UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #233
WILLIAMS, JOHN W.

WILLIAMS, John W. (1898-1988)
Graduate Student; Professor of Chemistry
At UW: 1921-1968

Interviewed: 1982	
Series: Life Sciences
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length: 1.5 hours

Appointment to Chemistry Department; Salary; Foundation grants; Issue of work space in new building; Farrington Daniels; Graduate and post-doctoral students; Faculty in 1920s; Department attitude towards "slop chemistry"; Work during WWII; E. B. Fred's support; Department's relations with Biochemistry and Physiological Chemistry; Faculty meetings; Fred's Blue Ribbon Horse Committee; WARF money; Dining club; Computers; Teaching in sciences.

Tape 1/Side 1 
 
00:01:17	Background, came to University in 1921.  Received Ph.D. in 1925.  Appointed instructor in 1926 in chemistry department.  Frank helpful to JW when question of salary increase arose.  E.B. Fred recommended, Frank agreed, but Sellery refused to do it.  Failure of faculty governance.  Affected JW for next forty years.  

00:15:14	Department accused JW of going to Weaver in New York to get foundation money--tainted money.  No longer any objection to foundation money in UW at that time.  Elvehjem only person JW knew to stand up to the L&S dean (when Elvehjem was graduate dean). 

00:20:05	JW acquired money on his own for his floor in the chemistry building.  JW had been working in a basement hardly fit for animals.  Farrington Daniels said JW would be given decent space in a new building, but when time came Daniels said, sorry, but we can not fit you in.  JW received, with help of a couple of his friends and within only two weeks time got enough money to add space, so no one could ever put them out--one of government's conditions.  But last summer, twenty years was up and JW offered to leave, but chairman said, "You can stay there as long as you want to." 

00:22:48	You couldn't trust Daniels.  He would tell you one thing and next day take it back.  People with JW were Robert Alberty, John Ferry, and Lou Gosting.  Research had to do with large and unusual molecules.  When JW joined department there were eight professors.  Five or six of them were over sixty.Their ideas of chemistry were nothing like JW's.  None of them had heard of a centrifuge until they saw it in basement.  Value of centrifuge -protein molecule. 

00:28:23	Chemistry department people, including Daniels, never comprehended it.  Discusses Crick and Salk Institute. 

00:31:18	Joseph Mathews was interested in colloid chemistry. 

00:31:45	End of side.
 
Tape 1/Side 2 
 
00:31:47	Mathews asked JW to take over colloid chemistry program.  JW dubious about existence of colloid chemistry.  Explains why.  Mathews let JW go in direction he wanted.  Question about strength of department under Mathews.  Louis Kahlenberg, Leonard, Richard Fischer, Schuette were elderly people.  Didn't realize life had changed.  They called study of molecules "slop chemistry".  Used to hurt JW.  Daniels didn't understand.  Daniels would try to describe what JW was doing when recommending him for something and JW would have to rewrite it. 

00:38:00	Their textbook on experimental physical chemistry. 

00:40:47	Question about teaching.  JW felt he was pushed too hard to do research.  Would like to have had more time to teach.  Fine students in 1950s and 1960s (graduate students).  Had over fifty post Ph.D. students from abroad, excellent.  JW paid them to come. 

00:42:55	JW went various places for his grants.  Didn't want to overdo requests to one place.  Got WARF money before federal agencies became available.  Was on many panels.  That's why he didn't like it when he was refused a summer salary and told to find his own money. 

00:45:11	Most people in chemistry had summer salaries. 

00:45:40	JW's work during World War II.  Fainted at University Club one day.  Clarence Dykstra relieved him of all teaching duties.  Was on University contract with OSRD. 

00:49:06	Fred was a great friend.  Supported JW.  John Weaver and Ingraham were friends but Ingraham was not interested in science.

00:49:58	A job offer JW had.  Was at crucial spot in his research.  JW had promised E.B. Fred that he wouldn't leave.  Fred was one of best presidents along with John Bascom and Van Hise. 

00:52:53	Harrington changed whole University.  Earlier presidents used deans.  Harrington used administrators, and deans were way down in hierarchy.  University too large. 

00:55:16	JW had liked what he was doing during war, in protein chemistry, but chemistry department didn't want it.  JW went out to Caltech once a year to find people hecould talk to.  Chemists here didn't like anything to do with chemistry of life.  JW worked some with bacteriologists, but not with biochemistry.  They are doing what JW was doing.  They had been candidates in chemistry.  There had been a food chemist in chemistry department but moved over; same with study of vitamins.  Could have been in chemistry department. 

01:01:43	Question about medical departments.  Philip and Harold Deutsch.  Deutsch had been with JW.  Cohen never achieved anything.  JW says National Academy awards were political. 

01:03:42	End of side. 

Tape 2/Side 1 
 
01:03:45	JW scared in faculty meetings.  Never spoke.  Didn't like way George Sellery dressed people down.  Paul Knaplund, too.  JW took Robert Alberty to faculty meeting.  JW used to sit with Walter Morton at University  Club.  Fred no good at running faculty meetings.  These others would do talking.  Knaplund and Sellery disagreed about everything. 

01:10:13	Daniels took over Matthews' course, because he was writing a textbook. 

01:11:49	JW was on Mr. Fred’s blue ribbon horse committee for nineteen years.  Went to chairmen of departments in L&S for candidates.  Recruiting graduate students.  JW recruited Bob Byrd.  Fred set up committee when he was graduate dean.
 
01:18:53	Was for scientists only. 

01:19:38	Fred believed WARF money was committed to scientists.  JW realized now that they did things they shouldn't--gave more money to get people to come. 

01:22:20	JW proud of people being recruited--Robert Bock, Alberty, man in genetics.  Deutsch saved Phil Cohen. 

01:24:29	JW didn't take part in departmental committees. 

01:25:29	JW belonged to one of Ingraham's dining clubs--Merle Curti, Walter Agard.  Ingraham was leading spirit.  It disbanded.  Mentions another club.  JW andMerle Curti were fond of each other but had hard times talking.  Paul Raushenbush was in it but died.  Then Agard died.  A geneticist who grew corn. Never took time during active faculty life.  Discusses daughter. 

01:33:28	Use of computer.  By time he retired he realized that his work would benefit from it. 

01:34:52	Outstanding faculty.  John D. Ferry was a nice person.  Doesn't fight. 

01:36:02	JW refers again to bypassing L&S dean and going directly to graduate school dean. 

01:37:26	End of side. 
 
Tape 2/Side 2 
 
01:37:28	JW didn't like committee work.  Question about recruiting women students.  JW had five good students.  An example. 

01:41:21	Some general discussion.  He reads Christian Science Monitor. 

01:44:57	JW critical of professors who are more concerned about own reputation than training students.  Students don't have enough contact with professor.  JW owes his careers to professors he worked with in Germany and Sweden.  Contrasts length of classroom time.  Seventy minutes too long for concentration in hard sciences.  JW thinks that he would have been happier teaching. 

01:50:33	End of tape. End of interview. 

END