UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #1252
BARNES, BETTE

BARNES, Bette (1924 - ) 
Senior Lecturer in Physiology Emerita; Graduate Women in Science (GWiS) 
At UW: 

Interviewed: 	2012 (1 session)
Interviewer: 	Vicki Tobias & Mandy Pertzborn
Index by: 	Jill Slaight 
Length: 	1 hour, 42 minutes

Abstract: In her summer 2012 interview with Vicki Tobias and Mandy Pertzborn, Betty Barnes talked about her experiences at UW-Madison as a graduate student and lecturer in the Department of Physiology. Barnes discussed her path into academia and her experiences as single mother working in the sciences. She described the early days of the group Graduate Women in Science (GWiS) and reflected on its members, including Elizabeth McCoy and Helen and Ruth Dickie. Other topics addressed include Kalamazoo College, Frances Diebold, R.K. Meyer, World War II, the GI Bill, President Birge, the Physiology Department, sexual harassment, women’s rights, Expanding Your Horizons program, Sterling Hall Bombing, and Title IX. This interview was conducted for inclusion into the UW-Madison Oral History Program. 

First Interview Session (August 7, 2012): Digital File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:01:16	Question: Decision to attend UW-Madison? Answer: Barnes’ parents were college-educated, which was unusual for the 1930s. Both encouraged her to pursue an education. Her high school in Schoolcraft, MI did not offer a general science education. After graduating, she won a scholarship to attend Kalamazoo College; she might become a lawyer. Barnes (BB) enrolled in a biology course, which in 1941 was taught by the department’s only female member, Frances Diebold, from Madison. BB declared a major in biology, but also took courses in chemistry and physics.
	
00:04:08	[No Question] In Barnes’ senior year, Diebold asked her about the possibility of graduate school. At the time, her fiancée was deployed in the Pacific theatre. Responding to people who thought such an education would be wasted on a soon-to-be-married woman, her father said that “no education is ever wasted.” BB went to Madison and worked under mentor R. K. Meyer, an endocrinologist. She felt fortunate to have Meyer and Diebold as mentors. She started out in zoology, veered into reproductive physiology, and finally settled in physiology.

00:06:14	[No Question] BB did not finish her PhD and follow the tenure track. She does not regret the decision, as she enjoyed her position and did not like “straight research.” Diebold had placed her students in summer research positions at Uptown Company in Kalamazoo, where Barnes assisted on a research project geared toward the war effort. After moving to Madison, she decided she would rather work with people than pursue research. BB describes the high volume of people who took her course on physiology. Several students were “real heroes of the Athletic Department.” She recalls several football players, one who later became a member of the Pittsburgh Steelers.  

00:10:27	[No Question] In the late 1940s, the Athletic Department required attendance reports each week. With the GI Bill, Barnes also needed to take roll for all the GIs. She mentioned one football player, Earl “Jug” Girard, who attended so infrequently that the Athletic Department hired another student simply to ensure he went to class. 

00:11:53	Question: First impressions of Madison? Answer: Its size was intimidating. She mostly stayed in the campus area. Follow-up: How did you get to Madison? Answer: She came with a friend from Kalamazoo, with whom she lived before both married. Shirley Soukup was also a PhD student and a pioneer in amniocentesis research. 

00:14:07	Question: Experience of being a married student on campus? Answer: It was not unusual, whereas at Kalamazoo, a married student had been asked to leave the women’s dormitories. Barnes and her husband lived in a house at Mills and Dayton, sharing a bathroom with their landlady and another family. Nevertheless, they felt fortunate because of their proximity to campus. For fun, they would “pile in” a car with friends and go to Lake Ripley in Cambridge, WI. BB also describes swimming off the pier near the limnology lab on Lake Mendota. 

00:16:56	[No Question] Their building was called the Biology Building (before being renamed as Birge Hall after President Birge’s death.) In the late 1940s, Birge still came to campus every day at 9:30 a.m. with a chauffeur named Billy. Barnes describes him as “brusque” and “not a pleasant man.” She shares an anecdote about encountering Birge in an elevator with her husband. Birge poked him and said “Boy, do you have to wear those glasses?” to which her husband responded in the affirmative. 

00:18:58	Question: Other faculty or administrators who made an impression? Answer: Dr. Bryant from zoology insisted that women sit on one side of his class and men on the other. Follow-up: Other experiences that would surprise women on campus today? Answer: The University underwent a great deal of change in the 1940s. Women students felt “more equal” during this period than later in the 1950s. She calls her advisor, Meyer, a feminist and says she did not experience problems with her peers. 

00:21:50	Question: Impressions of campus climate after soldiers’ return? Answer: Barnes cannot recall students with PTSD-like symptoms, but remembers several incidents involving epilepsy. Follow-up: Any special services for GIs? Answer: She does not recall, but mentions the quality of Health Services. 

00:24:37	Question: Reactions to the campus’ sudden growth? Answer: BB was committed to teaching and felt most students took their work seriously. Barnes comments that most “playboys” came in the 1970s. She describes one student, a cousin of the Shah of Iran, who flunked the course as a result of ignoring its laboratory requirement. Her department supported her against his complaints. Barnes also related the story of an Indian student who had plagiarized a former student’s work. He “made a fuss” but the department supported Barnes once again.

00:28:20	Question: Involvement in Graduate Women in Science (GWiS)? Answer: It was the organization for women; Gamma Alpha, the men’s organization, had refused women.  Barnes joined in 1947, the year she earned her MA. GWiS did “blackball” a few women whom they judged to be unqualified. To belong was an honor.

00:30:01	Question: Activities and key leaders? Answer: Meetings were serious; they often involved research presentations or guest speakers. Each spring the group held an initiation banquet. In the fall, they held an introductory meeting for all women in science on campus.  Barnes describes the group as “fraternal.” An older colleague would take you under her wing. Friendships formed there “lasted forever.” Barnes mentions charter member Ruth Noland, as well as Elizabeth McCoy.

00:33:38	Question: Impressions of Elizabeth McCoy? Answer: A very capable researcher. McCoy had two advantages: she was independently wealthy and had E.B. Fred as her mentor.  GWiS members would go out to her farm for picnics. After McCoy’s retirement, she spent a great deal of time at Letters & Sciences. Her estate could not locate a will after her death. Follow-up: Other charter members actively involved? Answer: Eloise Gerry, Edith Jones, and Helen Parsons (Vitamin B research), who participated until she developed debilitating Shingles. 

00:37:22	Question: Memories of the Dickies (Ruth and Helen)? Answer:  They were fraternal twins. Barnes attributes Helen Dickie’s success as a pulmonologist to her self-assertion. She was short with students, but they learned a great deal from her. Ruth Dickie (a nutritionist) was the opposite; she often smoothed over things for Helen. Ruth wanted women to have the opportunity to do their best; she gave money to GWiS in her will. 

00:40:22	Question: Influence of these women on your career? Answer: National meetings broadened her outlook. Barnes comments on a difference in attitude between women from the coasts and those from the Midwest. She describes east coast women as heavy drinkers. At the time, most chapters were associated with universities, rather than towns, as the Minnesota chapter was. She was always happy to return home.

00:44:04	Question: Consideration of leaving academia for the private sector? Answer: No. She thought about it occasionally. 

00:45:01	Question: Thoughts on how marriage affected women’s careers in science? Answer: Of the original GWiS members, it was “either/or.” Edith Jones maintained a career and a family, but most others remained single. Follow-up: Pressure to spend less time on career and more on family? Answer: Everyone BB worked with was understanding. Barnes made one concession, accepting a nine month (rather than twelve month) appointment because she was a single mother. She never regretted it. 

00:47:55	[No Question] As a single mother in those days, her family was called a “broken home.” The counselor at West High School always emphasized her son’s achievement despite his “broken home.” Barnes rebuked him, but to no avail. Follow-up: How common was being a single parent? Answer: When she divorced (1968), single parenting was uncommon. Follow-up: Other women on campus in similar situations? Answer: She does not recall, but she did not feel isolated. 

00:50:45	Question: How did that time (1960s) influence her participation in GWiS? Answer: BB describes the development of the women’s rights movement as “very slow” on campus. She belonged to the Commission of Women in the Medical School (unfortunately dubbed “CoW”) which eventually became the Commission on Women’s Issues. Barnes and Mary Rouse, Dean of Women, secured childcare on the Agricultural School campus. Later, they were involved in the School of Human Ecology’s pre-school lab.  

00:53:47	[No Question] Barnes remarks that “things were not good” for women. She participated in a sexual harassment policy committee. Women would not come forward for fear of losing their jobs. BB shares an anecdote about a graduate woman who appealed to Senator Proxmire about abuse of NiH funds by Waisman Center employees. She describes a faculty member “type” who cheated within marriage as well as funding issues.

00:57:41	Question: Did the committee make progress? Answer: Yes. The committee received complaints, for instance, one about a pathology lecturer who showed a slide of a naked woman simply to catch the attention of his students. The administration supported her. Barnes says she made an enemy at the mailroom by asking an employee there not to leave out Sports Illustrated swimsuit issues. 

00:59:31	[No Question] Barnes describes drafting a statement on consensual relationships in the early 1980s. She also recalls a vulgar rhyme that was popular in the anatomy labs. BB cites these examples to show that GWiS’s efforts on questions of tenure did not take place in a vacuum.  Bernice Durand was active in GWiS; she always supported women because she had a “terrible time” when she arrived in the Physics department. 

01:01:53	Question: Climate for women faculty hires? Answer: Physics “way behind.” Barnes relates a story about a woman approved by the Physiology Department but denied by the Biological Division. The woman did not fight their decision. She said, “if you win, you lose” and left. Follow-up: Marion Namenwirth and Nellie Bilstad (women who contested unfair treatment)? Answer: BB mentions Eleanor Larson, an assistant professor who joined the Physiology Department in the 1940s and remained in the same position until she left in the 1970s. Yet physiology was “way ahead” of other departments. BB talks about Denice Denton in Engineering, who fought for and gained tenure. She describes a range of experiences among women, also mentioning Molly Carnes.

01:06:24	Question: Experiences of women today, from your perspective? Answer: Barnes still recognizes tendency for mothers to encourage daughters to marry. Pertzborn reflects on obstacles that remain for women in the sciences today. Barnes asks her about the effect of Ruth Dickie’s fellowships (GWiS). Barnes also mentions Eloise Gerry’s scholarship (GWiS). 

01:12:58	Question: Anything you would have done differently in your career? Answer: Barnes remarks that teachers focus on the “middle student,” rather than “F” or “A” students. She wishes she had been able to lead a seminar dedicated to the “A” students and instill an interest in research. BB mentions having provided guidance to women students, including some who were victims of rape. 

01:17:24	Question: Advice for getting young women interested in sciences and related disciplines? Answer: Barnes talks about the “Expanding Your Horizons” program founded in 1959; UW-Madison hired high school students from three Madison campuses to work in a lab for the summer. She describes the gradual expansion of the program to include younger girls, and later to include engineering. In 1986 and 1987, the program did not occur for lack of support on campus. BB looked to the community to recruit support. Follow-up: Effect on participants? Answer: Great. Her grandchildren participated. Barnes remained active in the program until its 50th anniversary in 2009. Only once did one woman ask about being paid. Now the University offers more monetary support for volunteers. 

01:25:43	Question: Anything to add? Answer: She notes that women in science can have a family and cites her own family - with three sons, seven grandchildren, and thirteen great-grandchildren - as evidence. BB speaks about her sons and their professions. Follow-up: Still involved with the University? Answer: Just GWiS. She still goes to luncheons and talks. 

01:30:29	Question: Thoughts on Title IX? Answer: Barnes remembers foot-dragging and lack of forgiveness about loss of baseball as a result of Title IX. Follow-up: Involvement during protests in 1960s and 1970s? Answer: The Zoology Department supported the anti-war movement. Barnes marched with her youngest son. She describes an incident in which teargas seeped into her laboratory. BB calls the marches as “uplifting” and laments people who gave them a bad name by using violence. She remembers crossing University Avenue lined with members of the National Guard who were carrying bayonets. Follow-up: Impact on work? Answer: No. However the Sterling Hall Bombing blew out the windows of her church on University Ave. She heard the explosion. 

01:37:49	Question: Climate on campus after Sterling Hall bombing? Answer: Sober. She recalls that she saw Har Gobin Khorana the last day that day. He eventually left after a State Senator attacked him for earning a large salary, despite his being a Nobel Laureate. Follow-up: University policy about faculty involvement in protests? Answer: Departments could decide as they pleased. Several Zoology faculty members marched. Barnes, Tobias, and Pertzborn discuss different attitudes about faculty participation today.  Tobias tells Barnes about interview follow-up. 

01:42:40	End of Interview. 

END OF INTERVIEW #1252