UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #397
BROMLEY, HANK

BROMLEY, Hank (1960- )
Graduate Student, Educational Policy Studies
At UW: 1990-1995

Interviewed: 1991-1992	
Interviewer: Barry Teicher
Length: 3.5 hours

Background; Reasons for coming to UW; Background in women's studies; Restructuring in Women's Studies Department; Reaction to his acceptance of TAship in Women's Studies; Semester as TA; Clarence Thomas-Anita Hill controversy; Class evaluation; Publicity regarding appointment; TAship in Educational Policy Studies.

Tape 1/Side 1

00:00:02	Interview concerns HB's role as the first male Teaching Assistant (TA) in the Women's Studies Department.

00:00:28	HB, 31 years old, was born in Connecticut in 1960, went to the Massachusetts Institute for Technology (MIT) for five years.  HB majored in math and computer science, but also took several courses in the humanities and social sciences.

00:01:16	After MIT, HB looked for work to combine his technical skills and his political and social interests.  The only technical jobs which were politically/socially oriented were with defense contractors.

00:03:02	HB took a job with a linguistics professor in Sweden for a year, and then spent two years working for Bell Lab in New Jersey.  These jobs were intellectually challenging, but not personally fulfilling.

00:03:43	While in New Jersey, HB got involved with Technica, a Nicaraguan solidarity organization, and traveled to Nicaragua.  He decided to focus full time on political and social issues by going back to school in the education field.

00:04:49	HB impressed by Madison's education program, and decided to attend the UW after receiving a fellowship.

00:09:29	HB heard that Mike Apple was doing excellent work that HB would find interesting.  

00:11:43	HB took a broad range of courses at first that reflected a broad interest in varieties of oppression.

00:13:27	Apple wanted HB to do a critique of the place of computers in schools.  HB resisted the suggestion at first because he didn't want to be typecast as a technical person.

00:14:58	HB took an American women's history course during his first semester, and a feminism and Marxism seminar his second semester, which was taught by Eric Wright.

00:17:14	There was some concern with the possibility of HB's teaching an introductory class in feminism to students who might not yet be secure in their views regarding feminism.

00:18:57	HB took an advanced seminar in Women's Studies taught by Elaine Marks, and was the only male in a class of twenty-five.  As part of the class, he did a joint class project with a female classmate on their experience as part of the class.

00:21:42	HB took a seminar on the history of feminist theory from Gerda Lerner in which he was again the only male in the class.

00:23:49	HB's first publications were in rewriting educational literature to include aspects of feminist theory.  Then he shifted to the role of technology in society and in education, in which he did not incorporate feminist ideas.  Now HB is trying to combine a study of feminism with research on technology and society.

00:25:16	HB is active in the Teaching Assistant Association, and is co-president for 1991-92.

00:25:58	HB remembers no difficult experiences in his feminism classes.  Normally, his participation was viewed as a novel situation with advantages and disadvantages.

00:28:47	HB explains that women developing a feminist identity go through stages of consciousness-raising that often yield angry reactions toward men in general.  These are appropriate and necessary for the process of transformation.  HB has witnessed some such reactions in classes, but anger was never directed toward him personally.  HB says he has always been warmly welcomed by women who are more developed and secure in their identities.

00:33:34	HB felt, at times, like a guest in classes, and didn't see his role as interfering with the personal, emotional and intellectual expression/growth of the women in class by speaking out against derogatory statements about men in general.

00:36:30	In the spring of 1991, HB was looking for funding or work for the 1991-92 school year.  He hadn't done any teaching work at the university level, so he wanted a teaching experience.  He was considering a lecturer's position in the education department, when he saw an advertisement for TA positions in the Women's Studies Department.

00:40:44	HB explained in his application that he would understand if the department felt his presence as a TA would be inappropriate.

00:42:21	The title of the class he is TAing in is "Gender and Social Institutions," with a theme of how gender is a social construction.  HB felt that a man teaching such a class would be a reminder that gender should not determine the functions of individuals.  

00:44:54	Apple was supportive, but wanted HB to know it would be difficult.

00:45:24	HB’s application was initially misfiled, but once the instructor saw it, she gave HB and interview. 

00:47:03	End of side.

Tape 1/Side 2

00:47:18	HB's interview, by Virginia Sapiro of the Women's Studies Department, focused on how male privilege might be dealt with in the classroom.

00:48:13	When he took the job, HB thought the issue of a man as a TA had already been dealt with within the department.  The issue was not discussed because TA hiring is the responsibility of each instructor for her own class.

00:50:41	The entire Women's Studies program had just gone through a restructuring that left a bitter residue in interdepartmental relationships.  This divisiveness further fueled the controversy over HB's presence as a TA.

00:51:25	Restructuring controversy centered on a decision to restrict decision making for the program to the faculty, instead of allowing a broader participation by students and community members.

00:56:07	HB reports that some graduate students saw the restructuring decision as a power move by some faculty to protect their positions in mainstream academics, and therefore saw it as engaging in tactics used by the men in academia who had always excluded women from important decisions.

00:57:14	HB doesn't agree with this opinion, but thinks that some faculty may not be sensitive enough to how their actions might be interpreted negatively by others.

01:00:01	After restructuring controversy, HB’s hiring was seen by some as part of faculty mainstream agenda. Sapiro did make gender an issue in HB's interview.  Gender makes some difference, so are the overall opportunities worth the risks?

01:03:17	There was no formal arena for discussion in the Women's Studies Department concerning HB's role as a TA.  HB was disappointed that this didn't occur.  He made an effort to contact faculty members on both sides of the issue.

01:06:41	HB wavered as to his desire for the job because of the faculty disagreements.  He finally decided that his decision should be based on his own estimation of the value of his role as a TA.

01:08:59	Sapiro stood by her decision.  She said she would understand if HB decided against the job.  No one came to Sapiro to discuss the matter.  HB reports that some graduate students felt it wouldn't help to discuss the situation with Sapiro, and that such a discussion might actually lead to reprisals.

01:12:01	Each side thought they represented the majority, and there was not much informal discussion between the two sides.

01:14:28	The period of uncertainty lasted 2-3 weeks before HB made his decision. HB sent an open letter (on file with this index) about his decision to accept the TA position to everyone he had spoken with. It was not broadly distributed to avoid publicity outside the department. 

01:19:19	After making his decision, HB was no longer included in informal discussions concerning the appropriateness of a male as a TA.

01:21:08	The controversy opened up a broader discussion concerning the role of men in feminist issues and feminist organizations.  Still, the decision to be made was whether it was appropriate for HB to be one of three TA's in a particular class.

01:24:46	HB started doing informal reading on feminist issues as an undergraduate student at MIT.  He traces his interest, in part, to feminist friends he had who attended Wellesley, a women's college.

01:26:32	During his first year at Madison, HB was romantically involved with a woman who began going through a process of coming to terms with previous experiences as a victim of sexual assault.  This required her to "clean out" her sexual experiences and had an effect on her sexual relationship with HB.  HB was unsure of how to deal with the anger and distrust which were a result of this woman's process of recovery.  He became involved with the Rape Crisis Center, which has a program for people who are close to rape victims.

01:31:00	This experience convinced him that he was indirectly hurt by sexual assault against women, and that he wanted to work toward social change in this area.

01:34:01	End of side.

Tape 2/Side 1

01:34:04	During the first class, Sapiro did not make HB's presence an issue.

01:37:03	The welcome week issue of the Daily Cardinal included an article about HB and the Women's Studies Department.  HB assumes that because of this, most students already knew about the issue.

01:38:15	HB brought up the issue of his presence in his classes so as to qualify it as a legitimate topic of discussion.  He did not begin with or focus on this issue, as he does not want himself to become the issue in class.

01:41:28	HB identified three possible groups of students to his class: Those who thought his presence was a great idea, those who were unsure, and those who were totally against his role as a TA.  HB hopes all three groups will contribute toward his role, in part, as an "experiment," but feels that anyone who so wishes should be allowed to transfer to a different section.

01:46:31	HB hopes the issue of his influence on the quality of the class will come up in context during the semester. 

01:48:57	End of side.

Tape 2/Side 2

Side is blank.

End of Part I of interview.

Part II of Interview.   January 22, 1992

Tape 3/Side 1

00:00:02	HB reports that his tenure as a Teaching Assistant (TA) for the Women's-Studies Department went well.   He reports that most students did not see a male TA as problematic for the class, although a few students were unhappy about HB's role. 

00:05:10	Only a few of HB's initial students decided to drop the course; and no students switched discussion sections because of being put in HB's section.

00:06:51	Four weeks into the semester, HB asked his students to submit anonymous evaluations of the class, which he reports were encouraging.  There were a few criticisms concerning HB's leading of discussions and responses to comments made in class by students.

00:07:56	HB required that the students write reaction papers occasionally throughout the semester.  Often, students would write about the class itself.

00:08:27	The final course evaluations were primarily positive.  There were some negative comments, although HB reports that he doesn't think they represented more than the normal amount of dissatisfaction which a certain percentage of students will have with any course.

00:09:44	One female student wrote on her evaluation that, although HB's work was good, she felt that having a man as a TA in a Women's Studies course was counterproductive.  Another female student encouraged having more male TAs in Women's-Studies.  Some students said the course changed their point of view.

00:11:38	HB's overall ranking by students was 4.08 of a possible 5, which he reports is high in terms of the overall university average and about average for Women's Studies TAs.

00:12:25	HB talks about the tone of the course, which he describes as gradualist.  In retrospect, HB says that the course might have been improved by introducing stronger feminist viewpoints more quickly in the course; but that also has disadvantages in alienating students who aren't prepared for such attacks on what they may view as normal or proper social structures and gender identities.

00:16:14	The course took a gradualist tone, in part, because of the trend of attacking political correctness.  The professor and the TAs wanted to create an environment in which everyone could freely express themselves without fear of being condemned because of their views.

00:17:06	In general, says HB, students did not engage in highly emotional debate, although there were occasions of angry reactions to such things as the Clarence Thomas Senate confirmation hearings and the lack of credibility given to accusations by Anita Hill.

00:20:48	HB reports that the presence of male students in his discussion sections did not create any problems.  A few of the male students talked a lot, while others seemed to feel like guests, and spoke very little.  On average, the male students probably spoke more often than the female students.  HB discusses why this might have been the case.

00:24:17	HB talks about the feelings of female students toward the male students in the class.  He goes on to discuss an illustrative instance concerning two female students who commented to HB that the two male members of the discussion section were dominating the discussion.  HB goes on to tell how this conflict was resolved in a discussion between these two female students and one of the male students.

00:29:11	The Clarence Thomas/Anita Hill debate in the press occurred at the same time that the class was discussing sexual harassment. In general, HB reports, his students were offended by the confirmation proceedings and perplexed as to why Hill's testimony had so little effect on their outcome and coverage in the press. 

00:38:45	HB's discussion sections discussed the William Kennedy Smith rape trial much less, in part because it began fairly late in the semester and after the sections had discussed issues related to the trial.

00:39:55	HB reports that publicity stemming from his role as the first male TA in the Women's Studies Department was unpleasant and often inaccurate, but did not really affect his discussion sections.  HB talks about one particular newspaper article that appeared in one of the campus papers, and his decision not to respond publicly to it. The article mentioned above is on file at the Oral History Project.

00:47:02	End of side.

Tape 3/Side 2

00:47:17	HB continues a discussion of newspaper articles concerning his TA position in Women's Studies.

00:48:37	HB talks about the controversy over his role as a TA within the department, including faculty, other TAs, and graduate students.  He reports that before taking the job, he sought out people in the department in trying to collect as much input as possible in order to make his decision.  After the beginning of the semester, he no longer actively sought such feedback, and reports that no one approached him on the subject.

00:51:18	HB thinks that his successful experience as a TA may encourage the hiring of male TAs in the future, although hiring decisions are still left to individual instructors; however, HB also thinks that there are few male graduate students who are both interested in becoming a TA for the program and qualified.

00:53:05	HB comments on how his experience affected him.  He reports that it is still too early for him to have a good perspective on his experience as a TA.
	
00:55:29	Knowing what he does now, HB says he would make the same decision again, although he might have waited a semester after the eruption of the controversy.  He reports that he might apply to be a TA for Women's Studies in the future.

00:57:01	HB is currently teaching his own class as a lecturer in Educational Policy Studies for a class called "School and Society."  He plans to include some attention to gender issues in this class.

01:00:11	End of Interview.

END of Oral History #397