UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #264
LARDY, HENRY A.

LARDY, Henry A. (1917- )1
Graduate Student, Biochemistry; Professor of Biochemistry; Co-Director of Enzyme Institute
At UW: 1939-1988

Interviewed: 1983	
Series: Life Sciences
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length: 3.75 hours

Undergraduate work at South Dakota State; Reasons for coming to UW; Work under Paul Phillips in artificial insemination; Biochemistry faculty as teachers; Karl Paul Link's laboratory; Fellow graduate students; Relationships among faculty; Calf-scours issue; His laboratory and research; Appointment as co-director of Enzyme Institute; Changes in method of training graduate students; Perry Wilson's course in writing; Relationships in Institute; Weekly seminars; Funding of Institute; Equipment; Value of national research centers; Running his laboratory; Deterioration in equipment; Computer use; Issues in funding life sciences; Enzyme Institute Committee.

First Interview Session: Tape 1

Tape 1/Side 1

00:00:00	Beginnings of HL's interest in biochemistry. Students from South Dakota State who came to UW.

00:04:36	In June 1939, HL came to work with Phillips. Fellowship given to work on artificial insemination. Solved by fall. Effect on breeding worldwide.

00:07:10	Describes Phillips. He was not a great or inspiring scientist but he produced an unusual number of successful graduate students.

00:09:57	HL disappointed with Harry Steenbock; not a great scientist. Also disappointed with Karl Paul Link's teaching. He wasted time, sometimes gave incorrect information. Discusses an argument they had. HL would not argue with Elvehjem, since he feared and revered him. But he was not a great teacher; his enzyme course was dull. 

00:15:17	Marvin Johnson stands out as the best teacher of the group, his methods and exams. Didn't achieve all he could have in research. Stayed too long with fermentation. Johnson was always available to students. Eccentric. Delightful person, loaded with ideas.  

00:19:23	Peterson and E.B. Fred kept him working for them, recognized his abilities.

00:20:20	During the war, Johnson's students were working on penicillin in every drug company. More on Johnson's personality. 

00:23:50	HL discusses divisions within the department. Graduate students couldn't go into Steenbock’s lab unless they were his students.

00:26:13	Discusses Link-Stahmann controversy.  How Link ran his lab; Campbell's work.  Stahmann replaced Campbell as head of lab. Charlie Huebner isolated and characterized dicumerol. A genius.

00:30:00	Dicumerol patent.  Link and Stahmann never spoke to each other again.

00:32:22	Link at department meetings.  He had best equipment in department.  HL used the equipment in 1940's.  Link and Steenbock quarreled in men's room.

00:35:52	Calf-scours issue.  Link's belittling of Elvehjem.  HL doesn't think dairy department would have hampered Link from using animals.  

00:38:35	HL's view of Link as scientist.

00:40:30	Elvehjem supported graduate students’ scientific discoveries.  Steenbock curtailed freedom, creativity of his graduate students.  Usual length of graduate degree program was four years.

00:44:59	Frank Strong's work and students.  Modest, good lab teacher.

00:46:40	HL considers Elvehjem a giant in research.

Second Interview Session (June 28, 1983): 

00:00:00	HL has not made dramatic breakthroughs like Har Gobind Khorana's, but HL and his colleagues has made important contributions. Always interesting work, fun.  Usually exploring rather than having a defined goal in mind.  

00:03:05	HL describes what led to work in gluconeogenesis in 1960's. Johnson inspired initial question. 

00:06:33	An interest in what regulates metabolic processes lies behind his work.

00:07:41	HL believes in pursuing practical problems at the fundamental level.

00:08:55	No elation in offer of position from Enzyme Institute. Pleased to be asked, but didn't consider it a trophy. Institute didn't have a glowing reputation then.  Assurance of adequate space was appealing. Had been expanding into nooks in biochemistry department.

00:10:37	How people chose graduate students in contrast to now in biochemistry. Enzyme Institute had applicants, chosen on merit. No trouble getting along with students.  Had a few duds in his lab.

00:15:52	Perry Wilson taught a writing course but HL didn't hear of it while a student.  Phillips kept them in lab from 7:30 a.m. to midnight. No way of hearing about courses. Regrets not taking more chemistry classes. Never knew Aldo Leopold, although he was here at that time.

00:17:29	HL's experience in writing as an undergraduate. Had read a lot of scientific papers. Later learned much about English usage from his wife. Always read through and criticized his students' papers.

00:20:00	HL's working day. If many students, he spends time conferring with them and keeping up with literature in order to work up problems to give them. When everything goes well, he can do some lab work. Used to come back in evenings, but rarely does so now. Works at home often, reading journals or writing.  Students also come in much less in the evenings than students used to. Recalls his visit to UW in late 1930's, where twenty students were in the animal room late at night. More students are married now.

00:23:30	On getting students together. They used to have a lunch group, but some experiments can't be interrupted for lunch. There is a weekly seminar when students take turns reporting on work. Just his group. Stopped meeting with Green's group and not enough in common with groups of more recent co-directors. Discusses borrowing chemicals.

00:28:03	Green had used most of the Rockefeller money but gave some of it to HL to equip his lab. Got spectrometers, a Warburg apparatus. Brought some equipment over from biochemistry. Discussion of funding for replacement of equipment by NIH or NSF. There are national centers where one can go to do particular techniques, e.g. nuclear magnetic resonance centers.

00:30:52	HL says these centers perform a useful function. Mentions accelerator lab at Stoughton which is not used sufficiently by biologists. Beinert can do electron paramagnetic resonance--has equipment for it. People send samples of enzyme preparations. He does measurements and sends results and his interpretation. His name is then on resulting papers.

00:33:40	HL says they could use much better equipment than they have, e.g. recording spectrophometer is 25 years old. Not as precise as modern spectrophotometers.  Would need $30,000 to replace it. HL's grant proposals are modest. Doesn't ask for large amounts. Their overhead costs are less than at many universities so labs often get some of overhead money back, which can sometimes be used for equipment. Lack of equipment has hampered them somewhat but it's more important to have money for more rats than to have a new spectrophotometer.

00:37:17	They used to use university computer but now have own. Started using computer about fifteen years ago. Had calculators prior to that. Comparison of UW and Harvard--facilities.

00:40:28	Has always been able to do long-term financial planning. The Enzyme Institute was more or less assured of NIH support in 1950's and 60's and even now. Could use larger grants but not suffering. Their five-year grant was just renewed. Got a 15% cut at first, then 10% restored.

00:43:06	Talk HL gave on behalf of Institute for General Medical Sciences at a congressional appropriations committee. HL thinks more money went into cancer research than was justified.

00:44:44	Question on Alberty decision on funding of molecular biology. Alberty decided to transform Enzyme Institute labs into administrative offices, which HL thinks was a mistake that had negative repercussions for the Enzyme Institute.  

00:50:19	LS quotes DeLuca on relative strengths of EI, Molecular biology and biochemistry. HL says biochemistry has lost some good people but has some promising younger ones. DeLuca quoted on keeping HL in biochemistry. HL says Elvehjem was trying to rescue the Institute by appointing Lardy.  

00:52:36	More on fund cutting. HL hasn’t been deeply affected by cuts, but he now must pay postdocs out of his won grants. The Enzyme Institute receives relatively little money from WARF.

00:54:10	Question on evaluating an institute. There's no provision for it. Committee that supervises Enzyme Institute mostly concerned with recruiting. Some of directors are disturbed at effort to get more molecular biologists than they think are needed.

00:56:37	Not customary for UW to supervise or evaluate. Publications in refereed journals, not in quickie journals, are good indication of quality.

00:59:20	Biochemistry used to be world famous in nutrition research. When biochemistry stopped doing nutrition research, the School of Agriculture created a department of nutrition.

01:00:39	HL tells story about Citizens vs. McCarthy.

01:02:03	More on anti-McCarthy work and the other faculty members involved.  

01:05:15	Has gone on being politically active--fund raising for candidates. Very concerned about population control. Supports Planned Parenthood. His research in sperm, aimed at helping achieve that goal. Also concerned about the environment.

01:06:50	Was aware of social science effort to receive WARF funding. He wrote a letter to graduate school in 1940's suggesting that no grad school money be given to sciences because they had adequate federal funding. He suggested giving the money to schools and departments that are not eligible for grants from the National Science Foundation and the National Institute in Health.

01:09:45	Was aware of, but not active in Committee on the Future of Man. Mentions danger that when scientists attempt to move into non-scientific fields they may not be aware of what has already been done and consequently appear naive.

Third Interview Session (February 28, 1984): Tapes 4-5

00:00:20	In fall of 1935 as freshman at South Dakota State University worked in dairy department on experiments with vitamin D deficiency under G. C. Wallis for two years.

00:02:44	Obtained a sought after position in experimental station of chemistry lab under Professor Moxon.
 
00:04:36	Senior thesis on means of removing toxic amounts of selenium from experimental animals. Found bromobenzene to be therapeutic for people living in selenium-rich areas, through experiments on dogs.

00:05:49	In June of 1939 Brookings sent him to Madison along with SDSU librarian, Dean Stallings. Worked in biochemistry department for Paul Phillips. Worked from eight a.m. to midnight first day. Lab conditions very cramped.

00:07:00	Work was on problem of storage of mammalian spermatozoa to develop methods of artificial insemination. Work designed to be applicable to farming. Found that egg yolk works well for semen storage because it retains fertility.  

00:08:18	Discusses mammalian spermatozoa. Found it could be stored for seven to ten days. Published several papers with Gerhert Plaut and with David Garbers.  Latter discovered that caffeine increases motility of spermatozoa and aids penetration to egg.

00:11:42	Discusses the work of students Susan Hutson and Neil Van Dop, who worked on motility and pyruvate.

00:12:55	Donner Babcock worked on sperm metabolism. Discovered that spermatozoa is low in calcium. Substance found in seminal fluid obstructs uptake of calcium.  Calcium induces acrosome reaction which leads to sperm penetration. All of this is in published works and papers.

00:16:26	Mentions students who later came onto UW faculty: Julius Adler in biochemistry, Laurence Anderson, Bob Weaver, Mike McDonald, and Earl Shrago in medical school. Says that he recommended students but their merit got them their jobs.

00:18:51	Discusses work on sperm protein and how it is prevented from developing an acrosome reaction at time of mating. This is fortunate in that fertility is maintained. His work isolated protein that prevents calcium uptake, which is significant for control of fertility.

00:21:47	Discusses outstanding students: fifty-five have completed Ph.D. degrees, ninety are post-doctorate fellows and visiting professors at Enzyme Institute.

00:22:19	Mentions a many outstanding students and their work, including Gerhart Plaut, an assistant professor at UW, Stephen Kuby, Lafayette Noda, many students from Taiwan and Japan.

00:29:08	Talks about colorful students, Maija Zile, Bill Byrne. These were social organizers who planned beer parties, pizza lunches, and so on to celebrate birthdays, Ph.D.s, etc. These parties were costly in terms of work productivity.

00:31:15	Discusses distinguished people from overseas: Denmark, France, Poland, Switzerland.

00:32:31	Talks about Josh Lederberg, whom he considered a great friend and an asset to UW.

00:33:53	In late '40's and early 50's, enzymology was preeminent field in biochemistry.  Many outstanding visiting professors came to UW who later made major contributions. Discusses relations with other people on campus, Medical School, and so on. Feels quite positive about this.  

00:36:37	Interest in work of Bill Johnson, Alfred Wilds, Van Tamlein.

00:37:41	Collaboration with Neil First on animal reproduction research.

00:38:00	Khorana a very pleasant person, research interests very different.

00:39:43	Science in general moves very fast, one is not remembered for very long for scientific achievements. 

00:40:43	Outstanding contributions of J. B. S. Haldane.

00:41:29	Role of a good library in university research.

00:44:48	Recalls incident concerning book he found in Ag library by Rene Dubos. Book had many written sections copied largely from works of Sir Arthur Harden.  Upon writing to Dubos, he received a "scurrilous response."

00:47:32	J. Lederberg's opinion of episode: didn't think it worth pursuing.

00:48:22	Praises Ag library. Discusses his enthusiasm about learning in general. Found librarian, Mr. Hane, extremely helpful.

00:50:20	Talks of how research assistants as graduate students must forego all other kinds of entertainment.

00:51:38	Enzyme Institute Library, his pride in extent of its collection.

00:52:29	Importance of branch libraries in encouraging students.

00:53:49	Post doctorates from abroad narrower in perspective than those from UW.

00:54:28	Yellow Cardinal, a paper published anonymously in bacteriology department, poked fun at professors and graduate students. HL believes Wayne Umbreit had something to do with it.

00:56:25	Importance of libraries in that they contribute to meaningful experiments.

00:57:06	1941 Symposium on Repository Enzymes spurred student interest. This was first such event in biochemistry department.
					
00:58:29	Now it is common practice to send students and have them present papers.

00:59:03	Isolation of enzyme students overcome somewhat by taking courses in biochemistry. Advantaged in that they are less often interrupted.

01:00:05	Research on crib death. Found that enzymes in infants who are victims of disease have carbohydrate shortages. This has not been determined to be a cause, but is certainly a correlative factor. It is not a universal phenomena.

01:03:45	UW Medical school not interested in carbohydrate metabolism's relation to sudden infant death syndrome.

01:05:55	Problem is not that one cannot test on mammals because there is no comparable animal model for this disease. Some suggest cats as possibility.

01:07:13	HL discounts possibility that going to press would help. Unsubstantiated reports in papers often.

01:08:13	HL believes discovery to be significant because it is only biochemical defect found to be associated with disease. Could suggest a defective hormone system.  Difficult to study.

01:11:00	Work on University Committee. Found it to be pretty calm, no major controversies, only one involved requirement of physical education.

01:12:56	Marvelous people: Ed Young, Beuscher, Jim Crow, Connie Elvehjem, Harrington.

01:13:39	Lardy wrote the only letter of support for Harrington to Regents when they were considering discharging him.

01:14:22	Close friends with Robert Clodius.

01:15:22	Good relations with Connie Elvehjem.

01:14:42	Housing controversies involving race, Madison integration.

01:18:12	Extra-curricular activities and recreation.

01:19:47	Helmet Binert, gifted scientist and speaker.

01:21:13	Frederic Mohs, highly underrated, developed chemo-surgery technique.

01:25:00	Worries that he wasn't interesting enough.

END