UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interview #1274
DEML, AMY and JOHNSON, JAI

DEML, AMY and JOHNSON, JAI 

Interviewed: 	2012 (1 session)
Interviewer: 	Kara Bissen
Index by: 	Troy Reeves
Length: 	2 hours, 6 minutes
Series:		La Crosse’s LGBT Community, 1960s to present

Abstract: In their interview with Kara Bissen, Amy Deml and Jai Johnson detail the LGBTQ community in La Crosse. Jai, coming from a small town, addresses her coming out experience when she came to UW La Crosse in 1977, her political career as the first out lesbian on the city and county board, and the changes and growth she has seen over time. Amy, living in the La Crosse area for seventeen years talks about her experiences with numerous family members that she has in the town, her first experiences within the La Crosse LGBTQ community, and what she has seen throughout the years and hopes to see come. This interview was conducted for inclusion into the UW-Madison Oral History Program.

Key Words: LGBTQ, La Crosse, North Bend, Madison, Mother’s, Sandy’s Keg, Players, Cavalier, Liberace, Dykes in Spikes, Sparta, softball, city board, county board, UW- La Crosse, Mother, college, 1977, 1979, potluck, La Crosse Leaping Lesbians, counselor, Red Lion, Our Place, PRIDE, pickets, sand bar, drag queens, 

First Interview Session (June 10, 2012): Audio File

Time	Keywords
00:00:00	Start of Interview/ Kara Bissen introduces Amy Deml and Jai Johnson in La Crosse, Wisconsin on June10th, 2012.

00:00:27	Question: How long have you been in La Crosse
	Answer: Amy was born in La Crosse, but not raised here. She has now been living in La Crosse for 17 years.
00:00:40	Question: Jai, how long have you been in La Crosse?
	Answer: Jai has been located in La Crosse since 1977.
00:00:48	Question: What brought you to La Crosse?
	Answer:  Jai came to La Crosse to go to the big city and to go to college.
00:01:00	Question: Where are you from before La Crosse?
	Answer: Jai is from the North Bend area, which is tiny town. She grew up on farm.
00:01:15	Question: How do you see the difference between North Bend and La Crosse?
	Answer: Because North Bend is so small, Jai never thought there was anyone else who was gay until she came to La Crosse.
00:01:49	Question: Common for a lot of rural LGBT to move to La Crosse?
	Answer: Jai is now 53 years old, and has seen much change. She says that it is probably common for rural LGBT to move to bigger cities, but things might be different now. Her experience is probably drastically different from someone born in the 1930’s.
00:02:34	Question: Amy, what brought you to La Crosse? 
	Answer: Amy came to La Crosse for family. 
00:02:46	Question: Why did you choose to stay?
	Answer: Amy eventually got to know people besides family, which made her stay. She was from Madison, and was the opposite of Jai; she didn’t think anyone was gay in La Crosse. They both make their decision on where to live depending on the acceptance of the LGBT community. Jai says that she would not want to live in a town full of bigotry.  Amy says that a La Crosse has many more gay bars than Madison did at the time, and was surprised by that. 
00:05:08	Question: Did you find a strong LGBT community here?
	Answer: Amy stated that although there is a large LGBT community in La Crosse, it is very divided and cliquey. There are certain bars designated for certain people, and the age groups are divided. Amy states that everyone is fighting for the same reason, so there should be no reason to fight amongst them.
00:06:15	Question: About what year would you say that was?
	Answer: Amy stated that it was between 1995 and 2000.
00:06:27	Question: You described the community as divided, could you describe a little more about that?
	Answer: The first time Amy went to a bar, she was approached and told to leave. Her friends said she was one of them. Amy states that if you didn’t look the role, they didn’t accept you. In La Crosse, there were women’s bars and men’s bars, but that has gotten better. Jai asked if it was because the people at the bar though Amy was straight. Amy indicated yes, because she had long hair and didn’t look butch, but once they knew who she was it got better. According to Jai, the older women would have potlucks which were an institution, and Amy said you were never exposed to different age groups. 
00:08:59	Question: Jai, have you seen the community divided?
	Answer: Jai indicate that she and Amy have two different stories, and she came to La Crosse in ’77. Jai couldn’t wait to come, and had to stay in dorms. Most of the people that she met and became friends with were from Milwaukee and Chicago, and were the party people. Jai envisioned coming out in La Crosse, but less than a week in the dorms, she heard negative gay remarks and her doors closed. In a small town rural area, no one even talked about gays, but in big cities, jokes were being made about gays. It took Jai a year and a half of angst, and was in counseling. The university only had women’s studies, and the counselor suggested going to the bar. Jai went to the Red Lion. There were two bars with tension, and the men’s bar was dance club, and the women’s bar was a skinny tavern. There was a disparity with income between genders, and the men would complain about the women.
00:12:32	[no question] Answer: Amy indicated that softball was very important. According to Jai, they looked at her, and asked her to play. The Red Lion was a big deal, which was a women’s bar, and they competed in Milwaukee against men’s teams and won. The women were really serious about it, 
00:13:25	[no question] Answer: The first time Jai went to the Red Lion, she was extremely nervous. According to Jai, it was a weird environment and an age where older lesbians that were not of the utmost character were looking for younger women. After Jai went to the bar, everything was downhill. She got comfortable and met people. She came out to her friends, and lost all but one.
00:15:23	Question: Do you want to talk more about the different bars in the area and how they have changed?
	Answer: Amy’s relative owned the first bar called Red Lion, and owned a couple more bars, like Mother’s (men’s bar). Everyone called the owner Mother. Jai says that Sandy’s Keg was a big one. Amy mentions that another bar in town became a gay bar at night, and elderly couples would stop in during the day. It was called Cavalier, and Liberace performed there. Jai says it didn’t make sense at one time, but they needed to please many people to survive because the gay community couldn’t support all of the bars. Amy says that it shows that character of the bartenders because they dealt with so many people. Several of gay bars have lasted a long time, and the city is known for its bars and drinking. They have a drinking culture, and the straight bars change hands all the time, but Michael aka Mother, had his for a long time. Rainbow’s End was also one. 
00:21:01	[no question] Answer: Jai would go to parties at Pete and John’s, who were drag queens, and they were Amy’s best friends. Pete and John moved to Las Vegas, and Pete worked as a show girl. They now came back and organize variety shows in La Crosse. 
00:22:12	Question: In what years was Red Lion and Sandy’s Keg thriving?
	Answer: Jai came out in ‘79, and the Red Lion was around for a while. It was around when people were still using back door, Amy thinks the Red Lion opened in the 60’s, and Jai states that it closed in the early 80’s.
00:23:14	Question: Same with Sandy’s Keg?
	Answer: According to Jai, Sandy’s Keg turned into Rainbow’s End. Amy states that they had it for about 20 years and that gay men bought the bar now. 
00:24:01	Question: So what bars are in town now?
	Answer: Jai indicates that Players is downtown now, and is mixed. Amy mentions that it started with mostly men, but it had dancing and everyone could move around. Now Players serves both, and has expanded and moved. Chances R, which is Rainbow’s End, is another bar. Jai mentions that Our Place is a really old bar, and that the older community now transitioned to staying home, and having someone for dinner. People have drifted apart, and are getting older and out of bar scene. There are not a ton of social connections because there are more acceptances. Friends of Jai and Amy’s, Mel and Alma, had more straight people than lesbians when they had parties. Jai felt weird because it was never a mixed party when they younger, things have changed Amy also mentions that people are moving on with their lives.
00:26:41	Question: Was there a strong division in gender when you say the Hay Days in the 80’s?
	Answer: Jai indicates that potlucks were strictly women, and so was the newsletter. Men and women did not communicate. 
00:27:28	Question: Do you want to speak more about the Hay Days, what was it like?
	Answer: Jai states that there was a huge sand bar across the river, and every 4th of July they would go, and clothing was optional. There was a lot of drinking and overnight camping. The Michigan Women’s Music Festival went on in the 80’s, and was the largest gathering with 8,000 women. Around ‘82, women could only bring female children, and the male children had to go to a special camp. PRIDE parades were getting more common, and it was a wonderful time to come out. The awfulness of growing up was made worthwhile. There were also softball tournaments in Sparta called Dykes in Spikes.
00:30:51	Question: With the Women’s Music Festival, I read that it wasn’t trans inclusive..
	Answer: Jai indicates that she didn’t know anyone that was transgender, but that it probably wasn’t inclusive because they wouldn’t allow the male children in. Amy states that transgender people were there, but in the la Crosse community, it was gay or lesbian. The drag queens were known, and would share a bathroom with women in 80-90’s.
00:33:19	[no question] Answer: According to Jai, 20 years ago, Dubuque, Iowa had a gay PRIDE parade, and people were throwing eggs and threatening the parade. Jai and several other people went to Iowa the next year, and filled the street with people. The man that was threatening was caught, and had a gun in his truck. Everything went okay, and no one was hurt.  
00:35:27	Question: You mentioned a news letter. Do you want to speak more about that?
	Answer: Jai states that the newsletter was called La Crosse Leaping Lesbians, and was written to keep people updated about potlucks and softball games. 
00:36:22	Question: What years would you say?
	Answer: Amy thinks they were still coming out in 90’s.
00:36:43	Question: That is a pretty wide spread. Twenty years, you guess?
	Answer: Jai indicates pretty close to twenty years, maybe fifteen.
00:36:52	Question: What would they write about?
	Answer: Jai states that they would literally write about potlucks, softball games, and any updates on parties, like the Valentine’s Party.
00:37:51	[no question] Answer: Jai mentions that 8 to 10 years ago, she was with her ex-girlfriends, and her ex’s sister was also lesbian. Her sister came down and said she was having breast reduction surgery, which turned out to be a transition. They had no idea, and within a year, she was Victor. Jai says everyone was scared that she wouldn’t be happy, and the situation was harder to go through than she thought it would be. Jai recently hired a man that was actually a woman that was taking hormones. According to Jai, it was an epiphany moment when someone passes so well in the community and she didn’t know.
00:40:54	[no question] Answer: Amy mentions that Victor is now married. Jai says it is confounding that he and his girlfriend can get married, but Amy and Jai can’t. Victor is not fully transitioned.
00:41:55	Question: Do you want to explain softball more to capture what is softball in La Crosse?
	Answer: Amy never played, but went to a tournament that was three days long, and was told if she didn’t have a girlfriend before going, she would when she left. There are people that camp out at the diamonds, and there is nothing in Sparta. They lived at the ball field.
00:42:57	Question: How many teams do you think there are?
	Answer: Amy indicates that there are a lot of teams. Jai said she mostly went to get drunk and pick up women, and didn’t pay much attention to softball. Amy mentions that people would sell rainbow stuff and things that you wouldn’t see as often around La Crosse. Later in the evening, a lot of people wouldn’t be wearing clothes.
00:44:20	Question: So it was more than just softball?
	Answer: Amy says that it was a social event; however, the players took it seriously. They were there to win, amongst other things. Teams from all over came.
00:45:22	Question: How long has PRIDE been in La Crosse?
	Answer: Jai states that PRIDE has not been in La Crosse very long, but she has been out of the community for a long time. Amy says she isn’t sure, but it has gotten bigger, and people are proud of it. Everyone knows PRIDE is happening, and people come and picket. A preacher was walking back and forth preaching, and Mother would go right up to him and argue every point the preacher made. Jai says she doesn’t recognize anyone, that there are many new people coming out. 
00:47:59	[no question]
	Answer: Jai mentions that it is great to see, but something is lost because it used to be them against the world. Now lives are opened up, which is a good thing, but there is somewhat of a loss. Amy believes that it would be interesting to see what PRIDE would be like if potluck people would come, but it has been a question on how to get people to come out. 
00:51:00	[no question] Answer: Jai states that one year they didn’t advertise PRIDE because they didn’t want trouble. After the year with so many people protesting, PRIDE wasn’t fun. Jai says that it gets under your skin no matter how hard you try to ignore it, Amy mentions that people don’t know when something could happen or might happen. Jai says it is an ideal opportunity for people that do not support LGBTQ people to take care of them.
00:52:55	Question: Has there been a lot of trouble at PRIDE?
	Answer: Jai mentions that there have been verbal issues. Amy states that if someone is not comfortable or out, they are going to have a hard time getting past the people holding the signs.  The picketers have been the main problem.
00:53:48	Question: How does the greater La Crosse community respond to PRIDE?
	Answer: Amy states that PRIDE is not a big issue, just someone using the fest grounds. Jai mentions that Mayor Mettigner spoke, and that the mayors now would not be the type of people to support PRIDE.
00:54:51	[no question] Answer: Jai mentions that at the beginning of Oktoberfest last year, Schleger made a big deal about a rainbow flag being part of the parade, and that someone so prominent being so overt at a public event is sobering.
00:56:10	Question: Did the community meet with people from Riverfest?
	Answer: Amy indicates that that’s what they were told, but they used the American flag and got veterans involved. Amy mentions that no one knows what the LGBTQ community said either. Jai says that it could have gone differently if it was addressed differently. Amy would have liked to have seen a press conference to help the communities see that La Crosse is trying to all get along. 
00:59:14	[no question] Answer: Jai mentions that La Crosse is a strange place, and is almost two cities coexisting. There is the liberal straight people that do fundraisers for Fair Wisconsin, and another element. The progressive and regressive reactionary La Crosse is the other. Jai is the first out lesbian on the city counsel. Not sure how LGBTQ people get equal rights if they are an invisible minority. Jai is also the first lesbian on county board. Amy mentions that if she runs again, they have to think about who the voters are. Amy believes that the LGBT community in La Crosse needs to focus on people that are prominent in the community to show kids who are struggling that they can be married with kids and a normal life. 
01:06:44	Question: What resources are available in the La Crosse area?
	Answer: Amy mentions that there is a LGBT center, and doesn’t know of much besides bars. They have a GSA in the high school, and there are more offered at the high school level and in college. 
01:08:14	Question: Have you seen resources change through generations?
	Answer:  Amy mentions that the resources are more accessible.
01:08:26	Question: What do you think is the biggest difference for this generation of gays in La Crosse?
	Answer:  Jai believes that the resources are a big difference, and Amy mentions that someone can come out earlier and not be afraid. Jai mentioned that high school was the four worst years of her life.
01:09:28	Question: You said earlier that you saw a counselor when you came out?
	Answer:  Jai indicates that she did see a counselor. 
01:09:33	Question: What was that like?
	Answer:  Jai states that she experiences a lot of crying, and thought that once was she old enough to leave everything would work out. Jai states that her hopes were up too high with La Crosse, but everything turned out alright.
01:10:09	Question: Would you say La Crosse is a good place to be out in?
	Answer: Jai believes that La Crosse is pretty good. It could be better, but it could be worse. 
01:10:26	Question: How do you see La Crosse fitting in on the national movements?
	Answer: Amy believes that it is hard to tell, but you can now register as domestic partners. 
01:10:58	Question: Are you two listed as domestic partners?
	Answer: Amy and Jai are listed as domestic partners, and were excited about it, but they knew the media was there and they didn’t want the attention focused on them. Amy says they waited a week until media was not so focused. Jai mentions that La Crosse expected a lot of people, but there were only 11 on first day. Some people wouldn’t because can’t get married, but it’s a step. Amy says you have to take what we can get, and that it is a way of counties to generate money. Jai is hoping to be able to marry in her lifetime, and believes that things are changing fast.
01:14:22	[no question] Answer: Jai states that she is not as connected with the community as she used to be, and has shifted her attention on different issues, which makes her happy and sad because she is living life, but could make more time to do things.
01:15:32	Question: How did you used to see yourself in the gay community?
	Answer: Jai saw herself as a great catch, and dated almost every lesbian in La Crosse. She was in her 30’s before she lived with her first partner. Jai mentions that when you come out when you are 20, you still have to go through teenage stuff.
01:17:08	Question: What would you consider to be milestones for the community? 
	Answer: Amy states that some states can marry, and that in La Crosse, you can have a domestic partnership. Jai mentions that LGBTQ are now included at a federal level of discrimination, and president saying he supports gay marriage are big. Although Jai believes it doesn’t accomplish much, to have a sitting president to speak out during an election year is big. Also, companies started doing domestic partnership benefits. 
01:21:09	Question: In your political career, do you bring up LGBTQ issues?
	Answer: Jai mentions that she usually focuses on environment and that LGBTQ issues haven’t come up. Amy states that there are a lot of issues at the city level that need to be taken care of. Jai states that there is less you can do on a local level, but you can live your life in an open way
01:22:55	Question: In La Crosse, are there any open and accepting churches?
	Answer: Amy mentions that they do know of some that say they are open, but it depends on the religion. Christian Science church is accepting, but doesn’t take on controversial issues.
01:24:56	Question: Is there anything else that you think needs to be included in this?
	Answer: Jai says we should take a break. 
01:25:18	Question: Could you speak a bit more about the gay music scene in La Crosse?
	Answer: Jai mentions Melroe Café in Galesville which was owned by a lesbian couple, and had performances out of Madison and Minnesota. Amy mentions that Ronnie Lyles played at Rainbow’s End, and that Liberace was a flamboyant man, and the fact that he came to play and was so flamboyant was a big deal. His partner was from La Crosse. 
01:28:12	Question: What is the presence of drag performance or female or male performers in La Crosse?
	Answer:  Amy mentions that Illusions is going on its sixth year, and performs once every couple of months. They had to switch bars, but they bring in big crowds. La Crosse has a Gay Mississippi Paegent. Jai mentions that Pete went to high school with Amy’s dad, and he went to school in drag. Two good friends of Jai’s, Allen and Glen aka Alicia and Glenda, came to school in drag everyday in Adams Friendship, and were vocal at the university. Amy mentions that they were pioneers for the community along with Michael Hansen, aka Mother, and they made it easier for future generations.
01:32:05	[no question] Answer: Jai mentions that she was at a Halloween party at Allen and Glen’s and “Death” came to the door. Two months later, someone shot through the window. Both Allen and Glen died of AIDS, and have been gone for a long time. 
01:33:10	Question: Did AIDS hit La Crosse hard?
	Answer: Jai states that people that she knew moved away and contracted AIDS elsewhere. Amy states that in 80’s, people left for bigger and better things and went to bigger cities. In La Crosse, there are people with AIDS, but you don’t hear about it. There used to be a Red Ribbon Foundation that did fundraisers to help AIDS patients get to the doctor and help with expenses, but it doesn’t exist anymore. Jai mentions that the county keeps record of AIDS cases, and there have never been huge numbers.
01:35:28	Question: What do you think has been the moments where the community has regressed?
	Answer: According to Jai, the incident with the Riverfest Commodore was like déjà vu. To her, it seemed like it was 1960 instead of 2010, and was just a realization to how far they have come and how far they have not come. Jai also mentions Tattoos, women’s bar, closing as a big deal because it was a place where a lot of people congregated to. Not having a newsletter or regular get together is also a regression to Jai. Amy states that hate crimes are not public here, and that there may be more that no one knows about. 
01:37:51	Question: The shooting sounded like a big thing.
	Answer: According to Jai, the shooting was not even in the paper, and she knew about it because they were friends. Amy mentions that their neighborhood is a low income neighborhood, and the neighbors know who they are, but they don’t hear comments or anything. Everyone talks to them.
01:38:57	Question: Do you think the gay community is becoming more integrated with the straight community?
	Answer: Jai believes that the gay community is interwoven with bigger society. Amy states that she and Jai work with the same corporation, and everyone knows they are a couple, and are addressed as a couple. Amy and Jai don’t go around talking about it with everyone, but they don’t hide it either. Jai mentions that her boss spent a week trying to stop gay pastors in Minnesota, and that familiarity sometimes breeds acceptance. Jai believes people are progressing.
01:42:51	Question: We were talking about if the generation now seems more integrated with the straight community. 
	Answer: Amy states that they have a colorful neighborhood, and everyone sees them, but they are quiet compared to the other activity. Jai mentions that La Crosse has the second highest poverty rate in Wisconsin next to Milwaukee. 
01:44:51	[no question] Answer: A friend of Jai’s, Alma Noll fell, and she wasn’t conscious. Melanie was her partner, and was able to make decisions at the hospital, but couldn’t make decisions with Alma’s corpse. Alma’s mom had to sign for the mortuary. Amy states that Jai was very sick, and she could make decisions. The hospital staff knew she was her partner, and never treated her differently. The healthcare system is making a huge leap. Amy never felt neglected, and everyone knew she was the one to come to. Jai states that it’s about people not laws, and had a girlfriend that smashed her face in 1979. Jai was hardly let in, and was treated with disdain from each professional. 
01:50:52	Question: Would you describe the LGBTQ community as diverse with race and class?
	Answer: Amy said it is diverse with color, as La Crosse does have a huge Hmong community, but isn’t really sure if she knows any out gay Hmong people, or how diverse it is.  
01:51:49	Question: Do you think it is divided?
	Answer: Amy states that percentages would show that it is divided.  
01:52:45	Question: Was it more white when you came?
	Answer:  According to Jai, it was not divided from anything; the community was just almost all white people.
01:53:09	Question: How do you see education fitting in with awareness around LGBTQ issues?
	Answer: Amy states that because there are three colleges in La Crosse, things are more open, especially at UW-La Crosse.
01:53:54	Question: Would you want to talk about that more?
	Answer: According to Amy, her gay cousin was named prom king. He was very open, and because he was chosen shows a lot about schools and how it isn’t an issue. Everything is based on personality.  Jai mentions a girl that wanted to bring her girlfriend to prom at another school, and the school cancelled Prom. Amy says it made national news, and Ellen helped with the case.
01:55:41	[no question] Answer: According to Jai, Ellen played a big role by coming out in her sitcom. Since she is one of most popular talk show hosts in world and has likeability factor off charts, people didn’t realize they could like someone LGBTQ so much.
01:56:26	Question: What changes would you like to see?
	Answer: Amy would like to see regular benefits. She wouldn’t have a big ceremony because it is too much stress, but just wants legal rights to social security, filing taxes. They already have joint accounts. Jai would be content with a civil union, and wants the legal rights that go along with marriage, and the social sanction. Jai believes there is no reason why they should have a different status.
01:58:29	[no question] Answer: Amy wants to be able to mark “married” and not “single” on sheets because when you are in a partnership, you are only lying to yourself when you mark “single.” She also wants people to acknowledge them, and not say they aren’t actually married. Some of their relatives support it, but others do not.
01:59:56	[no question] Answer: Amy mentions that Facebook has a domestic partnership marital status, and Jai states that it was surprising how many emotions their domestic partnership evoked.  
02:01:18	[no question] Answer: Amy was hesitant to tell people about their domestic partnership. Jai states that Amy’s family was upset that they didn’t tell them about Amy and Jai’s domestic partnership right away. Although Amy comes from a family that has LGBT in its genes, she is not sure how many people would actually show up for a wedding. Jai says a celebration would be nice, just like everyone else, but would want to avoid the conspicuous disapproval of people. 
02:04:37	[no question] Answer: Although Amy comes from a large, accepting family, she wouldn’t want to be a spectacle for her family members that just want to see women kissing if they had a wedding. Jai’s family is not as accepting, and wouldn’t be the most positive about a wedding. Jai would like to achieve something similar like colorblindness, and to be treated like everyone else.

02:06:41	End of First Interview Session

End of Oral History #XXX