UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
				ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #744
SKLOOT, ROBERT

SKLOOT, Robert (1942- )
Professor of Theater and Drama; Associate Vice Chancellor
At UW: 1968- 

Interviewed: 2006	
Interviewer: Robert Lange
Length: 6 hours, 19 minutes

Background information; Growing up Jewish; Early interest in theater; College experience at Union College and then at Cornell; Professional directing; Work ethic, Job available at UW; Theater department changes; Vietnam War protests; Receiving tenure; Bread and butter course; Associate Vice Chancellor position; Unionizing the faculty; Building Vilas Hall; Fulbright to Israel; Chair of the department of theater; Holocaust theater; Center for Jewish studies; Changes in students expectations; Fulbright to Israel, Vienna, Chile, and Netherlands; American drama course; Living with Jewish communities in Cuba, Argentina and Turkey; Evaluations of the deans, Donna Shalala, John Wiley, and David Ward; Relationship between state legislature and Bascom Hall.  

Note: This interview was originally restricted until 2009. 

First Interview Session (January 31, 2006): Tapes 1-2 [Skloot.R.744_1.31.2006]

Tape 1/Side 1

00:00:40	Background information. Siblings, parents and grandparents. Family's work in poultry market. 

00:02:40	Mother trained to be teacher. Father very proud of educated children, his education went no further than high school. No arts background in family.

00:05:00	Born and raised in Brooklyn, NY. Went to Union College, all male. Graduated in 1963. Cornell University for graduate school. PhD in 1968 from the University of Minnesota.

00:06:40	Pleasure from performing, as early as summer camp and into high school. Third grade performance as Montezuma. Performances in college.

00:08:00	Influential models as undergraduate and in graduate school. 

00:09:15	Jewish lifestyle but Holocaust issues and history not prevalent topic in youth. He has no personal connection to Holocaust but Jewishness has directed him in his area of study and career.

00:10:50	Union College, scholarship. Family had financial difficulty. Sensitivity to issues of poverty. Description of Schenectady.  In college needed direction, found something in acting in plays. Theater is a family. 

00:15:35	In junior year help direct a play, this helped to give him direction. Ten Nights in a Ballroom.
	
00:16:25	Graduated as an English major. Did not know he wanted a career in theater. School did not have a theater program. Increased media attention to Sputnik caused a shift in focus to math and science.

00:19:05	Jewish summer camp. 

00:20:05	Rudy, first role in college. All extracurricular. Roles throughout undergraduate career. 

00:21:30	Waiting for Godot, avant garde, important for him as text and as an experience. Directed version of it when came to Madison in 1976. Also directed in Hebrew at Hebrew University in 1980. Text meaningful and influential in thoughts of theater, sees play as a friend.

00:24:50	Director, Gifford Wingate, drama teacher. Ironic view of the world, teacher, advisor and friend. Provided safe haven in play production, very important to him. Fan letter. 

00:27:30	End of side.

Tape 1/Side 2

00:27:45	More on experiences at Union College, academic role model. Plagued by finances. Worked to pay tuition, life governed by this. Father's business now obsolete. Description of father.

00:31:10	RS worked as a galley boy shipped to Africa through father's connections. 92 day trip and earned money for tuition. 

00:33:10	Selling neckties for uncle to earn money. Hardship. Working in frat houses.

00:36:35	Career resulted from parents' love of learning.  Involvement in teaching or learning fulfilling.

00:38:00	Chose English because it included drama. 

00:39:05	Cornell, fellowship in theater. Assistantship in theater shop, did not like it. 

00:41:00	Department at Cornell, speech and drama. Advisor, Marvin Carlson, commanding intelligence. Theater family, community. Not overly happy and lonely. Transitional time for him. Still acting but realized time to stop after Ibsen play directed by Carlson and received bad reviews. 

00:47:25	Interests more in directing. Professional directing job, Court Theater at the University of Chicago, Look Back in Anger, 1964. Formative in career, where he belonged. 

00:50:00	Thesis in second year. Jazz pianist friend, concert for Lorca in Spain.

00:53:30	Ph.D. at University of Minnesota, 1965. Fellowship for 3 years for directing. Professional theater environment. 

00:55:56	Second time out west. First time in high school. Met wife in Minnesota. 

00:58:20	End of tape.

Tape 2/Side 1

00:58:40	Experience at Minnesota and professional theater determined where career was to go. 

00:59:15	Role as director. Greek trilogy House of Atreus, trained with production. Celebrated atmosphere. 

01:01:00	 The actor, Douglas Campbell was a great influence on RS. Going flat on stage. 

01:04:10	Performed on the university showboat during the summer. Frank Whiting, director. 

01:06:35	Depth in acting. Lead in musical, last time on stage as an actor. Acting does not give him pleasure like it gives others. Accentuates problems. 

01:09:25	Doctorate in literature. Created subject, the uses of time in modern drama. Chapter of dissertation first piece published, validated it. 

01:10:30	Fellowship academic management. Finished on time unlike many.

01:12:30	Work ethic. Work-oriented and receiving pleasure from it but also a need to break rules.

01:13:50	Looking for job as professor in theater. Interview at Wisconsin, breakfast at Memorial Union. 

01:15:55	1973, department voted to change name from speech to communication arts. 1974 decided to split the department, creating department of theater and drama. Believed it would help to resolve the problems. Junior member of faculty. 

01:18:20	Department still riven with some problems. Dark time in the department. 

01:19:25	Hiring process. Asked to join faculty in 1968. 

01:21:45	Bread and butter course, department wanted someone who would be good with course.  

01:23:00	Began teaching in August and married in November. 

01:23:30	Difficult time nationally when began teaching. Vietnam War. Involved in anti-war activities.  None of the faculty that participated in activities were kept on for tenure. Discontent with administration.

01:25:45	Time for tenure came, letter saying promoted to tenure. Credits being a popular teacher. Outer focus on world not concerned with tenure. Stayed with bread and butter course for 19 years, built it up. 

01:29:05	End of side.

Tape 2/Side 2

01:29:15	More on basic theater course. Growing popularity of course. 

01:30:25	Another undergraduate course, literature, another bread and butter. Ended with this one in 1980. 

01:31:00	Early years marked by hostility towards colleagues. Directed within department. RS taught 3 courses per semester. 

01:32:00	Surprised to find how much he liked teaching. 

01:33:25	Wisconsin players. 

01:35:10	Spring 1969, Wisconsin Players season. Brecht on Brecht. Became director. 

01:38:05	Great Police Riot in Madison. Arrested 700 students. Advertised that they wanted to bail students out. Chair of theater division said could not pass out because leaflets would litter the Union. Compromise. 

01:43:50	Perplexity of being granted tenure. Believes Fred Haberman, man who hired him, took up defense so he could be granted tenure. 

01:44:10	In 1996 became Associate Vice Chancellor.  Difficult years, most friends not part of university. Social group made up of students or graduate students in theatre and drama. Now in year 37 at Wisconsin.

01:46:20	Not disappointed to go back east when applying for jobs. Decision whether to join professional theater company or go into academic work. Enjoyed teaching and it was a steady job. 

01:48:30	Some regrets, spent some time looking for jobs at other academic institutes in the 1970s. Interview at Amherst College.

01:49:40	In the late 1970s and 80s tried to unionize the faculty. Many deeply resistant to the idea, especially the administration. 

01:51:30	RS was very active in AFT 23 Local. Evaporated in the 1980s. Believed to be powerful. 

01:53:10	TA strike. Faculty union would not cross picket line, found places off campus to teach classes. Taught at Jewish student center. Photo in Wisconsin State Journal. 

01:55:35	Spring of 1980 notified that he won the Chancellor’s teaching award. 

01:56:20	End of tape. 

Second Interview Session (February 13, 2006): Tapes 3-4 [Skloot.R.744_2.13.2006 AND 2.23.2006]

Tape 3/Side 1

00:00:35	Founding of the theater department.  The building of Vilas Hall was controversial. Cut building funds for the building, reduced facilities. 

00:07:45	Problems with Vilas space, complaints about usability of theatre space. Floor problem. Set limits. 

00:12:50	Vilas part of anti-war legacy. Built for radio, TV, and film, but not for theatre. 

00:13:45	Theatre named after Ronald Mitchell. 

00:16:30	Located in own building. Rehearsal rooms not large enough. 

00:18:20	Different units have different colored doors, risky architectural scheme. 

00:19:40	Negative impact on the department members and his work. 

00:20:45	Second theater in the building, the black box. 

00:22:00	Gilbert Hemsley, lighting designer, well renowned for his work. Internal turbulence because he was unable to be in class, traveling the world to do lighting. 

00:27:40	Split from Communication Arts, a relief for both sides. 

00:28:25	The first chair of the new theatre department was not from the theater program but from the old TV/radio program. 

00:30:50	End of tape. 

Tape 3/Side 2

00:31:00	Theater now united under one roof, in one space. 

00:32:00	Problem with leadership strength. 

00:34:10	In 1978, received first sabbatical, Wisconsin did not have a sabbatical system.  One of five given. Department executives refused to give him leave for sabbatical. Being held hostage to dean. Knew he would not get funds to replace him.

00:39:50	Head of department, Jonathon Curvin, agreed to teach his bread and butter course. Gave insight into how nasty and crippled in its mission the department was. Great sacrifice for Curvin, lasted about 2 weeks. 

00:42:20	Department riven by internal problems. Esther Jackson, colleague, first black woman to get Ph.D. in theater. Strong willed but flakey, insufferable. Led one of the factions in the department, Wisconsin will have best theater department in the nation, take no prisoners and take down anyone in the way. Friends in Washington. 

00:47:25	When department split, opportunity to bring Alan Schneider to university, became America’s number one stage director. The director of choice. He was interested in coming to work with Wisconsin players. 

00:49:10	People in Speech side called Schneider to tell him not to come because the theatre department to be was in such disarray that it would be negative for his career. 

00:50:10	Donna Shalala. International conference on Clifford Odets with members of Group Theater. Propose that Alan Schneider receive an honorary degree. Approved but had to be present to receive it, killed before he got the opportunity. 

00:54:00	Still wanted to award degree at conference, Shalala agreed. Found acceptance speech for degree and it was read at conference. 

00:56:00	Schneider donated papers to Historical Society before he was offered position here. 

00:57:20	1980 tired of swinish behavior and started to look elsewhere for employment. Affecting all aspects of his life. Fulbright, yearlong to Israel. Important because it gave a year away from department. 

00:58:25	Year in Israel, formative moment in career. When RS came back he felt had a more adult perspective. 

01:01:40	End of side.

Tape 4/Side 1

01:02:00	Return from Israel. Directing plays, unionizing faculty. 1980s not much to comment on. Changes in personnel, deaths and retirements. William Elwood, chair for 11 years.  

01:06:15	In 1990 he took over as chair of the department, had been with department 22 years. His three years as chair helped to settle the department. 

01:07:50	Very bizarre administrative structure, 2 headed monster. The chair is in charge of the more academic aspects of the department, while the secondary administrator is more of a director of theater, artistic director. Uneasiness as to what they wanted to do. 

01:09:10	Served as director of theater for one year, his secondary administrator was Del Louis. Must have two people that get along and see the department mission as the same. Budget issues.  Tension built into the system because of the budget. 

01:11:30	Costume people renting costumes for Halloween and bringing in an income– he did not know about it. Legally wrong caused by budget problems. Kept scrupulous records just in case but did not stop it. 

01:14:00	90% of problems caused by 5% of the people. Two colleagues were terrible teachers.  One had severe physical health problems, affected abilities. The other not a strong candidate for tenure, but fear of losing faculty.

01:15:20	Change, teaching foremost over research. 

01:17:05	As director had a problem of terrible teachers, and was forced to spend large amounts of time deflecting the dean on behalf of the teachers. Low class enrollment. Burden fell to him, he felt used. They stayed in the department and he left chair position. 

01:20:25	Two faculty members did not shake commitment to tenure. Feels that here at Wisconsin tenure is not given to those unworthy or undeserving, at least on paper. 

01:22:00	Wants to try to have faculty to feel comfortable with evaluations. Tried to do this while he was chair. 

01:22:30	Race and gender entered as significant factors into the picture, University trying to get a more diverse faculty. Theatre department always one of the best for diversity. 

01:24:00	In 1990, sued twice as chair of department. Day he came in and the day he went out. First sued by faculty member who had been let go, not granted tenure. Sued department for sexual (gender) discrimination because she was a lesbian. She lost the case. 

01:26:30	Second case, student who had signed up for class in shop, chopped off top of finger with band saw, negligence on part of department for lack of instruction. He was dropped from suit. University paid large sum of money to student because it costs more to litigate then to settle. 

01:28:05	More stable time, good hires. Sally Baines, probably America’s greatest dance critic and fine theater historian as well. Brilliant work here. Baines suffered a stroke and was forced to resign. 

01:29:35	Dean Phil Certain was supportive of theater department. Skloot was one of four associate vice chancellors.

01:31:40	Hiring in the department.

01:32:20	End of side. 

Third Interview Session (February 23, 2006): Tape 4 [This portion of interview exists in the same digital file as the preceding interview: Skloot.R.744_2.13.2006 AND 2.23.2006]

Tape 4/Side 2 

01:32:30	Hire a full time stage manager. Everything runs more smoothly, regularized. 

01:33:40	Theater of Holocaust. Personally interesting. Did not really come into discussion in the United States until 1979. 

01:35:35	1978 directed play about Holocaust. Contacted playwright. Formative moment for him, deepened his understanding of it. Cast the play in Madison, very complicated, needed music, etc. 

01:38:40	Difficulty of sets, how real it should look, ghetto in Poland. Three large cubes on wheels to be moved around on stage in different configurations. 

01:42:20	Pleased by production but audiences did not always like it.

01:42:40	Slide screens above stage about history of ghettos. 	

01:44:00	Mordechai Chaim Rumkowski, protagonist, real person, both the savior and the 	devil. Longest living ghetto in Europe in 1944. Did not have previous knowledge 	about character but after play did research to learn more.  Historical figure of 	Shakespearean size.		
01:46:05	Play in 1978 and talked about it around the world since. Good next Holocaust play 	done in Madison. Warning to be prepared in ethical armament. 
01:47:40	Reactions to the plays. Both bad and praising reviews. 
01:50:25	His mother came to see a performance. Held a talk back for the audience to share 	comments and opinions. 
01:52:15	Growing up Jewish something that made him prone to pursuing theater of the 	Holocaust. As a kid he had no contact with the Holocaust. Polish couples, 	Holocaust survivors. 
01:53:45	When took trip to Poland, took gifts from Polish couples to take to former teacher 	living in Warsaw.  Shimon Datner, dean of Polish historians of the Holocaust. 	Dense articles in Polish for Jewish Historical Institute. RS sent gift for Datner’s 	daughter when returned. Dotner wrote letter back, including a play to share with 	students. Play actual event from his life about his first baby. Included in his book. 
01:59:30	His daughter to whom RS sent the gift was on the cover of New York Times 	Magazine, leading the rediscovery of Judaism in Poland. 
02:00:27	End of tape. 

[The following portion of the interview exists in a separate file grouped with the subsequent interview: Skloot.R.744_2.23.2006 AND 2.24.2006]
Tape 5/Side 1
00:00:30	Course: Theater and the Holocaust, popular on campus. Journals. First of its kind 	in the country. Draws in a great variety of majors. 
00:02:10	Book on teaching the Holocaust by a colleague, contributed his thoughts. 
00:03:30	One of his points in his courses is the question of hope for the human race. 	Depleted of energies and walk into field of despairs. Emotional component cannot 	be omitted. Holocaust studies and the more recent Holocaust and Genocide 	studies.  
00:05:40	Never again, but has happened again. Cambodia, Rwanda or Bosnia, talking about 	humanity. 
00:07:00	Holocaust survivors feel that the Holocaust is being taken advantage of for artistic 	expression. Somewhat fading because there are fewer survivors. Believes in 	giving 	respect but each survivor deals with the memories and how/what should be 	remembered 	in their own way. 
00:10:30	Symbol of the pink triangle, how it has changed in 50 years, was bad, now a 	symbol of pride. 
00:11:40	Devoted his life to this work, learned a lot about himself and the world and his 	syllabus is a reflection of this. His syllabi have a single theme: what would I have 	done if I had been there then? 
00:12:40	Exhausting to teach this course. Evaluations. About half are Jewish students, 	those who are not approach course with some hesitation. 
00:14:30	Story about student stood up with a poster of a dead fetus, saying this was the real Holocaust. 
00:16:20	Teach one more time before retires in the near future. Anecdote about senior citizens taking course on American theater. 
00:18:40	Center for Jewish Studies at the university. Late 1980s, proposal for Jewish studies program. Donna Shalala agreed, enough money had to be raised for it to be established. Became director in 1999 and stayed until 2002, held concurrently with associate vice chancellorship.  Wrote by-laws and did little fund-raising. Does offer a major but is not a department. 
00:20:50	Professors have joint appointments with Jewish studies. 
00:24:00	This university was the first to have a program in Hebrew and Semitic studies. This year marks the 50 year anniversary of the program. 
00:28:30	Creation of the program a net positive gain for the university. 
00:29:45	Position as associate vice chancellor. In 1996, a vacancy in one of the four positions. Suggested to him to apply. 
00:30:35	End of side. 
Tape 5/Side 2
00:30:50	Reputation of being involved with certain activities on campus. Part time position for 6 years. Opportunity to find out more about himself as an academic citizen. Appalled about how little he knew about the university. 
00:32:40	Portfolio for undergraduate education across the university. 
00:33:10	Complete and total respect for John Wiley. Lucky he took that time and was there when Wiley was provost. 
00:33:50	Law passes stating all secondary education teachers have a background check. Question: who pays for the test? Mentors, Art Hove and Joe Corry. 
00:35:25	Enjoyed the position because he had no budget, in sixth year got a budget of $10,000. 
00:37:20	Spent a lot of time creating the undergraduate research day. He had more focus on pilot programs, ideas and theories. One course a year each semester. 
00:40:00	Parody of Varsity; “Sparsity”. Left with some regret in 2002, but grateful for opportunity.
00:41:30	Future of undergraduate education. Feels there are many great teachers on campus. Teaching academy.
00:44:00	Perennial issues, teacher evaluations. Women more harshly evaluated than men. Getting evaluations on line. School of Human Ecology and DoIt. 
00:46:20	Changes in student body, more women than men in most universities across the country. Including incoming class. Social implications. 
00:48:10	Always looked at self as a teacher, a noble occupation. First obligation of all teachers is to teach well. Teaching here at Madison.
00:51:50	MTV generation, changes in expectations.  Issue of the student as a client, a purchaser of an education and how this has changed expectation. Grade inflation. 
00:53:50	Problem with years it takes some students to graduate. Contract devised for students to sign stating that they would graduate after four years. Students stay in school longer so can be better educated, more educated. 
00:56:05	Students coming in are brighter now than even 15 years ago. Top 5% of students as good as the best students anywhere. Middle range of students has improved. 
00:57:40	End of tape. 

Fourth Interview Session (February 24, 2006): Tape 6 [This portion of interview exists in the same digital file as the preceding interview: Skloot.R.744_2.23.2006 AND 2.24.2006]
Tape 6/Side 1
00:57:50	Fulbright leaves. Brightest times of his life. 
00:59:40	First to Israel, year long. Teach about America through the theater. Directed a play in Hebrew with only women. Struggle to put the play on. 
01:03:00	Bureaucracy and lack of cast enthusiasm ruined the performance. Used sand for the production. 
01:04:55	Israeli culture. Jewish time, nothing ever happens on time. Israelis are rude, did not know this when he went. Bible reading in the desert. 
01:09:05	Such a good experience, RS wanted to apply again. Application and selection process. 
01:12:00	In 1988, applied for Fulbright in Vienna. University of Vienna, American drama course and a seminar. Vienna wonderful, Viennese not as wonderful. Bounty for students. 
01:15:50	Did not teach course about theatre of the Holocaust, did lecture about it though. American studies libraries. Speaking tours in Austria. 
01:16:40	Austrians very polite. Small memorial to Jews who died in Holocaust in Vienna. History of anti-Semitism in Vienna. 
01:19:40	Daily life, daughters’ school, strolling, and open air market.     
01:21:10	Plays used in American drama courses. 
01:22:20	When arrived in Vienna, none of their large suitcases had made it on to the flight. 
01:24:00	In 1995, applied again and went to Chile. Valparaiso, Catholic University. Many students were Chileans who wanted to teach English.   Five months. 
01:28:16	End of side. 

Tape 6/Side 2
01:28:25	Difference in Chilean customs for young people. 
01:31:00	Tried one more time for a senior position Fulbright. Spring of 2005 lived in Netherlands, no children. 
01:32:30	American drama course, all students in the English department. Multinational group. Ended course with a dramatic reading to speak English in public. 
01:33:00	Read the Laramie Project about hate crimes pertaining to homosexuality in a small town. Important play for the time. 
01:35:40	Holocaust seminar for six graduate students. Produced a play. Thrilling experience.
01:37:40	Anne Frank of interest. Theatrical modifications. Anne Frank house. 
01:38:15	Extraordinary to receive 4 Fulbright scholarships. Enjoyment of international teaching and students. 
01:40:45	Extraordinary students or have gone on to great careers. If a student wants a job in performance, or one of recognition they should go to a school where one can be seen; not Wisconsin. Jane Kaczmarek. Produces Ph.D.s. 
01:45:00	Opportunity to take students abroad. In 2003, went to Cuba to see Jewish community there. Synagogue. Difficulty of life in Cuba. Embargo of U.S. humanitarian aid. 
01:48:55	Two years ago went to Argentina with student group to live in Jewish community. In two weeks will be going to Turkey to live with that Jewish community. Enriches teaching. 
01:51:30	Evaluation and observation on university’s administration and deans specifically L&S deans. 1968, turbulent anti-war years, first exposure to administration in 1970s. Don Crawford, brief relationship. David Cronon, did not get along with him, only time RS felt penalized. 
01:55:55	First male faculty member to apply for medical leave for a birth. Did not want to be an administrator like Cronon. 
01:57:15	Phil Certain, RS has a great respect for him. Highly respected, knew the university and not afraid to be strong in his position. Friend to the theater. Detached from administration while on Bascom.
01:58:45	David Ward and Donna Shalala. 
01:59:00	End of tape. 
[The following portion of the interview exists in a separate file: Skloot.R.744_2.24.2006]

Tape 7/Side 1 only 
00:00:15	Donna Shalala continued. Acting as a grandmother in a performance. Never learned her lines. Once the performance was over RS decided to give her a gift, a transcript with false courses and grades reflecting her performance. 
00:01:52	“Crisis time” of the 1970s. Committee on the use of space for outside activities, ROTC and recruiting on campus. Very right wing committee.  Gordon Baldwin. Ally Mark Borns, student from law school. Put out a minority report. 
00:05:45	RS discusses Donna Shalala and her contributions to university. Came to defy the Wisconsin image. From the East and came with tons of positive baggage, networks from the East. David Ward, provost. Astute politician in a public sphere. Hard for her to fit Wisconsin mold. Quintessentially Wisconsin while she was here.  Faculty appreciated her in her public visibility, not much care about academic credentials for chancellor but would for the provost position.    
00:10:12	RS discusses David Ward and feels he did good work. Able administrator but underappreciated. But did let his temper go on occasion. 
00:12:12	John Wiley. One of the smartest people RS has ever met. Some difficult times in the recent past. Future of the university. Respected by the faculty. University in first class hands. 
00:13:40	Relationship between state legislature and Bascom Hall. University an easy target because of politics today. Contraceptives for women students through student health services. Teaching assistants payment problem. No longer competitive.
00:18:31	Does not see it getting better in the near future. Gubernatorial election. Not optimistic about future. 
00:19:56	Bananas placed everywhere in office. Put a banana in every production he has done since 1971. 
00:23:30	End of side.  End of tape.  End of interview.
END