UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #1323
BERRY, RICHARD F.

BERRY, RICHARD F. (1944-)
Vietnam War Veteran
At UW: NA

Interviewed: 	2013 (2 sessions)
Interviewer: 	Donald G. Farrow & Joshua Birchall
Index by: 	Jill Slaight
Length: 	2 hours, 1 minute

Abstract: In his 2013 interviews with Donald G. Farrow and Joshua Birchall, Richard Berry described his experiences as a pilot in the Assault Helicopter Battalion of the First Cavalry Division during the Vietnam War. Berry spoke on the following topics: his reasons for joining the Armed Forces; flight school; his tour in Vietnam from May 1967 to May 1968; assault missions; other helicopter missions; landing maneuvers; Hueys; helicopter weaponry; Khe Sanh; the Tet Offensive, LZ English; the North Vietnamese Army; drug use; helicopter gear and safety. This interview was conducted for inclusion into the UW-Madison Archives Oral History Collection. 

Key Words: Vietnam War, United States Armed Forces, helicopters, Hueys, weaponry, pilots, gunners, POWs, Operation Pegasus, the Tet Offensive, Khe Sanh, combat missions, logistics missions, landing zones, LZ English, LZ Evans. 

First Interview Session (April 17, 2013): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction (Donald Farrow)

00:00:08	Question: Berry’s duty station in Vietnam? Answer: Richard Berry (RB) was deployed in May 1968 under Unit A Company 229 Assault Helicopter Battalion of the 1st Cavalry Division at LZ English, a base along the coast. In January 1968, his company moved to LZ Evans, farther north on the coastal plain. RB served there until returning in May 1968. 

00:01:20	Question: His duties? Answer: RB had enlisted in the Army through helicopter flight school. After a year of training stateside, he became a warrant officer helicopter pilot. Follow-up: What kind of helicopter did RB fly? Answer: The Huey (officially called the UH1 Iroquois). RB briefly described two different Huey models. 

00:02:48	Question: What missions did RB fly? Answer: Berry outlined three main missions: combat assaults (carrying infantry into landing zones), logistics (providing supplies to infantry in the field), and extractions (bringing field units back to base camp). He also touched on less common missions: nighttime emergency re-supply, insertion of long range reconnaissance teams, “lightning bug” missions to identify and attack enemies after dark, and non-combat transports of USO troops. 

00:07:02	Question: What was night flying like? Answer: Dangerous. Pilots lacked night vision goggles. The scarcity of lights on the ground made it easy for pilots to become disoriented, no matter their skill. Helicopters made lights-out approaches to landing zones to prevent the enemy from spotting them. RB mentioned “pucker factor” and Donald Farrow (DF) asked him to clarify. RB explained it simply meant being scared.

00:10:03	Question: Logistical communication required in missions? Answer: Field operations were oriented around the use of helicopters. As a result, a great deal of trust and cooperation existed between infantry and aviation units.  Berry described the radios used to communicate with men on the ground. 

00:11:48	Question: Logistics and communication involved with a larger mission? Answer: RB detailed combat assault procedures, mentioning the types of officers who led them. The helicopter landings involved in these assaults took place on a narrow time frame (and were timed with precision) because of artillery assaults, enemy presence, and the threat of booby traps. 

00:15:47	Question: What formations did he fly? Answer: Mainly two. RB described the tail formation in which one aircraft directly followed another. Then he described the V formation, which allowed pilots an unobstructed view of the landing zone while also providing door gunners with overlapping fields of fire. The terrain of the landing zone dictated their formations and strategies of approach. 

00:19:32	Question: What armaments were helicopters equipped with? Answer: The door guns were M60 machine guns mounted on swiveling pedestals that absorbed the weapons’ recoil. The helicopter’s crew chief served as the right side gunner; the left side gunner was trained as a crew chief and awaiting assignment as one. 

00:21:30	Question: What dangers did RB face? Answer: RB’s aircraft took hits but was never shot down. He commented that “hot LZ’s” (e.g. dangerous landing zones) were infrequent, despite their prevalence in popular literature on Vietnam. He noted that most hits occurred on logistics flights rather than combat missions. Follow-up: How were helicopters protected? Answer: Crew members wore heavy chest plates or “chicken plates” and pilots sat in armored seats. 

00:24:00	Question: RB’s training? Answer: RB described helicopter training at Fort Wolters, Texas and Fort Rucker, Alabama, praising his instructor pilots. 

00:25:47	Question: Life at the base and preparation for missions? Answer: Crew chiefs were responsible for the aircraft’s daily maintenance, whereas pilots had secondary duty assignments. RB described base camp life as “Spartan.” Follow-up: Any attacks on the base itself? Answer:  Yes. LZ English was never attacked on the perimeter but sometimes mortared. On these occasions, pilots had to temporarily move their helicopters to another base; they happily obliged, as it meant they could benefit from the other base’s comparatively cushier conditions. 

00:28:08	Question: What was the range of the missions RB flew? Answer: All were short range. They needed to keep the infantry within the range of the artillery at all times (e.g. within 7 miles). RB shared some details from his flight log to demonstrate the brevity of missions, many of which were less than 30 minutes each.

00:29:58	Question:  The largest mission he flew? Answer: It was a combined operation with the Marines called Operation Pegasus. They moved a battalion of infantry in one single lift. Most assaults entailed moving a single company in several lifts. 

00:31:22	Question: Did he participate in medevac missions? Answer: Yes, however Air Ambulance Hueys typically conducted these missions, as they possessed better equipment and training. Occasionally nighttime emergency supply missions involved extraction of lightly wounded men. 

00:33:19	Question: The Tet Offensive? Answer: At the company level, they did not know it was coming, even though it had prompted their relocation to the demilitarized zone. 

00:34:55	Question: Relationship with the Marines? Answer: Operation Pegasus was the most significant joint operation, however coordination occurred above the company level. RB did not transport Marines. 

00:35:44	Question: Experiences as a door gunner? Answer: Although RB was a pilot, he voluntarily opted to try out the door gunner position. Gunners would not fire unless fired upon and given express orders from the aircraft commander. Follow-up: Had he received training with the M60? Answer: No. 

00:38:07	Question: How did Huey models compare? Answer:  RB detailed the different models of Huey helicopters that he flew in Vietnam. The newer H model had a larger engine than the C model, which could lift a great deal but did not fly as fast. RB briefly contrasted each model’s weaponry. 

00:41:43	Question: How did RB spend his time, apart from flying? Answer: As a non-commissioned officer, his primary duty was flying. RB described one commissioned commander’s secondary duties as a contrast to his own, which were minimal. DF asked RB to elaborate on his role as assistant operations officer in moving the company to a new base camp LZ Evans. RB related the process of moving equipment and vehicles to the new camp. 

00:45:56	End of session. 	 
 
Second Interview Session (April 19, 2013): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction (Joshua Birchall)

00:00:08	[No question] Richard Berry (RB) began by underscoring differences in past and present Armed Forces. In the 1960s, the draft remained in effect. Students – particularly those at a land grant institution – were expected to serve.  RB graduated from high school in 1962 and attended the University of Connecticut. He eventually dropped out, losing his deferment. RB harbored a longstanding interest in aviation and investigated an opportunity to join flight school through the United States Army. Enlistment in that program required a two year term of service.

00:02:47	Question: What followed the two year term? Answer: Failure entailed committing another two years in the service as an enlisted man. Graduating from the program within one year meant he would be discharged as an enlisted man and re-enlisted as a warrant officer for three years. Almost all graduates in his cohort went to Vietnam.  RB joined the First Cavalry Division in Company A of the 229 Assault Helicopter Battalion. 

00:04:35	[No question] Berry described the First Cavalry Division (the Army’s first air mobile division) and its role in Vietnam.  He compared the helicopters pilots’ role to that of paratroopers in World War II. He stated his high regard for this division of the Army and briefly contrasted it with his later experiences in Germany. 

00:06:00	Question: Work with ground troops? Answer: RB described the process of combat assault, which often involved helicopters lifting a company of infantrymen while escorted by a pair of helicopter gunships. Officers would negotiate a landing zone and time, and artillery would strike the landing zone prior to the helicopters’ arrival to dispel enemies and destroy booby traps. Afterwards, the helicopters would unload artillerymen and depart in less than a minute. These men would secure the zone while helicopters returned to retrieve the remaining men in the company. 

00:11:00	[No question] Most flights were very short, lasting about 10 minutes. RB shared details from his flight logs to illustrate this fact. 

00:12:48	[No question] Aside from combat assault, their division was also responsible for extracting men from the field after an operation. Another common mission was resupplying men in the field. On these flights, helicopters flew at least 2,000 feet above the ground to evade ground fire. Occasionally, weather conditions would require pilots to fly very close to the ground.  RB described the division as well-functioning and cooperative. People of widely different ranks sometimes performed the same tasks. 

00:16:48	Question: Did training prepare RB well for Vietnam? Answer: Yes. It was excellent. RB described his basic training and flight school classes at Fort Wolters, Texas. He called ground school as “pure harassment” designed to weed people out. After ground school, he learned the basics of flying a helicopter. He passed a “primary check ride” and proceeded to Fort Rucker, Alabama, where he learned to fly the Huey and received tactical training. Most instructors had seen combat in Vietnam. 

00:19:00	[No question] Upon arriving in Vietnam, new pilots would first fly as copilots. In RB’s company, pilots would be assigned with various aircraft commanders, affording them an opportunity to work with a wide range of people. 

00:20:20	Question: Effect of combat assaults in Vietnam? Answer: RB described a lack of awareness about the specific operational purposes of each mission. He proffered his experience in the Relief of Khe Sanh as an example. Only afterwards did he learn the goal of this assault. At the time, he was primarily concerned with doing his job. 

00:22:05	[No question] RB described other types of missions, including emergency resupplies at night. Flying after dark was very dangerous and required significant trust between ground and aviation units. Another type of mission was inserting long range reconnaissance patrols into the field. RB described the elaborate precautions taken to land unnoticed. Pilots usually learned within about an hour from their return to base camp whether these reconnaissance patrols had been discovered by the enemy. 

00:30:33	[No question] Berry briefly discussed the gap between depictions of combat in Vietnam and his experiences. He emphasized the infrequency of “hot LZ’s” e.g. dangerous landing zones. 

00:32:32	[No question] Berry’s division sometimes flew a “lightning bug” or “firefly” mission that took place at night. RB also flew non-combat assignments, such as transporting a USO troop. 

00:35:30	[No question] RB described in detail a flying tactic used to avoid ground fire: the high over head approach. Although it terrified passengers, it was the safest method of landing under uncertain conditions. 

00:38:04	Question: Have you seen these maneuvers in Vietnam war films? Answer: RB reflected on how young pilots were. The youngest shot down was nineteen. Many pilots had attended flight school directly after high school. They thought what they were doing was fun. He returned to the topic of tactics and weapons. He suspected that new weaponry had probably rendered this sort of air mobile assault defunct. More flights (for instance in Afghanistan and Iraq) occurred in the dark with the aid of night vision goggles. 

00:41:05	Question: How aware was RB of the Hueys’ vulnerability? Answer: One well-placed bullet could bring the helicopter down, however the Huey was sheathed in sheet metal and could handle many hits. If downed, a helicopter pilot could be assured that other helicopters were nearby to rescue him. RB recounted an incident in which his aircraft crashed onto a beach. The general of his division happened to be flying nearby and answered RB’s emergency radio call. 

00:43:41	Question: Was this type of rescue typical? Answer: Yes, in his unit. Follow-up: High number of pilots among POWs? Answer: POWs were more often Navy or Air Force fighter pilots. RB did recall one incident in which a Huey crashed and one man on board, a flight surgeon, was held for six years as a POW.

00:45:18	Question: Where was RB stationed? Answer: For most of his tour, RB was stationed at LZ English. Shortly before leaving (January 1968), he moved just south of the demilitarized zone to LZ Evans. Most of his unit’s operations were in the coastal plain. After Operation Pegasus, RB stopped his combat flying. These base camps were fairly secure. When on the move, RB and others would construct bunkers with sandbags and tents to sleep safely. 

00:49:04	Question: How did LZ English compare to other camps? Answer: LZ English was a major camp and the eastern headquarters of the main cavalry division. Follow-up: Did RB fly from there? Answer: Yes. In the morning, he would go into the operations bunker for his assignment. RB clarified that assault missions occurred within a seven mile radius of fire bases, but that those bases were sometimes located 15 miles into the field from LZ English. 

00:51:05	Question: Knowledge of “Search and Destroy”? Answer: Berry described “two different wars going on simultaneously.” His division operated primarily against trained and regular units of the North Vietnamese Army. By contrast, further south in the delta area, the Army combated insurgents that were scantly armed and dressed as peasants. Follow-up: Did he observe these enemies personally? Answer: RB told a story about his only encounter with enemies in the field. He was lost and had headed east toward the coast. Below him, he saw a uniformed enemy armed with an AK-47. Otherwise, he saw enemies only when transporting them as prisoners to the base camp. 

00:54:15	Question: Was getting lost a common occurrence? Answer: No. He was on a logistics mission in a remote location. Normally these missions were well coordinated with homing devices, radio, and maps. Flying at night was more difficult. 

00:57:53	Question: Clarification of sequence of Operation Pegasus and the Tet Offensive? Answer: RB’s tour of duty extended from May 1967 to May 1968, bracketing the Tet Offensive of January 1968. Follow-up: Changes he experienced of this period? Answer: RB became a more confident and capable pilot. Aviation units required cooperation from all four crewmembers of each helicopter. 

01:00:43	[No question] RB addressed the issue of drugs in Vietnam. Although his unit drank a lot, he did not witness any drug use. Their dependence on each other made drug use untenable among aviation units. On occasions, the threat of mortar fire at LZ English would necessitate flying helicopters away for the night. Pilots saw this as a great opportunity to drink at another base’s officer club about 50 miles south. They flew with hangovers the mornings after. 

01:02:54	Question: Command structure in the helicopter? Answer: The aircraft commander was responsible for the craft and its members, even when or if the second-in-command (called the pilot) was flying the helicopter itself. The commander position was based on experience and skill, rather than rank. RB described the positions of crew chief and gunner. He then went into detail on the importance of monitoring the helicopter’s weight. An overloaded aircraft would prevent a helicopter from hovering. 

01:08:06	[No question] Halfway through RB’s tour, the division received brand new Hueys with greater engine power which made operations safer. Infantrymen who flew with them carried only their weapons and first aid kits; their packs (including bedrolls and rations) would be transported to them later. The crew did not carry gear. They carried guns and wore 20 pound chest protectors or “chicken plates” to stop bullets. The pilots had greater protection because they sat in armored seats made of the same material as the chest plates. RB suspected that more non-pilot crewmembers were killed than pilots in Vietnam. 

01:13:12	Question: Did RB feel exposed in the pilot seat? Answer: Hueys afforded excellent visibility with their Plexiglas windshields, however these windows were easily penetrated by bullets. RB did not dwell on how exposed he was. 

01:15:06	End of session.

End of Interview #1323