UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #1418
COOK, MARSHALL

COOK, MARSHALL (1944-)
Professor Emeritus of UW-Extension
At UW: 1979-2009

Interviewed: 	March 26, 2015
Interviewer: 	Harv Thompson, Maryo Gard Ewell, Karen Goeschko
Index by: 	Stephen A. Pierce
Length: 	2 hours, 20 minutes

Abstract: In his March 2015 interview with Harv Thompson, Maryo Gard Ewell, and Karen Goeschko, Marshall Cook chronicles the events that led him to the University of Wisconsin-Extension and his work for Extension’s writing programs.  He discussed growing up in California during the 1940s and 50s, early influences on his writing, and the reasons he and his wife decided to move to the Midwest. He also detailed his recollections of a number of key figures in the arts programs of UW-Extension, including Robert Gard, Harv Thompson, and Emily Auerbach.  This interview was conducted in association with the Robert Gard Wisconsin Idea Foundation and the Wisconsin Arts Council for inclusion into the UW-Madison Oral History Program.

Key Words: Altadina CA; polio; Stanford University; creative writing; Vietnam War; Santa Clara University; student protests; 1960s; University of Wisconsin-Extension; Writers’ Institute; Rhinelander School of the Arts; Robert Gard; Laurel York; Emily Auerbach; Odyssey Program.

First Interview Session (March 26, 2015): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:01:25	Question [HT]: Talk about your growing up years. Answer: Cook was born September 1944 and raised in Altadina, CA, which he described as “idyllic” at the time. He talked about being born during World War II and his parents.

00:03:57	Question [HT]: School? Answer: He went to the local elementary school. He talked about an elementary school teacher, a former Army sergeant, who was strict and expected good work from him, which he needed. He remarked that he was “terrified” of school as a very shy kid.

00:05:38	Follow up [ME]: Your parents’ support of education? Answer: They strongly believed in education—his mother’s family had been college graduates and teachers (she’d gone to UCLA), and his father was the first in his poor immigrant family to go to college (through the Naval Academy). He also talked about his maternal grand-parents, who had been a noted writer and Civil War expert (William Beemer) and Stanford graduate (Jean) at a time when this was unusual for women. He talked about how his grandfather had been an inspiration for him.

00:11:07	Question [ME]: There were lots of books in your house? Answer: Less in their house than in his grandparents’: they had magazines and some novels. He developed his love for reading when, after 6th grade, he developed rheumatoid arthritis and rheumatic fever and was bedridden for 9 months. His best friend brought a novel over one day, and after he “devoured” it, his friend brought a steady stream of these Hardy Boy books and he became a life-long reader.

00:14:45	Question [HT]: Junior high? Answer: In the second semester of 7th grade, he was able to go to junior high school; as a painfully shy child, he noted, he used humor as a way of dealing with the shyness. He shared some anecdotes about arriving in junior high, an how he’d signed up for the school newspaper (wanting to be a sports writer). He talked about Mr. Clement, who taught him to be accurate and concise as a writer and who (he discovered) also wore a prosthesis because he only had one leg.

00:19:34	Question [ME]: You liked English classes? Answer: He loved anything that allowed him to read books. This caused him to reflect on one of his “anti-heroes,” a high school literature teacher who taught them grammar for an entire semester because they’d not done well on an entrance grammar exam.

00:20:32	[no question] He talked about attending John Muir High School in Pasadena, a large fully integrated school which had equal numbers of college-bound and prison-bound students. He did well at print shop, but not metal shop, so he was transferred to a typing class, which he discovered he really liked. This was the first thing he could remember really excelling at in school.

00:25:38	[no question] He talked about another “pivotal” teacher in HS, a physically imposing man who was also intellectually demanding, which was good for him. This teacher gave him a copy of Crime and Punishment to read over Christmas break—while it was a challenge for him to get through this book, it changed his perception of himself as having the potential to do more serious writing than just sports.

00:29:07	[no question] He talked about how his father got him a summer construction job, which was hard work but good money.

00:30:33	Question [ME]: You expected to go to college? Answer: He always expected this, and always expected it would be Stanford—he thought this “cheeky,” but there was a legacy of going to Stanford from his grandmother and brother.

00:32:30	[no question] He related going off to college on the train, learning how to drink (after “learning how not to drink”, which led to some interesting experiences.

00:33:32	[no question] He looked back on his university teachers, whom he didn’t appreciate at the time—like his creative writing teacher Malcolm Cowley; Cowley’s colleague John Dos Passos; his advisor Wallace Stegner.

00:37:30	Question [ME]: What did you do with your degree in creative writing? Answer: He applied to graduate school in communications, getting a terminal MA (1967) in print journalism, which he’d always loved. 

00:39:15	[no question] At this great crossroads, knowing he wanted to be a writer (probably a journalist), but also interested in teaching, he started applying to newspapers and community colleges, which he viewed as a service to lower-income people.  

00:41:15	[no question] When a teaching position became available at Santa Clara Univ., he began teaching English. He reflected on teaching, which initially terrified him, but after realizing he was boring himself with over-structured lectures, he began to loosen up and lead more discussions. While no one ever taught him how to teach, he observed, he was given a class, which allowed him to experiment with all the teaching methods he and his cohort were talking about.

00:46:12	[no question] He talked about his anti-war activities at Santa Clara during the Vietnam War (though he missed the drug and free love revolutions of the 1960s), including editing an underground newspaper, speaking at rallies, and staging a demonstration at an ROTC graduation, which got him “non-renewed” at SCU. At the time, his wife was staying at home with their 1 ½ year old son.

00:50:47	[no question] After being released from SCU, he did a “shotgun” application to newspapers, colleges, etc. He interviewed at a number of places, including Solano Community College, in Fairfield CA, where the president offered him the job on the spot after a 20 minute conversation about Zane Grey.

00:55:26	[no question] He talked about teaching at Solano Community College, which was in beautiful wine country. He taught reading, composition, “remedial remedial” English, whose students he told some stories about. One of his mentors there was Ralph Hanson, his department chair. He recalled one pivotal moment when Hanson sat in on his remedial English class, which transformed the rowdy class temporarily into a very organized one so that Cook wouldn’t get into trouble.

00:59:52	[no question] He taught at SCC for 8 years, the last several of which he was union president and then department chair. 

01:01:25	Question [MG]: Why did you leave? Answer: He said that his wife prompted the move, though they agreed that it was time to move on. She had gotten a job at St. Apollinarus in Napa as director of religious education, but Napa was changing and they began applying all over the country for jobs together. His wife then was offered a job doing special education with the diocese of Madison, which was a great place to work. During the interview visit, Cook accompanied his wife and someone suggested he apply to University Extension. He talked about how difficult the decision was when it came down to being offered the position.

01:08:02	[no question] He discussed moving to Madison after flying out for a short trip to look at houses. He expressed the disorientation of moving to a completely new state, driving across country, seeing a tornado near Des Moines IA, and getting used to Madison as his wife began her work. He talked about falling in love with WI.

01:11:27	Question [HT]: UW-Extension? Answer: Transitioning to UW, he first mentioned that his advisor Bill Rivers in graduate school—the best teacher he ever had—was an important part of him getting the job at Extension. At the time, he was acting as househusband, trying to launch his writing career, and in need of a job. Hearing about what UW-Extension was doing, he was really excited to apply.

01:14:26	[no question] He got a job in the communications division of Extension under the supervision of Blake Kellogg. Starting as a half-time program coordinator, he felt from the very beginning that Extension was his place.

01:17:00	[no question] He talked about the work that he did with Extension—writing brochures, arranging local workshops, teaching about writing, etc.  He talked about how this was the time when they could be entrepreneurial with Extension events to the point when he moved to being full time and then tenure track.

01:20:54	[no question] He discussed Kellogg and Art Krival walking him through the process of getting tenure, even though he didn’t have a PhD.  This wonderful first number of years was interrupted by the budget cuts of the mid 1980s and the restructuring of Extension; even then, he noted, his department sought to fulfill what they saw was a mandate to the entire state.

01:24:20	Question [HT]: State wide programs? Answer: Cook talked about the beginnings of the Writers’ Institute under the supervision of Christine DeSmet, who also encouraged them to bring in Elmore Leonard as the first keynote speaker. He explained how this workshop was different from Extension’s School of the Arts. This observation led him to reflect on how much he enjoyed then being invited to teach at Rhinelander School of the Arts.

01:29:39	Question [HT]: It was unusual for staff from different UW-Extension departments to work together? Answer: Very much so then. 

01:30:56	Question [HT]: How did your staff come into your department? Answer: DeSmet started as a publicity coordinator; he was “grieved” that she stayed academic staff with a lower salary and less job security when he became a professor. Follow up [HT]: Kellogg? Answer: He emphasized again how important Kellogg was, and how it was difficult for him after Kellogg retired.

01:33:51	Question [HT]: The expansion after Kellogg’s retirement of your programs? Answer: He talked about new workshops on poetry, publishing, copyright, stress-management, design, how to be interviewed by the press. At that point in its history, he felt that his department “carried” other departments financially at times.  He discussed the reasons for the wild popularity of their “how to be interviewed by the press” workshop.

01:38:52	Question [HT]: Did you grow personally as a teacher and writer during this period? Answer: Yes; knowing that he had to have a “day job,” and that he wanted to teach, he found that his teaching fed his writing and made him excited about writing. He reflected on why Wisconsin had always been a great place for publishers and writers.

01:41:16	Question [HT]: Had you interacted with Bob Gard? Answer: He met him in his office a few times, but he read Gard’s writing and respected his work.

01:42:04	Question [ME]: What do you see the WI idea being? Answer: He talked about how, related to art, it was very democratic, understanding that everyone has stories and can do art rather than just consume it.  He talked about the role of UW in helping Wiscon-sinites to do this, by finding good writers who could communicate and relate to their students and by teaching about creativity. Joining the arts development dept with Thompson, he observed, was a “happy accident” and very productive for everyone.

01:47:05	Question [HT]: Talk about your colleagues—Laurel York and the School of the Arts. Answer: He added Emily Auerbach to the discussion, and talked about how meetings with Laurel, who brought a PhD education with her to the dept, and DeSmet were fun and productive.

01:49:28	Question [ME]: Why does it matter that the “average Joe” be able to write? Answer: He explained that if people didn’t want to write, they didn’t have to—he encouraged people to do what they loved—but for those who wanted to write, they tried to give them the skills to do so, always “honoring the writer’s intention,” not trying to make them tell the story that the teachers would tell. He related how, even if he didn’t publish something, he found writing itself to be a joy; he talked about how he would lose track of time while he was writing.

01:53:02	Question [HT]: Distance education? Answer: He said that he was initially dubious about trying to teach without being face-to-face, but he was interested in creating a “package” course.  Once he put the courses together, though, he realized that writing lent itself to doing this, to the extent that he and DeSmet found themselves over-extended teaching online courses.

01:57:00	Question [HT]: Talk about the impact of School of the Arts. Answer: He first observed that it had a big impact on Rhinelander—the School became a real community, both between the teachers and between groups of students.

01:59:21	Question [HT]: Did the philosophy remain after all these years? Answer: Yes; he observed that crossing over between art forms wasn’t discouraged. Follow up [HT]: Did you find time to write yourself? Answer: Yes; he wrote 6 days a week, always having 2 or 3 projects going.

02:00:40	Follow up [ME]: How would you teach a beginning writing workshop? Answer: He started by using creativity exercises, jumping right into writing and only taking a few minutes each class to lecture. He also emphasized student critiquing each other’s writing, which made it a communal activity.

02:02:31	Question [HT]: How did you develop as a teacher? Answer: Even though he’d had much experience, he still wasn’t comfortable with the Rhinelander experience at first, so he had to continually think about how to structure these classes, not by lecturing.

02:04:08	Question [ME]: You’re still teaching? Answer: Yes; in the Odyssey Program. Follow up [HT]: Auerbach? Answer: He discussed how he got to know Auerbach, who was conceiving and implementing the Odyssey project, a six-unit course in the humanities for people below the poverty line but want a shot at college (for which he served as writing and vocabulary coach). Many of the students are minorities, and the program had created a strong sense of community among students & teachers. He discussed the broad success of the program, crediting Auerbach’s relentless energy for much of it.

02:10:02	Question [ME]: The through-line of UW trying to provide education for people of the state of WI. Answer: Cook responded by talking about how Auerbach envisioned Odyssey eventually as a way of providing free four-year college education for low income families.

02:13:19	Question [HT]: Your retirement? Answer: He knew he wouldn’t be bored, and that he’d keep writing, but he worried when he retired about missing teaching. So he’d continued to teach at Odyssey, but didn’t “hang around” the program. He still put out a newsletter and was happy to be able to spend more time with family.

02:17:14	Question [HT]: How many books have you published? Answer: He’d published 30 books, but was working on new things, like a young adult Christian novel. Question [HT]: How would you like to be remembered? Answer: He was less concerned about this than that others would feel cared for by him.

02:20:25	End of First Interview Session

End of Oral History #1418