UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #1002
BIDDLE, DONNA 

BIDDLE, DONNA (1940-)
Graduate Student, Fire Fighter
At UW: early 1960s 

Interviewed: 	2009 (2 sessions)
Interviewer: 	Linda Lenzke
Index by: 	Carmen Baumann
Length: 	2 hour, 42 minutes (total)
Series:		Madison’s LGBT Community, 1960s to present

Abstract: In her 2009 interview with Linda Lenzke, Donna Biddle talks about her upbringing in a conservative community in Indiana, the educational path that led her to the University of Wisconsin-Madison and her early experiences within the Madison gay community of the 1960s and 70s. She discusses the following topics: secrecy about sexual orientation at UW in the 1960s and 1970s, the emergence of the lesbian community in 1970s Madison, Lysistrata, 1960s war protests, the Wisconsin Political Caucus, working for the State of Wisconsin, the founding of the New Harvest Foundation. 

Key Words: Indiana, 1940s, poverty, UW-Madison, UW Purge of 1960, Langdon Street, Lorraine Hotel, Manchester’s Department Store, Pirate Ship, Edgewater Hotel, State of Wisconsin, Marijuana use, 1960s Vietnam War Protests on UW campus, Barbara Lightner, Susan Johnson, Carol Bentley, Lysistrata, Wisconsin Political Caucus, Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival, Room of One’s Own Bookstore, New Harvest Foundation, Lesbian Variety Show, Barrymore Theater, Apple Island, Olivia Cruise Vacations.

Interview Session 1 (June 17, 2009): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction. 

00:00:24	Question: Talk about your family background. Answer: Born in Terre Haute, IN, her parents divorced when she was very young and her father left leaving Biddle with no memory of him. She was “born into a family of women” and recalls her home filled with adult women—her mother, grandmother and aunts. 

00:02:01	[no question] Indiana was a very conservative area and Biddle hid her feelings, from a very early age, about her attraction to girls out of “instinct.” Her first crush was in 1st grade on a girl named Marilyn who shared her birthday. She would tell people, when they asked if she had a “boyfriend”, “Oh, yes, Bernard” a fellow classmate. Years later she found that Bernard was also gay and he used to lie about her as his “girlfriend” as well. Biddle remarks that this pretend “crush” went on throughout grade school because both she a Bernard felt safe using each other in this little game.

00:04:28	[no question] Biddle remarks living in the Bible belt was difficult because, “everything was a sin.” When Biddle was about 9 years old her minister remarked that she was now at the age where she needed to be saved. Biddle answered him with, “Reverend, I can’t hate enough to be a Christian.”

00:06:02	Question: Talk about your family values about women’s self-sufficiency. Answer: Biddle does not recall her mother ever forcing her into a particular gender role. She had the freedom to express herself as a young child the way she wanted through play that was interesting to her rather than dictated by gender. 

00:08:06	[no question] Biddle grew up in poverty and on welfare. Her family tried to keep their economic status secret to avoid ridicule and harassment. When Biddle was in 4th grade her teacher found out she was on welfare and forbade her from participating in class despite her being among the top students in class. 

00:09:46	[no question] When Biddle was a senior in high school she again suffered from discrimination when she was informed that she had won a college scholarship but it was withheld from her, “because she was poor and would only drop of school.”

00:10:26	Question: Talk about how coming to UW changed your life. Answer: Biddle comments on how Indiana had very good schools despite the discrimination she suffered. She attended schools that had a system that allowed students to “catch up” if they were falling behind in their learning without having to be held back a grade. She also attended a college prep high school where 1/3 of the students were black and 95% of her class went on to college. This was right after Brown vs. Board of Education made segregation in public schools unconstitutional. 

00:13:28	[no question] Biddle went to college in her home town. She had saved enough money to attend two quarters: $100.00 (the quarters cost $44.00 each). In high school she had participated in public speaking and debate and she continued this in her first year at college and joined the debate team. She worked helping out the debate team to earn money as well as private tutoring as a reader for a friend who had trouble seeing. 

00:15:26	[no question] She was able to attend for the first two quarters but ran out of money by the third quarter. Despite her extreme shyness and the discouragement of her social worker she went to the scholarship office to ask for help. Because of her high GPA (3.25) the office granted Biddle a full scholarship if she kept her B average. She also recalled a friend’s parents offering to pay any tuition she couldn’t afford.

00:19:01	[no question] Biddle kept her grades high and joined the debate team. She was never out during college. It was impossible for her because she would have been expelled. She never had any relationships in school as well because she had to keep her sexual orientation secret. She did date men during college but only socially. She went on double dates and even had a proposal that she turned down because anything else would have been a lie. Biddle decided that her fate would be to go on to graduate school to become a professor because, “since she couldn’t have any other kind of life she could have an academic life.” She was convinced that she would never have a “love life” based on everything she knew about lesbians at this point in her life. 

00:20:36	[no question] Biddle was a championship debater during her senior year in college. Because of her high success in debate, three schools bid on her to attend their graduate programs: Ohio State, Northwestern University and the University of Wisconsin—Madison. All offered teaching assistantships in debate and public speaking. She chose the UW because Madison offered a fellowship in addition to the TA position and waived the out of state tuition.

00:22:24	[no question] She talked about leaving her mother, grandmother and younger sister to come to Madison for graduate school. It created conflict because her mother thought Biddle would stay close to home to pursue her education and was upset that she moved so far from home. But continuing her education was encouraged. Biddle’s mother suffered from several health problems and was abusive to her daughters, so leaving her younger sister with the burden of staying with an abusive parent was hard.

00:25:56	Question: Talk about transitioning to Madison. Answer: Madison felt like “another world” to Biddle when she moved here. She stayed in the old Lorraine Hotel while looking for a permanent residence. She found a room on Langdon Street in a rooming house owned by the parents of the man who built The House on the Rock. Although it was small and she had to share a bathroom down the hall, it was a comfy, lovely room. 

00:28:41	[no question] Biddle was quite lonely her first night in Madison, but this loneliness was short lived when she started classes at the UW the next day. At her old school students were required to follow a strict dress code. Biddle mistakenly enforced this dress code on her first day on the assignment committee, sending home students who she deemed improperly dressed. Her experience in Indiana had not prepared her for the more liberal and open campus environment at the UW. The “huge” transition to a new city and academics at UW-Madison caused her emotional problems. The new environment, her lack of friends and her limited funding (forcing her to eat only one meal a day) caused a depression that resulted in her checking into the psychiatric ward at UW hospital for 11 weeks. She continued teaching classes while staying at the hospital and was able to remain in Graduate school. Biddle completed her course work well but left UW before finishing her MA due to the amount of work involved to complete her chosen thesis and the cost involved in continuing her education.

00:34:16	[no question] During this time, Biddle had frequent crushes on women at UW, but the University was not a place to come out, so she again had to remain closeted. She claims that even to this day, the University is not a place where people feel safe to come out. She told about stories she’d heard about purges of gay and lesbian faculty, staff and graduate students at the University in 1960s. Biddle remarks that the Dean of Students at the time was herself a lesbian and felt bad about expelling other out gays and lesbians at the UW.

00:35:50	[no question] After leaving UW, Biddle got a job as a counsellor for a YMCA summer camp and, shortly after, at Manchester’s Department Store (located on Capitol Square) training sales clerks. She remarks that she met several gay men while working there, but women were harder to meet. They didn’t have places to go to socialize like the men did (Pirate Ship). She made many gay male friends many from the Edgewater Hotel. These friendships helped her to get over her depression. 

00:39:44	[no question] In 1963, a young woman, Phyllis, moved into the Biddle’s rooming house to whom she was instantly attracted. She described how her feelings for Phyllis caused her to openly pursue a more serious relationship. Her attentions were reciprocated and she and Phyllis were together for 23 years. As their relationship grew, they decided they needed to move in together. They moved into a 3 bedroom apartment on Johnson Street for $75.00 plus utilities and begged and borrowed for furniture and items to furnish the apartment. 

00:42:58	[no question] When she was laid off at Manchester’s, Biddle managed to get a fellowship in English Literature at UW and in a year finished her MA. She and Phyllis also became house mothers on campus to earn money and free housing. This work allowed Phyllis to pursue her artwork at a studio above Triangle Market on State Street and Biddle to complete her MA. She talked about teaching at Orfordville briefly, which she disliked. Thereafter they moved to Monona, WI and started working at Grayber’s Curtain Rod Factory at night, while Biddle looked for a new job and Phyllis worked on her art during the days.

00:46:06	[no question] Biddle finally got a job with the State, where she remained until she retired. She noted that during the late 1960s more people were coming out at gay and lesbian and the community started growing in Madison, though a lot of this was slow, by chance, and closeted. Follow up: This was during the time of a lot of activism. Talk about that. Answer: Biddle remarked on an overwhelming idealism that permeated the spirits of those involved in the protests—students and activists truly believed they could change the world through what they were doing. She quipped that she was first introduced to marijuana while working at the State—ironically, by a Barry Goldwater conservative. She talked about their heavy involvement in the war protest movement to the point of being tear gassed on State Street during a protest. It was at this time Biddle met Barbara Lightner, Carol Bentley and Susan Johnson. 

00:50:33	[no question] Biddle talked about large parties she attended, particularly in graduate school, which were most often thrown by lesbian staff and students. When the party was over, the lesbians would stay behind under the pretense of helping to clean up and have a party of their own where they could be themselves. The interviewer and Biddle remark on how although the late 1960s were a highly visible time for civil rights gay and lesbian rights were not a part of that movement, especially at the UW. Biddle remarks that she could have been more open about her sexual orientation at her State job than she ever could at the University.

00:52:36	[no question] Biddle talked about joining Altrusa, a women’s service club. Many older women in the club were lesbians but were not out, partly because many were prominent powerful community leaders. “It was a time when you were very careful.” About 1970, some Altrusa women began a support group for other lesbians, but when Lightner pushed for the group to register with the state, it broke up. 

00:55:36	[no question] She commented that she decided to get active in United (later Outreach) but left because the men ran the show and women’s participation was generally kept to secretarial role. During this time, they started a softball league, but she quipped about being too afraid to play. 

00:57:34	[no question] She talked about the start of Lysistrata: “A place of our own.” She said shareholders in the restaurant called themselves Sweet Friends after the Meg Christian song. She also talked about women’s music becoming very popular. Their friends would find albums by lesbian artists in nearby larger cities (Chicago) and would have dinner parties to “screen” them for friends. Also, softball city league started in the early 1970s and Biddle joined. From these social events, a lesbian community began to emerge. 

01:00:43	[no question] Biddle speaks about her early attempts at seeking out information about lesbianism in Terre Haute contrasted by her first experiences with real lesbians—people she knew and respected. 

01:02:25	Question: Had you come out to your families at the time? Answer: Biddle said that when, during her stressful stay at the mental ward, she mentioned her feelings for women to her mother, her mother replied, “no you are not [one of those] and I don’t want to hear you mention it again.” Phyllis’ family was more supportive, but not open about it. They just accepted their relationship without definition or acknowledgment.

01:05:09	[no question] She talked about “picking and choosing” who they wanted to come out to, using the example of inviting Phyllis to a couples group of people from her work in 1973, near their 10th anniversary. She said this was “scary territory,” noting that while they’d made inferences, a number of her coworkers still hadn’t figured it out.

01:08:24	[no question] She discussed joining Wisconsin Political Caucus as a representative for Altrusa. She recalled fearing the group’s reaction when she informed them that lesbians would be involved, and being surprised that they had no problem with lesbians. As Biddle continued to come out to various groups, she learned that it was probably more her own internal fear that was holding her back rather than outside groups’ prejudice.

01:10:45	[no question] She continued to talk about being active in Lysistrata. They commented on differences between Lysistrata and other “gay bars”—good lighting, a special place, a “fern bar,” a welcoming and warm place to gather for community meetings for both straight and lesbian women. She discussed financial difficulties the restaurant faced when its clientele changed, the stand she and other women made that it had to be kept open until it sold at least, and how she helped to organize the highly successful Friday dinners to save it from closing. She related how one night after the Friday dinner, the building burnt down because of activities on another floor of the building. She talked about the court trial in which they fought with the insurance company to recover their losses.

Interview Session 2 (June 24, 2009): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:01:09	Question: Talk about community building in the 1980s, as opposed to the activism of the 60s and 70s. Answer: Biddle noted that Lysistrata was a key meeting place for lesbian and straight women to plan activities, work towards common goals and form a greater community of women. She reflected that while the group tolerated annoying behavior in each other out of solidarity in the 70s, in the 1980s the group became more social and build actual friendships. She talked about “the time of softball leagues,” Fallen Women Productions bringing women’s artists to Madison, people dealing with their own behaviors, and the MI Womyn’s Music Festival (MWMF). 

00:06:11	[no question] She detailed the beginnings of MWMF, going the first time with her Room of One’s Own softball team. She remarked that it was a wonderful community building trip; they met women from all over the world. She told an anecdote about the “Michigan madonna” using her own warmth to warm her child’s washcloth and the experiences of Southern women for whom MWMF was their only opportunity to be themselves.

00:10:18	[no question] Biddle talked about the shift away from always talking politics to community building. She noted that their best meetings were spontaneous gatherings, before “we PDA’d ourselves into meetings booked years in advance”—like Friday night fish fries, cookouts, and casual get-togethers.

00:11:57	[no question] She talked about needing a new place to gather after Lysistrata burned. She recalled searching for new places, one being a Quonset hut owned by the CC Riders. She editorialized about how a motorcycle gang in Madison was different.

00:13:40	Question: Talk about celebrating “orphan holidays.” Answer: Biddle hosted holiday celebrations for women whose families were too distant or unwilling to celebrate with them. These parties helped lesbians to form extended families “of choice” and developed into Easter and New Year’s Eve parties as well. She commented that social networking was leading to professional networking as well.

00:18:22	[no question] She discussed New Harvest Organization, which was started to give seed money to LGBT organizations and businesses. She talked about hard feelings that were engendered by the way New Harvest went about raising money. She also reminisced about the celebration of the commencement of New Harvest, held downtown at the old Civic Center, attended by the Mayor of Madison and representatives of the City Council, and covered in the local media. She supposed it was a real turning point for the LGBT community.

00:22:15	[no question] Biddle discussed being on the New Harvest board, which she described as one of the best boards she’d been on because they didn’t “process everything.” She talked about fundraisers they did—a garden show, an art auction with catered food, and dinner-dances, which were attended by as many straight people as gays. She noted that along with the integration of gays and lesbians in to the Madison community, the need for a separate space for LGBT parties was lessened. 

00:26:58	[no question] Another thing that was happening was older productions like Fallen Women Prod. were unnecessary as openly lesbian women artists appeared. Also, those who were doing all the work were getting tired. She used the example of Lesbian Variety Show to talk about how what was happening in society was reflected on the stage.  While it was held at the Barrymore Theater and sold out quickly in its heyday, it was at first not very “well juried.”

00:30:14	Question: Talk about Apple Island. Answer: Apple Island, located on E. Washington Ave., grew out of a desire to create a women’s only place for meetings and performances. Biddle commented that it was not the same as Lysistrata—it was a space for performance, though not only for dancing, but also for socializing. Many events were planned as well as held there. She talked about some of these social events, like camping. 

00:35:32	Question: Talk about the Peer Support Group. Answer: Biddle explained that it was never initially intended to be a support group, but rather developed out of a common interest in John Bradshaw’s programs. But when they saw how women connected, they began meeting regular to talk about their issues and offer support and advice. She discussed the group and age dynamics and variety of experiences. After several of the members died, the group never regained its old dynamic.

00:40:17	Question: Talk about the transition to retirement. Answer: She said she counted herself lucky—since she retired in 1989 before the Bush Administration, she was not severely affected by the negative economic impact. She assumed she’d be fine because she had lots of hobbies and other interests but found she missed the intellectual stimulation of work terribly. So she went back to work for the WI Dept of Corrections for another 2 years. She also audited some classes at UW and discussed the benefits and limitations of that pursuit.

00:47:08	[no question] She noted she’d also planned vacation money into her retirement, specifically Olivia [lesbian-only] Cruises. She described how relaxing her first cruise, to Scandinavia, was—it was a Meg Christian and Chris Williamson reunion. She also talked about how Olivia Company rents cruise lines from other companies, invites only lesbians to be onboard, planned activities specifically for lesbians, and had a great reputation with the cruise companies. She described the cruises as “Michigan [Womyn’s Festival] with chocolate on your pillows.” Biddle commented that Olivia began a lesbian community in Palm Springs FL and is involved in women’s music.

00:53:42	[no question] Biddle expressed that, as she has aged, it was harder to make new contacts with lesbians compared to earlier in her life. Family life and those of her friends that have children also has changed the community. Her friend group has changed. Dating at an older age (she was partnered until she was 48 years old) was a new experience. It was harder to find partners. Biddle admits these challenges are not limited to lesbians and gays. Older people in our culture find their lives “get lonelier.” She also said some of the older social events were no longer held, though ROLlers was still fun, her friends didn’t want to go out late, many were losing their memory, and many were moving to retirement communities.

01:04:57	Question: Issues facing you and the community in the next decade? Answer: Health. She worried about her health (arthritis and other joint problems) limiting or excluding her from gatherings and social activities. Her own personality had also made her isolated all her life, so that was something she needed to work on and to make an effort to be more social.

1:09:57	[no question] She commented that the greater LGBT community has changed in the sense that the push from young lesbians to find their own space was less. Younger lesbians were more comfortable being lesbian publically and she thought the separate lesbian community would disappear as lesbians integrated into wider accepted society, though she also thought it was possible that gays and lesbians would lose ground in terms of rights if they were complacent. She observed that President Obama hadn’t been as good as they thought for gays, discussed rights the LGBT community still didn’t have, and cautioned the next generation of women and lesbians to keep moving forward.

01:18:14	End of Interview Session

End of Oral History #1002