  Bob Martin was leading theoretician.  He wed social theory to social research and coined theories of the middle range.  Martin influenced many including WS.

395	William White, Robin Williams, and Kingsley Davis were leaders in sociology.  WS went from assistant to full professor in four years.

431	End of tape 13, side 2.

From Tape 18:

065	Some efforts at Wisconsin at interdisciplinary science in early 1950s, late 1940s, in social psychology especially.  Began organizing a joint degree program.  This program did not result in degree-granting program.

148	Urban Institute took up some research done in sociology department, some from University left to work there.  Discusses Data Library for Social Sciences.  Institute for Poverty Studies is interdisciplinary but most programs are not degree-granting.  Environmental Institute, Land Tenure Institute.

200	Quantitative Sociology--an attempt to gather data for multivariant analysis.  William Hartland, Stuart Chapin, Howard Ogburn very influential in this field.  Tried to derive single measurements of family status.  Increasing emphasis on quantification among pre-war Ph.D.'s.  Louis Gutman's innovations in scaling measurement.  Computer Revolution made quantitative history much easier.  Before that work had to be done by hand.

From Tape 19:

212	Problems of bureaucracy, rules and regulations.  Disputes between government, universities on particular aspects and details of programs.  American Council on Education, American Association of Universities, National Science Foundation, National Academy of Sciences, Social Science Research Council mentioned.  Problems of accounting.  Industry and university.