UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #253
BAUMANN, CARL A.

BAUMANN, Carl A. (1906- )
Undergraduate and Graduate Student; Professor of Biochemistry
At UW: 1925-1974

Interviewed: 1983	
Series: Life Sciences
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length: 3.5 hours

Milwaukee Extension in 1920s; Transfer to UW; Experimental College students; Chemistry fraternity; Chemistry Department in 1920s; Graduate work in biochemistry; Faculty relationships; Work under Harry Steenbock; Reputation of Biochemistry Department faculty; Steenbock as teacher; Chairman Conrad Elvehjem and purchase of equipment; Study in Europe; Work schedule; Social life; Interdepartmental cooperation; Degree requirements; Enzyme Institute; Post-doctoral vs. graduate students in research work; University Club; Relationship with L&S; Dining clubs; Faculty meetings; Student protest movement.

First Interview Session (February 10, 1982)

Tape 1/Side 1

00:00:01          Background.  Enrolled in Milwaukee Extension in 1925, planning to go on to UW.  Lived at home.  Jake Beuscher there at same time.  Took English, French, math, chemistry.  Reasonably good teaching.

00:05:45	Two floors in an office building.  Labs poorly equipped. 

00:06:40	No social activities.

00:07:33	Describes Madison during his junior year.  Lived first at Adams Hall, then at Tripp.  Experimental College was in other half of Adams.  Considerable friction existed.  CB believes it was not experimental because group was not typical.  Odd balls, talented.  Some had long hair, were accused of not bathing.  Almost got into fights.  All ate in same dining room.  Each house had own table.

00:11:00	Regular students wore jackets at table.  Experimental College students didn't have to.  Generally, they were sloppy.

00:12:15	CB says if there was snobbishness it existed among regulars.  Harry Schuck a house fellow for Experimental College.

00:13:57	CB had worked and saved enough money for three semesters at UW.  In fall of senior year, he was offered a job at Dupont following graduation.  However, he needed a job for second semester.  Meloche told him of an opening with Peterson in Agricultural Chemistry.  That job was taken but Peterson said Steenbock had an even better opening.  He could do course work, but it was a full time job.  Project was a study on toxicity of vitamin D.  In mid-semester Hart offered CB a research assistantship to do graduate work.

00:18:06	Discussion of his salary.

00:19:45	CB wasn't aware of Steenbock's stature when he interviewed for job in 1929. 545   Had to take biology prior to graduate work.

00:22:30	Discusses Steenbock and Hart research projects on feeding animals special diets and testing results.

00:22:55	Interview when hired by Steenbock.  Worked on his project involving Vitamin A and yellow pigments, had been working on it since 1919.  Steenbock began vitamin D work with Hart, made discovery in 1924.

00:26:31	Chemistry Fraternity.  One third membership was graduate students.  Also drawn from agriculture and agricultural engineering.  CB lived there as graduate student.

00:31:12	End of side. 

Tape 1/Side 2

00:31:13	Fraternity founded in Wisconsin by Professor Mathews.

00:32:03	In chemistry department, organic chemistry was outstanding, with Adkins and McElvain.  In physical chemistry Mathews not as highly regarded.  Daniels top physical scientist, then Williams.  Williams was good teacher, but Mathews was not.  Daniels ok.  Kahlenberg was star personality, but not great researcher, opposed theory of electrolytic dissociation.  Was removed as chairman during WWII.  A theatrical lecturer like Snow in physics, Fish in history, Kiekhofer in economics.  Link was one too.

00:36:46	Discusses courses he took.  Took 130 credits compared to 120 required for humanities students.  Found non-chemistry courses easier.  Read O'Neil plays for entertainment.

00:38:50	Students thought Glenn Frank was good.  Realized as graduate student that professors didn't think much of him--at least scientists.  Too glib.  Most ag professors were Midwesterners with modest backgrounds.  He was a contrast with his spats, private rail cars.

00:41:34	CS not involved in Union.  Ate there during summer.

00:42:05	People in chemistry returned to department in evenings to work, as did biochemists.  Biochemists worked from 8 to 4:30 every day, Saturday mornings and stopped in to look after animals on Sunday.  Mentions Hart.  Fewer office hours kept by professors.

00:45:41	Research assistants.  Funds meant for experimental stations used partially for assistants, animal caretakers.  This differed from research assistantships such as Evelyn Steenbock's Squibb fellowship.

00:50:04	Discusses faculty here when CB began in ag chemistry.  Elvehjem was in Europe.  Link was most approachable.  Graduate students saw faculty day-to-day.  Link was an actor, younger than others.  Hart was older, Steenbock's training dated.  W. H. Peterson worked with E.B. Fred.  Tottingham not successful, died following WWII.  Babcock's physics problem not taken seriously, was CB's first lab partner. 

00:57:41	Returning to comments on Link. 

01:02:54	End of tape. 

Tape 2/Side 1

00:00:01	Link's appearance, personality.  Steenbock formal, Hart down-to-earth.

00:04:00	Elvehjem and Waddell were two younger members doing anemia-copper-iron research.  Steenbock other senior researcher.  Hart got patent in own name.  Steenbock thought he wasn't appreciated, led to strains among his peers.  WARF money important, CB discusses other fellowships.  In 1930's biochemistry purchased equipment, but spending escalated in 1944 when Elvehjem became chairman.  Link had better equipment through Brittingham funds. Brief discussion of lunch. 

00:12:50	Steenbock brilliant.  Discussion of how his seminars were run.  Became involved in patent work, WARF affairs.  Not in great health.  His personality.  Deterioration evident by 1936. Could get very angry at students.

00:18:15	Steenbock's feud with McCollum.  Steenbock felt he hadn't given attribution to his work on a project.

00:22:22	Patent granted around 1927.  Steenbock returned to Vitamin D work after WWII, but Vitamin B complex was more important area then.

00:29:40	Steenbock's picnics and parties.  Students never fully at ease with him, not socially-oriented.  More social activity in department today.

00:33:13	End of First Interview Session. 

Second Interview Session (February 11, 1982)

Tape 2/Side 2

00:33:16	Reasons for success of life sciences at UW.  Unusual to have such a large biochemistry department in an ag college, much of which unconnected to agriculture.

00:34:13	In many states federal money was used for experiment stations.  At UW people in ag college were named as members of Wisconsin State Experiment Station, no separate building or institutions.  Federal money used toward ag college salaries.  Teaching demands eased.  Became part-time teaching, part-time research.  Students had access to courses throughout University.

00:38:24	Discusses salaries.

00:41:10	Agriculture received federal money partially due to Babcock.  CB notes that South Dakota was source of outstanding graduate students--Henry Lardy, Van Potter, Robert Burris.

00:43:38	Department inbred, but everyone has taken one or two years elsewhere before teaching here.  Often they went to Europe.  Mentions Steenbock, Peterson, Link and Elvehjem.  Last two had Rockefeller grants.

00:45:30	Discusses value of studying in Europe.  Steenbock went to Heidelberg.  Johns Hopkins was first high caliber postdoctoral research institute in U.S.   Discusses fact that Farrington Daniels had new equipment, Steenbock did not use up to date equipment.  CB discusses interdepartmental research tradition.  Many articles had multiple authors.  Some people looked as though they had done no independent research.  CB feels that there was less rivalry here.  Mentions Noble Clark, fact that there were fewer faculty members here.

00:55:23	Process of degree approval.  Interdepartmental conference system, where no one person had sole authority in granting degree.  This existed until WWII.  

01:00:00	Equipment. CB discusses his study abroad at Heidelberg and at Cambridge.  Much more relaxed in Europe.  Today, biochemistry is more like this.

Tape 3/Side 1

00:00:01	CB had said in preliminary interview that most equipment was ordered from Europe.  This changed in WWII.  Now U.S. exports equipment.

00:01:37	Discusses people who went to Europe. E.B.  Fred formed Enzyme Institute as a place for postdocs to go in U.S. Organic chemistry students usually entered industry.

00:04:40	Later there was an greater exchange among university departments--Illinois, Michigan, Harvard.  But now all people here are department graduates.

00:07:48	Elvehjem's skills as administrator, his capacities as scientist.

00:11:00	Hart made all salary decisions.  By 1930, Steenbock and Elvehjem knew of decisions.  CB's experience in departmental meetings as associate professor in 1941--they dealt with appointments, not salaries.  Hart was chairman until 1944.  CB recalls 1943 meeting in which Hart resigned as chair.  Hart retired in 1945.  During 1930's Elvehjem had assumed many of chairman's duties.

00:16:35	E.B. spoke to Peterson and Steenbock about chairmanship, but it was clear that Elvehjem was logical successor.  Peterson, Steenbock and Link were put on budget committee.

00:18:15	Elvehjem continued as chairman while graduate dean.  Department happy to have him deal with salaries since he had contacts throughout University.

00:20:57	Discusses attitude toward WARF in department.  Seen as fairy godmother.  CB describes WARF lab, which hired biochemists when jobs were scarce, including John Arthur Keenan and Carl Krieger.  Both became heads of WARF board of directors.  WARF fellowships kept Ph.D.s on campus.  

00:25:22	Discusses whether department received special treatment.   Fred as graduate school dean gave funds to departments most able to use them effectively.  Large grant from WARF for returning vets.

00:31:03	End of side. 

Tape 3/Side 2

00:31:06	More on applying for grants.  CB's grant to research in Peru in 1966.  CB was on national committees reviewing grant proposals, became a strain when funds decreased.

00:35:34	In 1960's research professors often had postdocs.  Problem of training new graduate students every four years, this was not necessary with postdocs.

00:38:52	Elvehjem trained many new graduate students.  Al Harper took over when Elvehjem became dean.  Younger people preferred working with postdocs.  Enzyme Institute had postdocs.  Greene never had graduate students, Henry Lardy had a few.  CB believes own work was affected.  Discusses Ph.D. theses.  Each section potentially publishable, each had a chemical problem and problem involving experiment on animal.  Gives examples of research projects.  Often supported by NIH grants, outside fellowships.  CB believes training he did was more significant than research results.

00:46:52	CB might have stayed at McArdle if he hadn't taught Steenbock's course.  Was doing nutritional work, cancer research.

00:49:40	Discusses Graduate School Research Committee.  Had no contact with it.  Comments on arrangement whereby non-scientists examine scientific proposals.  Contrasts this with national committees where members examining research proposals are familiar with field.

00:53:48	Link's vitamin K aspirin proposal.

00:59:22	CB not aware of calf scours controversy related to E.B. Fred.

01:00:30	Link sponsored a Japanese-American student when Japanese-Americans were interned during WWII.  Dykstra opposed this.  This student, Myoshi Ikawa, was very good and was instrumental in synthesis of Warfarin.

01:02:30	End of side.

Tape 4/Side 1

00:00:05	University Club.  Some people at University made non-Letters and Science people feel unwelcome.  CB glad he didn't work with L&S people.  L&S people resentful during Fred years at their lack of representation within administration.  Fred appointed his own people.  Elvehjem appointed Harrington, which gave them representation.  CB had little use for some L&S people, but feels resentment was justified.  Steenbock wanted funds from his patent to go into natural sciences, not physical sciences.  When natural scientists had to share money, they were disturbed.  CB believes word "science" should not be used for soft sciences (including social science).  Social scientists study issues that are important, but CB not sure that results are useful.  His friend, Walter Morton, was also critical of social sciences.  Social scientists tend to have similar political views.  Politics not an issue in hiring practices in biochemistry.  Link was far left, Steenbock far right.

00:10:22	CB belonged to lunch club for a while.  Noble Clark's "our group."  Comprised of scientists, not aware of anyone's feeling excluded.

00:12:40	CB was not on committees.  Few of them were.  Hector DeLuca an exception.

00:15:30	At faculty meetings a few people did all talking.  CB didn't go often.  Attended when divisional matters were discussed.

00:17:41	Little contact with Harrington.  CB liked way he spoke, following Fred's limitations.

00:18:07	Department was affected by protest movement.  Attitude of graduate students was felt.  Most of them weren't involved, too busy.  CB in Peru from 1966-1969, returned in summer of 1968 to teach graduate students.  Some were militant.  Didn't like dealing with these students.

00:21:35	Remembers "day of concern."  Student came to discuss military and corporate-financed research.  CB mentions Elvehjem's research on meat, sponsored by National Meat Foundation.

00:26:03	End of interview.

END