UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #230
CARSTENSEN, VERNON

CARSTENSEN, Vernon (1907-1993)1
Professor of History
At UW: 1945-1964

Interviewed: 1982	
Interviewers: Barry Teicher and Laura Smail
Length: 1.5 hours

Glenn Frank; His biography; Experimental College; Dean George Sellery; Carstensen's invitation to UW; Division of work between himself and Merle Curti on The University of Wisconsin: A History, volumes I and II; Research assistants; Search for sources; Founding UW Archives; Obtaining regents' papers for Archives; Interviews done for UW History; Scarcity of information on students; Suggested topics for updated UW History; Efforts to obtain WARF grants for social sciences; Important issues in recent UW history; Sifting and winnowing plaque and regents' initial reaction; Ambiguity of Wisconsin Idea; Emphasis on teaching in History Department in 1940s; Paul Knaplund's role in UW affairs; E. B. Fred; Clarence Dykstra; Carstensen's opinion of UW History.

Tape 1/Side 1

00:00:01	Anecdotes about Glenn Frank.  Larson's biography of Frank.  VC didn't know Frank, but thought he was a man of his word.  Sellery talked about Frank to VC when he knew that UW history project would not get to Frank's presidency.  VC says he was a lightweight with no business being president of a university.  Experimental College was his one great idea, but not a good idea to foist it upon faculty.  Frank had no teaching experience.  Inflamed faculty against him.  Experimental College probably not his idea but he picked it up and moved with it.  VC says he has learned second-hand that Frank had shown George Sellery a dossier on faculty members that Frank had hired a detective agency to compile before he came.  He tried to fire Sellery, but didn't have courage to go through with it.

00:11:17	VC had done Ph.D. on history of University of Iowa.  Merle Curti started work with two or three research assistants.  After one year he decided he needed help.  Curti had read VC's history and invited him to come, which he did in 1945.  How they divided work.  VC took sections Curti did not want to do: legislature, law school, engineering, agriculture, extension.  Worked out an outline.  TAs did preliminary work before outline.  No archives then.  Found papers from  1880's and '90's in Bascom Hall ventilation system, which had been remodeled at that time.  More on work details.  Met weekly on progress.  Story re destruction of high school records after he looked at them.

00:22:55	VC started University Archives by threatening to recommend placing University records in state archives so they would receive proper care.  Fred H. Harrington was delighted, told Mark Ingraham of VC's intentions.  They assigned two graduate students to start a survey of records to go to archives.  They started on ag records.  Many records were under eaves at Ag Hall.  They obtained space in Memorial Library when it was finished, then tried to obtain faculty records.  They asked regents for presidential records.  This was difficult at first.

00:29:55	VC and Curti asked senior members and emeritus professors of each department to get a history of department.  Taped an interview with William Lighty, assistant director of Extension since 1915.

00:32:05	End of side. 

Tape 1/Side 2

00:32:06	Beginning of side. More on above interview,  which ran thirty hours.  They also interviewed Dr. Joseph Evans.  Problems of knowing about undergraduate life.  Who is typical student?  All they had were student diaries and a few letters.  They had all records of Buck, first archivist in U.S., who was an undergraduate student.  Good to do oral interviews on great scientific discoveries, e.g. Karl P. Link, Harry Steenbock, Edwin B. Hart, Conrad Elvehjem.  Growth of UW as research institution.  Problem of how to incorporate story of scientific discoveries into text.

00:42:35	Question about encouragement. Mark Ingraham could testify on two in-grown departments.  Economics had maybe one faculty member that did not attend school here.  Not a good department until H. Edwin Young came and revived it.  Brittingham professorship helped.

00:44:07	VC got a copy of WARF charter and sent it to Ralph Nafziger, chairman of social science division, with letters to E.B. Fred and Conrad Elvehjem saying that charter didn't specify limiting funding only to biological or physical sciences.  E.B. Fred and Elvehjem were embarrassed and began working to get some money for social sciences.

00:47:30	Best oral history can do is point to other places to look in archives.  So much information in archives that it is hard to sort through important stuff.  Curti's suggestions of what to look for in updated history: what happened to Wisconsin Idea; sense of faculty and academic community and how it changed; political intervention of legislature.  VC's suggestions: Examine way in which La Follettes, Wisconsin Idea, and Progressives came to be satisfied by people who didn't really agree with them in first place.  By 1915, UW celebrated as great secular cathedral of Wisconsin--University that runs a state.  But also many attacks on University.  Never know which is reality.  Edward A. Ross, a sociologist was investigated as red by one of legislators.  1935 Communist meeting that was broken up.  Jocks threw speaker into lake to prove that University was not a radical university.  Jocks were subsequently criticized by those attacking University because they suppressed freedom of speech.

00:54:41	Sifting and Winnowing essay written by Theodore Herforth in 1949.   Written in purple prose inspired by plaque.  Writer wanted regents to publish it.  It was about 150 pages long.  Author protested any editing of it.  Plaque originally given to  regents by a group of students in 1910 who regents thought were out to embarrass them.  It was intended as criticism of way regents handled business because they considered firing Edward Ross and had made Frederick Jackson Turner so unhappy that he had gone to Harvard.  Class of 1910 got money in 1915 to cast in bronze phrase from Ely Trial.  Regents declined to accept it at first; felt it was a part of La Follette attack on them.  Thirty years later, it has become part of all things conservatives venerate.  Research on the concept of the Wisconsin Idea will give troubles and a lot of fun.  Used by devout and cynical to cover a variety of things.

01:04:40	End of tape.

Tape 2/Side 1

00:00:00	Continuation of discussion of teaching within the department.

00:01:05	Other major figures.  Sellery and Paul Knaplund very important.  Conscience of University.  Knaplund mobilized effort to get new library.  During Curti's and VC's research in regents' vaults file on Ely Trial was denied them.  They told Paul Knaplund they couldn't continue, or would point out in their introduction that they were denied access to them, and he arranged for them to use files.  VC  heard that E.B. Fred was a fuddy duddy, or appeared to be in order to confuse people.  He would set up committees to talk about ideas that he had.  Anecdote about how he could be very clear and precise when he wanted something.  Was devoted to University.  He was an operator who liked to work behind scenes.  VC didn't know Clarence Dykstra.  Talks about hiring of Thomas Chamberlin.

00:15:43	Their history remains the book that set standard for University histories.  Difficulty now is enormous amount of documentation.  VC would be less optimistic if writing it today.  Would have greater caution about value of some scientific research.  No one foresaw issues of using herbicides and insecticides.  Ag College made great contributions to human health at that time.  Use of computers to aid in research.  Sellery refused to let Emily Hahn take a course in engineering.  She managed to do it.  Women fell off as teachers at university level after 1910s.  Lately, they have returned.  As administrators, women have been hired only as deans of women.  University not very good about hiring women.

00:32:41	End of interview.
END