UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #205
PENN, RAYMOND

PENN, Raymond (1911-1982)
Graduate Student; Professor of Agricultural Economics
At UW: 1937-1941; 1946-1974

Interviewed: 1981	 
Interviewer: Douglas Yanggen
Indexed (time code) by: Elaine Ayers
Length: 2 hours, 15 minutes  

Development of water law before 1949; Issues in building dams; Cranberry growers' concerns; Ground water issues; University irrigation research; Governor Oscar Rennebohm's statement on water policy; 1949 seminar on water law with Jacob Beuscher and Vernon Carstensen; Influence on legislation; Subsequent developments; Shorelines zoning; Farm organizations and water law; Wisconsin Valley Improvement Company; Need for zoning; University faculty involved in Natural Resources Committee of State Agencies; Land Tenure Center.

Comments:  This interview was done specifically on the subject of water law in Wisconsin by two associates of Dr. Penn's.

Tape 1/Side 1

00:00:01	RP's experience focused in 1949, '57, '65.

00:00:25	Developments of water law in Wisconsin up until 1949.  Side track on main issues--question of permits for dams, who has the right to issue these.

00:01:49	Conservation & Roy Trelain.  1946--story of Dairyland Co-operative dam that was opposed by the State Conservation Commission.  RP's connection.

00:06:34	Another involvement with dams.  Chippewa River, a bridge across it.  First time question of county or state to issue permits came up.
	
00:08:37	Water law.  Cranberry growers' involvement.

00:10:13	W.P.A. in '30s.  The building of dams.  How authorization of filling one stream from another came into being.  Tie in with cranberry growers.

00:12:07	Public Service Commission was to issue permits under surface water law--only one until 1949 to Green Bay Reformatory.

00:13:01	Ground water law.  Huber vs. Merkel (1904)--person who owns land can do anything with water underneath it.  Legislature's provision on this.  Wells. Surface runoff, flood control--nothing on this.  

00:16:38	Things coming together in 1949: a dry year, irrigators pumping water from everywhere; the Motin Company made equipment that made it possible for one man to reset irrigation in central sand area.  Oil drilling equipment.  How it had helped the sand area.

00:20:08	President Truman's efforts to develop a national water policy.  Martin Tarkolphson.  Got Governor Rennebohm to issue a statement on Wisconsin water policy.  This stirred things up.

00:21:43	Jake Beuscher, Vernon Carstensen and RP--1949 seminar on water laws and policy.  Glen Coats.  Impact these two had on Wisconsin water laws.

00:23:13	RP shows documents on Wisconsin water laws.

00:24:50	A draft for state legislation that came from the seminar--setting up a Natural Resources Committee of State Agencies.

00:25:25	A legislative committee set up on water policy.  Included:  Melvin Laird, Vernon Thompson, Warren Knowles.  Report written by Earl Sasche.

00:28:15	End of side.

Tape 1/Side 2

00:28:17	What to say next.

00:29:04	Importance of 1949.  A dry year.  People thought some of the stream water diversions shouldn't be.  This lead to prosecutions by Roy Trelain.  An effort by conservation interests.  Ways people got around getting permits--examples of a potato grower (Neil Prosser) near Antigo.  The issue this brought up.  Coat's involvement.  Earnie Bean.  How he did it.

00:35:14	Legislature from that time on made provisions for diversions to riparian land.  Another event of 1949 Trelain's issued definition of riparian land.  Most restricted one could have made.  Chain of title test.  Example.  Caught all potato and cranberry growers.

00:37:21	Legal counsel for Public Service Commission 1950 was Neil Prosser's attorney so nothing done about water law.

00:38:35	1957--Fond du Lac needed water; didn't know where to get it.  Bought land outside of town, in Empire, to put wells in and pump water to Fond du Lac.

00:40:03	Backtrack to 1951.  Legislature enacted Natural Resources Committee of State Agencies (NRCSA) into law.  Was thought that this was good place to discuss natural resource issue and come up with workable solutions.  The membership of this committee.  Would not let RP on any water committees.  Was on land committees.  RP got J. Beuscher on same committees with R. Trelain because Beuscher could always counter-argue.

00:42:15	What the committee did on water.  Real issue seemed to be that water should be used as water, no matter what type of water it was and should be treated as the same resource.  Water subcommittees first reaction was bill to give state control of underground water (i.e. have to have permit to drill a well).  Tried to pass it for ten years.

00:44:33	RP points out that J. Beuscher and Coat's 1949 seminar started to indicate idea of zoning for water regulations.  How these would work.

00:45:51	Wherever water is to be gotten, the permit is issued in relation to what it does to the total water resources in the area.

00:46:20	Back to proposal by NRCSA and how poor it was.  How the definition of riparian land was changed.

00:47:20	Statement of the issue--zoning.  NRCSA didn't manage this.  What the committee was used for.  How RP was affected.  Ira Baldwin's involvement.  Earnie Swift.

00:48:57	1957--Back to Empire and Fond du Lac case involving groundwater.  Supreme Court's decision-Fond du Lac can take the water from the land they owned, but no longer a constitutional right as established by Huber vs. Merkel, but the state legislature's decision.  How this may affect rural people.

00:50:46	Work done with different agencies on a bill that set up zones and requirements on use of water in them.  Wipes out distinction between ground and surface water.  Gave one agency right to issue the water permits.  Bill not as popular as RP's group thought it would be.  The part allowing one agency to issue permits was what was upsetting.  The outcome: Board of Health, Public Service Commission, and Conservation Commission consolidates.  Further explanation.

00:55:52	Kellett Commission.  Consolidation of state government agencies in general.

00:56:32	End of side.

Tape 2/Side 1

00:00:01	Walter Scott.

00:00:43	1957.  Trying to combine agencies and their functions.  The bill.  Its support (or lack thereof) in the legislature.  Not enough public support.  The bill dropped.

00:03:16	List of committee members.  Many meetings.  Asked if a need for water-use legislation.  Things they did--RP lists one.  Thirteen recommendations.

00:05:25	What was the reaction to the dropping of Bill 616A, RP discusses.  Comments added by interviewer.

00:08:39	About 1957--changes in the law.  Except committee said not needed.  Governor Knowles appointed a water committee.  Some confusion.  Some "history" behind 616.  Setting up of subcommittee on water.  In December 1956 lots of water "happenings."  Integration of whole water system.  The water committee was to put some input into 616.  Final form of this bill submitted in 1957.

00:12:06	616 didn't pass, but not dropped either.  Legislature wanted to set up another committee to hold hearings of all people in state and so on.  Out of this came four proposals: stream bank straightening, ground water transfer to the public permit, and other small laws--some of these listed.

00:19:33	High cap well permit program vs. changing the basis for ground water law in Wisconsin.  A state permit system.  An attempt to overturn Huber vs. Merkel by NRCSA.

00:21:42	More about the committee that held hearing.  Potter Committee.  Some of the things the committee worked on.  Were to come up with some sort of legislation--614.

00:23:00	Talked governor into having a conference on water use.  Governor's Conference on Water Resources Management in Wisconsin.  Names those on Potter Committee--they helped set up the conference.  Governor Nelson Rockefeller one of the main speakers.  A story he told.

00:25:53	How 614 passed.  A twelfth-hour decision by Nelson.  Jake Beuscher's part.  Happenings in the legislature--the mood.

00:30:56	Why Knowles appointed the committee in the first place--because there were a lot of people interested in water legislation.

00:31:29	End of side.

Tape 2/Side 2

00:31:32	Work of Ed Berkland, Duncan Harkin, Doug Yanggen on shorelines zoning concept.  What they did.

00:32:36	Farm organization, their attitudes, involvement in discussions of water law.  RP went to some of their meeting.  Story of a potato growers meeting.  A speech RP gave to Farm Bureau.  Members of Farm Unions and Farm Bureau weren't all that particularly interested.  One of the reasons the bills not pushed.

00:37:55	Where the Wisconsin Valley Improvement Company has a book-keeping system.  A bit about this company.

00:39:50	Ground water and surface water permits.

00:46:04	End of side.

End of Mp3 File.

Tape 3/Side 1

00:00:01	Zoning.  Vehicle of compromise.  Procedures for an administration should be at a minimum.  Doesn't make sense to RP to zone unless you have ideas that should be carried out.  This zoning had never been carried through--still state-wide water laws.  Things tried in the '70s, and before.  Zones had actually been marked out by Torkelson in the '30s.  Jake Beuscher got zoning idea started up again.  The necessity of planning.

00:11:37	Shorelines Zoning Law.  The part the three interviewers played in its passage.

00:12:35	Getting Lake States Region developed.  Wisconsin's involvement.  Cleaning lakes and improving shore land.

00:16:55	Land Tenure Center--RP's water contact lessened from 1962 to '65 when this was started.  Dealt with Latin American countries.  The connection with Land Problem seminar.  Parsons.

00:27:00	People in local governments and those not--how to keep contact is suggested as something for RP to discuss at some time.

00:29:00	How do you decide what is the most appropriate local level for the decision to be made at?  RP gives some interesting examples of how the decision was made at different times.

00:31:29	End of interview.

END