UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #1001
HYSLOP, CRYSTAL

HYSLOP, Crystal (1952-)
Relationship with UW: resident in Madison since the late 1970s

Interviewed: 	2009 (2 sessions) 
Interviewer: 	Linda Lenzke
Index by: 	Kelly Rupp
Length: 	2 hours, 8 minutes
Series: 	Madison’s LGBT Community, 1960s to present
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction
LL:	 Hello. Today is June 9. It is 6:10 PM. My name is Linda Lenzke and I'm going to be interviewing Crystal Hyslop. And we are in Crystal's kitchen, which I think is an appropriate place to have an interview like this. So Crystal, thank you for volunteering to participate in this lesbian oral history project. 
00:00:27 
LL:	Why don't you tell me a little bit about your background and growing up, and a little bit about your family history? 
CH: 	OK. Well thank you for giving me this opportunity to have this interview. I'm really excited about the project. I was born February 28, 1952, in Port Huron, Michigan. It's a small town about an hour north of Detroit on the Lake Huron. Interesting town, because we had a bridge to Sarnia, Canada. And a lot of my relatives came to the United States through Canada, so I have a connection over there. Also we still have some relatives that live there. I am the oldest of three children. My sisters are-- the middle one is about three and a half years younger than I, and my baby sister is ten years younger.  My parents were very young when they got married, I think they were 19 and 20. My mom was young when she had me. Right now, I think significantly growing up in small, rural America on a farmland kind of situation, parents were rather isolated. My dad was a blue-collar worker at the Detroit Edison plant. Started out as a coal handler and worked his way up to be a foreman of a nuclear powerplant. But unfortunately, I think some of the situations that have molded me is that mom was your stay-at-home mom that was, in the 1950s, pretty much addicted to Percodan. Dad was an alcoholic. And it then put me in a position, as I think a lot of children at that time, where I had a lot of responsibilities as a young child, pretty much watching and taking care of my sisters. So immediately I was put into a position where responsibility and not failing and suck it up just do it was sort of what I thought you were supposed to behave like, even as a child. Dad unfortunately passed away in 1993 as a result of his alcoholism. We couldn't seem to get him to get any help. So Mom has been alone since then. And you can see where she was very dependent on him, and she's very needy now. The situation is such that she's the last surviving really adult relative in my immediate family. My grandparents are gone, my father's siblings are gone, my mom's brother and sister are gone. We have cousins, but we were never really close in an extended way. So Mom relies on her daughters to pretty much get her through. And she also relies heavily on me, and now I'm like 500 miles away. And the reason I bring that up is because they were not ever accepting of my homosexuality, when I did finally come out. And in fact, Dad passed and we never did resolve that. I mean I think he left this world still thinking it was really a shame and not good. As a child, I don't really identify as being gay as a young kid. But I do know, if I think about it, I always felt really different. There's a picture of me at about four years old in my Davy Crockett jacket. And I just loved that jacket, it was red. And my understanding from hearing stories is to get that away from me as I got older was quite the task. I was labeled the tomboy, I climbed trees, I did all that kind of stuff. But that was sort of-- little girls do that, you know? For Christmas I asked for a football instead of Barbies, and that kind of thing. Our neighborhood was not very many girls to play with, so I did grow up playing with boys, and I felt very comfortable doing that. In fact, sometimes I would even-- I can remember five, six years old going in the bathroom, pretending I could shave. Just doing everything that boys did. But as I grew up and I still felt more of a connection with the boys than the girls, I think my parents started to notice that that was happening, too. They didn't really question anything, but they did things like take away those toys and those things. So by the time I got to high school I really wasn't interested in dating. I still wanted to hang out with the guys, because we grew up together, but I didn't date much. By the time I got into college, my mom was starting to ask. Why-- how you feel about boys? What's the deal? So then I did, I had a few dates, whatever. 
00:05:20 
CH:	I made it to college. Did two years at community college, and then went to Western Michigan University for my final-- to get my bachelor's degree. It is there where I met my husband. He was Hispanic descent, which didn't set well with the family, either. They were very conservative, so my parents weren't happy when I did finally started dating that that's who I chose. It was an interesting relationship to start out. We were very involved in farm worker politics. I worked on the school paper for the college, did a lot of interviewing, set up a lot of boycotts for grapes and lettuce, and all that stuff that was happening in the early '70s. So that was our connection and that's how we met. And we dated, and I never really thought about marriage. I mean, we were just dating. This was just what we did. Unfortunately, I wasn't real up on how to protect myself from not getting pregnant. So that end up happening. And I wasn't-- I had graduated from college. I remember not knowing what was going. In fact, when I went to the doctor found out it was positive pregnancy, I even went to an abortion clinic and sort of talked with them about what am I going to do? I've just started my career, I've graduated from college, I don't know if I'm ready for this. We had never, the father of the child, talked about getting married. That was just not in the horizon. So he was very upset when he found out I was going to keep the child, as were my parents. They sort of kicked me out and said, go deal with it. So I had a little apartment in Kalamazoo, Michigan, and I actually ended up almost demanding, because of all the pressure coming from family and whatever, you're raising this child, you're not getting married, I said to him, right now I can't cope with anything, but you will marry me. And we will have this child, and we will deal with it as it comes. So he reluctantly married. And I remember we got married in his parents' home. My parents came. The child was born. We were actually living at that time in Indiana, and then we moved to Wisconsin. And the marriage was going along and I just was not comfortable. He was never around, he wasn't home, I was sort of a single mom anyway. So I was on my way into saying, I'm just going to get out of this. Well unfortunately, rather than getting into the gory details, he wasn't real happy about all that. And as a result of arguing and whatever, we ended up with a second child. So with two children, I really felt tied down. I really felt like, man this is awful. So this was like, what, 1978 Miranda was born. So by '79 I was up to here. And at that point, I don't know if this is a good place to bring in, but that's when I met Janice. It was at Lysistrata restaurant. 
00:08:34
LL: 	Now Lysistrata brings you to Madison. 
CH: 	Yes. 
LL: 	How did you get from Kalamazoo to Madison? What brought you to Madison? 
CH:	 I went via Indiana with the husband, and then he got a job transfer to Milwaukee and we stayed there for a while. And then another job transfer and came to Madison. So it was always on the heels of, where is this family moving to because of his position-- 
LL: 	And so you were still with your husband when you met Janice? 
CH: 	Yes, I was. Unhappy, talking about-- and I think one of the things-- well, let's not get confusing here. I'd seen an ad in the paper. I wanted to get something going. I was a feminist, I wasn't happy with my life. I saw an ad in the paper for let's fight the equal rights amendment. Let's get that extension going, let's get Wisconsin on the board, let's get the national amendment, whatever. They had a meeting a Lysistrata. And I said, I'm going. I just said, get a babysitter, get out of the house, let's start doing something that you feel strongly about. So it was rather funny, because I thought, well these are probably going to be pretty conservative, I thought maybe of caucus women, so let's not go in jeans and a T-shirt. So I dressed all up. So I showed up at Lysistrata restaurant and I ask where the meeting is, and they said, well it's off to the left there, on the corner. I go in and there's all these wonderful people, really. Long-haired men and beads and hippies and whatnot. And I just stuck out like a sore thumb. So I sat down and I had my first meeting, and I met Janice-- she at that time was the chair. We chatted a little bit afterwards and she got some background and stuff, and she said, well really, come back. So I did. I just kept going back to these meetings. And something just clicked. I mean, something felt so comfortable with her. She, too, was in a relationship at that time. So then as things would be, you start getting a little more intimate in your conversations. And she's like, why are you unhappy? And we kind of discussed the marriage and I wanted out, and she says, well that's fine by me. You know, whatever, I'll help you figure out the process. And you know, you've got the kids and yeah, we'll deal with how that's going to be. And so I started thinking more in terms of all right, I'm going to just be getting a divorce here. Well it was interesting, because what Janice did was start giving me lesbian feminist papers to read, and women's music, and all those kinds of things that I just kind of sat alone, isolated in the dark, listening to and emotionally connecting to these women. And I said, you know what, I can't deny this anymore. You've had these feelings before, even in high school, and you wondered what they were-- the butterflies and whatnot. And it all started to sort of make sense. So Janice and I then, we still weren't really connected. I joined the softball team for-- the Madison Coalition for the ERA had a softball team and I joined that. And I met a lot of other lesbians and I felt just, this is wonderful. I can play sports and it's so accepted. And one evening after a softball practice. We were sitting in the car. I'd given Janice a ride, and something just felt so right and I reached over and took her hand. And it shocked her to death. And then she admitted later on that she was hoping for those moments. So that's pretty much the physical connection that we had, and then it just went from there.  It was a very ugly separation and divorce. He was not at all happy. 
00:12:34 
LL:	 So did you approach it with him like, the marriage is not working, I've not been happy, I want to separate? Or did you approach it of, I've met someone, I want to leave marriage, this isn't the life I want anymore? What was the way that you initiated those discussions with him? 
CH: 	I had had discussions with him about I'm not happy, I think I want a separation. He didn't seem to be too upset about that, because like I say, he was gone on the road. He was out of state a lot. We were just alone, the kids and I. I had written a letter to Janice, and I had just said, I really-- I love you. And it was one of those really mushy love letters, and I don't know why or what was happening here, but I just feel the need to express how I really feel. And I want to know how you feel about this, I know you're in a relationship. And I had hidden it in my drawer in the bedroom. And I had never approached him about any of these things. Number one, knowing the times I really didn't want to lose my kids. So I wasn't about to approach this man that I knew didn't have a good opinion of gay people and was very homophobic himself. So that scared me. I knew he had a temper, and I wasn't willing to bring up things that would bring up safety issues. I was always careful that way. So he found the letter in my drawer and confronted me one day, with you don't want to just get out of this relationship, and then blah blah blah. So that was pretty much how I ended up talking honestly about him, yes, there is this woman. But I tried to make it clear to him, she is not the reason I'm leaving you. We don't have anything here, and I want that very clear. And yes, this is another part of my life, and you've now violated that privacy. But this discussion is not about that. This discussion is about you, and I and we're not working. And I want out. 
LL:	 That took a lot of courage. 
CH: 	Yeah, in hindsight it did. But I really wanted out. 
LL: 	How old were your girls when this happened? 
CH: 	Well let's see, it was 1979 that we met, Janice and I. So that would have been-- Carmen was born in '75. So she was not quite five when Janice and I get together. And Miranda, she was still nursing, actually. She was just a baby. So she would have been, what, a year and a half, or something like that. So it was a very short marriage, and when you think about the time we spent together it was even shorter. And I'm glad that things happened the way they did so I could have gotten out and didn't wait too long to at least end that part of my mind that wasn't working. 
00:15:37
LL:	 Do you want to talk a little bit about how you moved from disengaging and disentangled from your marriage and having the relationship with Janice develop into a commitment, and what your process might have been in coming out to yourself first and then coming out to your family, and sharing all that information? First, you were getting a divorce, second, you were coming out, and third, you were embracing this new person in your life. And then maybe talk a little bit about when the two of you started living together and forming your new family. 
CH:	 What surprises me to this day is that once I made that decision that I really am attracted to Janice physically as well as emotionally, whatever, and I felt comfortable with that, I didn't have any problem saying, I'm a lesbian, there's no question about it, and just moving forward with those plans. Janice, of course, was in a relationship herself, which she wasn't doing well with. And so she also had to dissolve that. In the process of separating and getting together, living together physically, what we did was we were always concerned about the kids. So the children, being so young, didn't really know what was going on. So the arrangement we made was during the day I would stay with them. At that time we lived in a mobile home. And at night I found a job that was like the night shift, so 7:00 to 11:00, 6:00 to midnight, whatever. That's when I worked. And so they had me as mom during the day, and I tucked them into bed, and then I left. And starting out, neither Janice and I had anyplace to go. So for a long time we lived in hotel rooms in town. And we'd just hook up there. She'd come in like 3:00 in the morning or something, to the hotel room. And by 7:00 I had to be up and back at the trailer and she had to go walk to work. But that's sort of until the money ran out and it wasn't fiscally responsible to be doing that. She then told her partner, look, this isn't working. I'm going to be honest with you. I've met someone, and that whole thing. So she bought out her partner. They had a house, actually, together, and they made arrangements for Janice to keep the home. But prior to getting the home, her partner refused to leave the home. Well, we couldn't afford the hotels and we had no place to go. So what we did get is we got permission from her partner at the time that before the closing on the house we could pitch a tent in the backyard. So we did. We pitched a tent in the backyard. And again, I was working nights, so I'd come crawling into the tent when she'd be sleeping, because she would have worked all day. And we'd say hello, kiss, do a little bit, and then just go to sleep. So we didn't really have much of a coming out relationship, so to speak, the two of us. You know, we really didn't have a lot of time. But we just bonded so quickly and so closely, and I can't really explain why. Love at first sight kind of thing? I don't know, but something clicked, and we just weathered the storm. We just worked through all of it. So the kids really didn't know. They didn't see Mommy leave, they didn't feel abandoned. 

00:19:19 
CH:	Then it was a little dicey when we had to physically move them-- because we then ended up with a joint custody arrangement-- physically moving them between two households. And we started out with like a Sunday to Wednesday and then a Wednesday to Sunday, in one of those deals. I would do that differently now. I think that was a little too much moving around for them, especially when he wasn't as committed to child rearing as I was. That was a lot of back and forth. He would sometimes just hire babysitters for them. And that's when I went back to my lawyer and said, what can I do here? So we spent a lot of time with custody issues. I said, I don't want them with a babysitter. I'll have them full time, I'll have them all the time. You give them to us. One of the things we did in the divorce, because it was historically a time when my divorce attorney was Shelley Gaylord, who's now a judge here in town, we wrote up an agreement that the ex-husband signed that said, at no point in time can you ever bring up the lesbianism as an unfit parent issue. Which he did sign. It was sealed and still in my court file today. But that's the kind of environment we were in. So it was scary, always, to go back to my lawyer and say, you know, this isn't working. And even she would say, OK, here are your risks. We can hope to get a different judge. So I never challenged the joint custody situation. Had it been an environment like today I definitely would have. I would've gone for full custody, he could've had visitation. Because it just was terrible having a father, with these kids, who would say, I can't take you to court about it, but your mom's sick. So those things were hard on the children. So for that reason, when I decided to partner up with Janice, I remember we were sitting. I had broken my arm playing ball. I'd fallen, busted my arm. We were sitting at the capitol, on the lawn. And I had a cast on my arm, and we're just kind of sitting there. And I said, you know, if you're going to make this commitment, you have to know it's a package deal. The kids are coming with me. And we're going to have them 100% time, we're going to have them 80% time, I can't tell you how much time we're going to have them. And I know you've never talked about having children yourself. So why don't we have that discussion now before I get the U-Haul. And she said, I have to think about that. So she did. She took a couple of days and processed what is she doing. She's got in toddler who's barely done nursing, she's got a four-year-old that's going to be five, and she's rearing to go. And she's never really taken care of children, and these kids are going to be with us. 
LL:	 It's a package deal. 
CH:	 It's a package deal. She called me and says, you know, I think I can do it. I said, well good. I'm happy with that. So from that day on the commitment we made to ourselves was pretty solid. And we knew the road we had to go, and what we didn't have. And so we knew it was going to be important that we were supportive of each other. But one of the things we've always said was no matter how rough it gets, we are out. We are out lesbians. We saw too many couples who tried to keep that a secret, and it just didn't work. The children felt like, if it isn't OK to talk about, then how come it's OK? So our kids from the get-go had to deal with the fact that they had lesbian moms. So never did we tell them that you couldn't in your own way explain to your friends what this is about. But you could never lie. OK, so if you'd rather just not get into that then you don't have to. You don't have to bring them home, you don't have to deal with this. But we thought it was very important for them, and a healthy-- and I really believe that we made the right decision. And as a family we would deal with the heartaches and the discrimination and the kids that came, stayed overnight, the parents found out what they were doing, and were never able to come back. But to this day our children say, thank you for being up front, and we dealt with it. It was was difficult, it was sad. 
00:24:10 
CH:	And Janice and I, with our own families, coming out, we lived for a couple of years, really, just not talking about it. But when we'd invite our parents they could see that we had one bed, or whatever. And it was almost like we didn't know how to approach them. We had enough on our plate with the kids and the ex and all of that. So we sort of thought, well if they're not going to bring it up, we're not lying. They can see it, they can ask us, we'll talk. But we're not going there right now. We got an offer to be on the Sally Jesse Raphael show. And so at that point I said to Janice, if we commit to that, we've got to tell our parents. They can't see us on TV, or they can't hear about it on TV. So that's when we decided. And Janice sat her mother down and told her that whether you've picked up on it or not, this is how we are. Well once you say it, then they don't like it. They were all comfortable with the don't ask don't tell. My family, I had written a letter to both of my sisters. And my middle sister was just fine with it. She's to this day a social worker. So she was OK with social change. My baby sister, man, she's very, very, very conservative. So it upset her terribly. So I had scheduled-- I wanted them to know I'm coming home for a visit. Bringing the kids, bringing Janice, and we're going to sit Mom and Dad down and we're going to tell them. But I want you to know upfront what we're going to be talking about. Well dang it if my sister didn't go and give them that letter. So that when we got there-- she didn't even tell me she did it. So we get there and my parents are really cold and standoffish, and what is this about? And so I still went ahead with the plan. And before I said Dad and Mom, I need to talk to you. And I sit them down, and before you know it my dad says, I know what this about and I'm not talking about it. It's sick. And end of story. So I didn't really get an opportunity with them to really go over it. My mom to this day will sometimes even call me and say, you know, I don't have a problem with any of it except that why do you have to be so public? Why do you have to-- and it's like, Mom, what is this about? What you think people are going to think about you, or-- this is me. This is your daughter. This is the person that you went to when Dad wasn't competent enough to help you. When you had no problem. I'm not any different now. The strengths that you drew upon at that time are here for you. But I am not going to ever be a secret. I'm not ever going to be a lie, I'm not ever going to be not true to myself. So I don't know what that means. I don't want to alienate you, and I don't want to, certainly, not be with you or not have family connection. I think it's important. But this is something we're just going to have to work through. Well, we're still working through it. My sisters are now just fine. I mean, it's great. Janice's family is a little different. None of them really like it. 
LL: 	Still to this day they don't accept it? 
CH: 	Till this day, no. And what makes it really hard is her mom is now living in Oakwoods nursing home. And she came here and moved from Minnesota I think about, it's almost 10 years now. And she gradually moved from independent living to the nursing home. She segued in, broke her hip, never rehabbed back. It's unfortunate that she doesn't accept the situation, because Janice really needs me to help her with her mom. Her mom's a real needy person also. But right now in order to keep the peace-- her mom will just do things to try to get us fighting, whatever. And so I have to sort of keep my distance. I can't really be with them. So right now it's a real, again another stressful time. Well, the Sandwich Generation. The kids are gone, they're out, they've got their career, they're wonderful. And now we've got Mom, who's doing her darnedest, I think, to just make me go away so she's got full attention from Janice, and trying to get her at 86 to understand that after 29 years it's not going away, Mom. And really you could benefit from both of us helping. And why is it-- why can't you just be comfortable? At Oakwood Village, she's never, ever experienced any problem because her daughter and her partner are coming in. I mean the staff just is very friendly, and they're all great, and they ask about us and they want to know about the kids and they want to know this and that. And Jean aren't you lucky, these girls take good care of you. You just don't know why parents just-- some of them just don't want to let go of it. 
LL:	 And often it's their issue about their guilt or their failure, in their view, that they may have not done something correct. I mean, one of the themes that I hear in your story is that you and Janice and the girls made a commitment to be a family, and that's the difference between choosing to be a family and just being born into a family. Even your daughters, who were born into your life, and we'll talk a little bit more about that, they also chose to be members of a family with you Janice. That's part of what makes your story so remarkable. I want to backtrack to just a little detail, only because I think people might be interested. Did you go on the Sally Jesse Raphael show? 
CH:	 No we did not. Afterwards they did their screenings and they cut, and they did-- I can't remember who it was? Was it Alex and Martha, maybe? 
LL:	 And that's Martha [? Pop ?] and Alex [? Olsen, ?] 
CH:	 Yeah, and I think-- 

LL:	 Who are very out in the community, and hopefully will be interviewed as well for this project. 
CH:	I would hope so, yes. But I think, no, we were cut from the initial group. 
LL:	 Well, once again, that's a very courageous decision on your part to have your coming out to your family be in preparation for the Sally Jesse Raphael show. That certainly reflects the times. Because I know all of those shows, Sally Jessie Raphael, and Phil Donahue, and Geraldo, and many of those talk shows were featuring-- and even Oprah at the very beginning-- were featuring stories about lesbians and gays coming out and forming families. And it was a time of consciousness raising on many levels. 
CH:	 Definitely. 
LL:	 Including about the new lesbian and gay families. 
00:31:19 
LL:	Well talk a little bit more about what your life was like in a community. Madison during that period of time. You talked a little bit about your involvement with was Lysistrata and a little bit about your involvement with the Equal Rights Amendment and the Coalition for the Equal Rights. Do you want to talk a little bit more about now that your family-- and you're living in Madison, and you've made a commitment again to being politically active. How did that affect your family and involve your children? What roles did Janice and you both play in some of those organizations? Do you want to talk a little bit about being a lesbian family in the '80s and early '90s in Madison? 
CH:	 One of the interesting things, we realized that the kids were going to need a safe place. So we had heard about the Lesbian Parent Network, and so we hooked up with some families that we knew about and went to some of the potlucks. And it was just wonderful, because at that time our kids, all of the children, could just relax. They didn't have to talk about having two moms. So they could just go off and we'd always have toys and stuff in another room. And then the moms and the co-moms would sort of sit down and talk about how are we getting through our days. How are we dealing. And mainly it was about the out moms versus the moms that were still not comfortable publicly being out. And that was just a wonderful experience, to kind of talk with other people, and how did you do this and how do you deal with things that work, and what do you say? And I think another thing that came out of it is how do we, as biological moms, was a term that we used, and how do the co-moms, which is one of the terms we were more comfortable with, we all seem to want to be moms. And not, this is mom and Janice. But we had Mom, and sometimes they'd call her Janice Mom, or they would just call her Mom. And so you would, when your back was to the kids you both had to turn around. But that was fine. Mom's mom. But I always said that having children, in my mind, did not make this magical motherhood connection that I'm the only one that can raise them. That was a big topic of discussion at the lesbian parenting meetings. Because some moms did think that they needed to be the sole disciplinarians, the sole caretakers, and that the partners were their partner, and then there were the children over here. And if they wanted to take them on an outing, or if they wanted to take them to a movie, that was fine. But no way are you going to have real child rearing opportunities with my kids. Well I didn't want that. I knew I have short patience, Janice is excellent with children. When she could see me getting impatient and tired and had the kids up to here, she'd just take them out in the backyard, fill up the swimming pool, get the bubble out. They just had the best of two worlds, I think. Because I had a short fuse and sometimes just wanted to read a book and didn't want to talk to the four-year-old, and Janice never seemed to be that impatient. So we always just disciplined together. We did it like a mom and dad would do it in a traditional setting. We always said never do you say anything to the kids that you haven't talked to me about. We have to be on the same page. Don't let them divide and conquer. And they did. They knew where my soft spot was, and they knew where Janice's soft spot was. And so you'd have the same shenanigans going on, like I talked to Janice and she said it was OK. And I'm going, I don't know, I need to check. That doesn't sound like that's going to be OK. And then it's interesting how the children developed their own relationships. I believe Miranda is much more connected and comfortable with Janice. And the older one really has this thing about Mommy, and to this day she's still a little bit more interested in what I'm going to think of her than what the other one is going to. So I really believe that we took this on as a committed couple and raised these children. And I think because they've aligned themselves with wherever they felt comfortable, they've made relationships just like any traditional family would make. Lots of kids are closer to dad than they are to mom, or vice versa. But that was a hard topic with the Lesbian Parenting Network that sometimes led to tears and serious soul searching. I know one time they split off, the co-moms, and they had their own little meeting. And some of them liked that. Some of them, honestly, just didn't want to be parents. They just wanted the relationship with the mom, and that was fine. Janice wasn't comfortable in that group, and she didn't stay very long. She came back and said, you know, I'm a mom. And I don't have the same philosophy that they have about what to do with the kids. It isn't 50/50, it isn't 70/80, it's 100/100. And when you're tired I'll deal with it, and when I'm tired you deal with it, and that's just how it is. So that was one of the organizations that we were really involved in right through the formative years of the children. And that group changed as time went on. It was nice to see it develop where more and more moms were coming out. And it was a really interesting process to see the families change, where they started out with most people had been married, divorced, and had children and brought them to the relationships. And as we moved through our relationship we saw families start to form where they decided, well we want children. And we will adopt children, we'll have children. And they found ways to now where that's just how it is. Women are together for years and they decide they want to have children, and they figure out a way to do that. And it's just becoming more and more just a natural process for same-sex couples, men and women, to decide that they want children or they don't want children. And they're not bringing them there because they were married and had them in traditional relationships, they seriously want to make a family and sometimes that includes children. Which I think is just wonderful. 

00:38:45
CH:	 So what we did there meant that we also worked in the schools. We were constantly-- we started out the kids in Montessori school and then later to Wingra. That got a little too expensive after a while, to pay that tuition, so they ended up in public school when they were both still in elementary school. What we did as Janice and I, is when the children enrolled in public school, what we did is we went in as a couple and said, we are two moms, which was at that time-- mid 80s, early 80s-- a new experience for them. But we said, no, we want you to send home not just to the parent over there, the father and to me, but you send it to us, the moms, and you send it there. So we started to-- before there was even a real movement to change the schools, we sat down and said, how do we want the schools to treat us and what do we want for our kids? Because they've got to be able to feel comfortable if they get to talk about their families. We want them to feel comfortable doing that. I'll never forget when Miranda came home from school, I think she was in second grade, and her teacher had told her that she couldn't make two Mother's Day cards, she had to choose. And she came home and came to me, and said, I don't know what to do. And I said, not to worry about it. You make one at school, and when you come home we'll make another one, and you can give them to us. And I'll keep it a secret and Janice-- of course I did go and tell Janice about her dilemma. But I wanted Miranda to know that it was OK to make those cards, and unfortunately right now there wasn't a real way for her, with no power, to tell that teacher, I don't care, I'm making two. But you can bet your bottom dollar that the day after I heard that, that teacher got a visit from me at school. And I said, never in my wildest dreams did I think any teacher would be able to tell a small child-- your politics aside, this child has two mothers, and she wanted to make two Mother's Day cards. Please explain to me what that does to you. Do you tell the children who have a grandma raising them and an aunt raising them and they're divorced and they got a stepmother, they can only make one Mother's Day card? Explain to me where this is coming from. Because I know a lot of kids that don't have two moms like we do, like Miranda does, but they actually have two moms that are in married relationships. I'm sure they get to make each one of their moms a Mother's Day card. Well the teacher didn't know what to say. And I just said, I don't ever want to hear my child coming home with a story like this again. So after that, that step made you braver and braver. And the idea was to stay respectful but to confront them at all times. One of the things we used to do is go together at parent-teachers conferences. And one time the teacher wasn't sure who was the biological mom and who was whatever, because we just went and said, you know, I'm Crystal and I'm Janice, no last names. And the teacher, I think, just sort of eye contact with Janice. And just said, blah blah blah, just ran the meeting and just treated her like the mom, and would kind of sometimes look over at me like, yeah, you're here, too. When we got all done, Janice was very uncomfortable with that. She says, why didn't you say something? And I said, why does it matter? We were getting the information, she decided that she bonded with you better, so be it. Well, I think that's a little deceptive. She really should know. I said, why? What does it matter? They've got the papers they need, if push comes to shove if there's an emergency room visit, of course I'll step up to the plate. But right now I think it's rather funny that people make these assumptions. And she had no idea who was who, and she never, on that day, anyway, she never did. Later on it was kind of fun to watch them go, oh my. Because they catch themselves and they realize, well I though she was the mom. If you look at the children it's kind of funny. Because they're not certainly going on looks. Because our daughters do not look anything like Janice, and yet for whatever reasons they connected with her, and it was OK that she was the mom. And I was sometimes slighted, but it was just funny.  So we worked in the schools. 
00:43:47
LL:	 Do you want to talk a little bit about the organizations that you worked with? I mean it sounds like you began this process of educating the educators, but then it sounds like you created coalitions and began collaborating with the educators. And I know that there were organizations that grew out of the schools here in Madison that supported gay and lesbian families and children. Do you want to talk a little bit about those organizations? 
CH:	 Yeah, I do. I think the first organization was in 1983. The Madison Institute for Social Legislation that Janice and I were members of. And that group was, the main point of having it was we were trying to get through the Alternative Family Ordinance, which did pass eventually in 1990. So that was a collaboration of lots of political leaders, liberal, more left of the center kinds of people. For instance, Mary Kay Baum at that time was on it. And I'm blanking on what role she was playing at that time in the community, but she was in an organization. So it was a collaboration of all sorts of like-minded people saying, it's time for our families. And straight families as well as same-sex families were supportive of this. And we worked towards getting that ordinance passed. When it passed in 1990 Janice and I were not able to sign on to the Domestic Partner Registry, because we weren't city residents. We were living in the town of Madison at that time. So I don't believe we were able to sign it until about 1993, when we moved here into the city limits. But from the get-go we knew that it was laws and legislation and these kinds of things that were going to progress our families to the level of acknowledgement and recognition and respect that they needed. So we-- I think we're just political people to begin with, Janice and I, and so that's sort of where we were drawn. We worked with the united on issues. In like 1985, in fact, we were Girl Scout leaders. And it's interesting, to this day we have kids that we had in Scouts come up to us and say it was the most wonderful time. They're graduating from college now, or they're getting their doctorate degrees and whatnot. It's just wonderful to see these young women grow into strong-- But that was a very, very interesting time. Because we were allowed to be Girl Scout leaders, and the parents started out not too-- OK, this will be fine. You could tell they had reservations, but they watched us very closely. And then, I'm telling you, the groups that we had, these girls were a challenge. I mean, they just exhausted us with running around and whatever. And after a year, year and a half, two years maybe, we just said, we're done. We can't do this anymore. Somebody else step up to the plate. And it was really sort of heartwarming when we got calls from parents saying, you can't do that. You can't do that, nobody else wants that job. Would you please stay? So again, it was just a nice transition and a nice acceptance from these families who got over whatever was that made them comfortable. And they saw that their kids were thriving, they were having a wonderful time, we took them on safe outings, nothing ever scared them about why they were around us. And they wanted us to continue, because it was a great opportunity for them to have their kids in an organization, and they didn't have to deal with it. So then around 1993 we formed an organization here called Gays, Lesbians, and Allies for Diversity in Education, GLADE. We had gone to-- I can't really remember why it-- I think we just heard about it nationally, there was a group. So we formed a little group here in our living room, and we started to actually lobby legislators, lobby the schools for changes. Wanting to have Heather Has Two Mommies in the libraries at the schools, all those kinds of things that grew out of more and more families forming, kids in school, wanting them safe. So it was from a safety issue. So we work with that until around 1996. We all went to Chicago to a meeting, and there was at that time the Gay Lesbian Straight Education Network nationally had a meeting in Chicago. And so the members of GLADE had gone. And it was just great to know that there was a national organization. So then we came back here, and eventually GLADE fell out of the picture and GLSEN became the educational network. One of the things that came out of working with GLSEN that Janice and I participated in was in 1996 they had the Love Makes a Family exhibit come to Hawthorne School. And that was very, very controversial. They didn't want to show the pictures. The teachers didn't quite know how to handle it. They were very surprised that the parents were so adverse to this. We had several community meetings at Hawthorne School about how are we going to do this. And that was really emotional. Because people on the other side, the opposition, didn't have any problem saying exactly how they felt about our families, in no way. And I don't know if you ever saw them, but those pictures are just so charming of all sorts of families, and you can just see the love and the connection. The children are so comfortable, and if anything they just look so safe with these adults that are raising them. So eventually we did get the exhibit through, and I think it's been around a couple of times. I think it even showed up once later on in the capitol as an exhibit. And then one of the things that we were really proud of that we just sort of, the two of us, said, this has to happen, is in the fall of 2006 there was a documentary, It's Elementary, about kids in the schools. And the Hawthorne teachers were, I believe, interviewed for that, too. And then we had that premiere out at the Barrymore in 2006. We didn't get to go to that premiere because we were off on a cruise. We had set it up and had that, so we weren't there. But our daughters were there to help with the opening and everything. And everything went really fine, and it was just a great event. 
00:50:52
LL:	 Can I stop you for a minute? I'd like to talk a little bit, or have you talk a little bit, about your daughters' development and acceptance, and the changes that they went through. Because it's very clear that you and Janice were very strongly committed to creating safety for your family and for your girls, and that you advocated for them by doing lots of things. By becoming Girl Scout leaders and by talking to their teachers and by just the way that you educated their teachers about your role. How did the girls-- I mean sometimes there's times when children kind of want to distance themselves from their family. You know, Mom, you do dumb things. Or kids say things that they want to identify with their peer group. How did they go through that period of time, and what was their involvement as you and Janice became very politically active as a lesbian family? 
CH:	 Well when the children were little it was a lot easier. Because what they had and what they grew up with was their family. But it's true, as they got older and as we were more and more out, I can remember one time we were sitting around the breakfast table. And we were constantly being interviewed in the newspapers. And as the children were little, we never had their picture with us. So Janice and I would be on the front page of the paper, or we'd be interviewed or we'd be whatever. And one day, Miranda, the younger one, wanted to take an article to school for show and tell. And all of the sudden, first time we'd ever heard it, Carmen said, you will not be taking that to school. We go to the same school and we're not talking about that. So then we realized, oh, we need to connect with Carmen. What is going on? Well one of the things that sort of breaks our heart is the children, all through their lives, protected us as much as we protected them. And so she finally had the courage to say, well, kids are making fun of me. And we didn't know a thing. She'd come home, nothing. So we then had to explore that with her. Well how are you dealing with this? What are you doing? That's not something you keep a secret. Well I can handle it, I can deal with it. I can whatever. But that was the first time that we realized, OK, we've forgotten something. We've forgotten the fact that these kids, as they grow up, will be bullied, will be teased. It isn't all paradise. It may be here, and it may be at the lesbian mom potlucks, and it may be where we take our children safely. Because we did protect where we took them and when we were out and stuff. We would take them like to the Take Back The Night march. So they saw marching, and they saw whatever. They helped us poster for politicking for the ERA. I can remember Carmen being in the backseat and saying one day, when I grew up do I have to poster? So we included them there, but it's absolutely true that when it came to the gay and lesbian issues, we were a little gun shy sometimes. All right, where do we take the children? How public do we make it? You have to realize it's not safe. I mean, these kids can get hurt. So with that being said, as Miranda got a little older we found out through some friends that came over to the house one day, they said something to Janice like, oh and so this is your housekeeper. And we found out that Miranda didn't want to deal with explaining all the time about the two moms, so she said Janice was the maid. Well we had to sit her down and say, I understand what you're doing, but Janice is not the maid. Janice can be Mommy's friend, Janice can be whatever you want, but no, she's not the maid. But to that day we chuckle about that. Because that was-- it's just interesting what they came up with on their own that they knew the kids would accept. And a lot of kids that they went to school with had housekeepers and maids and whatever. So she thought, well this is a convenient fill-in here. She's the maid. But as they got older and older, they took it upon themselves and they aligned with us. And I think because we had open discussion and we had lots of disclosure, and we realize that there might be times as teenagers where you don't want to be that open about what's going on, make your friends get connected, get established. We have no problem with that. When you feel comfortable telling people more and more, it's on your comfort zone that you operate from. I do know that they both sort of dealt with that differently. Carmen, the oldest one, was your high school kid or your middle school child that would just jump in and say, I want to be your friend but you need to know I have two moms. And so she wanted it right out there. So you don't hurt me, I'm going to tell you what it is that might make you uncomfortable. When she saw-- they would then either go away or say that's cool. And some of them even said, I got two moms, too. So that was happening. Miranda was a little bit more reserved, in that she would wait, make her friends, and then tell them gradually. And then you could see-- she had a really small group of tight friends, and all of them were just very accepting. And they came from all very alternative lives themselves. She seemed to connect better with that. It was interesting when they grew up, we lived on the south side for years, and that's where they spent most of their childhood. And as we were raising them, I remember one Christmas they asked for a dollhouse. And Janice and I went to Toys R Us. And I don't know what we were thinking, but I said, if we get them a dollhouse, they need to have a dollhouse like our house. So Janice was the lookout and I punched a hole in the dollhouse packaging, and I pulled out the mom from the one and then the dad from the other, and put two moms in the one that we bought. So that's the dollhouse that the children got when they were in elementary school or whatever. So they were just perfectly comfortable. Get this dollhouse, and they've got two moms, and they were fine. They used to play homeless single moms in the backyard. Because they grew up south side of Madison with lots of different ethnic groups and a lot of people on food stamps. And they sure knew we didn't have a lot of money. So it was just interesting to see them play games and grow up depending on what their environment was like. 
00:58:20 
CH:	As they got into high school it was comforting to know that they would never really align themselves totally with us, as far as separatists go. They wanted men in their lives. They stayed connected with their father as long as they could. They made their own decisions on when they didn't want that connection. So sometimes we would have interesting feminist discussions, because they would sometimes jump on us and say, oh you just don't agree with that because you don't like men. So we'd have to go back and educate them. As they're older now and their 30s, oftentimes they're educating us on other issues. But they have grown into very accepting, tolerant adult women. Which I think, even in discussions we've had with other lesbian parents, this is our goal. It's to get our kids not just comfortable with gays, but open and tolerant of all people, and that civil rights are important. So that was one of the goals in raising the children, that we wanted to branch out from in the beginning Janice and I were very just, we want women and women only. And that had to change as the children got older, because we realized, no, their world may be women only, or their world may include men. Or they may grow up and say, I didn't like any of that and they're gone. Because we were never going to control how they felt about being with us. I think comfortably, I think I can honestly say that they didn't have a problem, ever. With the challenges that they faced, the things that they had to confront as early on as elementary school, it didn't harm them. It didn't make them suffer. It didn't inhibit their emotional development. I mean, none of that stuff. I know it didn't. I think it made Janice and I crazy, because we were constantly worried about their emotional development and who are they going to be, and are we making them gay? You have to admit it comes up, because it's so ingrained in you to think about that. And they remind us now that, no, just let go of it. We grew up in a wonderful place. We had lots of fun. We had young, inexperienced mothers that did things that for us were very fun. And we look back and go, oh my gosh, what were we thinking? We could've hurt those kids when we took them to Devil's Lake, walking on the cliffs when they were barely able to step up, because they were going to be hikers. 
01:01:18
LL:	 One of the things I'd like to ask you that impresses me about your story is that you were able to impart the kind of love and commitment, both you and Janice, to your daughters that clearly love does make a family, and your evidence of that. And yet there are those other issues of your family of origin, for each of you, and the girls' father, and you referenced how that relationship changed over time with them. The other part that I'm interested in is many couples, regardless of whether they're heterosexual or lesbian or gay, have a difficult time staying together, especially when there's children. Those are the most challenging families and relationships. Do you want to talk a little bit about what made not only your family successful, because very clearly you were very successful as a family, but I'm also very impressed on how you and Janice were successful as a partnership, as people who clearly loved each other and were committed to each other. 
CH: 	Yeah, and really and truly it wasn't all roses. I mean, we had our-- we are very different people. We deal very differently on many different fronts. I'm more of a keep it to yourself and then when it gets too much you're going to hear it all. Janice wants immediate-- she's very-- needs to talk things out. She just can't-- she is who she is. You will know immediately by the look on her face where she's coming from. She either likes it, she doesn't like it, whatever. So in that relationship I had to learn, because I think-- and I'm still learning. I'm still learning how to share feelings, how to be honest if I don't want to do something. I think a lot of times when we did have problems, it would be I didn't say no I don't want to. I'd just go along. Of course that doesn't work, because somebody's get not getting what they want. So we had the typical relationship issues, I think, that any couple when they're getting to know each other. But on top of that, yes, we didn't have support, except for, again, our extended family. That's why it was so important to stay connected to the moms groups and like-minded people. And I think even just preparing for this interview, I realized because we were political, if I look at our friendship circle it stayed in the politicking. Because we didn't have time to do much more than work on those movements and raise our children. So our friends developed also from that group. I can think of probably 20 times we were both going to walk out that door. We were saying, forget it. I'm not dealing with your family anymore. I'm not dealing with these kids. Because believe me, the kids challenged us, too. They tried to win favors from one or the other, the push me, pull you. Our oldest daughter, we still look at her and say, Carmen, fact or fiction? I mean, she can stretch the truth like the best of them. And it caused stress, especially in the teenage years when she for some reason just didn't like the way Janice was dealing with her. And so she would come to me and say, you need to fix this. And I was the fixer. So when Janice would say no, this is it, bottom line, she doesn't get to do something, or she was disrespectful and I've dealt with it, please don't interfere. We need to work on our relationship, Carmen and I. I would, behind the scenes, sometimes go in and say all right Carmen. Really, you're making this harder than it has to be. I know how Janice is, I know how she can be, that kind of thing. Eventually that just got in the way, my trying to fix it. That Janice and I just came to-- blew up. And she sat me down and said, look, this is no different than any other parent trying to make a relationship with a teenager. And I want you out of it. I want you to leave me alone. And we will either end up liking each other or end up hating each other. But she's a teenager, and I need to have her respect what I'm asking her to do, to just like she does for you. So in the early years as the children were growing up, the arguments and the difficulties and the way I think I wasn't dealing properly, yeah, we came really close. I remember one time when I did leave. It was in 1998. It was after her-- the kids were pretty much out of the house. They were one of these leave, come back, leave, come back, because they didn't have money or whatever. So we sort of started to get to know each other. Because when we started out in the relationship we had the kids. We didn't have that honeymoon of getting to know each other. We just jumped into this relationship with children, which I think was problematic. It would have been a lot nicer to get to know each other and then move this way, but we didn't have a choice. The kids leave, you do have the empty nest thing. Now what do we do with our time? We've been political, we've done this, we've done that. OK, what do you want to do? Well, I want to go play golf. Well, I don't like to play golf. I would like to go play tennis. So those kinds of things. But then her mom got ill. And she had a bypass surgery and all that kind of stuff. And I must admit that I felt really neglected. She just sort of ran off and stayed with her mom, and took care of her like she should, and I felt slighted. I felt like, wait a second, where's your priority? I know she's sick, but your brother's there in town. Why can't you come back? That was a hard time for us, because I think I wasn't understanding, nor do I think Janice understood, exactly what was happening with her and her mom. She was developing a new relationship with an aging mother. They had always been on the outs, and I think she wanted to make sure that what happened to me with my dad didn't happen with her and her mom. And she didn't know at the time, with the surgery and the heart condition, how long she was going to be with us. She has since lived on very long and given us her own grief for other reasons. But I remember I just thought well this just isn't working. I'm not getting what I need. She's not here for me. So I did, I left for a few days. And I had a lot of time to think about, what are you doing? Because by then we were already 20 years into the relationship. I got a phone call from Miranda. She said, I don't understand what you're doing. This is my family. You can't just walk out on us. And I heard what she said, you can't just walk out on us. So she saw me as the bad guy. Not biological mom, I'm going to side with you. She felt that I was betraying Janice, and she was calling me on the carpet and saying, you need to get in the car. At that time I didn't have the car. I actually got on the bus and went to Milwaukee. You get your bus ticket and you get back and we can talk about things. But you're not just walking out on us. And that's what I realized that the commitment that we had made was so strong. Because I really, I was just floundering. I didn't know what to do. One of the things I know that weighed really heavily on us, and it's getting easier now, I think it's just because we're old, but the community-- believe it or not, and I think they did it to more than one set of couples. But there were only so many of us who were out. And it was like, you can't fail. Because if you fail then the movement fails. So you've got to stick it out. They just didn't believe we ever had problems. We were like, oh no, Crystal and Janice, ask them. Because they know how to make it work. Well come over here some night when we're screaming like banshees and tell me if you think we know how to make it work. I believe some of that probably helped us stay together, because we're just these crazy overachievers that say, OK, the expectation from this couple. They're floundering. We can't fail, because that's what's going to keep them going, is to see that we can be successful. We're not just fly-by- the-night lesbians that have 16 partners in two weeks, you know, the whole stereotype. We are a committed family, and damn it, we're going to show them. So that kept us in check sometimes, like, all right, what are we doing here? Do we really want to break up? But that one moment when I left and came back, I had time to think about my commitment to her, and that it is bad times, more so than good. It's the bad times when you suck it up. So it took a long time then to get the trust back. I had met someone else and was contemplating what am I going to do about that. So there was a trust issue then. She never thought that I would ever-- I mean, she never talked about anyone else, and that's sort of how it was just almost an accepted thing. And lo and behold if this didn't take this other road, Janice is the only woman I've ever been with. So that was something that was interesting in my own development, was she'd had other women. I never did. What's that like? I'm attracted to other women, I'm not going to deny that. And so you do-- I guess I got that little roving eye. And that, you know, gee, I can get kind of excited about her or him, or whatever. So that was, again, just another aspect of the relationship where we sat down and she said, no, it's going to take time but we can work through this. I really do want to-- we seriously had a discussion, are we going to work on this? The kids are gone, we've got nothing keeping us here. We've both got careers and jobs, and you can survive on your own, and blah blah blah. But what do we want to do? And we cried it out, and we said no. 
01:12:30 
LL:	 One of the things that impresses me, a theme in your story throughout is your conscious decisions, the choice making. Becoming a family, advocating for your children, this decision to come home and make it work. You just referenced careers, and we haven't talked about your work life. I mean, there're many spheres in your life. There's Crystal the daughter, there's Crystal the person, there's Crystal the partner, there's Crystals the mom, there's Crystals the friend, there's Crystal the activist. Do you want to talk a little bit about work and how out you were at work, or if it was different in that environment? And a little bit how work fit into your life. 
CH:	 We were never not out in anything we did. So when we were at work we had pictures of our families on the desk. If it was needed to get discussed, it did. I eventually became a paralegal. That was another interesting thing about our relationship, was Janice finished up her undergraduate degree and got her master's while we were raising the kids. She started out as a cook at Edgewood and ended up getting her journalism degree, and then now is working for the university. So those were interesting times, because we had to also, both of us-- I decided to become a paralegal so I went back to school. And we had homework when the kids had homework. And that's kind of how we organized it. We sat down at the kitchen table and no you're not done, and yeah we can help you with your math, but I have to read this. So that was something we did as a family, too. Just education was important. But we also wanted to have careers. We didn't want to just wash dishes all our lives. And prior to getting with Janice, I didn't work. I mean I stayed at home and raised the kids as babies and didn't have a career. I had a college education. I was a journalism major and sociology minor and was always interested in politics. We didn't really have the money. I think I probably would have gone to law school if we'd had the money, but I didn't. And I saw this wonderful correspondence course I could take, and they taught classes for paralegal studies with local lawyers at Edgewood College. So I'd go at night, and it was like a year and a half program, and I got certified. And then just sort of hit the pavement with resumes and did some odd jobs on different projects for law firms. And I was eventually hired at a federally funded legal services program, Legal Action. So that was my first legal job. I worked there until '98. And then things weren't going well as far as funding for that program, and I had applied with the state at the attorney general's office, which is where I'm at now doing criminal work as a paralegal. But work-wise, people just had to accept the fact that we were-- I, to this day, when people are hired they'll say, well what does your husband do? And I say, I don't have a husband, I have a wife. Not legally, but I have one. So it's just been that way with both of us. Again, I think it was so important in our minds that if it's OK to be gay, it's OK to be gay. And you don't make excuses, and you don't come up with-- yes it's going to be hard, and yes there's times when you're more gay than not. But you're always true to yourself. And maybe that came from just as we were raised, being true to yourself is important. And it was important for us to tell the children, be true yourself. And to stay true to yourself you can't pretend that you have a husband over here just because you're at work, and then go home. That didn't work for us. Some people it does. So we tried not to be judgmental about others making those decisions, but we often wondered, how do you do it? I mean, I just-- I know the few years we were sort of closeted with our own families-- and I say closeted because we didn't talk about it, we were afraid to bring it up to discuss it, it was agonizing. It was just awful. So I feel really bad for people who go through that and stay there and are so afraid of what might happen. Or maybe they're in a situation where serious things could happen. We lucked out. It never became an issue. We were never threatened with losing our jobs, so we weren't-- we didn't experience that, which I know some people do. And there's a reason you've got to stay safe. So we just sort of put out there, and yes I have coworkers to this day who don't like dealing with me, and I know why. But after so many years, and you're 50-something years old, it doesn't matter what you think about that. I just need to work with you. What can't we work together? I'll do my job, give me my tasks, we don't have to be friends. So I guess what I'm trying to say is we never really were confronted with a situation where it was necessary to hold back. I think that's a credit to the community in general, that we were accepted on the whole. I think people knew us from community work, so they know what we did, they knew what we were about. Sometimes we weren't a surprise to people. I think that maybe helped. But I wasn't one of these people that wanted you to get to know me and then I'll tell you. Because I just think that that's-- that doesn't help the relationship. It's like, bring this in later? No. This needs to be discussed now, and then we'll see where our relationship goes, whether we're friends or not, or whatever. 
LL:	 Kind of very similar to what your daughter Carmen did. 
CH:	 Exactly, exactly. 
LL:	 Like, you hear about who I am and accept me or not, and it's your choice. And I am who I am. 

CH:	 Right. Definitely. 
01:19:17 
LL:	 Do you want to talk a little bit, there's been a theme throughout all of your story about how the personal is political and how your choices in your life affected the choices you made as an activist? And one of the choices you made as an activist was working with Action Wisconsin and introducing the same-sex marriage ban. And you also talked about your experiences with MISL and promoting alternative family legislation. Do you want to talk a little bit about those efforts to try to educate the public, and how you may have gotten involved in promoting the gay marriage issue, and what you may be doing currently in that regard as well? 
CH:	 Sure. I think it was, let me check my notes, the first thing I was involved with in the schools, as far as trying to change policy, was I was involved with the superintendent's-- in 1997, I think-- I was on the Superintendent's Human Relations Advisory Council. And that was an acronym they called SHRAC. And that was the Jewish community representative, it was disabilities, it was NAACP, all sorts of community leaders from whatever. And I did this as I was a member of GLSEN. And we would sit with the superintendent and her staff. And we were introduced to them, our expectations as the minority groups, the protected classes, what do we have as an expectation in the schools? And so we would advocate for funding and to make sure that curriculum matched what we needed as our individual communities. That then really blossomed as far as for the gay community. Because we ended up being able to hire Bonnie Augusta, as she's still currently the liaison, the gay-lesbian representative for the school district. So that was the first area, I think, that I actually was directly involved with policy changing. And with MISL I was more like the little gofer, I was the treasurer and that kind of thing. But that was where I really decided to take an active role and voice as the representative of the community what we expected in the schools. One thing that we did get through that I worked very hard on was they were sending out surveys, climate surveys. And there weren't any questions about gay and lesbian children on that survey. And I was bound and determined-- and at that time Cheryl Wilhoyte was the superintendent, and she was difficult to get to move off of her conservative bench. But we eventually did get at least a couple of questions in that survey. So when these kids were asked how is your life in school, the gay kids could also say, well I'm bullied, I'm this, I'm that. It gave them that out. It also gave the parents an opportunity as gay parents to express from that survey how they felt the school was handling their families, or, more likely, the not handling their families. After that, I think it was like '97 when Action Wisconsin introduced the first time the same-sex marriage ban. And I remember we worked very, very hard on that and we were very happy that we were able to squash it, and it never did come to fruition. I kind of took a break from-- you really do burn out on those issues. I mean, we just needed a break. What we ended up doing was a lot of the AIDS rides. So in 2001 we did the-- at that time Tanqueray didn't have the local AIDS network rides-- and it was from Minneapolis to Chicago. And Janice and I hadn't been on a bike since we were teenagers. But we trained and we did it, and we rode for a week. And it was just wonderful. We traveled with this big city of 2,000 riders, and it was amazing. So after that, when they sort of went belly up, 2003 and 2004-- in 2003 we did one of the first local AIDS rides here in Madison. And in 2004 we did the Chicago AIDS ride. And then in 2005 we did another ride. We're getting older now and the hills are just really too high, so we've stopped. We support people and we pledge them, but we've stopped doing those rides. We did a short one last year, the MS ride, which is a little easier and a little more our speed now. So we just sort of recreate with our bikes. 
01:24:21 
CH:	In 2003 I was back with Action Wisconsin as the treasurer. And that was an interesting time, because we actually were performing more statewide, really heading into the lobbying, contemplating maybe in our own amendment that says, yes this should be happening. And testing the waters and the politics and when would it fly and whatnot. And so we raised enough money with the community, and at that time we were able to get more grants and got the 501 nonprofit status, we hired our first director, Mr. Chris Ott. So that was exciting. And then we had the whole the next time that the amendment came up, and how crushing that was when it passed. And I think, if you look at the makeup now of Fair Wisconsin, you'll see a lot of the old timers are gone. I mean, that took a lot out of us. We put our heart and soul into that. We spent just night after night pounding the pavement. And to get through a democratic legislation, and elected officials, and to find out that that core voting-- we were going out and pounding on the doors, educating them about, that amendment is so bad, and it hurts our families so much. And to think that they would vote one way on one issue, and then just totally not even think it through. OK, yes, it was confusing. But in my mind there's a lot more going on when you voted than just that two question in one format, what is it going to do. You actually decided that our families-- I mean, this is how I felt. Just devastated. And I knew at the time when I was working so hard if our efforts fail, it's just going to crush me. And it did. I didn't want anything else to do with-- I was just convinced that we lived in the most bigoted state in the nation, and I'm done. Done trying to convince you. I'm just going to be out there even more in your face about who I am. So it's at that time that we went and bought wedding rings. And I put it on and I say, don't tell me I can't be married. Because I am. I've had how many commitment ceremonies on cruise ships, and every time there's an opportunity we're recommitting. We even have a commitment thing that says, I continue to commit to you. So we're establishing ourselves as an old married couple and we're going to stay there. And whether or not in our lifetime that happens, in our minds we're just married. We tried to get to San Francisco the first time, and we had our plane tickets and everything, and then they cut it off. So we went and we stood on the steps of city hall and pretended. We took a picture of the mayor's office and everything and pretended like it happened. But we have thought about going to Iowa, and then we thought about it again, and we go, it's just a symbol. It's not going to get us anything. Why bother? We took a look at the fact that if we did ever break up, in order to get divorced you have to live in Iowa for like two years. And then you can get a divorce. And we thought, you know, that's a long time to have to leave-- because there's no residency required to get married, but there's a two year residency require to get divorced. So we said, no, that's just too long. If we really want to end this it's a lot easier right now, to just walk out that door. So we joke about it, but we would love to be able to have a marriage like everybody else. And so we will continue to work to that game. Right now we're on another one of those we've got all we can handle with an elderly mom. And even though our children are now 33 and 30 or whatever, it really is amazing that they're just young people just now coming into their own. And with the economy the way it is we've always told them there's a place to come home. They're not rich either. We don't know what's going to be. 
01:28:58
CH:	We're also in the process of wanting to retire from employment. So it's another journey. It's just part of life. And where we once had all this energy for politicking and whatnot, we now see we're almost back to when we were rearing the children as little kids. We're now nurturing old age issues, and deciding on where do we want to live as old people, and what do we want to do. And we don't want to work anymore, and can we survive? And my gosh, the budget and layoffs and all this kind of thing. Again, what's occupying our thoughts are we need to regroup. We need to make sure we have economically enough money to retire. And if we do that, what's going to happen if we want to go for two months to Europe with Mom who's back here in the nursing home. And you know she's not kicking off anytime too soon. Again, there's just not time for the activist stuff that we did. I am on the board of New Harvest, and I'm kind of excited about that. Because it's a whole different-- it's not so political as it is I just love the work they do and the money they raise and the grants that go out to GLSEN the kids in the schools so that they can do things. And just helping our community with little bits of money to seed them into forming new groups. Because I really want to see our community just continue to grow and to prosper and to be successful, so that we can gloat in our old age. Look, here's the process. We were there. We helped push it through. And aren't we proud now that everybody's just doing so well? And there's a gay president in the White House, and all that kind of good stuff. So the activism, it's always going to be in our hearts. But right now it's sort of just kind of cooling down. We're enjoying being with friends who have retired, and it just makes us want to be there ourselves so we have that time to go bowling and not have to worry about posturing and meetings and that kind of thing. It's been sort of nice not to have to go to a meeting and take notes and come back with an assignment and whatever. But I'm sure, just knowing us and how we've come in and out, that we will eventually probably be back in it. Especially if something were to develop here, I could see us just jumping back in and saying, no this is a good thing and it needs to move forward. 
LL: 	Good. Well this seems like a logical place to stop for today. I think there'll be another part two. So I'm going to just say thank you, Crystal, for sharing your story with us. And we will resume this after we decide what topics you'd like to cover in a little bit more depth. So thank you so much. 
01:32:11 
CH:	 Oh, thank you.