UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
MADISON’S LGBT COMMUNITY, 1960s-PRESENT

Interview #940
Bosworth, Lewis

Bosworth, Lewis (1942- )
UW Undergraduate Student (1960-1964), Wisconsin State employee 
At UW: 1972-2003
						
Interviewed: 2009 (3/20, 4/7)	
Length: 84 minutes, 65 minutes
Interviewer: Scott Seyforth
Index by: Scott Seyforth
Series: Madison’s LGBT Community, 1960s to present

Abstract (all sessions): In his two March/April 2009 interviews with Scott Seyforth, Lewis Bosworth discusses his contrasting experiences in Madison during the 1960s and 1970s through 2009 and the following topics: His personal experience as a gay student at UW-Madison, the Gay Purge of 1962, Kronshage dorm, gay bars‑including, 602, Kollege Klub, Pirate Ship, Back Door, and Hotel Washington‑The Rodney Scheel House, The Magic Picnic, and gay slang. Bosworth talks about his experiences as Treasurer for The Gay Center and working on the gay magazine, “The Endeavor,” and about his friendship with Rodney Scheel, owner/operator of Hotel Washington. Bosworth also discusses his work as a pastor at Lutheran Memorial Church and his work as a member of the Wisconsin Conference of Churches Task Force on AIDS. This interview was conducted for inclusion into the UW—Madison Oral History Program. 

Keywords (all sessions): University of Wisconsin—Madison; Gay Purge of 1962: Dean of Men, Ted Zellman; Madison Gay Bars in 1960s and 70s: 602, Kollege Club, Pirate Ship, Back Door; Kronshage Dorms; Gay slang; Jess Anderson; Warren Olson; Rodney Scheel; The Gay Center (1970s Madison group); Rod’s; Hotel Washington; The New Bar; The Back Bar; AIDS crisis; Lutheran Memorial Church; Magic Picnic; Lutheran Memorial Gay, Lesbian and Friends Fellowship.

First Interview Session (March 20, 2009): Digital File

00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:35 	Question: Brief biography. Answer: Bosworth was born in Detroit, MI in 1942. His family moved briefly to Fort Wayne, IN and finally to the St. Louis area where Bosworth spent most of his childhood.  Bosworth came to UW-Madison as an undergraduate in the fall of 1960. Bosworth then pursued graduate work at University of Michigan-Ann Arbor in Romance Linguistics in the fall of 1964. In 1969 he went to Middletown Connecticut to Wesleyan University and served three years as Assistant Dean of the College and lecturer in French and Linguistics. Bosworth returned to Madison in 1972. 

00:02:40	Question: Can you talk about your coming out experiences in Madison in the early 1960s. Answer: Bosworth explains he how he was sexually active throughout his childhood, but didn’t come out as homosexual until coming to college. Bosworth explains how, as an undergraduate, he got to know many gay graduate students in the French Department. Bosworth describes how bars where gay men gathered. Bosworth spent one year abroad in the south of France. 

00:06:35	Question: What has made the French Department such a gathering place for gay men for such a long time? Answer: Bosworth says it’s stereotypical, but true. Bosworth thinks young gay men are just attracted to French. 

00:07:26	[No question] There were two gay purges at UW-Madison. One in the late 1950’s and one in 1962. In the late 1950s there were faculty members that were found out due to homosexual sexual activity in restrooms on campus. In 1962 Dean of Men, Ted Zillman, and members of the Protection and Security Department, began questioning men believed to be gay about their sexual behavior. They would get students to give them names of other gay men on campus and compiled a long list of suspected gay men on campus. Bosworth was alerted to this by a friend on campus. Bosworth ignored calls from the Dean’s Office to come talk to them. Detective Roirdan, of Protection and Security Department, came to Bosworth’s place of employment at University Hospitals, pulled him out of an operating room, and threatened him with refusing to meet with University Officials. Bosworth then went to meet with Dean Zillman. Bosworth denied being homosexual and refused to give names. Bosworth had his scholarship to study abroad taken away after it was promised to him as a result of the purge. One of Bosworth’s gay friends threatened to sue the Dean and was left completely alone. 

00:16:50	Question: You had friends who had scholarships taken away? Answer: Bosworth explains that some had to leave graduate programs because they had graduate assistantships taken away. 

00:17:47	Question: What did Dean Zellman charge you with? What information did he actually have?  Answer: Bosworth says the Dean attempted to get him to admit to be a homosexual. The Dean also wanted Bosworth to give him names of other young gay men. Bosworth met with the Dean because he was afraid he would be expelled if he did not. Bosworth lied to protect himself, and told the Dean he didn’t know any homosexuals.

00:18:58	Question: How many of your friends were contacted? Answer: Bosworth says many were contacted. One of his roommates at the time was a gay man, was contacted, and was so upset by the experience he left school.  Bosworth went abroad for a year. When he came back the purge activity had died down. 

00:21:55	Question: How would people know what bars gay people met in? Answer: Bosworth explains how some bars were liquor bars and some were only beer bars. Students had to be 21 to go to a liquor bar. Because Bosworth wanted to go to the 602 he started going, not ordering, and attempting to blend in. After a period of time, Bosworth became known to the staff and he could go order at the bar. Bosworth explains how the bar had an unofficial code that gay men gathered at the front of the bar and straights in the back at the tables.  Question: How did straight patrons feel about gays at the 602? Answer: Bosworth doesn’t think they noticed. 

00:25:43	Question: Were there rules about where and when people met at the KK? Answer: Bosworth says the KK was very cruisy. Men met other men there. Bosworth explains that the big difference between the 602 and the KK was the age difference. Younger people went to the KK because it was a beer bar and older people met at the 602, a liquor bar. 

00:28:21	[No question] There was an afterhours café on State Street that was owned by two Danish matrons. Many gay men would hang out there after the bars closed. There was a waitress there named “Patty Poo,” who had a huge gay male following as she was very gay friendly. She would later go on to be a bartender at the Pirate Ship, along with former Sheriff Bill Ferris. “Patty Poo” had bad hygiene, but was beloved by gay men. Bosworth emphasized that there were not really any places for lesbians at this time. 

00:32:28	Question: What were the dorms like as a freshman? Answer: Bosworth lived in the Kronshage buildings which were all male at the time. He used to spend many nights away from the dorms with his male lover, Richard.  His male lover lived with Professor Helen Allen, of Home Economics, of the Allen textile collection. Question: Did people notice you missing at the dorm? Answer: Bosworth describes his father trying to get him at all hours of the day and having no luck. Bosworth describes having several gay male friends in the Kronshage dorms. This group all had girlfriends “for show.” The group would triple and quadruple date together at the Hasty Tasty and the Badger Tavern. Question: Was the girlfriend a way of managing stigma. Answer: Bosworth says he feels there was an element of needing to “cover-up” to the larger society. Not to other gays, but to the larger society. 

00:41:19	Question: Its hard today for gay men on all-male floors in the dorms. Answer: Bosworth describes Burl Price, a grad student in French, who took Bosworth “under his wing.” Burl started sending Bosworth gifts and flowers at the dorm. Bosworth had to lie about who these things were coming from. 

00:44:44	Question: Did you want to explain who Schmitty was? Answer: He was a bartender at the 602 who was really gay friendly. Bosworth explains being at the bars with another gay friend and talking in gay slang to each other, in French, as a way of not being understood. People might know French, he explained, but they wouldn’t usually understand the gay slang they were using. Question: Other gay slang? Answer: “Big Blue Eyes” was slang for large male genitalia. “Mary” was used as a name with other gay men, not in public. “Mother” was used to identify the person who brought you out, or who one first had sex with. 

00:48:46	Question: Should we fast-forward to your return to Madison? Answer: Bosworth explains coming back to Madison in 1972. He first lived with his old friend, Jess Anderson, who helped re-introduce him to the area and helped him meet others in town. After six months he bought the house he still lives in. 

00:52:25	Question: What was going on the gay community at that time, and what seemed different?  Answer: Bosworth says the place of action was the Pirate Ship and the surrounding parking lots were very cruisy. Bosworth says, “The Senate” was a gay meeting place, what is now “Paul’s Club” was a gay meeting place. There were two bookstores on State Street by 1972 that were very cruisy.

00:56:05	Question: Did you ever go to the Back Door? Answer: The Back Door was called that because you entered it through the back door. You first came upon a coatroom with a baby grand piano. The bar was in the basement and was not a large space. But it was popular. The Back Door had competitors: The Pirate Ship, The Shamrock, and Going My Way. 

01:01:52 	Question: Were you involved in The Gay Center? Answer: Bosworth worked then as Undergraduate Director of Orientation at UW-Madison, and later worked in Admissions. He hired a friend of his named Chuck to work in the Orientation office in the early 1970s. Chuck had been the Treasurer of The Gay Center. After several years Chuck left Madison and Bosworth took this over from Chuck when he left and performed the role for several years in the late 1970s. Later Bosworth had some lesbian friends living with him. They all worked on a gay magazine named, “The Endeavor.” Bosworth describes having trouble marketing it, and it only had one issue.
01:07:16 	Question: Talk about Rod’s and how you got involved in that. Answer: Bosworth describes meeting Warren Olson, a former professor of Psychiatry at UW-Madison in 1972. Olson was the partner of Rodney Scheel. Olson met Rodney when he was a senior in high school. They were together until Rodney’s death in 1990. Scheel operated The Back Door, and then the Hotel Washington. When Rod’s opened, Bosworth volunteered to work the door on Sunday nights, which was “Beer Bash” night for about four years. Later Bosworth created a small levi/leather store at Rod’s – buying the merchandise. Bosworth continued working at Rod’s as a bartender, then as assistant to the manager, and later as assistant to Rodney Scheel. Later Scheel opened the New Bar, a dance bar. After that Scheel added to Rod’s with the “Back Bar, a den of iniquity if ever there were one.” Bosworth described the Hotel Washington including straight venues such as the Barber’s Closet, Café Palms, Club DeWash. Bosworth  mentions there were rooms for rent also.

01:14:23	Question: What does leather/levi mean? Answer: You could buy hankies at the store in all 24 colors (that signified preferences for different sexual acts). Bosworth describes editing the Rod’s newsletter. It included noticed of upcoming events. Patrons signed up to receive the newsletter at the bar. Bosworth says there were 1,200 addresses on the list at its height. Bosworth described editing a tenth anniversary booklet published for Rod’s tenth anniversary. Bosworth remembers that Scheel died shortly after Rod’s tenth anniversary. Bosworth remembers writing Scheel’s obituary. Bosworth says that at the time he was deacon at his church, where Warren Olson was also a member. When Scheel died of AIDS, Olson asked the former pastor at the church to perform the service. Bosworth remembers the pastor asking him to serve communion at the service. The pastor told Bosworth he had never seen the church so full as at Rod’s funeral. 

01:22:03	Question: Seyforth suggests ending here and picking up again later. 

01:24:32 End of Interview

Second Interview Session (April 7, 2009): Digital File

00:00	Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction

00:00:33	Question: We ended discussing Rodney Scheel, maybe we could pick up three today. Answer: Bosworth describes Scheel’s coming out in high school, meeting his longtime partner Warren Olson, founding of the bars The Back Door, and Rod’s. Bosworth describes his work at Rod’s as bartender, Rod’s newsletter Editor, and as manager of the levi/leather store at Rod’s called, “Something Different.” Bosworth describes the other gay bars at the Hotel Washington: The New Bar, and the Back Bar. 

00:08:27	[No question.] Bosworth describes how Madison Developer Randy Alexander, owner of the property adjoining the Hotel Washington didn’t like gay people, didn’t get along with Scheel, and built a large fence around his property adjoining the Hotel Washington. 

00:10:18	[No question.] Bosworth discusses Scheel’s illness with AIDS. Bosworth describes writing Scheel’s obituary. Bosworth describes Scheel’s funeral at Lutheran Memorial Church. Bosworth was asked to serve communion at the service, and had to educate gay men attending the service about the rituals in the Lutheran service. He describes the funeral as the largest the church had ever seen. 

00:14:47	Question: Is there a story you have that would describe what Rodney Scheel was like to work for? Answer: Bosworth describes Scheel as a “brilliant, very astute businessman.” He was known for his good looks and contagious smile. Scheel had a high libido, and he and his partner had an open relationship. Bosworth describes parties Scheel would hold at his home, ice skating parties, etc. Bosworth describes being a notary public and being called to Scheel’s home shortly before he died to notarize a document. Scheel was so sick he could barely sign the document. 

00:18:25	Question: Describe the advertising done for Rod’s. Answer: Bosworth describes the Hotel having a sizeable following of gay men from around the state and Chicago. Bosworth describes being largely in charge of advertising for Rod’s. Bosworth describes going on tours to visit the owners of gay bars in the state, and other communities, to make connections and publicize Rod’s. Question: Talk about what you did for birthdays.  Answer: Bosworth describes the tradition at Rod’s of tearing patron’s underwear off and hanging it from the pipes on the basement ceiling. Bosworth describes making “No Underwear” buttons to promote this tradition by taking it to a local graphics company only to find the company was owned by a pillar of Bosworth’s church. Question: Did you maintain a birthday list by month of Rod’s patron’s?  Answer: Bosworth describes how patrons would sign-up for the mailing list by filling out a card, which also asked for the patron’s birthday. Rod’s would then send each patron a birthday card, and invited them to come to a monthly birthday party for that month’s birthday boys. Bosworth describes the difficulty in keeping the Rod’s mailing list up to date, which he disliked doing. 

00:28:12	Question: You mentioned wanting to talk about the Rodney Scheel House. Answer: This was administered largely by his administrative assistant Pam Gielser. Bosworth describes the House as a place where people with AIDS could go for care, and a kind of hospice. 

00:29:40	Question: Would you describe the MAGIC Picnic? Answer: Bosworth describes the MAGIC Picnic, (MAGIC short for Madison Area Gay Interim Committee) as happening at Brittingham park. Bosworth describes these as July events, usually lasting from 11:00 – 6:00pm that included a picnic with brats, hamburgers, and kegs of beer. The event drew a number of gay men and lesbian women. Scheel would plan a number of events including a balloon toss and a High Heel Race. Bosworth describes the importance of the event as a political event in that the picnic had a number of booths from local service agencies and organizations such as The Gay Center. 

00:36:19	Question: Should we talk about your church work? Answer: Bosworth describes his church, Lutheran Memorial Church, as having a large gay and lesbian membership. Bosworth describes a group of four parishioners approaching the pastor of Lutheran Memorial Church, Harvey Peters, if the church could become affiliated with the Reconciled In Christ Movement. This movement seeks for Lutheran church congregations to declare themselves accepting and affirming of all members of the church, regardless of ethnicity, age, or sexual orientation. The four that approached the pastor were all gay. They were Bosworth, Gary Brown, Nancy Barklage, and Shirley Dawson. The pastor told them they did not need to declare themselves affirming because they already were. The group then asked the pastor to start a gay and lesbian group at the church. Their meetings would happen once a month, usually include a hymn, a prayer, food, and some sort of speaker. These meetings were always open to the entire congregation. Bosworth describes one occasion where the group brought in a panel of PFLAG (Parents & Friends of Lesbians and Gays) members to speak to the church, including Joe and Joanne Elder and Jane LaFlash. Bosworth describes on another occasion bringing in Professor Jim Steakley to give his talk on “Nazi Persecution of the Homosexuals.” Bosworth describes putting an ad in the LGBT Resource Guide for the group. 

00:45:23	[No question.] Bosworth describes calling the group “Lutheran Memorial Gay, Lesbian and Friends Fellowship.” Bosworth describes how the group had disbanded in the current decade. The current pastor told him it had outlived its usefulness. Bosworth describes with some amusement that in 2006 the Congregation Council of Lutheran Memorial voted to become a Reconciled In Christ Congregation. Question: I’m curious what the reaction was from the congregation to the Fellowship group?  Answer: Bosworth describes the reaction to the group being very positive. He says he might have expected people to be upset, but he never saw or heard anything. The pastor was very supportive, Bosworth said. Bosworth describes his pastor predicting he would see gay marriage before his retirement, but it did not come to pass. Question: What was average attendance at your meetings?  Answer: 12-14 people at the meetings. But the events would attract a lot of people. Bosworth describes church groups taking turns hosting students from the Lutheran Campus Center next door to a lunch once a month. The first time the Gay, Lesbian and Friends Fellowship hosted the lunch, Bosworth was afraid no students would show. But, many students did show, and they treated them like any other group. Bosworth describes serving on the Wisconsin Conference of Churches Task Force on AIDS. He was the only gay member of the Task Force on AIDS. Question: What kinds of things did the Task Force do? Answer: The Task Force did some programming. One was hosting an author who wrote a book about her son’s struggle with AIDS called, “My Son Eric.”

00:58:33	Question: Is there anything else you want to say about your faith journey?  Answer: Bosworth describes how difficult it is for Roman Catholics, given the church’s stand on homosexuality. Bosworth says he was not raised feeling guilty about being gay. 

01:00:33	Question: What accounts for the affirming nature of your church?  Answer: Bosworth thinks it has to do a lot with the congregation members. Bosworth discusses how open and affirming First Baptist Church in Madison has been, an American Baptist congregation and very active in supporting gays and lesbians. Question: It’s interesting that a lot of the most open and affirming churches all seem to be centered around the University. Do you get that sense? Answer: Bosworth says there are a couple prominent exceptions, one being Lake Edge Lutheran in Monona. The pastor there was very open and affirming. Woody Carey was pastor at a Presbyterian Church on the East Side that was very open and affirming. Question: Do you remember the names of the two women who helped establish the Gay, Lesbian and Friends Fellowship?  Answer: One is still a Professor of Psychiatry on campus, Nancy Barklage. The other is not in town any longer, Shirley Dawson. 

01:04:11	Question: Do you have anything else you would like to add?  Answer: Bosworth describes how he intends to leave his archive of Rod’s ephemera to the Wisconsin Historical Society. 

01:06:27 End of Interview

END