UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #200
PENNIMAN, CLARA

PENNIMAN, Clara (1914-2009)
Undergraduate and Graduate Student; Professor of Political Science
At UW: 1947-1950; 1953-1984

Interviewed: 1981	
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length: 5.5 hours

Background and experience; Undergraduate and graduate studies in political science at UW; Ph.D. work at Minnesota; Appointment at UW; Relations with women faculty; Scarcity of women candidates in political science; Position of women at UW; University Committee; Appointment to Merger Implementation Committee; Discussions with Governor Patrick Lucey regarding Merger; Work of Merger Implementation Committee; Personalities; Issue of legislative scholarships; Political Science Department; Importance of faculty governance system; Chairmanship; Difficulty recruiting faculty; Research.

First Interview Session (July 6, 1981): Tapes 1-2

Tape 1/Side 1

00:00:08	Background.  Business school, work, decision to come to UW as freshman.  Work in League of Women Voters as influence.  Elizabeth Brandeis.

00:05:23	As student.  Bill Young's encouragement.  Ineva Baldwin's help.  CP a TA in 1949-50 while doing MA.

00:09:07	Graduate school at Minnesota.  Accepted at Harvard, Berkeley, Yale, Chicago but fellowship too small.  Faculty and Faculty appointments.  Got Phi Kappa Phi fellowship.

00:11:08	Material repeated on side 1 of tape 2. 

00:21:04	Continuation of discussion of offers from other institutions. 

00:23:34	Question re offers to other institutions.

00:24:14	Why CP is institution oriented.  Reference to James Scott who left for Yale in early '70s.  Increase in professionalism.

00:28:08	Availability of grants led to competitive professionalism.

00:29:17	The invitation to come back to the UW to teach.  Bill Young's argument against her going to a small institution.

00:30:49	End of side.

Tape 1/Side 2

00:30:57	Question re coming back to teach in a department where had been student.

00:32:26	CP never felt any problem as result of being a woman.  Only effect was being put on so many committees.

00:33:32	Significant salary increase came as a result of chairmanship, service on University Committee and on Merger Committee.

00:37:56	Relations with other women faculty before 1969, e.g. University Club.  Allowing women entry into the Rathskeller. Political Science department lunched at Tripp Commons.

00:42:13	Comments on length of tenure for everyone, not just women, in pre-war years.

00:43:03	Knew Elizabeth Brandeis best.  Also knew Helen White.  Brandeis only other women in social sciences.

00:44:18	On hiring women in political science.  CP didn't think in those terms.  Question was one of availability of women in political science.  Few, then.  More now.

00:47:21	Think Helen White visit was requested by women.  Her reasons for not participating in women's gatherings.

00:48:28	Case of women in medical school.

00:49:48	Problems of women who feel entitled to a job because husband is on faculty.  Result, these women don't compete with single women for positions.  CP opposes having husband and wife on faculty in same department.

00:52:17	Comments on variety of meanings of word "discrimination."

00:55:24	Hidden agenda in discrimination cases.  Protecting jobs.  Opposition to administration.

00:56:18	Great variation among departments.

00:57:28	Barbara Fowler example of faculty wife getting job.

00:59:38	Appointment of Cyrena Pondrom as affirmative action officer.  An AA officer was necessary then.  Reference again to women in medical school.

01:01:38  	End of side.  End of tape.

Tape 2/Side 1

00:00:21	CP on University Committee in 1971 and involved in issues having to do with merger, i.e. less concerned with affirmative action issue.

00:02:12	Peter Simon. Nepotism rule a touchy one.

00:04:54	Affirmative action meant to be as much for minorities as for women.  A black political scientist was hired in 1968.  In 1973-74 had two of three women.

00:07:08	CP's position on affirmative action.  Political Science continued to get people from major institutions.  They had women available.  Positions were advertised.

00:11:29	CP not in a position to evaluate Pondrom's performance on job.

00:12:05	On UW personnel policy.  Question of existence of records.  Thinks there but might be difficult to access.

00:14:11	Views on faculty collective bargaining.

00:15:33	Question re issue of approval of faculty appointments in chancellor's office.  CP says probably never a vote.  Ed Young reluctant to veto.  The threat of veto a form of pressure on departments to practice affirmative action.

00:18:02	Question re Secretary of Faculty. The need to create new information.  Statistics determine policy.  Bill Loomer not an innovator.

Second Interview Session (July 8, 1981): Tapes 2-3

Tape 2/Side 1 (continued)

00:20:56	Will be talking on merger.  People not aware of extent of change going on in system.

00:24:02	Issue of use of Madison campus funds for other campuses.

00:26:32	Harrington's meeting with University Committee.

00:30:50	CP supported Lucey.  Opposed to merger completely.

00:32:37	End of side.

Tape 2/Side 2

00:32:49	CP's appointment to Merger Implementation Committee.  Had been on University Committee just a few months, and participated in meetings with legislators.  University Committee members already alert to implications of merger and studying bills carefully.

00:35:06	Talked to leaders in assembly and senate, the whole committee did, e.g. lunch in Norman Anderson's office.  Tony Earl there.  Both said merger bill definitely going through.  All you can do is protect University.

00:36:38	Provision in bill re grant and bequest sharing.

00:37:28	Ray Bowen effective chairman of University Committee.  Hector DeLuca's father-in-law Senator Swan from Rock County.  Conservative Republican.  Could help on occasion.  Dave Cronon, John Stedman, Wilson Thiede.  Bowen and Cronon most effective. Cronon had contacts through work in Historical Society.

00:39:21	On whether being a political scientist helps one to be better administrator.

00:41:28	Thinks got as good a bill as could have gotten.

00:41:56	On Ed Young's role.  Working on his own.  Young and University Committee agreed on issues.

00:43:17	Meeting of Lucey with fifteen or twenty faculty members in February 1971.  Hank Lardy, Bob Ozanne, Jack Barbash, David Fellman.  General discussion.  Not sure achieved anything.  Thinks Ozanne organized meeting.  Lucey said legislature dissatisfied with Madison.  Largely due to Vietnam.  CP reminded Lucey of John B. Chapple's attack on University when running for office.  Lucey felt he was protecting University by merger.

00:47:32	Lucey's meeting with faculty senate.

00:48:29	Faculty Council recommended Ray Bowen be put on Merger Implementation Committee.  Lucey refused.  Possibility of UW representative being from Milwaukee faculty.  Bowen and Cronon asked CP to be member.  Cronon nominated her in Faculty Council.  Thought she was politically more acceptable.  Being a woman was part of it.

00:53:34	The maneuvering as to whether Lucey would go along with it.  He phoned and asked if she'd accept.  Esther Kaplan, David Carley supported her.  Official appointment came during Faculty Senate meeting.

00:55:25	Spinning of wheels put on ad hoc committee.  Jack Pelisek made chairman.  Solberg.  Weaver played very little role.  One proposal was to write a paper on philosophy of higher education.  Pelisek said just rewrite the statute.  Don't try to do any more.

00:58:28	No faculty member put on ad hoc committee.  CP called Pelisek and said was coming to meetings.  Bowen and Cronon also.  CP thinks Solberg just didn't think of having faculty on it.  CP and WSU man were allowed to be voting members by Pelisek on his own initiative.  He was a strong chairman.

01:01:30	His way of running committee.  Let people talk.  After few months, tied it together very tightly.

01:02:30	The points at argument.  Tenure the principle one.

01:03:14	End of side.  End of tape.

Tape 3/Side 1

00:00:18	Factions on committee.  Only on a few issues, e.g. use of funds, tenure.

00:05:27	On Joe Nussbaum.  CP knew him at Minnesota.  He was governor's man on committee.  Head of DOA.  Some of issues not of great consequence to governor.

00:08:10	CP recalls working on July 4th with David Hanson, University attorney, in the chancellor's office.  He was good at getting what she wanted to say into legal language.

00:11:25	CP had connections with David Adamany.  Merger was his idea in anyone's.

00:13:05	Joe Nussbaum not a problem on committee from CP's viewpoint.  Madison didn't get years on leave as part of tenure clock.  Gave in.  For the most part got what they wanted.  Case of faculty review.  CP voted for it but asked reconsideration after getting enough votes against.  Pelisek's role in this.  He was basically sympathetic to Madison.

00:16:32	WSU representative and CP had most differences.  CP wanted as little put into statute as possible.  WSU representative (Marshall Wick) wanted more.  Legislature wanted to be given a say in University affairs through the statute.  Transfer of credits an issue.  Heinzen, the legislative representative, was strongly in favor.  The role of UW Systems vs. vocational system.

00:21:58	Cronon and Bowen came to the meetings to give moral support. The unusualness of Pelisek's letting CP and Marshall Wick vote.

00:23:54	Question re who appointed Pelisek.  Some friction between Lucey and Pelisek so Lucey made Solberg (James) head of whole committee.  Solberg appointed Pelisek head of ad hoc committee.

00:25:20	Renk was pro-Madison.  A Republican so not pro-Lucey.

00:27:45	CP enjoyed the period on the committee.  Was allowed to give up other things so had time to do it.

00:28:56	Serving on committees a way of learning about the institution.  CP emphasizes fact that the department is where faculty governance takes place, where one can be most influential.  Compares salary-decision process at UW and Harvard.

00:31:16	End of side. 

Third Interview Session (July 15, 1981): Tapes 3-5

Tape 3/Side 2

00:31:42	Legislative scholarships.  Usually given to athletes.  Merger Committee view of.  Regent Edward Hale's comment that this scholarship made it possible for him to come to University.

00:35:06	CP thinks UW would have been less hurt if merger had happened 15 years earlier, before expansion of state colleges.  There could have been more planning, less pure competition.

00:40:25	Oshkosh could have developed as a major institution in Fox River Valley with better leadership.

00:41:41	The second campus plan.

00:42:58 	Her chairmanship of department.

00:45:34	The three year term for chairman started with Leon Epstein's chairmanship.

00:47:55	No problems, decisions in department through CP's chairmanship.  First formal vote on tenure case in following chairmanship.  Had been consensus before then. 

00:49:32	The case.  Department evenly divided.  Now a vote is required due possibility of legal action.

00:51:14	The effects of the Vietnam protest movement on the department.  Didn't effect department affairs.  CP's two experiences.

01:02:48	End of side.  End of tape.

Tape 4/Side 1

00:00:03	Most if her students were MA candidates in the Center for Public Policy and Administration.

00:01:40	She was little affected by the TA strike of 1970.  Was opposed to it.

00:04:50	The department as a whole had too few TAs to be affected very much.  Political Science TAs were involved in the 1980 strike.

00:10:54	Issue of teaching load.

00:14:42	The Mulvihill report and failure of faculty to act on it.  Departments are little kingdoms.  Reports are made but no one can dictate to departments.  Issue is whether administration can rule departments.

00:22:16	Two elements of faculty governance: administration vs. faculty, departments in relation to other departments.  Significant part of faculty governance is in departments.

00:25:32	Departments during CP's chairmanship.  Money coming in for Fellowships.  One problem was recruiting faculty; had high course load.  Hard to get people.  Tried to offer compensation.  Finally reduced course load.  Harvard, Yale, UC had two-course load.

00:30:06	Placing Ph.D.'s was chairman's job, latter ceased to be.  But chairman did recruiting.  Would call chairman at Yale, Harvard.
	
00:32:35	End of side. 

Tape 4/Side 2

00:32:50	Recruited junior faculty with a few exceptions.  Non-tenured faculty in political science are not competing with each other.

00:35:24	The move from South to North Hall.

00:40:15	Moved on November 22nd, 1963.  The reaction to assassination of Kennedy.

00:41:43	Budgets were loose during CP's chairmanship.

00:44:09	James Scott's move to Yale.

00:45:00	Dave Fellman's explanation for decline in institutional loyalty.

00:47:17	Deanship of Young and Epstein.  Ease of dealing with both.  Young's two column budget.  Under Kleene more difficult.  CP head of center.  Had to press hard for money.  Kleene's hearing not good.  Sometimes as agreement turned out not to be one.

00:51:53	On her use of time.

00:54:50	Always has a research project going, or is thinking about one.  Writing textbook makes you aware of what areas need more information.

00:56:28	Finds writing difficult.  Research fun.  Would like to use computer but doesn't expect to learn how now.

01:00:42	Has almost always had summer support.

01:02:48	End of side.  End of tape.

Tape 5/Side 1
	
00:00:00	Continued discussion of writing practices. 

00:00:30	Didn't work with colleagues much.  More now.  

00:01:37	Interest in tax administration. 

00:04:20	Recently there are two younger faculty in her field.  Their greater familiarity with computer a help.  Has a project assistant in economics.

00:06:28	Collegiality.

Fourth Interview Session (July 27, 1981): Tapes 5-6

Tape 5/Side 1 (continued)

00:09:03	To be discussing University Committee period, 1971-2 to 1973-4.  First, issues having to do with Central Administration.  Due merger, there were issues re appointments.  Madison practice was to use search and screen committees.  Old WSU systems didn't have search and screen.  Weaver fumbled at first.  Problem of meshing administration.  Appointments of Don Percy as vice president for finance not cleared with any faculty committee.  Subsequently a procedure was developed.  A lot of friction in beginning.  New WSU regents on Board of Regents not familiar with ideas of faculty input.  Had notion that regents should be on committees.

00:13:41	Friction was between Madison faculty and CA.  WSU faculty not involved in beginning.

00:14:26	Weaver appointed Percy.  Didn't understand Madison campus.  One or two major confrontations.

00:16:50	Power play between UW and WSU as to which would get control of top positions.  Weaver used search and screen against a WSU person.  Was trying to get UW system people in.  

00:18:36	Question whether objection was to Percy himself or to procedure.  CP says to procedure.

00:19:26	Weaver brought Don Smith in under search and screen.

00:20:40	Smith's background.

00:23:42	He couldn't take appointment up for several months so many of his junior officers already appointed when he came.

00:25:19	Don Percy's love-hate relationship with faculty.  Not an academic.  Could be irritating; was very competent.  His positions at UW--AMRC etc.  His way of working.

00:27:35	Weaver enjoyed status part of job more than making decisions.  Got angry at University Committee for questioning his methods.  Once threatened to resign during search and screen crisis.  Came to find job distasteful.  Regents appointed him when already clear that Lucey would be next governor, so already a basis for friction between Weaver and Lucey.

00:31:14	End of side.

Tape 5/Side 2
	
00:31:29	His appointment as president of system was expected.  McPhee too old.  Thinks may have been some deals.

00:32:57	His way of expressing himself.  His presidency at Missouri not very successful.

00:35:23	On Madison's having to take responsibility for tenure appointments of people in central administration.  If individual found a department or other unit to take him on, his position would be clearer.  Chuck Engman, Bob Taylor, Art Hove examples.

00:40:58	The wage freeze issue, summer of 1972.  University Committee was urging Young to take more action.  CP thinks he was probably acting behind scenes.  Discusses the episode.

00:49:59	On Edwin Young as administrator.  The success of his partnership with Irving Shain, and Shain's with Bryant Kearl. 

00:55:22	Q. re consulting with Feinsinger over wage freeze issue.

00:56:54	Q. re appointments of Borchers to chancellor's office.  CP only worked with him when he was graduate school associate dean.

00:58:50	The supper parties during University Committee period at CP's house.  Way of meeting regents, leading legislators, central  administration people.  Small, informal.  No wives.  Well worth doing.  CP cooked, men helped. 

01:02:48	End of side.  End of tape.

Tape 6/Side 1

00:00:10	Supper parties continued.	

00:00:58	Anatole Beck on University Committee.  Always anti-administration, where that an issue.  Intelligent, witty.  His entertaining solution to issue of faculty sick-leave.

00:03:13	Wilson Thiede, when chairman, tried to adjust differences between Beck and rest of committee.  Amounted to five compromising with one.  Eventually had to take formal votes on issues which had not been customary.

00:05:26	The Comparative Literature department.  The great problem a weak department poses for a university that gives so much autonomy to departments.  Every dean had to deal with the department.

00:10:07  	Chancellor's Council on the Status of Women.  CP not familiar with activities of.  Q. had to do with references to in University Committee minutes.

00:15:17	University Committee was fascinating.  Gives different view of university.  CP thinks UC had real impact on how Madison fared in merger.  The relationship of chancellor and University Committee.  If agree, reinforce each other.

00:20:16	Q. re appointment of Pondrom as vice president with out a search and screen committee.  CP thinks University Committee should have protested.

00:22:10	Pondrom would certainly have been on list of a search and screen committee.  CP doubts Pondrom a strong candidate for chancellor.

00:23:21	CP wanted to name the Center for Public Policy and Administration for Bob LaFollette.  Nothing in University named for him.  Prepared proposal which was approved by dean, chancellor and LaFollette family.  Sent to central administration (this was in 1971).  Don Percy refused to put it on agenda of Board of Regents, said not politically feasible.  Conservative regents and near time of merger.  In spring of 1981 at an affair for Carl Runge, Tom Loftus, legislator, accused UW of neglecting to honor LaFollette.  Was told of attempt.  An amendment was proposed during the 1981 budget debate to have an institute named for LaFollette.  Outcome still not clear.  CP thinks would have been better done ten years ago.  Don Percy didn't understand politics of Wisconsin.  Even though regents were conservatives CP thinks they would have passed it through with out question.  May have left a residue of problems.  The University's constant fear that the legislature will tell the university to establish an institute of interfere in some way.

00:29:23	End of interview session.

END