UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
				ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

INTERVIEW #1109
JACOBSON, PAM

JACOBSON, PAM (1956-)
Firefighter
At UW: 1974-1978

Interviewed:  September 24, 2010
Interviewer:   Pat Calchina
Index by:        Pat Calchina
Length:          1 hour, 28 minutes

	Abstract:  In her 2010 interview with Pat Calchina, Pam Jacobson details her life in Madison. She spoke of the time period between 1974 and 1996 and of the following topics:  women’s studies classes at UW Madison, lesbianism, being part of the first class of women firefighters to be hired by the Madison fire department and her 17 years as a firefighter, various lesbian activities in Madison.

	Key Words:  Madison (WI),  Fire Chief Durkin, Marcia Holtz, Bev Buhr, Rory Ward, Ronny Greer, Liz Estrada, GALVANIZE, shirts and skins basketball at Orton Park, Lesbian Variety Show.

Interview Session (2010): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:19	Start of interview, interviewer’s introduction (2 false starts)

00:00:19	Pam Jacobson moved to Madison to begin college, talks about her coming to consciousness as a feminist and a lesbian.  She felt her women’s studies classes “filled all the holes in my education.”  Has first lesbian relationship, wonders if they were “really lesbians.”  Decides, “This is great, I like being with a woman. As  a feminist I wanted all my energy to go to a woman, even my intimate energy.”

00:09:46	Graduated from college, wondering what work she will do.  Was a body builder, boyfriend at the time saw ad in paper for firefighters. Went through written,  physical, oral tests and interviews and was hired by Chief Durkin.  Was unaware initially that she was doing something groundbreaking.

00:15:58	Discussion of sexism in firefighter training and at the job.  She talks about being “blown away” when men weren’t receptive to women on the job.  33 in class, about l/3 women, 1/3 people of color (all African Americans and one Latino), and 	1/3 white men who were relatives of current firefighters.  Discussion of ways women supported each other and the ways the men tried to make them fail in training.  Reference to law suit filed by Marcia Holtz and another woman (that they won). Marcia ends up in this first class after the law suit and ends up being Pam’s roommate and ultimately, lover.

00:27:55	Pam talks about Marcia’s help in training (because she was a farm girl and had gone through some training once already).  Discussion of the double standard, things women couldn’t do that were perfectly acceptable for men, “they were planning to fire as many of us as possible.”  Also talks about how it didn’t work to try to be one of the guys. Struggle around language, women vs. girl. Discussion of video (destroyed) the firefighter women put together showing male behavior and making fun of the men.  Video was created for and shown at a women’s studies conference.  A man saw the women at work, women got “lots of flack” for making the video.  Difference in attitude between second group of women hires vs. the first group.

00:35:26	Question:  Were women able to work together at the fire stations?  No, each at different stations, women always considered the “weak link.”  Always given 	things to do that were really hard and unusual.  Women couldn’t make contact with each other easily.  Rumor spread about Pam and Marcia having sex in a car, the chief insisted that the man spreading the rumor go their home and apologize personally. This is the point at which Pam is “outed” as a lesbian.

Question:  Was there any harassment as a result of being outed?  “Not really.” Pam believes she suffered more discrimination because she was a woman, being a lesbian at least protected her from the complaint that the women fire fighters were going to mess around with the men.  Discussion of both overt and subtle sexism.
	
Question:  How quickly were you made lieutenant?  7 Years.  Discussion of the 	relatively quick advancement of this class of women as a result of superior education, hard work,  having to be as perfect as possible and the support of Chief Durkin.

00:45:37	Discussion of what women leaders brought to fire service.

00:50:29	Question:  How were you harassed and what was your response?  Lesbians were called “the radicals.”  Pam discusses the women, strong minded, athletic, feminists, “we were radicals.”  Pam took notes about what the men said and did to the women, in depth discussion about pornography in the fire stations and the women’s response.  Pam says, “we paid a big price for saying our stuff.”  Gradually able to get rid of all the pornography.  When Pam threw away the last bit (burned) at her station (she had been burning it a little at a time) she says, “I thought there was going to be a riot.” “It was just a war.” Discussion of bad training, the men not acknowledging the women, having to put on your “firefighter face” which Pam thinks may have contributed to her reputation of having “a chip on her shoulder.” Pam believes the pioneers burned out quicker.  Discussion of “hero image” “How can you be a hero if a mere woman can do this?”  

01:02:11	Question:  How many years did you work as a fire fighter and why did you leave? 17 years.  Discussion of leaving, wanting a change and had an “itch to do some other stuff” and “wanted to be appreciated.”  Discussion of firefighter training, 	both as the recipient of the training and as a trainer.

01:06:28  	Question:  How were you politically involved during your time in Madison? Discussion of working for one year as one of the key organizers for the first Gay and Lesbian Pride March in Madison as a member of GALVANIZE.  Discussion of fellow firefighter, and an African American member of the first class, Ronny Greer, picketing the march and how sad that made her. 

01:08:10	  Question:  How about the Lesbian Variety Show?  Did you ever perform? Discussion of dance performance at variety show and country line dancing, also.

01:11:49	  Question:  Did you attend events at Apple Island?  Yes!  Discussion of shirts and skins basketball outside and riding bikes shirtless through Madison to make a point about men being able to go without shirts, but women could not.

01:13:14	  Question:  Did you play sports?  Discussion of sports in high school, cheerleading, basketball and softball in Madison.  Talks about being either “terrified or bored”  in sports and then reflected that she felt a lot that way as a firefighter as well. 

01:16:03	  Question:  What about the bar scene?  Comments about Liz Estrada and the fire that destroyed it and the owner of the building, “that owner wasn’t good.”

01:17:35  	Question:  What about feminist events, like Take Back the Night?  Discussion of 	the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival.  Segway to discussion of one crew in the 	fire department that was the “crew of misfits”, we were mostly “weak links”. Pam talks about this being the first time she ever had fun at work and got to drive the fire engine, which was significant, because without that practice she would not have been able to be in line for promotion as a lieutenant.

01:21:51	  Question:  Was it stressful doing all you did in the fire department?  Discussion of trying times, story about driving the fire engine by herself and getting lost. (Today there are always two people, one to drive and one to navigate.)  She didn’t call dispatch and ask for help because she didn’t want to appear weak and how the next day it was all over the fire department.  (Note:  She was not going to a fire, getting lost did not result in any additional problems.)

1:27:34	  Question:  Do you have any final thoughts?  Pam talks about the special bond she has with the women and especially with the other lesbians.  She has made peace with many of the men and talks about her firefighter brothers and sisters today as “family.”  

End of First Interview Session

End of Oral History #1109