UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview #372
LAVINE, EILEEN MARTINSON

LAVINE, Eileen Martinson (1924- )
Undergraduate Student
At UW: 1941-1945

Interviewed: 1983	
Interviewer: Mailed questionnaire
Length: 1 hour, 12 minutes

Background; Reasons for coming to UW; Courses, advisors, professors and majors; Career ambitions; Class format; Army students, women students and graduate students; Grades and blue exam books; Lavine as first female editor of Daily Cardinal;  Sororities and rooming houses; Rathskeller; Jewish students; Activities; Movie idols; Theater and radio; Play at Union Theater; Wisconsin Players; Badger; Sports; Social events; Student government committees; Radical student political groups; Deans of men and women; President Clarence Dykstra; Student relationships with Madison merchants and citizens; Effect of WWII on campus; Employment; Quality of UW education.

First Interview Session (1984): 
Tape 1/Side 1
Time	Keywords

00:00:00	Name and address.

00:00:28	Came to UW as an undergraduate after graduating from Julia Richmond High School (all girls). 

00:01:26	Had applied to University of Michigan, Penn State, but decided on UW.

00:01:41	EL's sister a graduate of UW.  Her sister had chosen UW because their father admired the liberal tradition of the La Follettes.  EL's father died when she was ten years old.

00:02:18	EL wanted a co-ed school away from New York City.

00:03:06	Clothing she took to UW.  No phonograph.  Travelled by train to Chicago and Madison with a wardrobe trunk for belongings.

00:04:34	Choosing classes; first semester she planned to major in journalism, had Frank Fair as advisor.  Took courses in journalism, political science, English courses.  No freshman orientation.  Tested out of freshman English; tested out of foreign language requirement by taking French test.

00:05:12	Dropped journalism as major because EL decided she learned more about journalism from working on Cardinal and high school newspaper than from "book learning".

00:05:27	Took up political science as major, changed to American Institutions (new interdisciplinary major).

00:05:59	Selig Perlman as advisor.

00:06:12	EL never got to know professors from classes very well--a negative against UW.  EL's ambition to be foreign correspondent like Dorothy Thompson.

00:06:29	American Institutions would give a broad enough background to deal in international relations.

00:06:51	Clothing of students, professors.

00:07:06	Helen C. White and purple dresses.

00:07:13	Frederick Ogg and his suit. 

00:07:27	Lecture classes with not much class discussion, students were well-behaved, mostly co-ed classes. Army students.

00:08:19	Because there were so many women on campus, they were treated the same as male students.  Lectures had an average of one hundred students.

00:08:38	Graduate students gave quiz sessions; EL had no labs because she didn't take science, but she did take math.  Formal class structure.

00:09:13	Not much broad participation.

00:09:36	Students call professors "Professors" or "Doctor", professors called students "Mr." or "Miss".

00:10:07	Course expectations of students.

00:10:29	Frederick Ogg very particular in lecture style.

00:10:58	Homework, papers.

00:11:20	EL busy with Cardinal, only went to professors' office hours when she had problems with course or changing a course.

00:11:37	The Cardinal's board was only non-academic contact with professors or in interviews with professors.

00:11:57	Course grades.  EL had B+ average.  Both she and her mother valued good grades.

00: 12:38	Blue books for final exams.  Exam break.

00:12:53	EL's sorority had file of blue books, especially for things like economics quizzes.  Quizzes marked by graduate students who graded by presence of key words in essay questions.

00:13:40		EL doesn't remember much cribbing, she did read old exams.  Final grades mailed.

00:14:06	Most influenced by Frederick Burkhart, philosophy professor.  He was the first person to explain education as thinking and not memorization to her.  Professor Burkhart later became president of Bennington College.

00:14:54	Harold Taylor, philosophy instructor, on the Cardinal board.  EL had later contact with him at Sarah Lawrence where he was president.

00:15:09	Selig Perlman very intense, intellectual, thick Russian accent, made the subject alive.

00:15:35	Elizabeth Brandeis had a reputation for being odd; lively; EL enjoyed learning from her.

00:15:53	Merle Curti was an excellent teacher; social aspect of American History.

00:16:03	Martin Klotsche was Director of Summer Institute of World Affairs which EL attended; outstanding history teacher; elegant appearance; intellect (great) was obvious.

00:16:45	Sorority house: no other viable opportunities for out-of-state women except private Jewish rooming houses or Ann Emery, Landon Hall--not desirable to EL.  Congenial group at sorority, they controlled living conditions.

00:17:54	EL did live the first year at a Jewish rooming house with a roommate.  Second, third, and fourth year, EL lived at a sorority.

00:18:10	Sorority life: house mother, dinner, house rules, curfew (University rule).

00:19:25	EL exempted from curfew because of late hours at the Cardinal.

00:19:45	Leisure time.  Rathskeller.

00:20:11	Jewish students' activities: Chocolate Shoppe, concerts, football games, plays; not the "bratwurst place"; equal access to campus facilities.

00:20:41	Popular culture: Doesn't remember much about fads or hobbies of time.  Not much time for leisure reading.  Movie idols:  Walter Pidgeon, Greer Garson, Humphrey Bogart, Lauren Bacall (all were in Cardinal ads).  Movie theatres: Strand, Orpheum, Capitol.  More movie idols: Mickey Rooney, Pat O'Brien.  Radio shows: Hit Parade.  Listened to the news, music, live bands on the radio.

00:23:00	Attended plays at Memorial Union Theater, some plays had famous actors.  Avid theater goes in New York, EL was amazed at quality of productions.  Wisconsin Players were outstanding.

00:24:03	Other campus publication: The Badger.

00:24:14	Typical date: Different during the war.  Cardinal would print date lists ("guest lists") of sorority, fraternity and dorm dances.  Formal and informal (more frequent) dances.  Movie and Chocolate Shoppe or Rathskeller.  Attend a play.

00:26:05		EL very naive as a young woman; drank very little.  Started to smoke during the war, knew nothing about drugs, very little about sex.  She had very little discussion about college social life or politics with her mother.

00:26:56	She didn't participate in intra-mural sports; football was the major spectator sport: EL attended her first football game her first year at UW.  In football, UW was national power.  Basketball was much less popular. Willy Hersch was at UW. EL's freshman year; Big Ten.

00:27:41		Pat Harder (killed in WWII).  Attended football games in groups, rarely as dates.  Lots of school spirit at sporting events.

00:28:15	Major social events of the year.  EL was on working committee for senior prom.

00:29:02	EL didn't work during school year; had tried working at a defense plant but it took up too much time.

00:29:16	No religious participation.

00:29:25	She served on various student government committees.  Dropped student government when she became active executive for Cardinal.  Wasn't much participation by students in student government.

00:30:29	Women Students' Government election in 1944.

00:30:40	During 1940's there were radical political student groups on campus, EL wasn't associated with them, Cardinal columns were opened to these groups.

00:31:02	Scott Goodnight, dean of men.  Louise Troxell, dean of women.  Their roles were to be parent figures, enforce rules.  EL was close to Troxell, EL had continued contact with her after graduation. Troxell interested in women's participation in campus activities.

00:32:08	Emily Chervenik, assistant dean, guidance counselor, EL maintained contact with her after graduation.  Troxell and Chervenik were pioneers in women's roles on campus.

00:33:00	Clarence Dykstra, president: EL had contact with him when she was editor of the Cardinal.  Went to President's house on Christmas Day; Christmas carols.

00:33:25	Students had good relations with merchants and citizens of Madison during war.

00:34:01	Effect of war on campus: devastating effect--everything changed, closed down, students in uniform, heard about wounded or killed classmates.

00:34:39	Wartime: EL had increased personal opportunities at the Cardinal.  At the time of her graduation, the veterans were returning to campus.

00:35:15	John McNally, a serviceman, became editor of Cardinal.  EL favored Jane Weiselberg who was assistant editor.

00:35:45	EL's career goal was to become a journalist; went to Columbia Graduate School of Journalism after Madison.

00:35:56	Came back to Wisconsin after graduate school; applied at Milwaukee Journal but didn't get a job there.

00:36:10	EL's education prepared her for journalism career but she learned even more from her Cardinal experience, learned how to learn from education at UW.

00:36:52	EL learned from fellow students at UW; different backgrounds.

00:37:12	Worked at a daily newspaper in New Bedford, Massachusetts.  Worked at New York Times next, then Youth Forum.  EL lived in Paris for a year and a half.

00:37:32	Back in the states, she worked in public relations, then editor of a welfare and health newspaper.  Washington, D. C.: a writer for a public relations firm (health and education).

00:37:47	EL president of a woman-owned company, Information Services Incorporated.  Company deals in all forms of communication, particularly the written word.

00:38:07	Quality and scope of UW education was excellent.  Contrasts education of son and daughter at Columbia and Sarah Lawrence to hers at UW.

00:39:11	Cardinal work was exciting, unique, valuable. [Break in tape.] 

00:39:26	Early interest in Daily Cardinal. Other people who worked at the Cardinal. The Cardinal’s 50th Anniversary year coincided with Pearl Harbor.

00:40:49	Effects of World War II on the paper’s operations. The Cardinal decided to accept funding from the University to create a calendar of events. Advertisements. 

00:42:01	Reflections on her status as a Jewish woman from the East Coast while on the newspaper staff. Discussion of Cardinal members who were drafted.

00:43:33	First women editors of the Cardinal. 

00:44:01	EL’s appointment as editor in February 1944. She began a full term in April 1944. Freedom to write the editorials on any subject. Many related to war effort. 

00:47:03	The newspaper came out only four days a week during the war (Tuesday-Friday). They lacked an adequate number of typesetters. 	

00:47:50	More on editorials. No disputes over editorial content. The paper was not very radical. 

00:49:43	More reflections on her background and lack of concern around a woman serving as editor. EL was nominated for (and won) a University-wide service award. 

00:51:38	Most controversial were not war-related but political. 

00:53:03	Columns on post-war planning. Attempts to promote student participation in government. 

00:54:26	Guest columns of diverse viewpoints about war and peace. News coverage.

00:55:50	Perceptions of the Cardinal. It was well read. Discussion of cost and subscription rates. Support of faculty and administration. No contact with regents or alumni. 

00:58:16	When EL became editor, she wrote a column about the Cardinal’s independence. 

00:59:49	Less positive memories of sorority, Alpha Epsilon Phi. EL joined because her older sister had been a member. The new Elizabeth Waters Hall resulted in the subsequent emergence of private boarding houses that housed Jewish women from out of state.

01:02:45	Sororities as a way to live independently, devising own rule and hiring staff, etc. Ingeniousness of sorority cook during rationing. Phi Sigma Sigma other Jewish sorority, less popular. Other sororities did not accept Jews. 

01:03:47	Rush. No hazing. Initiation ceremony. Members went to the sorority house every Sunday night for Sunday dinner. EL recalled Selig Perelman visiting for dinner once. During dinner his son called to inform him that Pearl Harbor had been bombed. 

01:04:27	AEPhi participated in events with other sororities, but members went out with men from the Jewish fraternities. Members also very active on campus: committees, prom court, mortar board, editors, etc. Sorority encouraged good grades and campus participation. Gave her a sense of belonging. EL acted as a secretary. 

01:06:53	People did not scorn sororities then as they do now. 

01:07:59	EL’s column about complacency of people on home front during World War II. She was idealistic and feared the country would revert to isolationism after the war.

01:10:00	EL received a letter from a man in response to her column. It expressed his amazement at her ability to grasp the same questions men at the front line posed to themselves. He thanked her for showing how much she understood soldiers’ wants and expectations.  It made her day. 

01:11:26	End of interview. 

END