UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #770
SUSMAN, Millard 

SUSMAN, Millard (1934- )
Emeritus Professor of Genetics
At UW: 1962-2001

Interviewed: 2006 & 2013
Interviewer: Robert Lange (Sessions 1-4); Troy Reeves & Daniel Liu (Session 5)
Length: 9.5 hours
Index: Unknown & Jill Slaight

Family background; Early education; High school; Washington University; Travel in Europe; Graduate study at Caltech; Dissertation research; Postdoc in London; Hiring by UW; Research program; Graduate students; Publications; Teaching; Tenure; Administrative developments in genetics and medical genetics at UW; Terms as department chair; Genetics Training Program; Clinical Genetics Unit; Biocore; Institute for Cross-College Biology Education; Medical Scholars; Associate Dean of the Medical School; Acting Dean of the School of Allied Health Professions; University Committee; Faculty salaries; Faculty unionization; Faculty grievances; Graduate School Faculty Executive Committee; Biology Division Curriculum Planning Committee; Center for Biology Education; Policy on conflict of interests; CHS track in the Medical School; Faculty governance; Committee service; University administration.

First Interview Session (May 31, 2006): Tapes 1-3
Tape 1/Side 1
Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Millard Susman was born in St. Louis in 1934.  His mother was a professional ballerina and his father was a lawyer.  They divorced when he was three years old.
00:01:45	He lived with his grandparents and began school in University City, Missouri.  His ancestors were all Russian Jews who had immigrated to the US in the early twentieth century.
00:03:30	His mother opened a dance studio.  She was the prima ballerina at the Fox Theater in St. Louis.
00:06:10	His mother remarried when MS was seven years old.  MS took his new father’s last name.
00:07:48	MS has a younger brother and sister.  His biological father also had other children whom he met much later in life.
00:12:01	His brother, Todd, is an actor.  His sister is a public defender in St. Louis. 
00:14:15	MS describes his public education in St. Louis and University City.  
00:15:21	He performed poorly in grade school but excelled in high school and graduated first in his class.
00:17:42	MS discusses his development from being an indifferent student to becoming a scholar.
00:19:36	He didn’t have to work during high school because his father was a successful businessman.  MS occasionally worked in one of his father’s businesses.
00:22:36	He describes influential teachers in high school.  By the end of high school he knew he wanted to become a scientist. 
00:25:03	He talks about an English teacher (Mrs. Gottlieb) from high school. Lange mentions that Ron Wallace (in Creative Writing at UW-Madison) was also Gottlieb’s student. A friend, Burton Weber, also influenced Susman’s intellectual development. 
00:31:28	End of side. 
Tape 1/Side 2
00:31:29	Millard Susman continues to talk about his friend from high school, with whom he shared interest in art, music, and poetry. Their falling out during college. Weber was an intellectual purist. 
00:39:10	He met his wife in college.
00:40:25	After graduating from high school in 1952 he attended Washington University.  He won a full tuition scholarship.
00:43:41	MS intended to major in psychology and work in mental health.  He was quickly disappointed with this course of study and majored instead in zoology.  He describes some influential professors at Washington University.
00:46:19	He describes some of his zoology professors. 
00:49:37	Genetics professors.  MS did research as an undergraduate.
00:51:56	He talks about his extracurricular activities at Washington University.
00:55:43	MS was admitted to Washington University Medical School but he withdrew because he didn’t want to be a doctor.  
00:57:21	The summer after graduating he traveled in Europe with his future wife. Reflections on travel in the immediate Post-WWII period. 
01:02:47	End of side.  End of tape.
Tape 2/Side 1
01:02:48	Millard Susman returned from Europe to St. Louis and worked in a genetics lab at Washington University.  His professors recommended that he apply to graduate school at UW-Madison and Caltech.  When Joshua Lederberg wrote to MS to tell him that he was leaving UW for Stanford, MS decided to go to Caltech.  He was interested in microbial genetics.
01:06:30	He married Barbara in 1957.  His family was angry that he would marry outside of the Jewish faith.  Her parents also disapproved of the marriage.
01:12:03	This was the ideal time to become a scientist because the federal government pumped money into scientific research after the launch of Sputnik.
01:14:27	MS describes his graduate study at Caltech from 1957 to 1961.  
01:22:46	He did his research on the participation of bacteriophages in mating events.  This research became irrelevant by the time he defended his thesis.
01:29:04	MS describes a second research project that was not incorporated in his thesis.  At that time there was less of a rush to publish; he thinks research then was less rancorous than it is now.
01:34:10	End of side.
Tape 2/Side 2
01:34:11	Millard Susman continues to discuss the exchange of ideas among scientists in the 1950s and today.
01:40:00	MS was a teaching assistant at Caltech.  
01:47:05	He incorporated exams he had taken into his teaching style.
01:48:07	He talks about teaching bacterial genetics at UW.
01:52:53	MS received his PhD in 1962.  He went to London for a year to work in the lab of Bill Hayes, where he learned about bacterial genetics. He and Barbara had a child. 
02:01:31	He discusses planning for his career after London.  He worried that his association with Max Delbruck might hurt him because Delbruck consistently mistreated colleagues.
02:05:17	End of side.  End of tape.
Tape 3/Side 1
02:05:18	Millard Susman continues to talk about his advisor, Max Delbruck.
02:09:09	Before leaving for his postdoc in London, MS applied to UW-Madison and to Oak Ridge Laboratory in Tennessee.  When he interviewed at UW he met Jim Crow, Howard Temin, and others.
02:11:45	While in London he accepted the job offer from UW because he wanted to teach undergraduates–something unavailable at Oak Ridge.  He also had concerns about living in the South.
02:13:41	Faculty at UW had similar interests in genetics as he did.
02:15:40	Professor Bill Stone helped fund MS’s research with some of his grant money.
02:17:16	He describes meeting Jim Crow.
02:19:11	MS describes his research program on bacteriophage development.  Several laboratory specialists assisted him but he thinks his early work never amounted to much.
02:27:55	He talks about graduate students who worked in his lab.
02:35:13	End of session. 

Second Interview Session (June 1, 2006): Tapes 3-5
Tape 3/Side 2, continued

00:00:00	MS participated in the writing of two published textbooks.
00:08:51	He talks about his colleague Eava Therman and her second-class position in the department.  MS attempted to get her a proper faculty position while he was chair of the department.
00:13:139	He helped Therman revise a new edition of her textbook, Human Chromosomes: Structure, Behavior, and Effects.
00:18:01	He almost wrote for a third textbook but the project flopped.
00:20:20	End of side.  End of tape.
Tape 4/Side 1
00:20:21	Millard Susman describes his office space and the department’s physical facilities.  He had one graduate student and one technician when he started working at UW.
00:24:58	None of his early experiments would work. He suspected something was amiss with the water in the building. 
00:26:18	For his first few years he taught a one-semester course.  He also taught a seminar on microbial genetics.
00:27:57	He worked as a teaching assistant in Jim Crow’s general genetics course to brush up on his genetics and to interact with students.
00:29:20	Jim Crow was the preeminent teacher in genetics.
00:33:03	MS talks about the reputation of the genetics department.  The department at UW was the first genetics department in the country, founded in 1910.  He discusses the history of the department.
00:35:52	His promotion to tenure was a very informal process.  MS talks about how the tenure process has changed.
00:42:30	He served on several committees while he was an assistant professor.
00:43:48	He participated in an informal seminar on molecular biology.  He later became much more involved in campus affairs after he served as chair of the department.
00:46:25	When MS came to UW, there were two genetics departments: medical genetics in the Medical School and the genetics department in Agriculture.  The new genetics building was envisioned as a home for the two departments.  Administratively the two departments met in the Division of Genetics.
00:49:30	MS served on a committee to study setting up the Laboratory of Genetics to unify the two departments.
00:51:36	End of side.
Tape 4/Side 2
00:51:37	Millard Susman describes the split in agricultural genetics between the applied and basic science faculty.  This occurred before he came to UW.
00:53:14	MS succeeded Jim Crow as department chair in 1971.  He underestimated the impact the chairmanship would have on his professional life.  A university-wide emphasis on accountability increased the busy work that fell on the chair.
00:56:45	He talks about the changing relationship between the university and the local community and how it has changed since the Vietnam war years.
01:02:18	As chair he was asked to keep close records on the department’s teaching assistants during the TA strike.
01:06:03	MS describes some difficult issues he dealt with as chair.
01:09:35	His powers as chair were mostly budgetary.
01:14:21	He talks about deans with whom he worked while serving as chair.
01:17:19	MS kept teaching while he was chair but his lab suffered.
01:21:24	End of side.  End of tape.
Tape 5/Side 1
01:21:25	Millard Susman lists some additions that were made to the genetics faculty during his term as chair from 1971 to 1975.
01:27:07	In 1975-76, Jim Crow was again the department chair but MS was essentially a co-chair.  MS resumed service as chair from 1977 to 1986.
01:28:38	During his first term as chair, the department applied for the NIH Genetics Training Program to support graduate students and postdoctoral students.  MS, who chaired the program, used this as an interdepartmental training program.
01:31:05	MS talks about new buildings for genetics and the relationship with the biochemistry department under Hector DeLuca.  He also contrasts his leadership style as chair with that of DeLuca.
01:37:13	MS discusses his second term as chair of the genetics department from 1977 to 1986.  His most pressing issue was to retain funding to make salaries competitive.
01:42:17	He describes substantive changes in research carried on in the genetics department since the 1960s.  Research has become both increasingly molecular and biochemical and more expensive.
01:45:08	He talks about some of the scientific frontiers in genetics that have been crossed during his career.
01:50:12	MS hopes that the Discovery Institute funded by a gift from the Morgridge family will increase the opportunities for geneticists to engage in collaborative teaching and research.
01:52:43	End of side.
Tape 5/Side 2
01:52:44	Millard Susman comments on stellar young faculty in the genetics department.
01:58:51	He thinks the genetics department is one of the top programs in the country.
02:00:22	He discusses the Clinical Genetics Unit that provides counseling.  The Unit has had a difficult time getting established in the medical school.  Relationship with the pediatrics department.
02:05:29	It has been difficult to get sufficient funds to hire personnel for the Unit.  MS describes the attitude of the medical school toward developing the Unit.  He states the case for the medical and scientific benefits of the Unit.
02:14:42	Edwin Young came up with the idea of the Biocore program.  Professor Kelly Clifton (radiology and human oncology) headed up the effort to create the course and recruit faculty to teach it.
02:18:31	They agreed that the Biocore course would be three semesters.  MS describes the organization of the course.  He was a member of the cellular biology team with responsibility for directing the lab.
02:21:33	MS greatly enjoyed teaching the first year of Biocore students.
02:23:50	End of side.  End of tape.

Third Interview Session (June 5, 2006): Tapes 6-7

Tape 6/Side 1
00:00:00	Millard Susman resumes his discussion about the Biocore program.  He talks about the prerequisites for students in the program.
00:02:43	Biocore was envisioned as a program for students who wanted to train to be biology researchers, biologists, and physicians.
00:03:30	MS taught in Biocore from 1968 until 2001.  Biocore continues today and has been extended to a four-semester program.
00:06:07	Class size in Biocore has grown from an average of 30 at the beginning to over 150.  He discusses the caliber of, and expectations placed on, these students.
00:10:56	Genetics faculty in the 1960s had used Jim Crow’s lecture notes in their teaching.  Since then the field has become much broader and this has forced professors to change the ways they teach.
00:13:45	MS talks about teaching genetics to non-science majors.
00:16:57	Biocore was unique in being a three- to four-semester integrated course and in having faculty teach subjects they knew profoundly.
00:20:53	He talks about the administration of the Biocore program and his instrumental role in creating the program.
00:23:07	Other universities had previously developed a biology core curriculum but these did not last.  UW has succeeded in maintaining Biocore because of its vast resources of biology faculty.
00:25:19	There is no uniform policy among UW colleges as to crediting faculty with their teaching activities in Biocore.  MS thought the problem was solved by creating the Institute for Cross-College Biology Education, of which he was director.  Provost Peter Spear gave MS a generous budget to purchase faculty help for the Institute.
00:30:55	Both junior and senior faculty taught Biocore courses.
00:31:28	End of side.
Tape 6/Side 2
00:31:29	Millard Susman continues to discuss recruiting professors to teach basic Biocore courses.
00:32:53	He lists some prominent faculty who taught these courses.  He talks about teaching in the lab.
00:38:25	The original funding for Biocore came from the Chancellor’s Office.
00:39:04	Biocore lectures were first held in Bascom Hall and labs were taught in the bacteriology building, Fred Hall.  Noland Hall later housed lectures and labs.
00:40:29	MS thinks most students in Biocore were premed.  He talks about the Medical Scholars Program.
00:43:23	He describes the social environment among Biocore students and Medical Scholars.
00:47:39	MS describes Ann Burgess, who directed Biocore for many years and became an expert in educational reform, theory, and active learning.  He talks about her efforts to transform teaching in the Biocore program. 
00:56:29	More reflections on Burgess’ transformation of the program, particularly the addition of the fourth semester. 
01:00:14	As director, Burgess reported to a steering committee appointed by the provost.  The steering committee consisted of faculty and students.  An executive committee evaluated the performance of the director, made recommendations for salary increases, etc.  MS served on both the steering and executive committees for most of his tenure in the program.
01:02:53	End of side.  End of tape.
Tape 7/Side 1
01:02:54	Millard Susman describes the activities of Ann Burgess since her retirement.
01:06:03	In 1986, Arnold “Bud” Brown, dean of the Medical School, asked MS to consider being associate dean of the Medical School.  At the time he was the chair of the laboratory of genetics but thought it might be time to move on to something else.
01:09:33	He talks about being hired as associate dean.
01:10:39	MS discusses his predecessors in the associate deanship.
01:12:17	His responsibilities were to be the principal business officer, personnel manager, and research manager of the Medical School.  He also supervised the training of graduate students working in laboratories.
01:14:29	MS describes the administrative and bureaucratic structures that support the associate dean.
01:15:39	Departmental administrators in the clinical departments of the Medical School had been considered comparable to the business managers of private clinics and therefore should be paid accordingly.  MS dealt with this issue when he first became associate dean and had to justify to David Ward why department administrators should make more money than he did.
01:22:10	It was a problem for some in the Medical School that MS wasn’t a physician.
01:23:37	His job as associate dean was “overwhelmingly huge.”  
01:26:19	Judie Murphy assisted MS in his personnel duties.
01:28:52	He was responsible for listening to grievances, as well as assembling retention packages for faculty.
01:32:58	The clinical pay practice plan had begun to be negotiated before MS became associate dean.
01:34:13	End of side.
Tape 7/Side 2
01:34:14	Millard Susman continues to discuss the pay practice plan and discretionary funds in the Medical School.
01:37:03	While he was associate dean the physical facilities of the Medical School were crumbling and space was limited.  The basic science departments were located in the old hospital at 1300 University Avenue.
01:41:23	MS served as associate dean for nine years.  During his tenure Larry Marton replaced Arnold Brown as dean of the Medical School.
01:41:57	His associate deanship covered turbulent times in the Medical School.  There were sharp disagreements about information technology as well as conflict between personnel.
01:46:36	MS lists the major achievements during his associate deanship: hiring of researchers, upgrading the quality of research, and improvement in the recruiting process.
01:48:08	David Ward wanted Arnold Brown to fire MS and Judie Murphy.
01:51:10	He thinks the years of his associate deanship were unavoidably difficult for clinical departments because HMOs, insurance companies, and state regulations placed greater pressure on medical practices.  
01:52:45	There were also issues about the paying for training of medical residents, salaries, and finances.  The “Robin Hood system” made richer departments pay more to the practice plan.
01:57:29	MS on the deanship of Arnold Brown, who left in the early 1990s.
01:59:36	Donna Shalala hired Larry Martin to succeed Brown.  He describes Martin’s plans for the UW Medical School.
02:04:46	End of side.  End of tape.

Fourth Interview Session (June 12, 2006): Tapes 8-9

Tape 8/Side 1
00:00:00	Millard Susman discusses his term as Acting Dean of the School of Allied Health Professions from 1988 to 1990.  Donna Shalala asked MS to chair a committee to study the School and make recommendations on its future.  While chairing the committee he was asked to serve as Acting Dean.
00:03:10	The study found that the funding of the School was inadequate and that its constituent departments did not work very closely.  Many courses were taught by professionals in the community and programs were generally run on an ad hoc basis.
00:05:16	The committee recommended that the School be dissolved.  Occupational Therapy and Physical Therapy would be moved to the School of Education; Physician Assistant to the department of Family Medicine; and Medical Technology to the Pathology Department.
00:08:40	MS talks about the reaction of members of the School of Allied Health Professions to these recommendations.  He lists the advantages the committee envisioned in dissolving and restructuring the School.  Ultimately Physical Therapy was moved out of the School of Education and into the Medical School.
00:14:20	This was a busy time for him because he was simultaneously serving as associate dean of the Medical School.
00:16:19	MS describes his service on the University Committee.  During his first year the Committee reported on faculty salaries compared to other universities.
00:18:18	He talks about the report on the university’s economic impact on the state.  
00:24:53	Origins of the report. MS edited much of the report, which was widely distributed.
00:29:00	A lobbying organization for the faculty (PROFS) supported the report.
00:30:46	A “catch-up” raise was approved, brining UW faculty salaries in line with peer-group institutions.  MS talks about meeting with state government officials at the time, including Russ Feingold.
00:36:35	Pressure to unionize the faculty was another big issue at the time.  Early in his career MS had joined United Faculty.  But by the 1980s MS and the other members of the University Committee unanimously opposed unionization of the faculty.
00:41:34	The economic impact study focused on faculty and not on other university employees who might be inequitably paid.
00:43:47	Faculty grievances occupied a great deal of time in the University Committee.
00:46:45	End of side.
Tape 8/Side 2
00:46:46	Millard Susman describes some grievances brought by faculty to the University Committee.
00:51:19	The committee also heard appeals of tenure denials.  
00:55:23	He also addresses the issue of how childbirth affects the tenure clock for women.
00:58:17	MS talks about the political atmosphere in the Wisconsin State Assembly at the time of the “catch-up.”
00:59:45	He discusses his service on the Graduate School Faculty Executive Committee.
01:03:56	He comments on the research programs in biological sciences at UW.
01:12:17	MS chaired the Biology Division Curriculum Planning Committee.  The creation of a new biology major and a central institute to manage it was the main issue he dealt with as chair.
01:30:02	After he retired, MS served as director of the Center for Biology Education.
01:33:11	End of side.  End of tape.
Tape 9/Side 1
01:33:12	Millard Susman discusses his service on numerous committees that tried to draft policy on conflicts of interest.
01:39:34	Conflicts of interest in the Medical School.
01:49:14	MS talks about the problems created by the tiered structure of CHS and tenure-track faculty in the Medical School.  In the dean’s office and various committees he had to address the treatment of those faculty on the CHS track.  MS chaired a committee that tried to draft tenure criteria for CHS professors.
01:59:57	High proportion of women on CHS track.
02:01:06	End of side.
Tape 9/Side 2
02:01:07	Millard Susman reflects on his career at UW.  Opportunities for research by students have increased since he first came to Madison.
02:04:46	He comments on leadership of the university, particularly the role of faculty governance.
02:08:34	He talks about the leadership of Chancellors John Wiley, Irving Shain, and Donna Shalala.
02:15:36	End of side.  End of tape.  End of session. 

Fifth Interview Session (March 5, 2013): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Interviewer’s introduction. 
00:00:30	Question: Early life? Answer: Millard Susman (MS) enjoyed the genetics portion of his high school biology class, although his parents envisioned him as a physician. He attended Washington University in Saint Louis for college, majoring in psychology but later switching to zoology. He applied and was admitted to medical school; his advisor counseled him against attending, to the chagrin of his parents. MS decided to pursue graduate work in genetics at Washington University and later Cal Tech. 
00:03:31	Question: Life as a graduate student in genetics in the 50s/60s? Answer: It was an “exciting time” because people were just beginning to learn about DNA. Microbial genetics was “where all the action was” by the time he graduated from college. MS was accepted to both UW-Madison and Cal Tech but opted for the latter because his would-be advisor at UW was leaving for Stanford.  
00:05:50	Question: Path to Madison? Answer: Ray Owen, a UW-Madison graduate, was his professor at Cal Tech and put in a good word for him at UW. After his dissertation defense, MS gave a seminar on his research at UW-Madison and was offered a job. 
00:07:45	Question: Dissertation work? Answer: MS described his dissertation work on the consequences of infecting bacterium with viruses.  His research question focused on the possibilities for viruses’ interaction in the recombination process. He obtained the results his advising professor had expected. 
00:10:19	Question: Focus on agricultural genetics at Cal Tech and UW-Madison? Answer: When he arrived in 1962, there were two genetics departments: CALS and Medical. Joshua Lederberg had formed the latter as an alternative to CALS’ applied genetics. Just before MS’ arrival, there was a “blow-up” between production and basic geneticists, after which most production geneticists left for other departments.  
00:13:32	[no question] After MS joined the faculty, the department moved to a new building, which had to be retrofitted to reflect the department’s emphasis on biochemical molecular genetics. Follow-up: Equipment? Answer: MS described the outdated laboratory equipment and technology. Follow-up: Department conflict about basic laboratory needs? Answer: Yes.
00:15:50	Question: Experience as researcher in genetics? Answer: MS mentioned the genetics faculty and their seminar meetings at each other’s homes. The atmosphere was collaborative and interdisciplinary. Question: Did the group last? Answer: For about 5 years. MS mentioned various members, as well as subjects of conversation. Follow-up: Did meetings result in collaborations? Answer: Yes, in a few cases. MS described an instance of collaboration with Walter Fitch. 
00:20:52	Question: How did research in the department change over time? Answer: MS remarked on the good “flow of information” at UW-Madison, adding that he did not feel department isolation was a problem in the sciences. He cited one exception to this generalization - an incident with a “psychotic” student whose behavior ruffled feathers in another department after the student trashed its laboratory. 
00:23:25	Question: Philosophy for undergraduate education? Answer: His philosophy at any level is based on creating excitement in the topic and recognizing that student and teacher must both work hard. MS spoke about Barry Commoner, one of his teachers as Washington University, as a model. He gave “wild, wonderful” lectures, but nearly impossible tests that forced students to work collaboratively: “a boot camp for scientists.” MS followed his example, issuing take-home exams that pushed students to work harder. Follow-up: Did MS mentor graduate students in teaching? Answer: He sometimes worked with TAs, but has mostly team-taught courses, which sets constraints on teaching styles. 
00:31:01	Question: Experience as Associate Dean of Medical School? Answer: He assumed various roles in the following areas: business (unenthusiastically), research, personnel, space, and graduate studies. MS chaired a research committee that awarded grants to faculty projects. He also helped start the MD/PhD program. Much of his time was focused on personnel. It involved a great deal of busy work, as well as resolution of conflicts unsolved at the department level. 
00:35:18	[no question] MS was also the last acting Dean of the School of Applied Health Professions. Disassembling this school was a “traumatic experience” for all. 
00:36:45	Question: Did MS run a lab while acting as an administrator? Answer: No. MS was a chair (in genetics and medical genetics) for fourteen years and ran a lab for eleven of those years. His committee obligations were too time consuming. MS expressed regret at choosing administration over research. Follow-up: What would MS work on if he could start a lab now? Answer: Developmental or neuro- genetics. 
00:40:28	Question: Thoughts on the history of science? Answer: MS described the value of history in emphasizing the origins and development of ideas, as well as illustrating science as a dynamic human activity.
00:43:21	Question: Thoughts on his legacy? Answer: He cited a student’s letter that told him “you made us think.” MS thought “he made us think” would be apt words to grace his tombstone.
00:45:02	End of Session. 

END OF INTERVIEW #770