UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #366
LENZ, ARNO T.

LENZ, Arno T. (1906-1992)
Undergraduate and Graduate Student; Professor of Civil Engineering
At UW: 1924-1974

Interviewed: 1983	
Interviewer: Barry Teicher
Length: 3 hours, 3 minutes

Abstract: In his 1983 interview with Barry Teicher, Arno T. Lenz discussed his experiences as a student and employee of the University of Wisconsin-Madison from 1924-1974.  Lenz cited his courses and faculty during his studies that inspired a career in civil engineering from his undergraduate through his graduate program (1924-1932).   The creation and evolution of the civil engineering department, as well as Lenz’s contributions in departmental committees is discussed.  Also, Mrs. Lenz spoke on the social obligations of a spouse of a faculty member.  This interview was conducted for inclusion into the UW—Madison Oral History Program.    

Keywords: Background; Enrollment at UW; Tripp Hall and housefellows; St. Patrick's Day parade; Employment after graduation; M.A.; Ph.D.; Hydraulics laboratory; Salary waivers; College of Engineering and research; WARF; Deans Frederick Turneaure, F. Ellis Johnson and Morton Withey; Regent-Faculty Conference Committee; Student Personnel Committee; Science Inquiry series; University Club; Athletics; Bridge and Pentagon clubs; Music and cultural events.  

NOTE: The final segment of Tape 2, Side 2, includes comments by Mrs. Arno T. Lenz.

Interview Session (December 1983):   Tapes 1-2
  
Tape 1/Side 1

00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction.

00:00:12	Question: What about your background?  Answer: AL born in Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin on September 22, 1906.  Father a machinist; wanted AL to be mechanical engineer.  Mother wanted him to be math teacher.  AL wanted to do outdoors work.  Read Van Hise's book about conserving natural resources.  Interest in structures.  Would have become an architect if the University offered the program.  High school teacher help shaped career.

00:03:20	Question: What year did you attend UW?  Answer: AL entered UW in 1924 as freshman.  University had total enrollment of 8,000 students.  AL lived in rooming house for two years; and when dorms built moved into Tripp Hall until graduation in 1928.  

00:04:34	Question: Can you tell me about your experiences at Tripp?  Answer: AL enjoyed his time.  Tripp Hall had single rooms.  House fellows.  AL looked to house fellows for support.  Meals described.  Food served to students.  Expected to wear the clothes worn to class – formal.  

00:08:20	Question: Did the house fellows partake in dinner?  Answer: Yes.  But it wasn’t continuous.  

00:09:10	Question: Can you talk about undergrad professors who influenced you?  Answer: Dean Adam Maurer, in charge of freshman advising.  AM was a good teacher.  Ray Owens was an unofficial advisor.  Danny Mead and Lenny Smith influential professors.  Civil engineering not a department. Belonged to Chi Theta Epsilon, was able to get to know faculty better.  

00:13:19	Question: How were you elected into Chi Theta Epsilon?  Answer: You had to have B average to be elected into fraternity.  UW chapter was number 6 in nation.  The fraternity was founded at University of IL.  Elected by the students.  Although students with high grade point averages were not elected.  Met in University buildings.

00:14:49	Question: Can you tell about your experiences with the Law School.  Answer: Engineering pranks on Law School.  Locked law students out of their building one time.  St. Patrick's Day Parade pranks – put toilet bowls on flat bed trucks.  Rivalry developed between two schools because of location. 

00:17:57	Question: How much emphasis was on the theoretical and the practical?  Answer:  A lot on the practical, there was mathematical theory.  There were no calculators or computers to use.  The practical was stressed.  

00:18:56	Question: How did your graduation come about?  Answer: AL graduated in 1928.  AL got a job through Ray Owen with a paper company.  AL took job at paper company after graduation and did inspections.  AL expected to start a career in construction.  After four years on campus, it was lonely.  UW called AL one summer – looking for a professor in hydraulic and sanitary department.  AL was interested, but AL not happy with the social life in Madison. 
 
00:22:50	[no question] AL talking about elective courses he had to take.  Listing professors he had for three elective courses.  AL wanted to take a course with Danny Mead.  AL considered getting a masters in engineering.  

00:24:13	[no question] Only one or two fellowships in College of Engineering.  It was almost impossible to get one of those.  Explains how AL’s position opened up.  AL did not know how long he would stay.  In 1932 AL received MA while teaching full time – courses in hydraulics.  AL helped Danny Mead, who was part time.  Danny Mead taught four hours in a row every morning.  AL graded papers and made up exams.

00:28:17	[no question] AL continues to talk about work.  During Depression difficulties finding job.  AL stayed in department.  Bureau of Reclamation offered AL position in construction in State of Washington.  AL working on Ph.D. and did not accept.

00:31:00	Question: Higher degrees were new in civil engineering?  Answer: Yes. Ph.D. program in civil engineering was new when AL began.  In chemical engineering there were Ph.D.’s.  

00:32:16	Question: How did teachers react to new Ph.D. program?  Answer: There was support, at least from Dawson.  Wide support for more Ph.D.'s teaching.  AL never ran across anyone who was against the Ph.D. program.  Practical experience urged for engineering teachers.  Usually worked during summer – this was common, because money was tight.  Although it was hard to find jobs in civil engineering. 

00:34:12	Question: How do you the Ph.D. program in retrospect.  Answer: Ph.D. program changed engineering field.  New fields begun like engineering technology.  

00:35:19	Question: Did the change in degrees adjust the studies?  Answer: Studies became more theoretical.  Field has expanded.  It is necessary to be able to handle more advanced mathematics.  It is also important to have a foundation in chemistry.  To teach and publish, one needs theory.

00:37:14	[no question] AL editor of Chi Theta Epsilon newsletter for his chapter.  In letters to the editor, engineers would complain that articles are too scientific.  AL suggested co-authors--one practical and one theoretical.

00:39:20	Question: What about your teaching interests?  Answer: AL's advanced field hydraulics and fluid mechanics.  Began school with minor in mathematics.  Mead honorary chair of hydraulics department.  AL taught hydraulics.  Dawson was a support to AL, as AL had second thoughts about teaching.  Minored in geology and some work in economics.  

00:43:10	[no question] AL still talking about his experience in the geology department.  AL had a good partner in lab class who was a geologist – AL would write reports.

00:44:55	Question:  What were your major teaching responsibilities?  Answer: AL taught introductory hydraulics.  Jim Bowman took over Danny Mead's position as a lecturer.  Tennessee Valley Authority hired Bowmen later.  AL also taught water power, hydraulic machinery, drainage, and irrigation.

00:47:04	End of side.

Tape 1/Side 2

00:47:05	[no question] AL also taught hydraulic investigation and design.  AL taught a broad cross-section of the hydraulic courses.  Danny Mead had consulting practice.

0:48:26	[no question] AL talks about interest in hydraulic investigations.  Jim Bowman had AL work for Tennessee Valley Authority for several summers.  Worked on rain gauges and Norris Dam.  AL became interested in flood forecasting.  

00:50:43	[no question] Built flume in hydraulics lab and ran model tests for construction of Piedmont and Castle Rock Dams.  One of AL’s master students worked for the company that hired AL to help build this flume.  AL performed model research.

00:52:32	Question:  Did you ever collaborate with any other department?  Answer: Collaborated with Henry Heart.  Heart asked AL if the two could work together on water resource management.  No collaborative research with geology department.  After WWII developed joint water resources management with political science and economics department.  One of first in nation. 

00:55:58	Question: What about Service Industry?  Answer: What All model tests paid by Consolidated Paper Company.  AL worked with Wisconsin Valley Improvement Company, which operated reservoirs on Wisconsin River.  Information used for undergraduate theses.

00:57:50	Question: Did you take service calls?  Answer: Not too many.  Manufacturing company near Shelton.  AL did testing there.   

00:59:08	Question: How were salaries increased?  Answer: Sometimes AL wouldn’t find out about a raise until he received a check.  Salaries reviewed by department chair; group then assembled to discuss.  Used base amount and looked at research, publications, and public service.  Developed into group decision process.  Instructors did not like this method.  

01:03:48	[no question] Had to justify figures to Dean Withey.  Dean reacted alright to AL’s figures.  Dean would make suggestions and raise questions.   

01:04:20	Question: Do you remember salary waivers from the 1930s and how it affected you?  Answer: Yes.  Faculty/instructors received written notice of salary waivers.  Instructors restored to same level, but no back pay.  It took a while for professors to achieve pre-waiver salary.  Was no serious reaction because jobs scarce.  No union.

01:06:38	[no question] Post WWII student increase in enrollment.  Campus grew.  Helped Dean Withey with enrollment. AL joked about faculty going on strike – Dean Withey was not amused.

01:07:48	Question: How was tenure and promotions decided?  Answer: Instructors didn’t have much to say about it.  AL involved in divisions committee and objected, but overruled.  AL had to review the success of the division – nobody could think of a reason to have a division.  AL moved to abolish the division.  

01:11:08	[no question] Engineers did not rush to publish – in the early days.  Promotions held up.  AL tells a story about trying to help a faculty member get tenure.

01:14:49	Question: Why did, from 1939-1940, civil engineering develope from merger of hydraulic/sanitary and contracts/specification happen?  Answer:  New dean, Johnson, wanted executive committee of department chairs, and not so many small groups.  Professor Van Hagen became first department chair.  Discussion of consolidation.  This hadn’t been done earlier because of professional jealousy.  There was no objection to the consolidation.  

01:19:14	Question: Can you talk about the Engineering Contract and Specifications Group?  Answer: AL did not know this operation was listed as a department.  Danny Mead taught that course.  AL helped Mead with contracts for a few years.  AL got one check for having two jobs.  

01:20:35	Question:  Can you talk about Harold Ruff?  Answer: Harold Ruff instructor and worked on Ph.D. in 1937.  Went into Grede Foundry.  AL also listed as instructor while working on Ph.D.  Harold left once he got his Ph.D.   

01:22:22	[no question] AL took leave of absence for one year to work on Tennessee Valley Authority after received Ph.D.  Needed staff at UW.  AL not enjoying himself at TVA.  AL promised associate professor position if he taught – he did not get this position even though he came back.

01:26:28	[no question] Professor Dawson ran department even though Mead was the chair.  Dawson chair for one year as was Kessler.

01:28:44	Question: Can you tell me about Jim Woodburn?  Answer: 1937-1938 Jim Woodburn joined the department.  Same time AL decided to pursue Ph.D.  Was more scientist type.  Woodburn emphasized having a Ph.D.

01:32:05	Question: Can you tell us about Van Hagen and why he left?  Answer: Van Hagen named chair of civil engineering department.  Van Hagen left UW, because he retired in his 70s.  Had few department meetings; emphasized teaching.

01:33:55		End of tape 1.
Tape 2/Side 1

01:33:56	[no question] Discussion of faculty in engineering department and their histories.  Jack Borchardt, Willard S. Cottingham, Lee Crandell, Arnie Easton, Harry Kessler, William Kenny.

01:37:40	[no question] Still talking about faculty members.  Dick Kof, Jerry Lawton, Bill Lee, M. Starr Nichols, Ray Owens. 

01:40:25	[no question] Still talking about faculty members.  Lloyd Raider, Eldon C. Wagner, and James G. Woodburn.

01:45:46	Question: What did these Chairman do well within the program?  Answer: Chairman developed sense of direction for department like teaching (Van Hagen) or research (Woodburn).

01:47:02	Question: Did the department have a policy on internal hiring?  Answer: No internal hiring policy.  Woodburn emphasized hiring from outside when he was chairman.  Most of faculty came from outside.  Cottingham came to AL when hiring – Cottingham wanted to keep his students on and hire them as professors.  

01:50:38	Question: Did other departments bring in outsiders?  Answer: AL can’t really say. Other departments predominately hired from outside.

01:51:14	Question: How did other departments relate?  Answer: Cooperation between departments when asked for.  No effort to work together.  AL cooperated with engineering mechanics.  Just recently a change in this cooperation.  

01:52:56	Question:  Describe the facilities you worked in.  Answer: When AL began at University, he had lab down by Lake Mendota, which was built in 1906, but was outstanding for its time.  Had measuring devices.  AL helped develop a lab at the University in Santa Domingo.

01:56:22	[no question] Attempt to burn Lake Mendota.  Al’s research had to do with oil flow.  Some oil got into the lake, and AL wanted to burn off the oil.  AL tried to light it, but it wouldn’t light.  Eventually, AL and colleague started an oil fire.     

01:59:55	Question: Did you stay in the same building for most of your career?  Answer:  No.  College of Engineering moved from Education Building to Mechanical Engineering with no labs.  During WWII moved into temporary buildings.  New engineering building built with new equipment.

02:02:14	Question: When you had an idea for research, who would you contact for approval?  Answer: Research ideas would go to department chair to see what money available, and then WARF for support, and then would go outside.

02:04:48	Question: Was WARF receptive to civil engineering?  Answer: WARF reasonably responsive to hydraulics and sanitary.

02:06:06	Question: What was your exposure to Dean Turneaure?  Answer: AL's exposure to Dean Turneaure as undergraduate, he taught advanced courses.  AL took two classes with Dean in undergrad.  Dean was a solid teacher.  Dean Turneaure conservative and formal.  Instructors need not fraternize with faculty often.  Dean Turneaure a good Dean and distinguished scholar, but did not ask for as much as he could have from College.

02:10:30	[no question] Senior faculty not happy with Dean Johnson.  They would have liked to have seen promotion from within.  President appointed deans.  Dean Johnson's first meeting with faculty was informal, in which he tried to stimulate them to be better and go to other schools.  

02:14:13	[no question] AL still talking about Dean Johnson.  He would make up a page bibliography on graduating seniors which had to follow a set format.  AL would correct these.  Johnson used Christmas tree analogy to explain hierarchy of department.  Father figure.  No strong feelings for or against junior faculty.

02:18:45	Question: Why did Dean Johnson leave?  Answer: AL thinks he retired or maybe had gotten another job.

02:19:23	Question: Can you characterize Dean Withey?  Answer: Dean Withey was approachable.  AL asked Withey his advice about getting involved in the highway field.  

02:20:28	End of side.

Tape 2/Side 2

02:20:29	[no question] AL continues his thoughts on Dean Withey.  Faculty liked Dean Withey.  AL gave President Fred his opinion of appointing Withey to position.  Withey was stable, worked for the College, and was energetic.

02:24:26	[no question] AL discusses Dean Wendt.  Dean Wendt kept with Withey's tradition and kept many of same personnel. 

02:25:13	[no question] Engineering Mechanics lab used for structural engineering research.  Maurer's laboratory.  No structures lab in civil engineering department. 
	
02:27:15	[no question] Old Highway Building taken over by civil engineering department as lab when state highway commission moved out.

02:27:36	Question: What was Wendt’s contribution?  Answer: Wendt worked well with industry.  Started annual Engineering Day.

02:29:02	[no question] AL's committee assignments.  Regent/Faculty Conference--Student Life and Welfare was opportunity for faculty and regents to talk.

02:29:58	Question:  What about Lectures and Convocations Committee?  Answer: Lectures and Convocations Committee selected speakers with a fund.  Was a university-wide committee.

02:31:10	[no question] Lake and Stream Investigation was developing area, which developed into water resource management.

02:32:18	[no question] Student Personnel Committee involved in awarding scholarships, primarily to undergraduates.  AL enjoyed this committee Issues discussed was whether to award without financial need and only academic achievement. 

02:33:50	[no question] Theodore Hirshhorn Award Committee met with student nominees at Union dinner meeting.  AL on this committee for one year.

02:35:30	Question: Does the phrase Science Inquiry” mean anything to you?  Answer: Science Inquiry began in 1930s.  Series of pamphlets.  Attempt to inform people state-wide and nationally about resources of Wisconsin and what University doing.  Science Inquiry like a committee.

02:38:24	Question: Were you ever a member of the University Club?  Answer: AL member and board member (secretary and president) of University Club during 1960s.  Club wanted space in new Helen C. White building.  Too expensive and would have required compulsory membership.  Would have been compulsory for new faculty only and voluntary for other faculty.  Did not work out.

02:43:13	Question: Why did you wait to join?  Answer: AL joined University Club late because normally used Union for lunch and AL was junior faculty.

02:44:34	Question: Did you ever belong to a dining club?  Answer: AL never belonged to dining club.

02:44:55	Question: Did you attend athletic events?  Answer: Since 1924 AL attended almost every football game.  Also attended basketball, which was initially played in Red Gym.  Used to have student coupon books with tickets for all athletic events.  AL on Athletic board.  AL went to boxing regularly.

02:48:15	Question: Did you have interest in athletic teams?  Answer: Yes.  The Wagners, Crandalls, and Woodburns were all interested in sports too.  UW athletic teams discussed.  

02:49:03	Question: Characterize the role of athletics.  Answer: Athletics important to University.  AL’s children are all UW graduates – some not interested in athletics, but daughter and son still attend events.  AL discusses commitment to athletic teams after students leave school.  

02:51:43	[no question] Mrs. Lenz belonged to Bridge Club, which consisted of women whose husbands belonged to civil engineering department.  Was a social club.

02:52:47	Question: What about the Pentagon?  Answer: Mrs. Lenz also belonged to Pentagon, a club which included all five divisions of engineering college.  Met at homes of faculty.  Obligation to attend.  Ended around 1975 as more women began to work.  Mrs. Lenz President at time.  Also new faculty wives not joining.   Once a year held formal dinner dance in Tripp Commons.

02:56:10	[no question] Mrs. Lenz President at time.  Also new faculty wives not joining.   Once a year held formal dinner dance in Tripp Commons.

02:58:52	Question: Did you attend events at Music Hall?  Answer: Mrs. Lenz attended many music events and cultural events at Union Theater and Music Hall.  Always attended Palm Sunday band concert.  She also attended many dance programs and art exhibits.

03:03:04	End of interview.

END